Just 2 weeks ago....I finally got my 2nd Moondancer Sharpened sword....that is like 9 months of straight raiding Maw of Lorkhaj......a lot........a lot of raids...mkay
Good luck farming
I also do think magplars got the biggest hit this update....
Yeah the problem for mag Templars is that they got the execute nerfed (approx 5% dmg loss) and they don't profit a lot from the new staff passives because they were played with a dual wield mainbar. Now it looks like they will just put jabs on the staff bar and the rest stays the same. A lightning staff would be the best because basically everything they do is aoe but with the TBS nerf they most likely have to run BSW so we have to see what uptimes are possible with a lightning staff.
The buff to purifiying light is actually pretty good on the other side. Should bring back like 1-1.5k DPS.SublimeSparo wrote: »Ugh pretty much what i predicted. Hate kena, especially now you can't put siphon and ele drain up together, is it even viable with just minor magicka steal and orbs? And ever since they changed animation priorities weaving is clunky af at the best of times making me think uptime won't be great either. Think i'll just take the dps loss tbh.
Is the tl;dr regarding sets-
DK 5 bsw 4 aether 2 kena/ groth 1 vma
Sorc 5 bsw 4 moondancer 2 kena/llambris 1 vma
Templar 5 bsw 5 moondancer 2 groth/kena 1 vma
Or did i missread
Yeah that's about right. There are some interesting alternative setups if you don't want to run Kena.
DKs can also run with 5 Moondancer (3 jewels, 1 Body, Backbar), 5 BSW, 1 Kena, 1vMA frontbar. Even with the loss of 2% max magicka from undaunted this setup can outperform the 2 Kena setup if you reach higher uptimes on the buffs (Moondancer vs Kena).
Templars and NBs will have the hardest time keeping BSW up long enough but you need less than 50% in order to loose the BIS title to Julianos. That means you have 4 seconds to proc it with a 20% chance on every fire dmg.
While NBs could also go with scathing mage, templars can't because of the long execute phase.
hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »Just 2 weeks ago....I finally got my 2nd Moondancer Sharpened sword....that is like 9 months of straight raiding Maw of Lorkhaj......a lot........a lot of raids...mkay
Good luck farming
I also do think magplars got the biggest hit this update....
Yeah the problem for mag Templars is that they got the execute nerfed (approx 5% dmg loss) and they don't profit a lot from the new staff passives because they were played with a dual wield mainbar. Now it looks like they will just put jabs on the staff bar and the rest stays the same. A lightning staff would be the best because basically everything they do is aoe but with the TBS nerf they most likely have to run BSW so we have to see what uptimes are possible with a lightning staff.
The buff to purifiying light is actually pretty good on the other side. Should bring back like 1-1.5k DPS.SublimeSparo wrote: »Ugh pretty much what i predicted. Hate kena, especially now you can't put siphon and ele drain up together, is it even viable with just minor magicka steal and orbs? And ever since they changed animation priorities weaving is clunky af at the best of times making me think uptime won't be great either. Think i'll just take the dps loss tbh.
Is the tl;dr regarding sets-
DK 5 bsw 4 aether 2 kena/ groth 1 vma
Sorc 5 bsw 4 moondancer 2 kena/llambris 1 vma
Templar 5 bsw 5 moondancer 2 groth/kena 1 vma
Or did i missread
Yeah that's about right. There are some interesting alternative setups if you don't want to run Kena.
DKs can also run with 5 Moondancer (3 jewels, 1 Body, Backbar), 5 BSW, 1 Kena, 1vMA frontbar. Even with the loss of 2% max magicka from undaunted this setup can outperform the 2 Kena setup if you reach higher uptimes on the buffs (Moondancer vs Kena).
Templars and NBs will have the hardest time keeping BSW up long enough but you need less than 50% in order to loose the BIS title to Julianos. That means you have 4 seconds to proc it with a 20% chance on every fire dmg.
While NBs could also go with scathing mage, templars can't because of the long execute phase.
Actually seords mainbar is still the way to go. The only debate is whether to go lightning or fire back bar...im keeping fire...https://imgur.com/gallery/e6DDO
3) Leading on from 2 (this is a bit of a personal request!) - I don't have IA on PC, so when you get a character copy could you try to find out the interaction between:
Staff +8% passives; Minor Slayer; Minor Berserk; DW +5% passive
Specifically whether they are all truly additive (which it seems is how you've treated them in your SUMPRODUCT, and which I expect them to be) or whether there is some unusual multiplicative mechanism here. (I have some feeling that it was once the case that the DW passive was multiplicative with Minor Berserk - but I could be wrong)
I mainly ask this because additive bonuses here reduce the power of Minor Slayer and in turn reduces the power of IA vs Willpower - in fact, I have WP outperforming IA in my calculations if they are additive.
That's why it's called "theory-crafting" ...anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Back when weapons ultis reached PTS, everyone was worried about how weak the destro ulti was (spreadsheets and calculations and everything as a proof). ZOS changed the duration to make it more bursty and people still said the ulti was weaker than meteor. Next thing we knew once it was on live : everybody acclaimed the destro ulti for being so OP. What happened then ?
Hi @GilGalad !
1) I can't see that you've accounted for the action of Thaumaturge CP on sets like Grothdarr - though I may just have not found it. It makes it hard to get a meaningful comparison between Kena & Groth, especially when they remain pretty close in terms of DPS contributions.
2) It's definitely worth adding Minor Berserk into the calculations, as this has high uptime in end-game PvE from both Relentless (NBs) & Combat Prayer (Healers)
You are right that I treated them additively, what makes sense for the staff and DW passives since they will never be active at the same time, but will most likely be wrong with minor slayer. I will adjust the spreadsheet once I have the gear on the PTS to do some testings.3) Leading on from 2 (this is a bit of a personal request!) - I don't have IA on PC, so when you get a character copy could you try to find out the interaction between:
Staff +8% passives; Minor Slayer; Minor Berserk; DW +5% passive
Specifically whether they are all truly additive (which it seems is how you've treated them in your SUMPRODUCT, and which I expect them to be) or whether there is some unusual multiplicative mechanism here. (I have some feeling that it was once the case that the DW passive was multiplicative with Minor Berserk - but I could be wrong)
I mainly ask this because additive bonuses here reduce the power of Minor Slayer and in turn reduces the power of IA vs Willpower - in fact, I have WP outperforming IA in my calculations if they are additive.
4) Bonus test: are the above passives additive or multiplicative with execute bonuses? Given that the execute bonus typically fits into the base damage calculation pre-modifier, I would expect it to be multiplicative - but you never know with ZoS. I can test this myself on PTS, but it'd be nice to have a second person test, too!
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I'm one of those 9 people who don't get it. Maybe I would if I tried harder. But there's something else I don't understand.
Back when weapons ultis reached PTS, everyone was worried about how weak the destro ulti was (spreadsheets and calculations and everything as a proof). ZOS changed the duration to make it more bursty and people still said the ulti was weaker than meteor. Next thing we knew once it was on live : everybody acclaimed the destro ulti for being so OP. What happened then ?
For those who may wonder what this has to do with the current topic : I'm generally wondering if there aren't any "hidden" thing in ZOS' calculations that invalidates - some of - our own, retro-engineered calculations ?
I only have 1 other setup in mind with Double Destro. Moondancer full on backbar to activate synergy (tho we all know activating synergies can be annoying...) and then use burning spellweave staff, that way we still can run a full monster set. Quesstion is more then how is the uptime of Burning spellweave.
I only have 1 other setup in mind with Double Destro. Moondancer full on backbar to activate synergy (tho we all know activating synergies can be annoying...) and then use burning spellweave staff, that way we still can run a full monster set. Quesstion is more then how is the uptime of Burning spellweave.
That setup sounds great imo, but getting that burning spellweave-staff will be annoying
edit says: you would need a spellweave lightning-staff for sweeps and dots, but execute should be on moondancer bar...so no bsw-proccs during execute. Hm...kinda hard to decide
@GilGalad I will do some tests yes. i also do think Moondancer setup will be BiS still. Howevver other setups definitely come closer now.
If we are wearing burning spellweave, then a fire staff is prolly the most optimal setup on the backbar.
If we are not using burning spellweave, then a shockstaff might be better, also helps with off balancing enemies + easymode shock heavy attacks for insanse aoe dmg
I only have 1 other setup in mind with Double Destro. Moondancer full on backbar to activate synergy (tho we all know activating synergies can be annoying...) and then use burning spellweave staff, that way we still can run a full monster set. Quesstion is more then how is the uptime of Burning spellweave.
hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »@GilGalad I will do some tests yes. i also do think Moondancer setup will be BiS still. Howevver other setups definitely come closer now.
If we are wearing burning spellweave, then a fire staff is prolly the most optimal setup on the backbar.
If we are not using burning spellweave, then a shockstaff might be better, also helps with off balancing enemies + easymode shock heavy attacks for insanse aoe dmg
I only have 1 other setup in mind with Double Destro. Moondancer full on backbar to activate synergy (tho we all know activating synergies can be annoying...) and then use burning spellweave staff, that way we still can run a full monster set. Quesstion is more then how is the uptime of Burning spellweave.
I have the gear to run this double destro setup but the sunergy issues are horrible. Getting a synergy and barswapping makes the synergy prompt go away
hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »From what im seeing lightning/DW will give you the highest parses, but fire/DW will give you the highest single target dps
Some fun facts in between:
This thread is now online since 48 hours. Withing the first 24 hours the title was "Homestead Theorycrafting & Feedback" and it got 50 views and 0 replies. After changing the title to "9 out of 10 ESO players won't understand what's happening in here!!!" it got 1.8k views and 44 replies in 24 hours.
So shall I change the title back now or to "9 out of 10 ESO developers won't understand what's happening in here!!!" in order to get a ZOS response?
What do you think?
MLGProPlayer wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »From what im seeing lightning/DW will give you the highest parses, but fire/DW will give you the highest single target dps
Will flame staff outperform DW for execute damage? If not, then is the only reason we slot flame staff to proc BSW? And if that's the case, does lightning staff/DW + another set possibly enter the equation or would the DPS loss from losing BSW be too high?
Templar definitely seems to benefit the least from the destro changes. I feel we have too much AOE to not take advantage of the lightning staff buff, but I don't know how to incorporate it into a build with BSW (other than to just go double destro).
autumnsongbird wrote: »
I suspect he is talking about people who don't pay attention to any of this stuff which is about 9/10. They don't read this stuff. They don't care about this stuff. But they will wonder why things seemed to have changed.
TotallyNotVos wrote: »Even accounting for the broken evocation bug. My parses on the pts are significantly higher then live on my meta magicka sorcerer. Could that simply be because of the additional 39 cp?
On the pts magicka sorc can hit the 50K single target range. I can't do it on live
TotallyNotVos wrote: »Even accounting for the broken evocation bug. My parses on the pts are significantly higher then live on my meta magicka sorcerer. Could that simply be because of the additional 39 cp?
On the pts magicka sorc can hit the 50K single target range. I can't do it on live
39 CP make a huge difference! If anyone wants to compare DPS values with the live server she/he has to use 561 CP. 39 CP should increase your dmg by 5-10% depending on the class and setup.
TotallyNotVos wrote: »TotallyNotVos wrote: »Even accounting for the broken evocation bug. My parses on the pts are significantly higher then live on my meta magicka sorcerer. Could that simply be because of the additional 39 cp?
On the pts magicka sorc can hit the 50K single target range. I can't do it on live
39 CP make a huge difference! If anyone wants to compare DPS values with the live server she/he has to use 561 CP. 39 CP should increase your dmg by 5-10% depending on the class and setup.
Yeah thats kind of the point i was making. It seems that alot of people are thinking dps is going to go down next update. Where i see it going up quite a bit.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I'm one of those 9 people who don't get it. Maybe I would if I tried harder. But there's something else I don't understand.
Back when weapons ultis reached PTS, everyone was worried about how weak the destro ulti was (spreadsheets and calculations and everything as a proof). ZOS changed the duration to make it more bursty and people still said the ulti was weaker than meteor. Next thing we knew once it was on live : everybody acclaimed the destro ulti for being so OP. What happened then ?
For those who may wonder what this has to do with the current topic : I'm generally wondering if there aren't any "hidden" thing in ZOS' calculations that invalidates - some of - our own, retro-engineered calculations ?
1) I can't see that you've accounted for the action of Thaumaturge CP on sets like Grothdarr - though I may just have not found it. It makes it hard to get a meaningful comparison between Kena & Groth, especially when they remain pretty close in terms of DPS contributions.
It is not only affected by traumaturg, but the DK fire AOE passive (6%?), racial passives (dunmer 7%), etc. I just put a flat value of 1600 DPS in the field "Proc Set base DPS (no crits)". Highes tooltip I have seen was on a dunmer DK little over 2.9k. It can proc every 10 secs and ticks 6 times - so maximum DPS would be somewher around 1.8k DPS.
In the templar and DK spreadsheets I used 1.6k DPS, in the sorcerer sheet its 1.7k DPS. Values can be adjusted to be more precise after testing on the PTS.
2) It's definitely worth adding Minor Berserk into the calculations, as this has high uptime in end-game PvE from both Relentless (NBs) & Combat Prayer (Healers)
Well I could easily add it to the calculation but it is only relevant if it is additive with some bonis. If it is multiplicative with the whole DPS it would be irrelevant when comparing two setups, since the uptimes will be similar.
3) Leading on from 2 (this is a bit of a personal request!) - I don't have IA on PC, so when you get a character copy could you try to find out the interaction between:
Staff +8% passives; Minor Slayer; Minor Berserk; DW +5% passive
Specifically whether they are all truly additive (which it seems is how you've treated them in your SUMPRODUCT, and which I expect them to be) or whether there is some unusual multiplicative mechanism here. (I have some feeling that it was once the case that the DW passive was multiplicative with Minor Berserk - but I could be wrong)
I mainly ask this because additive bonuses here reduce the power of Minor Slayer and in turn reduces the power of IA vs Willpower - in fact, I have WP outperforming IA in my calculations if they are additive.
You are right that I treated them additively, what makes sense for the staff and DW passives since they will never be active at the same time, but will most likely be wrong with minor slayer. I will adjust the spreadsheet once I have the gear on the PTS to do some testings.
It is not surprising that willpower could be outperforming IA in some situations, but running willpower block you from running 2 5-piece sets, therefore WP is kind of irrelevant.
4) Bonus test: are the above passives additive or multiplicative with execute bonuses? Given that the execute bonus typically fits into the base damage calculation pre-modifier, I would expect it to be multiplicative - but you never know with ZoS. I can test this myself on PTS, but it'd be nice to have a second person test, too!
I tested how the lightning passive acted on sweeps and it was a multiplicative increase of dmg by 7.98% so with rounding errors it looks like its multiplicative with the +140% on the neares target. I remember testing minor slayer some time ago and it was additive with the sweep bonus, therefore mostly useless for them.
As I wrote above I will test the new passives, minor slayer and minor berserk and adjust the spreadsheets. In the end I wont expect a change for BIS gear because I cant think of any combination that is not running a set with minor slayer.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I'm one of those 9 people who don't get it. Maybe I would if I tried harder. But there's something else I don't understand.
Back when weapons ultis reached PTS, everyone was worried about how weak the destro ulti was (spreadsheets and calculations and everything as a proof). ZOS changed the duration to make it more bursty and people still said the ulti was weaker than meteor. Next thing we knew once it was on live : everybody acclaimed the destro ulti for being so OP. What happened then ?
For those who may wonder what this has to do with the current topic : I'm generally wondering if there aren't any "hidden" thing in ZOS' calculations that invalidates - some of - our own, retro-engineered calculations ?
Tooltip values on my dunmer templar:
Shooting star: 15993+5099*12 = 77181
Fiery Rage: 8815*8*1,1 = 77572
Fiery Rage costs 240 ultimate, Shooting Star 192-12n, with n: number of enemies hit. So Shooting Star costs at least 60 ultimate less while dealing the same dmg. The only difference is the radius and thats where the destro ulti gets used and is really powerfull. In fights with mostly single targets you are better off using meteor.