11 Obvious Flaws (and 11 easy fixes) - Housing

willlienellson

SirCritical wrote: »

Announce this thread, please. Thank you.

Not really sure how to do that, but maybe this will work...

@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@Bel_Shezzar

There seems to be significant consensus with my post, so I thought it might be worth bringing to your attention specifically.
I would love to hear some Developer feedback on any/all of these. Thanks.

Not sure if these are the correct names, but these are the ones I saw active on the PTS threads.

Elsonso

willlienellson wrote: »

SirCritical wrote: »

Announce this thread, please. Thank you.

Not really sure how to do that, but maybe this will work...

@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@Bel_Shezzar

There seems to be significant consensus with my post, so I thought it might be worth bringing to your attention specifically.
I would love to hear some Developer feedback on any/all of these. Thanks.

Not sure if these are the correct names, but these are the ones I saw active on the PTS threads.

They will see this, probably without even the call out. I am sure they wander the forums looking for comments to give to the devs. They probably get sweetrolls based on how many of these things they pass along.

willlienellson

I want to elaborate on something I said in #11.

Here is a screen cap of a bunch of items I stole and then fenced which seem like things someone could place in their home. None of them can be used as furnishings and so far, I haven't found a single item that can be.



SOLUTION:I really want to focus on giving Zos affordable, low man-hour, easy to implement solutions. (something I think we should all do more often) If it's not cost effective to create models for some of these items, then I have a super easy obvious solution:
Add the crafted furnishings into the loot table for stolen items with a very low drop rate.

Please consider this and how easy it would be to implement. The drop rate can still be very low and have very little impact on the economy and demand of, and reward for, crafting.

Once upon a time this game was marketed as "play how you want", but this update continues in the other direction. Heck, I'm even severely penalized because I CHOSE to split up my crafting duties between multiple characters. What a basic decision to be penalized for considering the context of how the game was presented.

But here is an opportunity to add a little of that original idea back into the game with no downside. If someone would rather spend 90 minutes stealing than 30 minutes farming nodes, why not give them a way to gain some furnishings in that way? Besides the fact that so many stolen items just seem to obviously be furnishings in name, this would one small thing that would bring continuity to the next update and make it more enjoyable for ALL players.

Ekoe1954

I agree with OP, and think he has summarized things quite nicely.

I too love ESO and would like to see it thrive. I too believe that giving players collectible things to invest there time in will keep them.

While I have just begun checking out this DLC I am already doubting that I will invest a lot of time, money, and energy in something this grindy with this amount of RNG, and so limited functionality. As it stands, it feels like this is one of those DLC's that once the first flush is over, will be ignored by most, and a regular source of irritation to the few that keep trying. I was initially considering it for a guild hall, but in truth I can't see anyone bothering to visit it, and by the time (if ever) I get the crafting stations in place, we'll all be ready for retirement in rl............... lol

And yes, things like "lack of animation" of the animals was downright depressing; It looked like I'd taken my fav horse and had it stuffed and stuck it in the stables. It was just plain SAD. Some things, if you can't do them right, best not to do them at all! This is a prime example of that.

Everyone here has made good points, many better than I could. As for what is and is not easy to implement, well, ESO is the best judge of what is possible, and what they are or are not willing to bother doing.

I do believe that, at it's present state, this package has fail written all over it.... and wanted to add my "voice of concern".

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Excellent points, and I agree with every single one. The one that totally baffles me is that my pets and mounts dont move? Is it low on the list of changes, yeah probably, but it still blows my mind. Who killed and stuffed my Senche?

driosketch

A lot of good suggestions, but I want to address an issue with number 2.

2) Surplus Siege Does Not Fire.
I had this vision of placing a banner of the enemy faction on the far wall of my compound and using it as a target for a bank of ballistas. Except they don't fire. At all.
SOLUTION: Make them work. It can't be hard. It would easier than purposefully breaking them as was done. I can't see the possible harm.
(Cool things arbitrarily made less useful for no reason is an ongoing theme)

I feel like it should be acknowledged there is a difference between the siege 'item' and the siege 'set piece'. Items can only be set in valid spots in overland Cyrodiil, are fully interactive, have no collision, and health that decays over time.

Set pieces can have limited interaction, for instance, in Northern Auridon a quest has you burn some trebs. But they stay burning because they lack heath. Compare this with target ranges near the alliance based, which break over time and are replace by the game system.

I think it would be possible to give the set pieces/furnishings an interaction with a firing animation, but you probably wouldn't be able to manually target them. They would probably also not be very satisfying to see the projectiles clip into walls or vanish beyond the instance bubble.

Basically, I don't think it's restoring function to siege, but rather would require a new type of siege and rule sets just for houses.

Morimizo

Great post, @willlienellson , I am also disappointed in their lack of functionality and interactivity; for example...

1) Lighting/putting out the candles/lanterns/fires/braziers. For the apartments and smaller homes, have the house be dark when you arrive. For larger homes, why not employ a butler to keep the home as you wish when you're away?

2) Fully functional Stable Master NPC and all collected mounts in separate stalls moving as they normally would, but at least head-tracking when you approach.

3) At least one pet should be designated as a favorite and greet you at the door when you arrive, and follow you while you are home (especially if you go into the kitchen).

4) Riffing off your idea for the outdoor spaces to include living creatures, would like to have a race-themed bird feeder (that looks like a small replica of a race style's building) and the local birds come to visit for a snack.

5) There should be a closet that displays your collected costumes and disguises, and mannequins to place your armors.

A house cannot be a home without immersive interactivity, and there's little reason to jump through the nuclear flaming hoops of grind when the functionality of work stations/banks/merchants are just as convenient (and better) from any city hub.

Soella

It does surprise me if you can do that and still have sufficient space for as many as 24 PCs simultaneously gathered at a Manor without anyone stepping on another's toes, or stumbling over the furniture. Can you imagine the scene when all 24 rush outside, summon their respective mounts, and make a mad dash for the gate to the outside zone?

Don't forget that every apple you put on the table, every book you put on the shelves, every candle you used to lit the house - all that counts toward the limit.

Let plan a library (I am sure a lot of people would like to have it) as example - 362 books to start with....

Akimbro

willlienellson wrote: »

7) More Inventory Nightmares

This is the biggest issue currently. Housing is new and there will be much more to come. I'm okay with that. But with housing not providing personal storage (non ESO+ members still using personal gbanks), you're going to have a hard time decorating and moving things around. You can decorate with furnishings from the bank, but when you put them away it goes to your inventory. Plus, there are so many different new materials and furnishings. They need to be made to not take up bag/bank space...or you know, give homes personal storage...

Yolokin_Swagonborn

willlienellson wrote: »

I want to elaborate on something I said in #11.

Here is a screen cap of a bunch of items I stole and then fenced which seem like things someone could place in their home. None of them can be used as furnishings and so far, I haven't found a single item that can be.



SOLUTION:I really want to focus on giving Zos affordable, low man-hour, easy to implement solutions. (something I think we should all do more often) If it's not cost effective to create models for some of these items, then I have a super easy obvious solution:
Add the crafted furnishings into the loot table for stolen items with a very low drop rate.

Please consider this and how easy it would be to implement. The drop rate can still be very low and have very little impact on the economy and demand of, and reward for, crafting.

Once upon a time this game was marketed as "play how you want", but this update continues in the other direction. Heck, I'm even severely penalized because I CHOSE to split up my crafting duties between multiple characters. What a basic decision to be penalized for considering the context of how the game was presented.

But here is an opportunity to add a little of that original idea back into the game with no downside. If someone would rather spend 90 minutes stealing than 30 minutes farming nodes, why not give them a way to gain some furnishings in that way? Besides the fact that so many stolen items just seem to obviously be furnishings in name, this would one small thing that would bring continuity to the next update and make it more enjoyable for ALL players.

Agree 100% I feel like this entire time, while we picked up collectables from dungeons (like the chattering skull) and kept interesting stolen items (like the pocket goblin) instead of selling them to the fence, we were all hoping that one day, when housing was added to the game, we would have a place to store all of these collectables.

How bitterly disappointing now when we learn that all of the seemingly useless stuff we have collected is still useless and we can't even store it in our houses let alone display it.

Another simplified solution would would be to have a "collectibles" cabinet that you can install in your house. It wouldn't store gear, just unique items or treasures you either stole and fenced or got off bosses. No need to create the models for now, just storage.


I'm talking about this stuff:



Having a special cabinet that you could ONLY store collectables/treasures in wouldn't interfere with any grand plans to milk us for more crowns by withholding general storage from housing but it would be a fun reward for people who took the time (and inventory space) to hold all of this stuff for so long.

ZOS wouldn't even have to create models for it all, I just want a place in my house to store my pocket goblin. It is burning a hole in my pocket at the moment.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Just going to leave this here: May shed some insight into why furnishings are being treated the way they are.

Enodoc wrote: »

I've found some Crate Cards for a future Crown Crate season which have furnishings in them. Not sure which furnishings they are though.

Pandorii

This in a great read. I hope the devs see it.

Elsonso

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Just going to leave this here: May shed some insight into why furnishings are being treated the way they are.

Enodoc wrote: »

I've found some Crate Cards for a future Crown Crate season which have furnishings in them. Not sure which furnishings they are though.

Hardly a mystery.

willlienellson

driosketch wrote: »

I feel like it should be acknowledged there is a difference between the siege 'item' and the siege 'set piece'. Items can only be set in valid spots in overland Cyrodiil, are fully interactive, have no collision, and health that decays over time.
..........
Basically, I don't think it's restoring function to siege, but rather would require a new type of siege and rule sets just for houses.

Forgive a short reply from my phone, but if you are looking for a working in-game example of what I'm talking about that already exists...

Look no further than the Training Siege used in the first quest given to a new player upon entering Cyrodiil.

They fire. They target. They don't degrade. They are static (you can't pick them up or place them).

They function exactly as they should when placed in our estates.

zassasaurus

yes I 100% agree PLEASE make these changes to make housing worthwhile!

driosketch

willlienellson wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

I feel like it should be acknowledged there is a difference between the siege 'item' and the siege 'set piece'. Items can only be set in valid spots in overland Cyrodiil, are fully interactive, have no collision, and health that decays over time.
..........
Basically, I don't think it's restoring function to siege, but rather would require a new type of siege and rule sets just for houses.

Forgive a short reply from my phone, but if you are looking for a working in-game example of what I'm talking about that already exists...

Look no further than the Training Siege used in the first quest given to a new player upon entering Cyrodiil.

They fire. They target. They don't degrade. They are static (you can't pick them up or place them).

They function exactly as they should when placed in our estates.

When you are next in Cyrodiil go take a look for yourself. Notice they have health bars. Park yourself behind the one that's lowest and wait. Eventually it will break and fall apart. Several seconds later the game will replace it.

If you want to see a static example, find the siege merchant. There are some rather solid, non-functional versions of different siege engines there. The ones in northern Auridon, like the furnishing ones, have no collision. They are also nonfunctional except for a specific quest step where you burn them. Even then, the animation is the standard interaction one, not the torch one from PvP. They may look alike, but these two types of siege are different assets.

idk

@willlienellson ien

3, 4, 5 and 7 are correct and should get good attention.

However, the one most off the mark is 6) Can't Sell Old/Unwanted Real Estate. Since we are not actually buying space/real estate in the game there is nothing to resell. A thousand people can own the same home. It is not real space.

Also, the housing is priced well, there is something for everyone's budget.

willlienellson

I'm not talking about commerce between players. I'm afraid you misunderstood #6. Give it a reread.

willlienellson

driosketch wrote: »

snip

You might be right. I'll have to check again. But I assure you, I believe I know enough about game design to feel confident it doesn't matter. This is still one of the easiest things to implement.

I assure you, it's simply a "decision" for them to make. Total man hours are going to be less than 1 guaranteed.

But rather than get bogged down discusding how similar to in-gam siege they should be, I just want to reiterate what I want them to do.

*Activating siege should change you view to move and target with the siege like in Cyrodiil.

*It should fire at the normal rate and range.

*By default it should destroy no structures just as it destroys no structures other than keep walls in Cyrodiil. If you shoot siege at something like a Imperial Fort, the siege will just explode when it hits the wall without doing any damage. Same when it hits a tree or rock.

*The siege should not degrade in health just like they do now on the PTS and like behind the siege merchant.

Easy Peasy.

petraeus1

willlienellson wrote: »

I want to elaborate on something I said in #11.

Here is a screen cap of a bunch of items I stole and then fenced which seem like things someone could place in their home. None of them can be used as furnishings and so far, I haven't found a single item that can be.



SOLUTION:I really want to focus on giving Zos affordable, low man-hour, easy to implement solutions. (something I think we should all do more often) If it's not cost effective to create models for some of these items, then I have a super easy obvious solution:
Add the crafted furnishings into the loot table for stolen items with a very low drop rate.

Please consider this and how easy it would be to implement. The drop rate can still be very low and have very little impact on the economy and demand of, and reward for, crafting.

Once upon a time this game was marketed as "play how you want", but this update continues in the other direction. Heck, I'm even severely penalized because I CHOSE to split up my crafting duties between multiple characters. What a basic decision to be penalized for considering the context of how the game was presented.

But here is an opportunity to add a little of that original idea back into the game with no downside. If someone would rather spend 90 minutes stealing than 30 minutes farming nodes, why not give them a way to gain some furnishings in that way? Besides the fact that so many stolen items just seem to obviously be furnishings in name, this would one small thing that would bring continuity to the next update and make it more enjoyable for ALL players.

I don't entirely agree.

Integrating these systems is important. Not only is it lame to have items labelled as furniture that can't be used as furniture, it will also become an unintelligible mess when items ostenstibly of the same category are actually secretly involved in two separate systems. We got tons of new items with the Justice System, we're getting thousands of new items now - similar categories but no cross-over? Veterans will be fine, but the inventory game is already really hard for new players now, let alone when things like this happen.

Creating models for all fencing items will be a pain of course (though not all of them would be fit as furniture anyway), but if it adds serious customization options, it's definitely worth it. I assume they have plans to add more customization options in the future anyway - why not integrate the game's various systems more in the process? To balance things out with crafting/vendors, make it so you have to launder stolen furniture to use it, adjust the rates for that accordingly, so that laundring furniture is more expensive than laundring other stolen items.

Housing is already a massive gold sink and Crown Store thing as it stands, it can take a hit in that regard by expanding it to the Justice System. No need to adjust all ambitious plans to cater to ZOS so it's not too much work or so they can still profit off of it. Then we'll always get suboptimal solutions. ZOS will make money when their game's excellent (and all public pointers indicate that ESO's been doing insanely well in 2016), and ESO will we better when its systems complement each other and when fun things like decorating houses can be done via various methods and is reasonably accessible. Ambition! Greatness is in the little things.

willlienellson

petraeus1 wrote: »

snip

I agree with you. There are many things I want added and improved, but there are some things that are easy enough that we should get them sooner rather than later. It doesn't mean this is an exhaustive list.

I want SOME things stolen to be able to be placed as a furnishing when this goes live. There is no excuse not to have a few things to be included in the loot tables.

There are other threads with people asking for all kinds of additions, ALL of which I support...But IMO these things Ive listed should be included in the first update when it goes live in February. They are that simple, IMO.

Savodral_Maryralu

Thank you for this amazing post.

I feel you MUST bring 1 of the 3 following variables more into balance. PRICE. FUNCTIONALITY. GRIND.

Best quote of homested

UrbanMonk

BUMP

kewl

Point 11 is spot on. I will not be purchasing a home or craft related wares.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Savodral_Maryralu wrote: »

Thank you for this amazing post.

I feel you MUST bring 1 of the 3 following variables more into balance. PRICE. FUNCTIONALITY. GRIND.

Best quote of homested

This is the real reason people feel ripped off by the crown store and the crown mentatlity. It's not the high price per se. Its a combination of a high price and reduced (or intentionally removed) functionality.

I don't mind spending a lot on housing but my willingness to spend corresponds sharply with the value (in this case functionality) I am recieving.

If ZOS followed the suggestions in this post, Houses would have a lot more value.

Vudokan

Shadowshire wrote: »

Your criticism and your solution assume that the PTS item count limits for the respective Homesteads are significantly less than the space that is available can actually accommodate. That is, you assume that it is feasible to place and use more items than the current furnishings limit. Personally, I have not attempted to furnish a Homestead of any size (on the PTS), so your assumption might be correct. After all, a player who has an active ESO Plus monthly subscription can place and display twice as many items in their Homestead as a player who does not have an active ESO Plus monthly subscription.

Be that as it may, the entire surface space area(s) of a Homestead cannot be used for furnishings! Else it would just become a warehouse packed with as much as it can possibly hold. Yes, there are players who would do that. What would be the point? Some players will never be satisfied with the amount of "storage" that is available for their use.

You really need to go in and try furnishing a home. You will RAPIDLY find, even as a subscriber, that you will max your available slots out long before the house and yard look even remotely furnished. In other words, fully maxed homes look sparse and empty. This is due to 2 factors:

1. Houses and yards have absurdly low slot caps. It's insane, like... you won't even get close to furnishing your place.
2. Every tiny thing - a nyx pet, a fork, a plate, a bowl - takes up a slot, regardless of size or space taken up.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Vudokan wrote: »

Shadowshire wrote: »

Your criticism and your solution assume that the PTS item count limits for the respective Homesteads are significantly less than the space that is available can actually accommodate. That is, you assume that it is feasible to place and use more items than the current furnishings limit. Personally, I have not attempted to furnish a Homestead of any size (on the PTS), so your assumption might be correct. After all, a player who has an active ESO Plus monthly subscription can place and display twice as many items in their Homestead as a player who does not have an active ESO Plus monthly subscription.

Be that as it may, the entire surface space area(s) of a Homestead cannot be used for furnishings! Else it would just become a warehouse packed with as much as it can possibly hold. Yes, there are players who would do that. What would be the point? Some players will never be satisfied with the amount of "storage" that is available for their use.

You really need to go in and try furnishing a home. You will RAPIDLY find, even as a subscriber, that you will max your available slots out long before the house and yard look even remotely furnished. In other words, fully maxed homes look sparse and empty. This is due to 2 factors:

1. Houses and yards have absurdly low slot caps. It's insane, like... you won't even get close to furnishing your place.
2. Every tiny thing - a nyx pet, a fork, a plate, a bowl - takes up a slot, regardless of size or space taken up.

petraeus1

willlienellson wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

snip

I agree with you. There are many things I want added and improved, but there are some things that are easy enough that we should get them sooner rather than later. It doesn't mean this is an exhaustive list.

I want SOME things stolen to be able to be placed as a furnishing when this goes live. There is no excuse not to have a few things to be included in the loot tables.

There are other threads with people asking for all kinds of additions, ALL of which I support...But IMO these things Ive listed should be included in the first update when it goes live in February. They are that simple, IMO.

Fair enough!

In your OP you mentioned you had heard a rumour that stolen goods would one day be good for something more than just fencing them. I also think I remember this, but can't find the source. I was wondering if anyone knows where this came from and, if anyone from ZOS mentioned it, it was related to Housing.

Jim_Pipp

I'm still banging on about the inventory nightmare housing will be.

Even "unfurnished" homes come with a lot of items that may not be wanted. So you either have to destroy furnishings (which may be hard given how expensive items are) or hold onto them.

Because inventory management is my biggest headache in this game I almost wish an unfurnished home was empty so I don't have to choose between hording or being wasteful.

Morimizo

Vudokan wrote: »

Shadowshire wrote: »

Your criticism and your solution assume that the PTS item count limits for the respective Homesteads are significantly less than the space that is available can actually accommodate. That is, you assume that it is feasible to place and use more items than the current furnishings limit. Personally, I have not attempted to furnish a Homestead of any size (on the PTS), so your assumption might be correct. After all, a player who has an active ESO Plus monthly subscription can place and display twice as many items in their Homestead as a player who does not have an active ESO Plus monthly subscription.

Be that as it may, the entire surface space area(s) of a Homestead cannot be used for furnishings! Else it would just become a warehouse packed with as much as it can possibly hold. Yes, there are players who would do that. What would be the point? Some players will never be satisfied with the amount of "storage" that is available for their use.

You really need to go in and try furnishing a home. You will RAPIDLY find, even as a subscriber, that you will max your available slots out long before the house and yard look even remotely furnished. In other words, fully maxed homes look sparse and empty. This is due to 2 factors:

1. Houses and yards have absurdly low slot caps. It's insane, like... you won't even get close to furnishing your place.
2. Every tiny thing - a nyx pet, a fork, a plate, a bowl - takes up a slot, regardless of size or space taken up.[/list]

It is going to be so difficult to choose...

30 bland cups (which are actually goblets, since there is a stem), or;

30 King Kurog-sized beds.

Never mind, I'm sure it will work out fine. Quite fine. They probably have the same number of style materials anyway.