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11 Obvious Flaws (and 11 easy fixes) - Housing

willlienellson
willlienellson
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First, I want to congratulate Zos on a wonderful addition to the game. I'm absolutely thrilled with this patch. Both the variety of the homes and the ability to customize them is very exciting. However, there are some pretty obvious flaws that could EASILY be fixed to make the patch so much better.

1) Missing PvP Achievement Furnishings.
There is no furnishing for the Emperor SLAYER achievement or the Warlord slayer achievement. I know it takes a lot of dedication and effort to get emperor, but some players take great pride in their slayer achievements as well.
SOLUTION: A broken, soiled and damaged crown picked up from the battlefield after slaying the enemy emperor!
Nothing as grand as a throne, but still something very cool for players that are very proud of taking on these emperors with their powerful buffs often surrounded by many cohorts.

2) Surplus Siege Does Not Fire.
I had this vision of placing a banner of the enemy faction on the far wall of my compound and using it as a target for a bank of ballistas. Except they don't fire. At all.
SOLUTION: Make them work. It can't be hard. It would easier than purposefully breaking them as was done. I can't see the possible harm.
(Cool things arbitrarily made less useful for no reason is an ongoing theme)

3) Properties are Lifeless and Dead
It doesn't take very long before it dawns on you how hauntingly devoid of life these houses are. Nothing moves. Nothing. At all.
SOLUTION: Have the small non-combat animals that spawn everywhere else in Tamriel also spawn on our properties (squirrels, rabbits, crawlers, birds, etc)
I think this is the easiest possible solution because I'm sure this is just a “toggle” option for the Devs for each zone (new houses are zones).

4) All Animals are.....Lifeless and Dead
Okay, this is kinda the same thing, but mounts and pets don't move. Forget “wandering” - they don't so much as lay down, yawn, or shake their heads. Everything looks like taxidermy.
SOLUTION: If these are coded specifically to follow the players and don't have any pathing of their own, maybe Zos could give us furnishing that would act as a player-like "beacon" that we could place in select areas and the animals could "wander" to the beacons we place.

5) Price Too High....w/Limited Functionality
One argument I've read is that the largest and most expensive homes are going to be most frequently used as guild halls for people pooling their money. Bah! What kind of guild wants a guild hall where you can't even access the guild bank? Can't access the guild trader listing? A place with a merchant that can't even repair armor?
People are talking about having “auctions” in the manors. How are the leaders going to bank all those bids?
SOLUTION: Add existing funtionality BACK into the existing assistants that you already sell for big bucks in the crown store. There is no reason why my merchant or banker can't have full functionality AT LEAST INSIDE the home. At the very least, Zos should make the assistants act like full bankers/merchants while parked stationary inside the houses, even if they can't allow those features when summoned in the open world.

Note on prices: It's not about “having the money”. I can't justify spending 3 million gold on a house when I still need to port to city to access a guild bank, list items for sale, repair armor, etc. There is a big difference between 3 million for a useful, time saving central hub and useless pretty view.

6) Can't Sell Old/Unwanted Real Estate
I think both new and veteran players would be interested in the option of getting some kind of credit for unwanted housing instead of simply gathering more and more properties. I would think a newer player with 500k in the bank would be more likely to buy several houses and upgrade along the way if they could get some type of credit. Otherwise, I know at least some will simply ignore the feature completely until they save up enough money for their top choice. But this is bad for Zos also, because what happens if they lose interest in ESO between now and then. Zos should want to engage players at all ranges.
SOLUTION: Allow the player to sell real estate back to the game for 70% of what they paid initially or give them a credit towards an upgrade property.
Example: If you bought a home for 1.3 million in February you could get a 910k gold credit on your 3.8 million manor you finally buy six months later in August, making the manor cost only 3 millon but your TOTAL paid 4.2 million.

7) More Inventory Nightmares
The last patch made most of the items in the game bound and created an inventory nightmare for many players. Now they are adding 2000+ more items into the game. Dealing with space is a huge problem.
SOLUTION: Add a new tab for furnishings that is nearly unlimited like the subscriber craft bag and doesn't take up inventory space. Give everyone the new tab. For free.
Players would benefit for obvious reasons and Zos, if you are reading this, your company would benefit by removing one of the obstacles to people taking out their credit card and buying a bunch of furnishings (which is obviously what you had in mind with this entire patch ;)

8) Cannot Port From Cyrodiil Wayshrines
I don't expect to be able to port from anywhere in Cyrodiil, but the actual Wayshrine you use to leave PvP will not let you port to your home. So, you still have to port to a city first. This is such a HUGE PIA. This is exactly what I mean by "obvious" functionality flaws. It's not very convenient to port to a city on the way to home to decon items when I can decon/sell/repair in the "stopover" city.
SOLUTION:Nuff said.

9) Item Limitations Should Not Be Tied to Home Size Only
Not only is this a big frustration, but it's also lost revenue for Zos. They miss so many opportunities.
I'm fine with having a base item cap that corresponds to the size of the home, but there should be ways to upgrade that cap with in-game gold or crowns...or both. Some players prefer a more cluttered look for roleplaying reasons or some people have elaborate plans for landscaping, etc.
SOLUTION: BagHousing Space Vendor. Pay gold to add X number of items to your total house limit. Zos, if you're reading this, you could also sell this for crowns. $$$

10) Hardly Any 'Found Items' Are Furnishings
I heard a rumor long ago that the stolen items introduced with the Legerdemain skill line would one day be useful for more than fencing, that they would be items we could use to furnish our homes. Pillows, games, paintings, dice, etc. etc.
Sadly, I've found no stolen items on the PTS that are actual furnishings. Even paintings can't be used as...paintings. Part of me thinks this is just a sad missed "obvious opportunity" and another part of me thinks Zos ACTIVELY REMOVED this feature from these items because they realized it might give someone an alternative to the massive gold sink and crown store push for a few furnishings.
SOLUTION: You don't have to make every single item a furnishing, but I think most of the blue or better quality stolen items that are furnishing-like (paintings, bowls, games) should be usable as furnishings. Otherwise it's going to be frustrating on a cellular level every time someone steals a decorative bowl they can't use and fences it.

11) Massive Gold Sink and Crown Store Push
It's just TOO MUCH. I want Zos to make money. I really do. ESO is great. It deserves to make money and I want to pay them, but this is a bridge too far. We've been playing for almost 3 years with almost nothing to buy, and now suddenly things cost so much that the vast majority of players couldn't buy if they had been saving for the whole 3 years! So, if I've blown all my gold for 3 years am I now to grind until 2020 for things that make me exited about housing today?
I think Zos is making a big bet on player enthusiasm maintaining a grind that I think is going to be enthusiasm CRUSHING. The actual costs of these houses are just the tip of the iceberg, which would be okay if either upfront cost OR the grind gave us additional functionality. Can't repair. Can't list items on a trader. Can't access the guild bank. Can't. Can't. Can't.
Meanwhile, it feels like functionality has been artificially removed from the game for profit. While we are grinding to make a 100k wine goblet, you will steal and fence 3 of them for 200g each.
I love this game. I love this update. I love the house I've picked out. But I'm very depressed at how much better this could be than it actually is.
I can't emphasize this enough. I have some plenty of in-game gold and plenty of crowns to start on the housing adventure, but I won't be buying ANY home when things go live until I truly understand the associated gold sink. If filling my house with items is more expensive and tedious than I can bare, then I'm not interested.
SOLUTION: Implement all of the things above and show the players that this patch isn't JUST about pushing people to the crown store. IF the houses had better functionality they would be a good value at their current price. IF they don't get more functionality, then they WOULD BE still tolerable at this price, IF you reduced the price/grind for the furnishings. As it stands now, the price of the entire "package" is way more than the value.

FINAL NOTE: Zos, I believe Homestead offers and opportunity for you to BOTH make tons of money AND make your players love the game for years to come. To take advantage of this opportunity I feel you MUST bring 1 of the 3 following variables more into balance. PRICE. FUNCTIONALITY. GRIND.
High prices with high functionality is okay. Grinding for things when they are functional is okay. If you would prefer to keep things less functional for some reason, then you must reduce the prices and grinds, or you will squander this opportunity imho.


EDIT: If you compare the tone of the beginning of this post with the final paragraph to Zos, I think you'll read an obvious souring in tone. I still like the Homestead update, but that is a pretty accurate reflection of a week spent exploring the limitations and expenses of this update. I think that's going to be a common theme after the update goes live to the general population unless Zos takes some steps to remedy some of these issues.

BTW,If some of this has already been covered I apologize, but I've been working on this post for several days.
Edited by willlienellson on January 12, 2017 1:25AM
  • Jim_Pipp
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    Fantastic post - does exactly what it says in the tittle. I don't see anything controversial to 'discuss' so I am just bumping thus thread hoping it gets the response it deserves.
    #1 tip (Re)check your graphics settings periodically - especially resolution.
  • TheNuminous1
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    This is exactly how I have been feeling. I've come down to the general conclusion that the only people this update will really be for in the long run is roleplayers looking to fantasize about their beautiful homes (me), Builder types that enjoy games such as Minecraft where the option to create is prevalent, and very serious grind/crafters. People with so much excess they need something like this to dwindle the stock.

    But this update holds no function for the rest of the community other then to sit and look pretty.

    I firmly support your suggestions hopefully this will get looked over by someone important and make them consider things. But the cynical side of me doubts that will be the case.

    I'm still excited, ill still get my house and grind my game time away. But it could have been better. Posts like this will always make me think they could have done better.
  • Danikat
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    Too tired to post much now but I agree with this. Especially that the items introduced with the Justice system to be sold to a fence should also be furniture.
    PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

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  • wayfarerx
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    11/11 all good ideas.
    @wayfarerx - PC / North America / Aldmeri Dominion
  • Elder_III
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    Other then #6 (which I don't mind either way) I agree 100% with this.
    Semi retired from the trading aspects of the game.
  • TheNuminous1
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    Bump
  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
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    BTW,If some of this has already been covered I apologize, but I've been working on this post for several days.

    No, you did good.

    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
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  • Astanphaeus
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    I do like that the housing is a massive gold sink on the level that it is, but I do agree that a bit more functionality would be nice.

    I do basically agree with everything you said though, particularly with regard to the lifeless pets that are just kind of creepy at the moment.
  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    Great post. Really puts into words what I was thinking. Agree with all of above but I want to specifically comment on #6.


    #6) Can't Sell Old/Unwanted Real Estate

    Am I the only one that doesn't want to start out with a sprawling mansion? I think that roleplayers and other immersion folks might also want to "level up" in housing. Start with a small quaint dwelling, fix it up, then sell the place and move on to bigger and better things when you make enough money.

    If you buy the biggest baddest house on the block the first day the patch drops, there is a lot less to do and the potential to get bored or overwhemed when you find out how much it costs to furnish.

    Buying a small house, then "upgrading" if such a thing were possible, would be the best way enjoy everything that housing has to offer.

    However, I barely have enough gold to purchase one house, let alone two, so it would make better financial sense to just wait until I have the money and buy the biggest house I can buy. Which means most players will have to wait a long time or end up with unwanted properties they never use. The longer I have to wait, the less interest I will have in housing and will look to other games and activities. Not being able to upgrade decreases my immersion and interest in housing in general.

    There are a few ways to solve this.
    1. Houses could be sold back for a % of the purchase price.
    2. Purchased houses could be traded in as a credit for purchasing a new house.

    I really like the second one the best. You never get the gold back, but you can pay the difference to upgrade to a bigger house. Still a gold sink but a less harsh one. That encourages players to try all the housing and gives the satisfying feeling of continually upgrading until you get the house you want. You shouldn't have to wait and farm gold until you get your dream house, or take out any shady loans from shady guilds, you should be able to work your way up as a landowner in Tamriel.
    Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on January 13, 2017 8:44AM
  • NightbladeMechanics
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    Extremely insightful perspective on housing. I hadn't put this much thought into it all, but now that I've had these red lights flashed in front of my eyes, I cannot unsee.

    Great post, hopefully zos listens.
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  • StereoLiz
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    5. Actually, you can pick some specific houses to get easy access to bank and merchant. When we exit home, we appear in location where house is, not where we port from (like if we exit dungeon). So, if you need repair, get to the bank or decon loot, you can port to house, exit it and get everything you need, if house is placed in city. Another reason why Hundings hall is the best house in Tamriel ;)
    44e16ca45eaf9b1cbc985522f07ad684.jpg
  • Astanphaeus
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    StereoLiz wrote: »
    5. Actually, you can pick some specific houses to get easy access to bank and merchant. When we exit home, we appear in location where house is, not where we port from (like if we exit dungeon). So, if you need repair, get to the bank or decon loot, you can port to house, exit it and get everything you need, if house is placed in city. Another reason why Hundings hall is the best house in Tamriel ;)

    Hundings has no bank and therefore no guild bank/guild store, so the Rawl'kha house is better for that.
  • StereoLiz
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    Look at my screenshot. There is banker here. The only thing missing here is horse vendor. And who wants 5 minutes loading screen in Rawlkha every time after visiting home? Not me.
  • willlienellson
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    StereoLiz wrote: »
    snip

    I appreciate you pointing out ways to lessen the inconvenience, but a house that costs so much gold should be MORE convenient than porting directly to the cities, not just "mildly" less so.

    Contrast your selected home with a more convenient city like Rawl'Ka.

    In order for me to access the "features" being discussed I would need to first port to my home (load screen #1), then exit the house (load screen #2), and then travel a distance as great as that between a wayshrine and the bank of badly designed cities nobody uses like Bangkorai.

    So, essentially I would be paying money to get an extra load screen and then a longer ride, compared to using Rawl' Ka (the standard) with a single load screen and a compact city with traders, banks, stable, etc. only steps away from the shrine.

    I like that you are a "glass half full" kind of person, but I think your post actually makes my point for me.

    IMO, we shouldn't be spending this kind of money and then looking for ways to make it less of an inconvenience.
    StereoLiz wrote: »
    Look at my screenshot. There is banker here. The only thing missing here is horse vendor. And who wants 5 minutes loading screen in Rawlkha every time after visiting home? Not me.

    That's the point. I reject the premise of the 2 trips with double load screens. I'd take a single longer load screen into Rawl'Ka any day over 2 load screens and a horse ride.
    Edited by willlienellson on January 12, 2017 7:13AM
  • agegarton
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    So very much agree! Great post. Player housing has just sooooo much potential, but while I really loved the houses when I took at sneaky peak on the PTS, I couldn't help but feel the attempt was a bit half-arsed. The bit you wrote about houses being "lifeless" is the single reason I might hold back - an example I gave in a post of my own was the lack of fish in houses with large waterways.

    I really do hope that ZoS takes note. Even a promissory note to add some of this stuff next patch would do for me.
  • Dev
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    4) All Animals are.....Lifeless and Dead
    Okay, this is kinda the same thing, but mounts and pets don't move. Forget “wandering” - they don't so much as lay down, yawn, or shake their heads. Everything looks like taxidermy.
    SOLUTION: If these are coded specifically to follow the players and don't have any pathing of their own, maybe Zos could give us furnishing that would act as a player-like "beacon" that we could place in select areas and the animals could "wander" to the beacons we place.

    Yes, pls do something about this. i put some mounts in the stable and the cat, and they just were seriously creepy.

    Especially the horse with fire on the feet. The fire was moving but no signs of life in the horse.
  • Auricle
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    Well thought out post. I agree with all of these except for selling the houses you buy. I just have this weird image of a terrible reality tv real estate show... but with more lizards and mead.

    ... Actually, wait. Maybe I DO want that.

  • AdamBourke
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    If you compare the tone of the beginning of this post with the final paragraph to Zos, I think you'll read an obvious souring in tone. I still like the Homestead update, but that is a pretty accurate reflection of a week spent exploring the limitations and expenses of this update. I think that's going to be a common theme after the update goes live to the general population unless Zos takes some steps to remedy some of these issues.

    This is exactly how i feel.

    For the most part, housing is really fun on PTS - but it's because we don't have to worry about the PRICE or GRIND aspects that we're going to need to use on live.

    The only one of your points i disagree with is the one about selling houses. I don't think it's necessary, really, and will be detrimental to sales in the crown store.


    I love your idea of having the non-combat small animals in at least the garden areas (but rats could be inside as well - there could be an achievement for killing a rat inside your home!).

    I am sure that the devs working on this will want to work on making NPCs actually walk around and stuff - it's likely that it didn't have time though - Storage would have come first.
    PS4 - EU

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  • Daraugh
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    It's not a house we're creating, it's a diorama.

    The creepiness of it starts to get to me after a while. It's so dead inside these houses. Nothing usable, not even on the same level as npc houses are interactive.

    The crafting tables are weirdly done. One table for each craft, that can be attuned to the trait and reattuned as needed would make more sense. Say the table sets out at neutral, I select Law of Julianos from a menu in my crafting window, craft it and then I can either reset it to neutral, leave it as LoJ or reset it to a different armor set to make something else. Why would I want a dozen different craft tables in my house when porting to the majority of them takes so little time?

    There's nothing to keep me going to my house, no double rest xp, no benefit, hardly anything interactive. Never thought I'd be saying this, but Lotro's method of obtaining housing items is better. Basic items are easily craftable, as they should be here.
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  • Jim_Pipp
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    Unless I have missed something, point number 7 is the fatal error for housing -

    "7) More Inventory Nightmares
    The last patch made most of the items in the game bound and created an inventory nightmare for many players. Now they are adding 2000+ more items into the game. Dealing with space is a huge problem.
    SOLUTION: Add a new tab for furnishings that is nearly unlimited like the subscriber craft bag and doesn't take up inventory space. Give everyone the new tab. For free.
    Players would benefit for obvious reasons and Zos, if you are reading this, your company would benefit by removing one of the obstacles to people taking out their credit card and buying a bunch of furnishings (which is obviously what you had in mind with this entire patch ;)"

    If inventory management is already a problem people are not going to casually collect stuff. If there were a 'furnishings bag' I would be willing to buy or craft stuff just to test it out, but I won't invest in something unless I am positive I want it because otherwise it will clog up my inventory. Combined with the difficulty in previewing items before purchasing them, ZOS is setting us up to fail (n.b. a preview feature is being worked on but it is not confirmed if it will be ready on launch).

    This solution isn't even difficult - housing items are already accessed through the housing editor, so just have them stay there and not be visible in normal inventory. I realise that this could cause a problem with trading items, but I think it will be simple to add another tab to trade/inventory windows to access the 'furnishings bag'.
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  • Shadowshire
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    Danikat wrote: »
    Too tired to post much now but I agree with this. Especially that the items introduced with the Justice system to be sold to a fence should also be furniture.

    From a purely moral perspective, and for its potential effects upon game play, that is not a good idea.

    First, acquiring the ability to craft gear and/or consumables with their characters is time-consuming and complex enough that most players will not bother. (It also requires a significant number of Skill Points which most players would rather apply to other abilities instead.) Then there is the time and effort required to acquire the crafting materials, or to acquire the GP to buy them. Given the way that the Guild Store + Guild Trader system operates, there are only a few items which are sufficiently profitable to craft and sell for GP. Consequently, crafting specifically for characters of guild-mates aside, crafted items are more likely to be used for the benefit of the player's own characters, not for the characters of other players.

    From reading the PTS Patch Notes which describe the process for crafting Homestead furnishings, there is no reason to believe that many players are likely to routinely craft them because they expect to profit by selling them for GP -- at least not by selling them through the Guild Store + Guild Trader system. The profit which most furnishing items might generate seems (to me) unlikely to be significant enough to make the time, effort, and expense of crafting them for sale worthwhile.

    Granted, learning how to steal items from NPCs, and to profit from doing so, does require a player to spend time and effort, just as learning how to fight MoBs (or other player characters), or learning how to craft items, require it. And they will find it highly desirable to apply Skill Points for abilities in the Legerdemain category.

    Nonetheless, allowing players to use any items which their characters steal to furnish their Homestead could have the effect of making the players whose characters craft furnishings, and/or buy them for GP -- not to mention those who buy furnishings with Crowns -- look like fools. Even if stolen items per se are different (from crafted and/or from Crown Store furnishing items), the "optics" would be undesirable if stolen items are equivalent with respect to fencing them for GP, or in "decorative value", or in having an actual use.

    In the same vein, as far as I know, players will not be allowed to furnish their homesteads with items obtained as loot, although looted crafting materials can be used to make furnishings. However, any player may furnish their Homestead with some types of items acquired in the course of play, such as Trophies. Such items cannot be transferred to another player's character(s), thus cannot be used to furnish another player's Homestead.

    That said: in my humble opinion, Zenimax Online does not want any serious competition between selling furnishings for Crowns (bought with Dollars), and players crafting furnishings to sell for GP. Allowing players to furnish Homesteads with items which their characters have successfully stolen, or looted, also would be competition for the Crown Store. In that respect, I am not a lawyer, but I suppose that Z.O. is not likely to be held to account in federal court for violating the US Sherman Anti-Trust Act. :wink:

    Enough said.


    Edited by Shadowshire on January 12, 2017 9:57PM
    --- Shadowshire .......... ESO Plus on PC NA with Windows 7 Pro SP1

    nil carborundum illegitimi
  • Enodoc
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    Good post. I agree with all of these, particularly the lifeless pets/mounts, the separate furnishing inventory, and the "upgrading" idea (both upgrading houses by selling the old one, and upgrading capacity by buying more space).
    Edited by Enodoc on January 12, 2017 1:08PM
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  • Elsonso
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    That said: in my humble opinion, Zenimax Online does not want any serious competition between selling furnishings for Crowns (bought with Dollars), and players crafting furnishings to sell for GP. Allowing players to furnish Homesteads with items which their characters have successfully stolen, or looted, also would be competition for the Crown Store.

    While they may counter this by saying that they are trying to add "interesting game play", I think that this is the core of the issue. With each significant feature that is added there is a clear pattern emerging that, no matter what they are adding, things that compete with Crowns must be a trial by fire for the player. It does not matter what it is, or what the payoff for the player is, if Crowns are involved, the player must run a gauntlet to avoid spending them.

    In the end, it is not about the game. It is about buying Crowns.
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  • Shadowshire
    Shadowshire
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    First, I want to congratulate Zos on a wonderful addition to the game. I'm absolutely thrilled with this patch. Both the variety of the homes and the ability to customize them is very exciting. However, there are some pretty obvious flaws that could EASILY be fixed to make the patch so much better.
    ....

    9) Item Limitations Should Not Be Tied to Home Size Only
    Not only is this a big frustration, but it's also lost revenue for Zos. They miss so many opportunities. I'm fine with having a base item cap that corresponds to the size of the home, but there should be ways to upgrade that cap with in-game gold or crowns...or both. Some players prefer a more cluttered look for roleplaying reasons or some people have elaborate plans for landscaping, etc.

    SOLUTION: BagHousing Space Vendor. Pay gold to add X number of items to your total house limit. Zos, if you're reading this, you could also sell this for crowns. $$$

    Your criticism and your solution assume that the PTS item count limits for the respective Homesteads are significantly less than the space that is available can actually accommodate. That is, you assume that it is feasible to place and use more items than the current furnishings limit. Personally, I have not attempted to furnish a Homestead of any size (on the PTS), so your assumption might be correct. After all, a player who has an active ESO Plus monthly subscription can place and display twice as many items in their Homestead as a player who does not have an active ESO Plus monthly subscription.

    Be that as it may, the entire surface space area(s) of a Homestead cannot be used for furnishings! Else it would just become a warehouse packed with as much as it can possibly hold. Yes, there are players who would do that. What would be the point? Some players will never be satisfied with the amount of "storage" that is available for their use.

    Regardless, the area of the virtual surface space displayed on your computer screen cannot be infinite. The surface spaces in each Homestead have dimensions, thus have fixed areas which are bounded by immovable objects, walls, water, etc. Consequently, there are inherent technical limits as to how many items can be placed, displayed, and used within the areas of Homestead surfaces.

    One must also consider how much surface area each specific item will occupy, thus how feasible it will be to place a particular combination of items within the fixed area of a given space. The more area that a given surface space has, the more items that might be feasibly installed, depending upon their respective sizes and their placement.

    But that area itself cannot be increased without altering the walls and other bounds of the surface space(s); that is, without changing the architecture and grounds of the Homestead. That, in turn, affects how much space the Homestead must occupy on the virtual surface of Tamriel per se.

    Consequently, it is not possible for Z.O. to adopt and implement your suggestion. What is possible is to have a very large amount of "warehouse" storage space for furnishings which are not currently placed and displayed in a Homestead. If memory serves, furnishings will be stored in a separate category in your in-game bank account, along with armor, weapons, consumables, etc. With respect to storing furnishings in the bank, your suggestion has merit.

    So, I suggest that you move a character to an Inn or other comparable structure, and/or in some ruins, delves, and dungeons. Count the number of furniture items which are in place for each surface area. See how much surface space they occupy relative to how much is left open for movement and other actions by player characters, by NPCs ,and MoBs.

    11) Massive Gold Sink and Crown Store Push
    It's just TOO MUCH. I want Zos to make money. I really do. ESO is great. It deserves to make money and I want to pay them, but this is a bridge too far. We've been playing for almost 3 years with almost nothing to buy, and now suddenly things cost so much that the vast majority of players couldn't buy if they had been saving for the whole 3 years! So, if I've blown all my gold for 3 years am I now to grind until 2020 for things that make me excited about housing today?

    I think Zos is making a big bet on player enthusiasm maintaining a grind that I think is going to be enthusiasm CRUSHING. The actual costs of these houses are just the tip of the iceberg, which would be okay if either upfront cost OR the grind gave us additional functionality. Can't repair. Can't list items on a trader. Can't access the guild bank. Can't. Can't. Can't.

    Meanwhile, it feels like functionality has been artificially removed from the game for profit. While we are grinding to make a 100k wine goblet, you will steal and fence 3 of them for 200g each. (who is "you" ??? - Shadowshire)

    You have valid concerns. In my own humble experience, foraging for the materials which are used currently for crafting gear or consumables is already on the verge of becoming infeasible for any player who simply wants to obtain them for their own use or to sell to other players via the Guild Store + Guild Trader system.

    In many instances, there are just too many players relative to the number of nodes and the amounts of material that each node yields. Nodes do not re-spawn often enough, whether that would make foraging more feasible or just increase the amount collected by players with characters which are built to gather as much as possible as quickly as possible. (Occasionally, one or more of those "players" are, in fact, gold-farmer bots.)

    Adding furnishing crafting materials probably will not change the current situation, just perpetuate it, and possibly make matters worse.

    Already Z.O. offers "crafting materials" for purchase from the Crown Store as a feature of each crafting workstation in the game. I don't know how much revenue they have received from doing that. However, I suspect that eventually most players will find it necessary or desirable to buy them (with Crowns, thus Dollars), at least some of the time, instead of foraging for them.

    Suffice it to say, Z.O. has no incentive to increase the availability or the amount of any crafting materials gathered from nodes in Tamriel. That is, they don't unless and until players become frustrated enough by the situation to abandon playing the game. Some folks forget that greed killed the goose which laid the Golden Egg.

    As far as I know, the only crafting materials available from vendor NPCs are armor and weapon style materials, and raw foods from grocers that are used for Provisioning. Vendor NPC pricing is not competitive with foraging, to say the least, and has the effect of capping the price for which a player's character can sell the same item, such as a glyph, via a Guild Store. So far, at least, a player cannot purchase ores, fibers or skins, lumber, runestones, or herbs, mushrooms, solvents and reagents, from NPCs. But they can purchase gear, including jewelry, and some consumables from vendor NPCs.

    Edited by Shadowshire on January 12, 2017 10:35PM
    --- Shadowshire .......... ESO Plus on PC NA with Windows 7 Pro SP1

    nil carborundum illegitimi
  • SirCritical
    SirCritical
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Announce this thread, please. Thank you.
    Edited by SirCritical on January 12, 2017 3:45PM
  • Gedalya
    Gedalya
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    I like the note on functional siege and slayer achievements. Also, I would like NPCs in my properties; especially the larger one. This gets to the point of a life-less property. In Skyrim/Fallout 4 your homes have NPCs walking about; I can't imagine this would take to much. It would be nice to be able to hire/negotiate with an NPC to stay at your manor; someone like a guard or two, and other people to take care of day to day things.
    Baskin Robbins always finds out.

    Check out my ESO name generator: eso.tamriel.org
  • willlienellson
    willlienellson
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    Your criticism and your solution assume that the PTS item count limits for the respective Homesteads are significantly less than the space that is available, for placing and displaying items, can actually accommodate. Personally, I have not attempted to furnish a Homestead of any size (on the PTS), so your assumption might be correct.

    It's not an assumption, because I have been on the PTS for many hours.

    You can easily max out the item count just on landscaping without ever walking in your front door.

    Likewise, my idea for a small house for my roguish khajiit was ruined when I realized I couldn't place all my Senche mounts outside even though there was plenty of physical space for them.

    KEY NOTE: This is lost money for Zos. I was going to buy a 2nd house for more Roleplaying reasons to go with this specific character. I would probably be willing to spend gold or some crowns to expand the collectible limit for the small RP home, but without the option I won't be buying it AT ALL. That's one less home sold (either in crowns or gold removed from economy).
  • thegreybetween
    thegreybetween
    ✭✭✭
    Just dropping in to say that my first official act on these forums was to "Agree" with this insightful/awesome OP; this is my first post. I've been playing the game for a few years, but really started to invest in the experience once I heard player housing was on the way. I'm not on the PTS, but have been following these threads closely and compiling a lot of player feedback to temper my expectations. This OP seems to hit the major points quite well.

    - Hearing about static/lifeless mounts & pets was a bummer. I completely agree that setting an "anchor point" for a pet to use as a wandering hub and go through their normal animations would be an excellent start, with similar basic animations for assistants and mounts. Riding mounts within property limits is also something that bafflingly doesn't seem allowed.
    - Hearing about the demands on inventory space for furniture was also a bummer, compounded by the limited furnishing slots in each home. Furnishing does seem like a great opportunity for ZOS to raise some revenue, but if I am only allowed to have 30 items in my house and every single fork or decorative piece of fruit consumes a slot or otherwise gums up my inventory, I am definitely not going to be rushing out to "stock the pantry" with my crowns.
    - As a player who is primarily interested in crafting, I have very mixed feelings about the addition of furniture crafting and the Master Writ program. Conceptually, I love these additions, and in general I think that the bulk of the outcry over the level of dedication required to exploit this system is a bit unjustified. We crafters have been excited for our own way to really make a mark on Tamriel, and this is a good start. That said, I have to agree that the material requirements to build these things seem completely out of whack, and that the value tied up into Master Writ completion is going to make it a tough sell for all but the most lucrative MWs. I am ready to love the system, but I think it is going to take a few more patches before the system achieves a balanced stride.
    - I am also disappointed with how generally "pointless" the whole housing system currently is. I love the RP aspects and I'm excited to do some decorating, but the OP is 100% correct that there is absolutely no functional reason to go to our homes rather than directly to a city. Assistants provide none of the "fringe" services that make them truly indispensable (Guild banks, repair services, etc), there is no way to interface with guild/player trading networks, and with the exception of the Skeleton dummy, there is nothing interactive on our properties. The OP is on the right track with things like adding random benign wildlife "encounters" to our yards. But to really give the places life, they should have more interactive features. I understand that these are instanced and that it might be deemed unfair/unbalanced for the homes to spawn harvestable nodes, but something like a fishing hole that provided nothing and just allowed the player to go through the animations would be awesome for immersion.
    - I get that storage is a key gold sink and revenue opportunity, and I'm OK with that. But containers and other furnishings in our homes should have some utility. A typical nightstand in the world contains 1-2 items; chests hold up to 5-6 items when found in the world. Maybe a good place to start would be to allow these items to have similar capacities in our homes? I get that this may encourage people to fill their house with nothing but dressers to get around a bank upgrade or two, so another way to address it would be to set a base storage limit on houses of each size. A medium house has, lets say, 25 storage slots regardless of the number of containers in the place, but to access this storage, the house must also have appropriate container furnishings. Best of both worlds, and a big step toward functional homes that may justify the effort/cost.

    In the end, what I am hoping to find with Homestead is a place where my character can feel "at home". As it stands, ZOS is providing a reasonable bit of variety, a ton of customization options, and the framework for one of the most exciting expansions to the game I've yet experienced. That said, they have yet to provide utility, interaction, and the spark of life within these properties to make them anything more than a weird, expensive dollhouse for PCs (and PCs alone) to stand around and emote in. Please bring these houses to life and give us a (functional) reason to spend our resources making our homes truly sweet homes.
    Brings-the-Rain - Argonian Sorcerer - Ebonheart Pact - CP278 (and steadily rising)
    Build: "lolz l2p n00b"
    Master Crafter | Werewolf | Solo PvE (so far) | ESO Plus | NA/PC via Steam

    "Cool rain on your scales, friends."
  • Shadowshire
    Shadowshire
    ✭✭✭✭
    Your criticism and your solution assume that the PTS item count limits for the respective Homesteads are significantly less than the space that is available, for placing and displaying items, can actually accommodate. Personally, I have not attempted to furnish a Homestead of any size (on the PTS), so your assumption might be correct. ....

    It's not an assumption, because I have been on the PTS for many hours.

    You can easily max out the item count just on landscaping without ever walking in your front door.

    Likewise, my idea for a small house for my roguish khajiit was ruined when I realized I couldn't place all my Senche mounts outside even though there was plenty of physical space for them.

    KEY NOTE: This is lost money for Zos. I was going to buy a 2nd house for more Roleplaying reasons to go with this specific character. I would probably be willing to spend gold or some crowns to expand the collectible limit for the small RP home, but without the option I won't be buying it AT ALL. That's one less home sold (either in crowns or gold removed from economy).

    Thank-you for your response. It does not surprise me that you have found that it is feasible to place, display, and use more items in the available space than the current limit to the number of items.

    It does surprise me if you can do that and still have sufficient space for as many as 24 PCs simultaneously gathered at a Manor without anyone stepping on another's toes, or stumbling over the furniture. Can you imagine the scene when all 24 rush outside, summon their respective mounts, and make a mad dash for the gate to the outside zone?

    Should I suppose that they can all be mushed together into a crowd like they are at a bank when the sole teller is busier than a one-armed paper hanger in a windstorm? NPCs are solid as a rock, but PCs are as ephemeral as ghosts. Or are PCs solid, too, while at a Homestead?

    Players want mounts, pets, and servants that move around, which requires vacant areas in which they can do that. But they also want to use more of the available space for static furnishings, too.

    It is not a challenge that is easy to resolve. The software packages used by architects and by interior designers and decorators are expensive to obtain, and have taken thousands of hours of time and effort as well as expertise to develop. So I won't hold my breath in anticipation of the Z.O. development team including a highly sophisticated Housing Editor in a game such as TESO. :neutral:

    --- Shadowshire .......... ESO Plus on PC NA with Windows 7 Pro SP1

    nil carborundum illegitimi
  • luen79rwb17_ESO
    luen79rwb17_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    100% agree with OP
    PC/DC/NAserver

    V16 sorc - V16 temp - V16 dk - V1 nb - V1 temp - V1 dk
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