pieratsos wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

I am going to give my thoughts on why I think grim focus should NOT be changed.

A few days ago I was on my dual wield sorc and was dueling @Zendran who is an exceptional mageblade dueler. In my opinion, when faced with a very exceptional mageblade, beating that player on a magicka sorc is very hard. The reason being is that the magicka nightblade can maintain almost 100% uptime on pressure while the sorc has to constantly stack shields and spend minutes waiting for that small window to which the sorc can put some pressure back (DW sorc, but I feel this is true with staff sorc as well). When I do beat a good mageblade on my sorc, they will often tell me after the fight that they had over x million damage on me throughout the whole fight. There is more to it than that, such as a good player like @Zendran should and will never miss blocking a frag or dodging it because of things like siphoning attacks and being able to keep the pressure up, but this is the main thing. While some of this pressure is partly because of how strong valkyn is, it is mainly because of the way that the nightblade works in relation to sorc. The only time in the fight when the mageblade is not putting on pressure is when they have to reapply buffs. If grim focus was changed to what people have said earlier in this thread, part of that time of not having to rebuff up would be gone, in turn making the fight even harder for the sorc. I personally feel that magicka nightblade is one of if not the best dueling class in the game (#1 in my opinion but stam sorc can be good as well). While some may say that dueling doesn't matter, it has its effects on open world pvp too.

In another situation, I have dueled him on my stamblade as well. I focus on being as elusive as possible on my stamblade, so when @Zendran fights me he has to make those assassins wills count. 9 times out of 10 I will dodge it if he doesn't try to set it up correctly. If what people want grim focus to change to happens, then it won't even be a big deal if he misses one since he doesn't have to relive pressure to get another up.

While you may say that this perspective only has pvp in mind, balance should always be done with pvp in mind first. This is because the devs can balance pve in different ways such as changing the actual content, introducing sets that benefit specific classes more (Illabris, Soulshine, Spell Power Cure on a mageblade, etc.), changing what the skills actually do in pve (negate, ambush), the competitiveness of pvp, gear having more of an effect on dps than skill, and the fact that pve is the same thing over and over again making it easier while pvp is always different and involves fighting enemies that can reason.

So you are saying dont make any changes cause magblades are already good in duelling. The funny thing is that mDKs are demigods in duelling. That by itself should tell you how bad it is to balance around duelling. All classes are good in duelling. There is no class balance in duelling. There is always going to be someone that can counter ur build. It doesnt mean its balanced.

You totally missed the point. People have said where mageblades are weak (pve dps, a very small part of the game). I say where mageblades are strong (dueling, also a very small part of the game) and apparently that's not okay. My point was that there is a tradeoff to recasting the buff as opposed to doing something else and you have to make the proc count instead of just using it as soon as it's up.

Also, I don't know where this mdks are gods at dueling came from, but I don't agree. I don't think mdks are very good at dueling at all.

LeifErickson wrote: »

I am going to give my thoughts on why I think grim focus should NOT be changed.

A few days ago I was on my dual wield sorc and was dueling @Zendran who is an exceptional mageblade dueler. In my opinion, when faced with a very exceptional mageblade, beating that player on a magicka sorc is very hard.

Agreed Lief. Mageblade is the single toughest opponent for a sorcerer, and possibly the toughest match up in the game , exactly for the reason you cited. Its 100% offense vs 100% defense for most of the fight, and a duel between equally skilled and built opponents will end in a stall at best or the sorc will eventually die. If grim focus were changed in the way that is being suggested, it would be nigh impossible to win that match up for a sorcerer. That being said, I also sympathize with the concerns that the skill is not very accessible to most mageblades and its full potential goes under utilized for all but the very best. Thats probably not great design either. Maybe there is a middle of the road solution?

While I agree that the game should be balanced around PvP first as the human element will always be more dynamic than that of computers, I don't think the game should be evenly balanced around duels in every matchup. Rock, paper, scissors and all that. All that being said, I'm very curious to see if maybe the new pet builds and haunting curse next patch will open up some possibilities to counter mageblade as a sorc.

CyrusArya wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

I am going to give my thoughts on why I think grim focus should NOT be changed.

A few days ago I was on my dual wield sorc and was dueling @Zendran who is an exceptional mageblade dueler. In my opinion, when faced with a very exceptional mageblade, beating that player on a magicka sorc is very hard.

Agreed Lief. Mageblade is the single toughest opponent for a sorcerer, and possibly the toughest match up in the game , exactly for the reason you cited. Its 100% offense vs 100% defense for most of the fight, and a duel between equally skilled and built opponents will end in a stall at best or the sorc will eventually die. If grim focus were changed in the way that is being suggested, it would be nigh impossible to win that match up for a sorcerer. That being said, I also sympathize with the concerns that the skill is not very accessible to most mageblades and its full potential goes under utilized for all but the very best. Thats probably not great design either. Maybe there is a middle of the road solution?

While I agree that the game should be balanced around PvP first as the human element will always be more dynamic than that of computers, I don't think the game should be evenly balanced around duels in every matchup. Rock, paper, scissors and all that. All that being said, I'm very curious to see if maybe the new pet builds and haunting curse next patch will open up some possibilities to counter mageblade as a sorc.

I agree. I like that dueling has counters. I gave the example not because it countered my build, but because I wanted to use it to illustrate my point. Sadly, not everyone seems to be able to see that. People bring up that mageblades are bad in pve dps. Okay great. I bring up that mageblades are good in dueling. Great. However, for some reason it seems that pve dps is more important than dueling or that "you can't balance dueling" (because you can balance pve dps?) or "that dueling is just a small part of the game and doesn't take account open world" (because pve dps accounts for more than pve dps?).

LiquidPony wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote:

While you may say that this perspective only has pvp in mind, balance should always be done with pvp in mind first. This is because the devs can balance pve in different ways such as changing the actual content, introducing sets that benefit specific classes more (Illabris, Soulshine, Spell Power Cure on a mageblade, etc.), changing what the skills actually do in pve (negate, ambush), the competitiveness of pvp, gear having more of an effect on dps than skill, and the fact that pve is the same thing over and over again making it easier while pvp is always different and involves fighting enemies that can reason.

@LeifErickson this strikes me is a load of hogwash.

I'd wager that you think PvP should be the primary focus of balance because you primarily play PvP. It's based on self-interest, not reason.

Same goes for your ridiculous assessment of PvP vs. PvE. They are vastly different end-games that require different skill-sets. One is not "easier" than the other in a general sense. Do you even play end-game PvE? Do you know how many hundreds of hours guilds spend perfecting group composition and DPS rotations and strategies and tactics to get leaderboard times in Trials? It took over 5 months before the first guild was able to complete vMoL HM.

LeifErickson wrote:

People have said where mageblades are weak (pve dps, a very small part of the game)

You think PvE DPS is a "very small part of the game?"

Yes but it is the same thing over and over again. So that guild that took 5 months to clear that trial has done it so many times now that they can do it easily. It is easy for them because it is the same content over and over. It never changes. They can use the same strategy they used last time. Because how much they practiced, they know how to do what they need to do almost subconsciously, which I would say means it is easy.

I use to do pve. I don't do it anymore because I got bored and didn't like how I had to have this gear set and that weapon with this amount of cp and that amount of gold mats. I have cleared every single pve content in the game except vMoL HM and vAA HM. Only reason I don't have those complete is because I have never attempted them and never joined a guild that was attempting them. I was one of the first few stamblades NA PC to clear vMA flawlessly and I started the flawless run before I even had 400 cp. This was back in Thieves Guild POST stamblade nerfs (siphoning attacks) before you could one shot everything in there with proc sets and before it got nerfed.

I said pve dps is a small part of the game because I was making the comparison of that to dueling. What I meant was that if we are going to buff something, than dueling (because plenty of 1v1s do happen in open world pvp believe it or not that can be crucial to a fight) should be consider at least as equally as pve dps.

pieratsos wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote:

While you may say that this perspective only has pvp in mind, balance should always be done with pvp in mind first. This is because the devs can balance pve in different ways such as changing the actual content, introducing sets that benefit specific classes more (Illabris, Soulshine, Spell Power Cure on a mageblade, etc.), changing what the skills actually do in pve (negate, ambush), the competitiveness of pvp, gear having more of an effect on dps than skill, and the fact that pve is the same thing over and over again making it easier while pvp is always different and involves fighting enemies that can reason.

@LeifErickson this strikes me is a load of hogwash.

I'd wager that you think PvP should be the primary focus of balance because you primarily play PvP. It's based on self-interest, not reason.

Same goes for your ridiculous assessment of PvP vs. PvE. They are vastly different end-games that require different skill-sets. One is not "easier" than the other in a general sense. Do you even play end-game PvE? Do you know how many hundreds of hours guilds spend perfecting group composition and DPS rotations and strategies and tactics to get leaderboard times in Trials? It took over 5 months before the first guild was able to complete vMoL HM.

LeifErickson wrote:

People have said where mageblades are weak (pve dps, a very small part of the game)

You think PvE DPS is a "very small part of the game?"

Yes but it is the same thing over and over again. So that guild that took 5 months to clear that trial has done it so many times now that they can do it easily. It is easy for them because it is the same content over and over. It never changes. They can use the same strategy they used last time. Because how much they practiced, they know how to do what they need to do almost subconsciously, which I would say means it is easy.

I use to do pve. I don't do it anymore because I got bored and didn't like how I had to have this gear set and that weapon with this amount of cp and that amount of gold mats. I have cleared every single pve content in the game except vMoL HM and vAA HM. Only reason I don't have those complete is because I have never attempted them and never joined a guild that was attempting them. I was one of the first few stamblades NA PC to clear vMA flawlessly and I started the flawless run before I even had 400 cp. This was back in Thieves Guild POST stamblade nerfs (siphoning attacks) before you could one shot everything in there with proc sets and before it got nerfed.

I said pve dps is a small part of the game because I was making the comparison of that to dueling. What I meant was that if we are going to buff something, than dueling (because plenty of 1v1s do happen in open world pvp believe it or not that can be crucial to a fight) should be consider at least as equally as pve dps.

Even tho i find PVE boring and i dont really care how much DPS can magblades pull, you cant compare it with duelling. Its not about whether it is a minority or not in the game. If magblades are not pulling enough dmg in PVE then the class is underperforming. There is really no doubt about that. If magblades can kill or die in duels it doesnt mean that they are overperforming or underperforming because of counters. Thats the difference. And open world 1v1 is not the same as a duel. You use different abilities, cp layout etc in duels. In open world u are just running ur open world setup. And magblade vs sorc is actually the perfect example. In a duel u can cc a sorc with flame reach from range to follow with assassins will. In open world u will most likely have fear on ur bar and not flame reach. Its not gonna be that simple to get through sorc mines.

He isn't comparing them to each other directly. He's pointing out that PvE dps parses are the building blocks of larger scale PvE content in the same way that duels are the building blocks of larger scale PvP content.

Self-buffed 1vBoss dps parses are built upon by adding a tank to hold the boss, then a healer to heal the tank, then some buffs to more closely replicate a group trial environment. Most testing for 12 man trial builds occurs in 1-4 man dps tests. Not all, but these are further building blocks working up to full trial dungeon groups. And trial group members often wear different sets than an individual player would wear for a min/maxed self-buffed parse, bringing utility to the group as a whole.

PvP groups and conflicts scale up from smaller scale building blocks in exactly the same way, distilling all the way down to the duel.

So, assuming PvE and PvP should be held equally important in major class mechanic balance discussions -- I believe they should -- to say that duels are irrelevant to balance is to say that dps parses are irrelevant as well. Most people in this thread and others are basing their arguments for changing Grim Focus on dps parse values.

That's the premise of his original point. His point was that the proposed change to make Grim Focus refresh on proc would make many PvP scenarios tilted heavily in the mageblade's favor, where the recast mechanic currently acts as an interruption in tempo to balance them. He simply used a duel as the simplest example on hand to illustrate this.

I'm a mageblade main, and I am vehemently against this change because I know better than anyone just how OP this would be.

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I am very disappointed by this thread. I was expecting more on the MASSIVE BUFFS the title promised. Instead I got 5 pages of arguing over something that wasn't even changed. I'm sad on the inside.

<hugs>

Lol, so many mention notifications.

Personally, I can see both sides to this. The problem is that magblade is a class that requires a lot of micromanagement and a lot of people don't enjoy or simply can't get the hang of that. I get it, it's not everyone's cup of tea. Problem is (and while I do see a bit of appeal in being buffed into god status), I am a bit concerned about the ramifications of certain types of merciless changes. I've mentioned this in a different thread, but...

1. The 4 light attack requirement should not be changed. For people who know what they're doing, it is not an issue at all and a timer would reduce amounts of will procs that could be used (for example, I can have someone dead on the ground with a burst rotation that includes a will cast in the first 3 seconds or so of a fight). Plus, I don't think a ridiculously strong nuke (can hit 16k on light armor targets on a LOW spell damage build) should be something that can proc with no player input. ALSO, I WANT TO MENTION: I KEEP SEEING PEOPLE SAY THE LIGHT ATTACKS ARE A PROBLEM BECAUSE THEY CAN BE DODGED AND THIS CAUSES WILL NOT TO PROC; IT DOES NOT MATTER. IT STILL PROCS EVEN IF THEY GET DODGED. DO THE TESTING AND SEE FOR YOURSELF. THIS HAS BEEN VERIFIED.

2. I think that having the ability to proc multiple will casts off of one merciless buff would eventually lead to the nerfing of will in some way or another, so it's something I'm not sure I'm a fan of. You have to keep in mind that currently, shooting the bow itself costs no magicka and so if you could shoot multiple bows from one cast of merciless, the nerfhammer would be sure to follow in some form.

3. Similarly, I am also concerned that having an auto-recast on will cast would mean that the shot itself would no longer be a free cast, which could in certain situations be a drawback (when low on magicka). This is not a terrible drawback but, as has been mentioned in this thread, this could protentially be an overbuff for PvP as, personally, the rebuff period is the only time when my pressure goes away for a small period. And anyone who has fought me can attest to the fact that magblade damage can be a bit insane.

4. It should not be an auto-cast (of the bow shot) because while that may be good for PvE, it would be a massive (repeat, MASSIVE) nerf to magblades in PvP since burst is made from chaining will casts with other attacks within a split second.

Unfortunately, I don't have any real answers that give a balanced buff to both PvP and PvE at the same time for the moment.. Just sharing some of my reasoning on why this issue might be a bit more nuanced than people immediately think.

@Zendran I've explained these mechanics, but it's all fallen on deaf ears. These guys have little appreciation for balance with PvP mechanics in mind.

LiquidPony wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I am very disappointed by this thread. I was expecting more on the MASSIVE BUFFS the title promised. Instead I got 5 pages of arguing over something that wasn't even changed. I'm sad on the inside.

Well, yeah, it's a shitpost. What did you expect? No one legitimately thinks magblades got "MASSIVE BUFFS" this patch. It's a clickbait title meant to set the stage for a condescending, self-aggrandizing diatribe.

It's a genuine thank you post to ZOS for surgical buffs among a sudden storm of awful ideas from other nightblades on this forum.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Coming from a long-time PvE and PvP mageblade with vMoL completed forever ago, parsing 45k dps with purple gear and using Refreshing Path at the time, and nearly 183 days /played on my main character.

People are whining way too much right now, fixated on the Strife cost increase and overlooking so many wonderful changes. So far you've given us attempted QoL fixes on cloak and shade for PvP, dps buffs to path for PvE, slight changes to Manifestation of Terror (more still needed), and 8% bonus single target or aoe damage dealt by wielding a fire or lightning staff.

I have noticed that staff change has been overlooked by all the mageblade whining, but it's the single biggest change for the class this patch.

Yes, the other classes will benefit from it as well, but it's a huge help to us.

Thank you specifically for not fundamentally changing Grim Focus's casting mechanics like this vocal minority is calling for, but instead tuning up dps through Path. Wise move.

I see the big picture here, from an informed and experienced perspective. Strife was cheap. The change leaves me scratching my head, but it will be inconsequential in the end. The rest of these changes have been well-placed. I hope you keep up the positive effort.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Now for a damage threshold before the Agony cc breaks so that dots don't immediately break it, an aoe PvP oriented synergy for Consuming Darkness, and further reworks to Manifestation of Terror and Soul Siphon.

This makes no sense.

Staff buffs do not benefit Mablades any more than they do Magsorcs or Magplars or MagDKs. The Major Force nerf hurts NBs more than it does Sorcs or DKs.

Providing a buff to all Magicka users via staff changes may benefit Magblades but it does not buff them in relation to other Magicka builds. Magblade still remains the worst Magicka DPS class in PvE. No one brings Nightblades raiding and that isn't going to change with this patch.

And it doesn't look to me like a "vocal minority" calling for Grim Focus changes. In fact, I see the majority of people commenting on NB threads agreeing that the ability could use some fresh thinking, including quite a few well-known end-gamers. Same story on Reddit and other ESO communities. I suspect that you refer to it as a "vocal minority" because you want to marginalize opinions that don't align with your own.

Looks to me like you're making a dog and pony show of kissing ZOS's ass in order to justify your contrarian opinions. You are the vocal minority, not the other way 'round.

And then you've got the nerve to try to *** on @Gilliamtherogue and his contributions to the community. Oy vey. This is a troll shitpost if I've ever seen one.

Feel free to offer a solid counterargument to my points instead of more fluff. Thanks.

Fact is no one has provided a logical reason to why Grim Focus in particular needs to be fundamentally altered instead of having higher dps parse values brought into the kit elsewhere.

And it's true that Gil is a prominent PvEer because he crunches numbers exceptionally well, pulls high dps with his builds, and points the rest of the PvE community in the right direction to achieve min/maxed dps with all classes. That is entirely unrelated to class combat mechanics related to PvP.

That is an objective fact. Cheers.

Reasons to remove the recast in Grim Focus to have unlimited use during the duration:

-) Combat in both pve and pvp will be working smoother as you free up time
-) The skill is extremely underperforming in pve as the damage gets effictively cut in half during recast
-) In pvp against any competent player your burst only comes from timing your Grim Focus with an ult, this change would put more pressure on your opponent till your ult is back up.
-) It does nothing except do damage thats easier to predict and dodge than even frag which already is *** obvious. For that it already has harder condition than any other burst skills around so this change wouldnt overbuff.

I´d argue that the uniqueness comes from the way its proccd not from the recast so this wouldnt be "fundamentally altering" it.

My proposition would be refresh the bow proc after shooting for the whole duration and instead make it shoot after 5 light attacks to make it not possible to cast it more often. The only thing that would change is free up one global for doing something else in pvp and boost dps in pve without hurting any side.

It would be a frag with a 25% proc chance, normalizing performance for rng for the sake of argument.

The 4 light attack model is identical to frag, taking rnb out of the equation. The proc would fire as every fourth ability.

You're literally saying you want it to be easier and less unique. Combat doesn't need to have freed up time. Spending time on Grim Focus is important. It doesn't need to be less predictable in PvP. It hits like a truck. We should have to work to make it land. And mageblade already has a ton of sustained pressure. The moment of relieved pressure when recasting this is important.

Just my perspective on it. If you people want to dumb down this class, then *** it, I give up. Make the game a *** carebear RP mmo. I don't care anymore. Sorry for enjoying class diversity and mechanical challenge.

LoL K.

You asked for reasons I gave you 4. If you can´t live with that hf.

Sorry I broke your argument down so easily?

Okay.

As you love to compare Grim Focus with Frags.

Now Grim Focus is a Frag with 20% "proc chance" ~20% more damage, no stun, and needs an extra cast to even work once.
After the change its a frag with 20% "proc chanc" ~20% more damage, no stun and needs to be cast an additional time ever 20 sec.

Being unique doesn´t mean its good. Obsidian shard is also unique (ranged knockdown with heal) and still utter ***.
Focus is too clunky for pve and does deserve a change for pvp too simple as that.

You asked for reasons, you got them. You made a point why it shouldn´t get changed, you got reasons why that is bs.
Give better arguments other than I want it to be unique then lets talk again.

It's not a 20% proc chance frag. Pay attention closely.

After the change, Grim Focus will proc after 4 light attacks.
Frag procs after 3 ability casts.
How many ability casts are contained between 4 light attack weaves?
3.
Grim Focus proc is your 4th ability cast if you shoot it after that 4th light attack weave, right as it procs.
And frag is your 4th ability cast on average if it procs on every 3rd ability cast, following its proc chance.

If the proposed change goes through, the play patterns in practice of both abilities will be identical. Frag will just deal slightly less damage and apply a cc.

And in PvP, Obsidian Shard is actually pretty good now. One of my guildies has hit 9k heals with the heal morph as a Dark Elf with an average PvP build (not stacking bonus healing). Another routinely nukes the crap out of people with the damage morph. That ability was buffed somewhat recently. You should actually test it before writing it off as bad based on stigma from before the buffs.

Thanks for confirming that you just read the first line of my comment and didn´t even bother to even gaze over it.

Why try and constructively discuss with such a person?

But...I responded to each of your points line by line.

You used half the comment on trying to make me look like a *** with that 25%. If you had actually read through my comments you would have seen that my idea was in order to not buff the uptime of grimfocus change the number of las needed to 5.

xblackroxe wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Coming from a long-time PvE and PvP mageblade with vMoL completed forever ago, parsing 45k dps with purple gear and using Refreshing Path at the time, and nearly 183 days /played on my main character.

People are whining way too much right now, fixated on the Strife cost increase and overlooking so many wonderful changes. So far you've given us attempted QoL fixes on cloak and shade for PvP, dps buffs to path for PvE, slight changes to Manifestation of Terror (more still needed), and 8% bonus single target or aoe damage dealt by wielding a fire or lightning staff.

I have noticed that staff change has been overlooked by all the mageblade whining, but it's the single biggest change for the class this patch.

Yes, the other classes will benefit from it as well, but it's a huge help to us.

Thank you specifically for not fundamentally changing Grim Focus's casting mechanics like this vocal minority is calling for, but instead tuning up dps through Path. Wise move.

I see the big picture here, from an informed and experienced perspective. Strife was cheap. The change leaves me scratching my head, but it will be inconsequential in the end. The rest of these changes have been well-placed. I hope you keep up the positive effort.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Now for a damage threshold before the Agony cc breaks so that dots don't immediately break it, an aoe PvP oriented synergy for Consuming Darkness, and further reworks to Manifestation of Terror and Soul Siphon.

This makes no sense.

Staff buffs do not benefit Mablades any more than they do Magsorcs or Magplars or MagDKs. The Major Force nerf hurts NBs more than it does Sorcs or DKs.

Providing a buff to all Magicka users via staff changes may benefit Magblades but it does not buff them in relation to other Magicka builds. Magblade still remains the worst Magicka DPS class in PvE. No one brings Nightblades raiding and that isn't going to change with this patch.

And it doesn't look to me like a "vocal minority" calling for Grim Focus changes. In fact, I see the majority of people commenting on NB threads agreeing that the ability could use some fresh thinking, including quite a few well-known end-gamers. Same story on Reddit and other ESO communities. I suspect that you refer to it as a "vocal minority" because you want to marginalize opinions that don't align with your own.

Looks to me like you're making a dog and pony show of kissing ZOS's ass in order to justify your contrarian opinions. You are the vocal minority, not the other way 'round.

And then you've got the nerve to try to *** on @Gilliamtherogue and his contributions to the community. Oy vey. This is a troll shitpost if I've ever seen one.

Feel free to offer a solid counterargument to my points instead of more fluff. Thanks.

Fact is no one has provided a logical reason to why Grim Focus in particular needs to be fundamentally altered instead of having higher dps parse values brought into the kit elsewhere.

And it's true that Gil is a prominent PvEer because he crunches numbers exceptionally well, pulls high dps with his builds, and points the rest of the PvE community in the right direction to achieve min/maxed dps with all classes. That is entirely unrelated to class combat mechanics related to PvP.

That is an objective fact. Cheers.

Reasons to remove the recast in Grim Focus to have unlimited use during the duration:

-) Combat in both pve and pvp will be working smoother as you free up time
-) The skill is extremely underperforming in pve as the damage gets effictively cut in half during recast
-) In pvp against any competent player your burst only comes from timing your Grim Focus with an ult, this change would put more pressure on your opponent till your ult is back up.
-) It does nothing except do damage thats easier to predict and dodge than even frag which already is *** obvious. For that it already has harder condition than any other burst skills around so this change wouldnt overbuff.

I´d argue that the uniqueness comes from the way its proccd not from the recast so this wouldnt be "fundamentally altering" it.

My proposition would be refresh the bow proc after shooting for the whole duration and instead make it shoot after 5 light attacks to make it not possible to cast it more often. The only thing that would change is free up one global for doing something else in pvp and boost dps in pve without hurting any side.

It would be a frag with a 25% proc chance, normalizing performance for rng for the sake of argument.

The 4 light attack model is identical to frag, taking rnb out of the equation. The proc would fire as every fourth ability.

You're literally saying you want it to be easier and less unique. Combat doesn't need to have freed up time. Spending time on Grim Focus is important. It doesn't need to be less predictable in PvP. It hits like a truck. We should have to work to make it land. And mageblade already has a ton of sustained pressure. The moment of relieved pressure when recasting this is important.

Just my perspective on it. If you people want to dumb down this class, then *** it, I give up. Make the game a *** carebear RP mmo. I don't care anymore. Sorry for enjoying class diversity and mechanical challenge.

LoL K.

You asked for reasons I gave you 4. If you can´t live with that hf.

Sorry I broke your argument down so easily?

Okay.

As you love to compare Grim Focus with Frags.

Now Grim Focus is a Frag with 20% "proc chance" ~20% more damage, no stun, and needs an extra cast to even work once.
After the change its a frag with 20% "proc chanc" ~20% more damage, no stun and needs to be cast an additional time ever 20 sec.

Being unique doesn´t mean its good. Obsidian shard is also unique (ranged knockdown with heal) and still utter ***.
Focus is too clunky for pve and does deserve a change for pvp too simple as that.

You asked for reasons, you got them. You made a point why it shouldn´t get changed, you got reasons why that is bs.
Give better arguments other than I want it to be unique then lets talk again.

It's not a 20% proc chance frag. Pay attention closely.

After the change, Grim Focus will proc after 4 light attacks.
Frag procs after 3 ability casts.
How many ability casts are contained between 4 light attack weaves?
3.
Grim Focus proc is your 4th ability cast if you shoot it after that 4th light attack weave, right as it procs.
And frag is your 4th ability cast on average if it procs on every 3rd ability cast, following its proc chance.

If the proposed change goes through, the play patterns in practice of both abilities will be identical. Frag will just deal slightly less damage and apply a cc.

And in PvP, Obsidian Shard is actually pretty good now. One of my guildies has hit 9k heals with the heal morph as a Dark Elf with an average PvP build (not stacking bonus healing). Another routinely nukes the crap out of people with the damage morph. That ability was buffed somewhat recently. You should actually test it before writing it off as bad based on stigma from before the buffs.

Thanks for confirming that you just read the first line of my comment and didn´t even bother to even gaze over it.

Why try and constructively discuss with such a person?

But...I responded to each of your points line by line.

You used half the comment on trying to make me look like a *** with that 25%. If you had actually read through my comments you would have seen that my idea was in order to not buff the uptime of grimfocus change the number of las needed to 5.

I addressed your 5 light attack suggestion in my comment before that one. Look up in the quotes.

In the one where you did the percentage comparisons, you weren't talking about that model (or at least you didn't provide a transition). If you were, you'd have called it a frag with a 25% proc chance because there are 4 ability casts between 5 light attack weaves. Instead, you called it a frag with a 20% proc chance on live and after the change.

It looked to me like you were attempting to compare frags to Grim Focus if it refreshed after proccing and kept the 4 light attack proc model, but you got your numbers wrong. My impression now is that you were actually comparing it to the 5 light attack proc model, but you still got your numbers wrong.

Sorry if I am misunderstanding you, but it's just not clear what you're trying to say other than that you want the skill to be easier to use and that its unique mechanic is the method with which it is procced (light attacks), both of which you stated in your post with the bullets. The first I disagree with on principle, and the second is just plain false for reasons I explained. In practice, light attack weaves = ability casts + 1. They happen concurrently if you're weaving appropriately and can therefore be ruled out of the comparison altogether.

Grim Focus' unique mechanic is the fact that it requires you to recast the ability to gain another proc, pausing your rotation or tempo for one global cooldown. You basically invest that global cooldown into getting a big nuke a few seconds later.

Please elaborate if you meant something different.

MMOs are not where you go for competitive gaming. Insisting that there is competitive gaming and that balance changes should take competitive gaming into account is disregarding what ESO actually is. A casual MMO.

To all the people trying to come up with solutions for Grim Focus with only PvE in mind (auto-recast on spectral bow): GTFO. Even in PvE it will be far too strong with the proper buffs. 65k+ Assassin's Wills are not uncommon, having that every 5 seconds is stupidly strong. This will lead to a damage nerf and at that point everyone will be mad.

To all the people arguing about balance of Grim Focus and saying PvE doesn't matter: GTFO. Its part of the game, its just as important as PvP.

So far, none of the proposed solutions even come close to what a balanced Grim Focus would be. The mechanic is absolute *** but it is essential to not making magNBs OP. So only a complete overhaul of the skill would solve the issue.

I used to think that an auto recast would be perfect, then I decided to mess with some DPS numbers...