11 Obvious Flaws (and 11 easy fixes) - Housing

Ashtaris

Yep, I've decided to protest the current state of Homestead with my wallet, so I will not be buying any homes or furnishings with crowns. Master crafting writs are still a joke. Way too much mat expenditure for the measly writ rewards, IF I'm even lucky enough to get a master writ. Lighting is still a total disaster. No functionality at all in the homes except for a target skeleton and attunable crafting station. In my view, Homestead is just not ready to be released.

esotericist

With regards to building limits, I recently came into ESO directly from attempting to play EverQuest 2. Which was honestly an awful game, with a moderately competent housing system attached. I'm much happier over here from a gameplay perspective, but looking at homestead makes me a bit disappointed.

They had two housing item limits, with three categories of items in housing.

Building blocks, placed items, and books.
The standard (without paying for upgrades) was 900 items each for building blocks and placed items, and most books didn't consume a slot at all.

You could actually put nearly all of the books you found in your housing, without them counting against any kind of limit.

With 'building blocks' covering most of the things that are used for making structures, and placed items covering most of the things you put inside structures, there was a massive amount of flexibility and room for creativity.

I'm terribly disappointed they didn't use a similar approach.

Iarao

7) More Inventory Nightmares
The last patch made most of the items in the game bound and created an inventory nightmare for many players. Now they are adding 2000+ more items into the game. Dealing with space is a huge problem.
SOLUTION: Add a new tab for furnishings that is nearly unlimited like the subscriber craft bag and doesn't take up inventory space. Give everyone the new tab. For free.
Players would benefit for obvious reasons and Zos, if you are reading this, your company would benefit by removing one of the obstacles to people taking out their credit card and buying a bunch of furnishings (which is obviously what you had in mind with this entire patch

objective of this is to push you to a sub for unlimited crafting bag, thereby freeing up your inventory space.

esotericist

Iarao wrote: »

7) More Inventory Nightmares
The last patch made most of the items in the game bound and created an inventory nightmare for many players. Now they are adding 2000+ more items into the game. Dealing with space is a huge problem.
SOLUTION: Add a new tab for furnishings that is nearly unlimited like the subscriber craft bag and doesn't take up inventory space. Give everyone the new tab. For free.
Players would benefit for obvious reasons and Zos, if you are reading this, your company would benefit by removing one of the obstacles to people taking out their credit card and buying a bunch of furnishings (which is obviously what you had in mind with this entire patch

objective of this is to push you to a sub for unlimited crafting bag, thereby freeing up your inventory space.

One of the people on the Homestead project also worked on the crafting bag, and she stated in the recent ESO Live that it's not feasible to 'just' do the same thing because they're different problems. The crafting bag is large quantities of a number of kinds of things, while a hypothetical furniture bag would be small quantities of a very large number of kinds of things.

What works for one doesn't work for the other; the crafting bag is a bounded list with a quantity attached. You literally cannot manage to get a couple thousand entries in the crafting bag, because there aren't that many crafting materials in the game.

They intend to add more furniture over time, so a furniture bag in the long run would be potentially unbounded if it worked the same way. Unbounded systems are bad bad news for backend engineering.

Not that I'm arguing against the need for furniture storage: this is genuinely a problem, and I hope they find a solution at some point. They just can't do it right now, and they especially can't do it that way.

Ashtaris

So exactly how hard would it be for them to make sure furniture didn't take up Inventory slots? Heck, they can even make it a new ESO+ perk since they are kinda getting the shaft with Morrowind. I mean, they really need to come up with something. With the amount of armor thats dropping in zones now, plus all the new schematics and furniture that will be taking up slots, inventory control will be another nightmare, even with the craft bags.

Ashtaris

..Deleted

willlienellson

Easy solution:

"We are adding over 2000 items to the game a couple months after making almost every gear BOP. We are giving every character 100 extra base inventory capacity. You're welcome. Now you have space to go buy stuff in the crown store. Win-win"

But no, as a general rule, Zos can't get out of it's own way.

DemonDruaga

Agree
It is like buying a car for 200k dollars that can't even drive, but look good
More functionality > shiny things

willlienellson

While I'm piling on the negativity,

Decorator Privileges Are a Joke.

You can't place items, only move existing items. Combined with how items are bound, it makes it basically impossible for two players to truly collaborate on a property.

Lets say a husband and wife each have an account and each has 2000 crowns on their respective accounts, he is DC and she is EP.

She can't buy (or place) furnishings for a property if he bought it. He can't give her (or place) achievement furnishings from the alliance if it's her house.

Sad arbitrary limitations is the theme of Homestead.

willlienellson

RIP.

This thread has been up for 26 days.

30 insightful
69 agree
32 awesome

Patch drops today....and we never got 1 token reply from @Zos

Jim_Pipp

willlienellson wrote: »

RIP.

This thread has been up for 26 days.

30 insightful
69 agree
32 awesome

Patch drops today....and we never got 1 token reply from @Zos

I made the first comment on this thread, saying I hoped this thread got the response it deserved. It has been incredibly popular and an unusually constructive discussion, a friend of mine who lurks on reddit but avoids these forums actually sent me a link to the reddit version telling me "you have to read this amazing post". So players and pts testers seem to have responded well. I hope that means ZOS is aware of these issues, even if I once hoped these issues could have been addressed before launch.

aetherial_heavenn

Having played the aging LOTRO, which had an unfinished housing system (and an improve housing thread that had 10000's of view and likes etc) I am feeling deja vu.

But that system let you buy storage and to upgrade your storage thru points (like crowns) even after you reached the max for gold.

The decoration placement system had problems but

1 There were guild houses, with permissions controlled by the leaders and whomever they nominated. So guildies could place decorations etc, use chests and you could party at the guild house.

2 A player could nominate friends to decorate, pay maintenance etc on their house. And only allow specified visitors or allow anyone inside.

3 You could place crafted furniture rugs painting that you bought from other players.

4 You could also place fishing and raid trophies and festival items and items bought for rep tokens. I remember doing the rep early on just for the Lorien bench, then for the house-cat. The Rohirrim furnishing were very popular. And the Gondorian kitchen items
ie they linked dailies rewards/rep tokens to housing items. People did raids over and over for the Draigoch statue and the unwelcome mat.*

5 The lighting was interactive.

6 In the mini housing update a couple of years ago, crafting stations were added.

This is from a game that is ten years old. If this was possible then, the queston is why did ESO introduce housing with so little functionality?


I like ESO. It's my new home but I wish housing was a bit more inspiring.

(*It's costume and it's music system were way ahead of their time too. But they got microtransaction/grind based and forgot about the group players and the core story adventure that made the game 'sticky'. ie people kept playing and paying to stay in touch with friends. Until they didn't. But that discussion is not for here.)

Moltyr

Great post! I find it truly sad that ZOS can't even acknowledge this. However, they have a history of 'knowing' issues they have developed, and releasing them all the same and with little improvement in the future.

ESO players want to love this game, ZOS won't let us.

Willard

Awesomeness!! Great post:)

JWKe

Housing as of right now is literally like ESO when it was first released where we couldn't loot the barrels and nothing could be picked up. Ya I know Morrowind is on the horizon and we should cut Zo$ some slack but the fact of the matter is that HOUSING atm is literally like being on a movie set with cardboard cut outs because there is hardly any interactivity.

The way my mount just stands there and go through the same motion is also SUPER awkward. It's almost as if that was just a rough draft and Zo$ has yet to add further touches to it. Also, the house im in is in a rather small instance and so I don't see why we can't look out the windows like the wall slits in the PvP keeps.

Sheyta

I agree

Prices are way overpriced

Well atleast make it soo You could.have storage vaults. in this.houses mansions

abit weird I have a house or a.mansion and and I cant have a.storage.room lol

willlienellson wrote: »

First, I want to congratulate Zos on a wonderful addition to the game. I'm absolutely thrilled with this patch. Both the variety of the homes and the ability to customize them is very exciting. However, there are some pretty obvious flaws that could EASILY be fixed to make the patch so much better.

1) Missing PvP Achievement Furnishings.
There is no furnishing for the Emperor SLAYER achievement or the Warlord slayer achievement. I know it takes a lot of dedication and effort to get emperor, but some players take great pride in their slayer achievements as well.
SOLUTION: A broken, soiled and damaged crown picked up from the battlefield after slaying the enemy emperor!
Nothing as grand as a throne, but still something very cool for players that are very proud of taking on these emperors with their powerful buffs often surrounded by many cohorts.

2) Surplus Siege Does Not Fire.
I had this vision of placing a banner of the enemy faction on the far wall of my compound and using it as a target for a bank of ballistas. Except they don't fire. At all.
SOLUTION: Make them work. It can't be hard. It would easier than purposefully breaking them as was done. I can't see the possible harm.
(Cool things arbitrarily made less useful for no reason is an ongoing theme)

3) Properties are Lifeless and Dead
It doesn't take very long before it dawns on you how hauntingly devoid of life these houses are. Nothing moves. Nothing. At all.
SOLUTION: Have the small non-combat animals that spawn everywhere else in Tamriel also spawn on our properties (squirrels, rabbits, crawlers, birds, etc)
I think this is the easiest possible solution because I'm sure this is just a “toggle” option for the Devs for each zone (new houses are zones).

4) All Animals are.....Lifeless and Dead
Okay, this is kinda the same thing, but mounts and pets don't move. Forget “wandering” - they don't so much as lay down, yawn, or shake their heads. Everything looks like taxidermy.
SOLUTION: If these are coded specifically to follow the players and don't have any pathing of their own, maybe Zos could give us furnishing that would act as a player-like "beacon" that we could place in select areas and the animals could "wander" to the beacons we place.

5) Price Too High....w/Limited Functionality
One argument I've read is that the largest and most expensive homes are going to be most frequently used as guild halls for people pooling their money. Bah! What kind of guild wants a guild hall where you can't even access the guild bank? Can't access the guild trader listing? A place with a merchant that can't even repair armor?
People are talking about having “auctions” in the manors. How are the leaders going to bank all those bids?
SOLUTION: Add existing funtionality BACK into the existing assistants that you already sell for big bucks in the crown store. There is no reason why my merchant or banker can't have full functionality AT LEAST INSIDE the home. At the very least, Zos should make the assistants act like full bankers/merchants while parked stationary inside the houses, even if they can't allow those features when summoned in the open world.

Note on prices: It's not about “having the money”. I can't justify spending 3 million gold on a house when I still need to port to city to access a guild bank, list items for sale, repair armor, etc. There is a big difference between 3 million for a useful, time saving central hub and useless pretty view.

6) Can't Sell Old/Unwanted Real Estate
I think both new and veteran players would be interested in the option of getting some kind of credit for unwanted housing instead of simply gathering more and more properties. I would think a newer player with 500k in the bank would be more likely to buy several houses and upgrade along the way if they could get some type of credit. Otherwise, I know at least some will simply ignore the feature completely until they save up enough money for their top choice. But this is bad for Zos also, because what happens if they lose interest in ESO between now and then. Zos should want to engage players at all ranges.
SOLUTION: Allow the player to sell real estate back to the game for 70% of what they paid initially or give them a credit towards an upgrade property.
Example: If you bought a home for 1.3 million in February you could get a 910k gold credit on your 3.8 million manor you finally buy six months later in August, making the manor cost only 3 millon but your TOTAL paid 4.2 million.

7) More Inventory Nightmares
The last patch made most of the items in the game bound and created an inventory nightmare for many players. Now they are adding 2000+ more items into the game. Dealing with space is a huge problem.
SOLUTION: Add a new tab for furnishings that is nearly unlimited like the subscriber craft bag and doesn't take up inventory space. Give everyone the new tab. For free.
Players would benefit for obvious reasons and Zos, if you are reading this, your company would benefit by removing one of the obstacles to people taking out their credit card and buying a bunch of furnishings (which is obviously what you had in mind with this entire patch

8) Cannot Port From Cyrodiil Wayshrines
I don't expect to be able to port from anywhere in Cyrodiil, but the actual Wayshrine you use to leave PvP will not let you port to your home. So, you still have to port to a city first. This is such a HUGE PIA. This is exactly what I mean by "obvious" functionality flaws. It's not very convenient to port to a city on the way to home to decon items when I can decon/sell/repair in the "stopover" city.
SOLUTION:Nuff said.

9) Item Limitations Should Not Be Tied to Home Size Only
Not only is this a big frustration, but it's also lost revenue for Zos. They miss so many opportunities.
I'm fine with having a base item cap that corresponds to the size of the home, but there should be ways to upgrade that cap with in-game gold or crowns...or both. Some players prefer a more cluttered look for roleplaying reasons or some people have elaborate plans for landscaping, etc.
SOLUTION: BagHousing Space Vendor. Pay gold to add X number of items to your total house limit. Zos, if you're reading this, you could also sell this for crowns. $$$

10) Hardly Any 'Found Items' Are Furnishings
I heard a rumor long ago that the stolen items introduced with the Legerdemain skill line would one day be useful for more than fencing, that they would be items we could use to furnish our homes. Pillows, games, paintings, dice, etc. etc.
Sadly, I've found no stolen items on the PTS that are actual furnishings. Even paintings can't be used as...paintings. Part of me thinks this is just a sad missed "obvious opportunity" and another part of me thinks Zos ACTIVELY REMOVED this feature from these items because they realized it might give someone an alternative to the massive gold sink and crown store push for a few furnishings.
SOLUTION: You don't have to make every single item a furnishing, but I think most of the blue or better quality stolen items that are furnishing-like (paintings, bowls, games) should be usable as furnishings. Otherwise it's going to be frustrating on a cellular level every time someone steals a decorative bowl they can't use and fences it.

11) Massive Gold Sink and Crown Store Push
It's just TOO MUCH. I want Zos to make money. I really do. ESO is great. It deserves to make money and I want to pay them, but this is a bridge too far. We've been playing for almost 3 years with almost nothing to buy, and now suddenly things cost so much that the vast majority of players couldn't buy if they had been saving for the whole 3 years! So, if I've blown all my gold for 3 years am I now to grind until 2020 for things that make me exited about housing today?
I think Zos is making a big bet on player enthusiasm maintaining a grind that I think is going to be enthusiasm CRUSHING. The actual costs of these houses are just the tip of the iceberg, which would be okay if either upfront cost OR the grind gave us additional functionality. Can't repair. Can't list items on a trader. Can't access the guild bank. Can't. Can't. Can't.
Meanwhile, it feels like functionality has been artificially removed from the game for profit. While we are grinding to make a 100k wine goblet, you will steal and fence 3 of them for 200g each.
I love this game. I love this update. I love the house I've picked out. But I'm very depressed at how much better this could be than it actually is.
I can't emphasize this enough. I have some plenty of in-game gold and plenty of crowns to start on the housing adventure, but I won't be buying ANY home when things go live until I truly understand the associated gold sink. If filling my house with items is more expensive and tedious than I can bare, then I'm not interested.
SOLUTION: Implement all of the things above and show the players that this patch isn't JUST about pushing people to the crown store. IF the houses had better functionality they would be a good value at their current price. IF they don't get more functionality, then they WOULD BE still tolerable at this price, IF you reduced the price/grind for the furnishings. As it stands now, the price of the entire "package" is way more than the value.

FINAL NOTE: Zos, I believe Homestead offers and opportunity for you to BOTH make tons of money AND make your players love the game for years to come. To take advantage of this opportunity I feel you MUST bring 1 of the 3 following variables more into balance. PRICE. FUNCTIONALITY. GRIND.
High prices with high functionality is okay. Grinding for things when they are functional is okay. If you would prefer to keep things less functional for some reason, then you must reduce the prices and grinds, or you will squander this opportunity imho.

EDIT: If you compare the tone of the beginning of this post with the final paragraph to Zos, I think you'll read an obvious souring in tone. I still like the Homestead update, but that is a pretty accurate reflection of a week spent exploring the limitations and expenses of this update. I think that's going to be a common theme after the update goes live to the general population unless Zos takes some steps to remedy some of these issues.

BTW,If some of this has already been covered I apologize, but I've been working on this post for several days.

NoFlash

why is housing/balance patch live with so many missed opportunities....

parkham

As with anything, give it 3 or 4 months.

I've been playing this game doing crafting and questing only for almost 4 months. Our two man group can't afford to buy the house we want. I figure by no more than six months time, we'll have the discretionary gold available to buy a large house. I would bet by six months time everything will be better in regards to housing.

The game has gotten better as time goes on. Granted, had major MAJOR problems with initial install and updates. (for example, one of our computers crashes now after the housing update).

The last thing I will say - if it was any game other than Elder Scrolls, I would have counted my losses and quit. This is just something for the studio to keep in mind.

TL;DR : Give it some time, and then buy or don't buy. Just like in real life.

KimoBitz

We need bards and stewards

LordTareq

Excellent topic. 100% agree with the topic starter.

Korinth

100% SPOT ON! ZOS...you need to listen!

ALSO: DONT require multiple crafting skills on ONE Blueprint!

Woodworker: Chairs, sofas, beds, dressers...etc
Clothier: Curtains, rugs, wall hangings....
Blacksmith: pots, pans, cooking items


WTH did you make this so damn complicated.

parkham

I'm just now starting to run into this problem as I collect furnishing blueprints and whatnot. We split crafting up with 3 characters (among 2 players) doing two crafts each.

It really helped on skill point management.

I suppose now we will need to start doing doing writs (up to 3 or 4) in the "secondary" crafts with the 3 toons and figure out a way to get the skill points needed. I'm guessing these secondary skills won't need to be above 4 or so though.

willlienellson

parkham wrote: »

I'm just now starting to run into this problem as I collect furnishing blueprints and whatnot. We split crafting up with 3 characters (among 2 players) doing two crafts each.

It really helped on skill point management.

I suppose now we will need to start doing doing writs (up to 3 or 4) in the "secondary" crafts with the 3 toons and figure out a way to get the skill points needed. I'm guessing these secondary skills won't need to be above 4 or so though.

You should be aware that writ vouchers are CHARACTER BOUND like alliance points. So even if you go through the trouble of cobbling together writs on multiple characters, you won't be able to pool the vouchers to spend.

It's really a horrible and absurd system.

Even if we accept everything else, there is no reason for them to be character bound instead of account bound.

Elsonso

willlienellson wrote: »

Even if we accept everything else, there is no reason for them to be character bound instead of account bound.

... other than it was the character that did the writ, so it is the character that gets the vouchers.

willlienellson

lordrichter wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

Even if we accept everything else, there is no reason for them to be character bound instead of account bound.

... other than it was the character that did the writ, so it is the character that gets the vouchers.

Okay, then it's the character that got the item from completing the dungeon so he should have to use it. It's the character that picked up the disguise, so he should have to wear it. It's the character that got the telvar stones from killing a boss, so only he should get to spend them. It's the character that got the gold from killing the monster, so he should have to spend it. How far should we extrapolate that logic?

You are literally the first person I have ever seen actually argue for character bound items/currency. Are you sure you're not just being contrarian because you're still upset over my other thread that had you posting like every couple hours? lol

The few existing things that are character bound in this game, like AP and sigils of retreat, are the subject of constant complaint. So, whether you actually like it, or you're just trolling, either way you're definitely the exception to the rule.

And as for the logic in your "reason" for why.... it's pretty silly.

SiliconShadow

The thing that bugs me the most is the broken things around the home:

Broken Tiles
Broken Pillars
Broken Plaster

etc etc

If I'm paying around 3million for a house I can afford to pay a stone mason and a plasterer. It makes no sense even immersion breaking at times.

arakis99ub17_ESO

Want a better auction house, better housing, and/or a much(!!!) better inventory system?

Play swtor.

Otherwise you have to suck it up, ZOS isn't going to change. The crappy design has been monitized.

Don't get me wrong, it's not all bad, tamerial one was great design. ESO is a darn fun game in many ways.

jmgrant44ub17_ESO

Korinth wrote: »

100% SPOT ON! ZOS...you need to listen!

ALSO: DONT require multiple crafting skills on ONE Blueprint!

Woodworker: Chairs, sofas, beds, dressers...etc
Clothier: Curtains, rugs, wall hangings....
Blacksmith: pots, pans, cooking items


WTH did you make this so damn complicated.

Everything will become clear if you just look at it though the Crown Store filter.

aeowulf

Shadowshire wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

Too tired to post much now but I agree with this. Especially that the items introduced with the Justice system to be sold to a fence should also be furniture.

From a purely moral perspective, and for its potential effects upon game play, that is not a good idea.

First, acquiring the ability to craft gear and/or consumables with their characters is time-consuming and complex enough that most players will not bother. (It also requires a significant number of Skill Points which most players would rather apply to other abilities instead.) Then there is the time and effort required to acquire the crafting materials, or to acquire the GP to buy them. Given the way that the Guild Store + Guild Trader system operates, there are only a few items which are sufficiently profitable to craft and sell for GP. Consequently, crafting specifically for characters of guild-mates aside, crafted items are more likely to be used for the benefit of the player's own characters, not for the characters of other players.

From reading the PTS Patch Notes which describe the process for crafting Homestead furnishings, there is no reason to believe that many players are likely to routinely craft them because they expect to profit by selling them for GP -- at least not by selling them through the Guild Store + Guild Trader system. The profit which most furnishing items might generate seems (to me) unlikely to be significant enough to make the time, effort, and expense of crafting them for sale worthwhile.

Granted, learning how to steal items from NPCs, and to profit from doing so, does require a player to spend time and effort, just as learning how to fight MoBs (or other player characters), or learning how to craft items, require it. And they will find it highly desirable to apply Skill Points for abilities in the Legerdemain category.

Nonetheless, allowing players to use any items which their characters steal to furnish their Homestead could have the effect of making the players whose characters craft furnishings, and/or buy them for GP -- not to mention those who buy furnishings with Crowns -- look like fools. Even if stolen items per se are different (from crafted and/or from Crown Store furnishing items), the "optics" would be undesirable if stolen items are equivalent with respect to fencing them for GP, or in "decorative value", or in having an actual use.

In the same vein, as far as I know, players will not be allowed to furnish their homesteads with items obtained as loot, although looted crafting materials can be used to make furnishings. However, any player may furnish their Homestead with some types of items acquired in the course of play, such as Trophies. Such items cannot be transferred to another player's character(s), thus cannot be used to furnish another player's Homestead.

That said: in my humble opinion, Zenimax Online does not want any serious competition between selling furnishings for Crowns (bought with Dollars), and players crafting furnishings to sell for GP. Allowing players to furnish Homesteads with items which their characters have successfully stolen, or looted, also would be competition for the Crown Store. In that respect, I am not a lawyer, but I suppose that Z.O. is not likely to be held to account in federal court for violating the US Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

Enough said.

Very valid points, completely agree - there is a way round it though You remove the launder feature from the fence and only allow 'stolen' items to be used in your house. These remain flagged as stolen, and if you are ever caught by a guard, not only do you loose the stolen items you are carrying but the ones used in your house too when it gets raided. Possibly limit it so guards only raid houses of the same faction.

Aeo

RoamingRiverElk

On Decorator Privileges:

Make a Decorator Plus category for those who you want to also be able to add non-bound furniture to your house!