Balance direction in Update 13

Akimbro · January 2017

BlackMadara wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.

Can we please stop this misinformation?

Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.

So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.

Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.

Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).

Edit: I will later post a screenshot.

Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.

2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.

I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?

NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.

Not saying that this isn't completely ridiculous, but technically it took him 7-10 seconds to kill you and you had 3-4 seconds to react (depending on lag. He buffed up in stealth, prepared a heavy, gap closed, casted ult, then casted his execute twice. Your time to react started at his gap close.

This next bit isn't really for you, but more for the people that don't like the crit nerf on procs.

How much impen do you have? If you have 2k impen (about 30% reduced crit damage) and assuming he is running a 1.72 crit modifier(shadow mundus), his crits still hit you for 40% more damage. That means that his Veli proc would do 6175 damage (if my understanding that crit resist reduction in damage isn't multiplicative but additive) instead of 8645 damage. That's 2500 less damage.

All of this still doesn't really excuse that a 45k health character died that fast. Just goes to show the damage potential in this game. Its unhealthy.

That's essentially why there is so much heat over this change. The proc crit removal was delivered as a response to the extremely high burst potential problem in PVP. Whether some proc sets are overpowered or poorly designed is a different issue. This change doesn't address the burst damage issue that it was intended to address. It's like trying to make one of the answers from your Chem homework a solution for one of your Phys homework questions.

itscompton · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

Go ahead and keep playing but don't optimize the game based on your own needs. You might have slowed down but at 43 I can still quick twitch pretty well thank you and don't need the game "simplified". How the heck does removing the stun from Blazing Spear simply anything for an older gamer anyway?

technohic · January 2017

magorim wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.

Hi!

I got killed by procsets. Again. Like everyday. Like a lot of players. But I'm kinda done at this point. Especially since we know that you basicly don't change anything. Yeah they won't crit but hey they still do damage right?

Well and that damage, Rich. That damage is wrong. It's wrong how high it is. It's wrong how you apply it. It's wrong that you can even stack it. It's just ... wrong. And crits are not the problem (they make it worse, tho).

It's wrong how high it is:
3.5k heavy attack, 6.1k seleneproc, 5.4k dawnbreaker in less than one second according to Recount and not one hit was a crit. It was the damage I did to a player in Azura and I'm not specced for high damage (I was testing it after getting a shoulder two days ago, never used procsets before). There are far better examples with a lot higher damage. But it still shows that the damage of the proc is huge. Hell, it did even more damage than my ultimate, in a very short timeframe (less than one second according to Recount).

It's wrong how you apply it:
You can light attack and proc high damage. It costs nothing. Do I really have to point out how broken that actually is? If you want to counter it with a heal for example you would have to use a skill that costs magicka or stamina. How is that balanced? And the thing is. You won't fight just one player. And players won't just light attack you. Some are even creative. They craft alchemist, equip a lightning staff and heavy attack you. Proccing Skoria left and right. Jesusbeam. I won't start with that one. But jesusbeam and skoria? Every Xv1 group will love you (that's how you win in Cyrodiil after all, right? Hi DE! Hi DG!).
Oh and if you want to be really skilled (evil imho), equip ressource poisens and lightning heavy attack outnumbered players.

It's wrong that you can stack it:
Well, we talked about high damage, how it basicly costs no ressources and doesn't require any player skill. Guess what. You can stack procsets/damage. And at this point I won't give any examples. Just visit Cyrodiil and experience it yourself. It's sad and far from fun.

TL;DR
Procsets are poop. On top of other kinda smaller poop in PvP. Especially combined with that kinda smaller poop while it's not zergy and not laggy at all. So please, Rich. Please do something or I'll leave and quit the game (that I'll quit should be the ultimate argument here, well, seriously tho, rethink/redesign/rebalance procsets it can't stay the way it is).

I'm amazed this has to be explained.

BlackMadara · January 2017

Akimbro wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.

Can we please stop this misinformation?

Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.

So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.

Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.

Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).

Edit: I will later post a screenshot.

Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.

2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.

I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?

NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.

Not saying that this isn't completely ridiculous, but technically it took him 7-10 seconds to kill you and you had 3-4 seconds to react (depending on lag. He buffed up in stealth, prepared a heavy, gap closed, casted ult, then casted his execute twice. Your time to react started at his gap close.

This next bit isn't really for you, but more for the people that don't like the crit nerf on procs.

How much impen do you have? If you have 2k impen (about 30% reduced crit damage) and assuming he is running a 1.72 crit modifier(shadow mundus), his crits still hit you for 40% more damage. That means that his Veli proc would do 6175 damage (if my understanding that crit resist reduction in damage isn't multiplicative but additive) instead of 8645 damage. That's 2500 less damage.

All of this still doesn't really excuse that a 45k health character died that fast. Just goes to show the damage potential in this game. Its unhealthy.

That's essentially why there is so much heat over this change. The proc crit removal was delivered as a response to the extremely high burst potential problem in PVP. Whether some proc sets are overpowered or poorly designed is a different issue. This change doesn't address the burst damage issue that it was intended to address. It's like trying to make one of the answers from your Chem homework a solution for one of your Phys homework questions.

It minorly addresses the burst issue in PvP. I still believe the change was focused for PvE. META sets are over performing. A blanket change does seem lazy, but it does bring proc sets scaling more in line with other stats. Damage for proc sets are only affected by crit and penetration. Penetration doesn't increase the damage of the tooltip, but crit does.

BlackMadara · January 2017

magorim wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.

Hi!

I got killed by procsets. Again. Like everyday. Like a lot of players. But I'm kinda done at this point. Especially since we know that you basicly don't change anything. Yeah they won't crit but hey they still do damage right?

Well and that damage, Rich. That damage is wrong. It's wrong how high it is. It's wrong how you apply it. It's wrong that you can even stack it. It's just ... wrong. And crits are not the problem (they make it worse, tho).

It's wrong how high it is:
3.5k heavy attack, 6.1k seleneproc, 5.4k dawnbreaker in less than one second according to Recount and not one hit was a crit. It was the damage I did to a player in Azura and I'm not specced for high damage (I was testing it after getting a shoulder two days ago, never used procsets before). There are far better examples with a lot higher damage. But it still shows that the damage of the proc is huge. Hell, it did even more damage than my ultimate, in a very short timeframe (less than one second according to Recount).

It's wrong how you apply it:
You can light attack and proc high damage. It costs nothing. Do I really have to point out how broken that actually is? If you want to counter it with a heal for example you would have to use a skill that costs magicka or stamina. How is that balanced? And the thing is. You won't fight just one player. And players won't just light attack you. Some are even creative. They craft alchemist, equip a lightning staff and heavy attack you. Proccing Skoria left and right. Jesusbeam. I won't start with that one. But jesusbeam and skoria? Every Xv1 group will love you (that's how you win in Cyrodiil after all, right? Hi DE! Hi DG!).
Oh and if you want to be really skilled (evil imho), equip ressource poisens and lightning heavy attack outnumbered players.

It's wrong that you can stack it:
Well, we talked about high damage, how it basicly costs no ressources and doesn't require any player skill. Guess what. You can stack procsets/damage. And at this point I won't give any examples. Just visit Cyrodiil and experience it yourself. It's sad and far from fun.

TL;DR
Procsets are poop. On top of other kinda smaller poop in PvP. Especially combined with that kinda smaller poop while it's not zergy and not laggy at all. So please, Rich. Please do something or I'll leave and quit the game (that I'll quit should be the ultimate argument here, well, seriously tho, rethink/redesign/rebalance procsets it can't stay the way it is).

I, for one, believe that skoria is balanced. It's only an 8% chance on dot ticks. In order for it to be reliable and worth the two slots, you have to build with dots on mind. If you don't, not many meteors, and if you do, meteors almost on cd.

Thats how proc sets should work. I think people are getting to hyped up by the op sets and are just blaming all of them no matter what. Proc sets should be balance by having high damage behind set conditions, like skoria, or low damage with high proc chance or less stringent conditions.

Minalan · January 2017

BlackMadara wrote: »

magorim wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.

Hi!

I got killed by procsets. Again. Like everyday. Like a lot of players. But I'm kinda done at this point. Especially since we know that you basicly don't change anything. Yeah they won't crit but hey they still do damage right?

Well and that damage, Rich. That damage is wrong. It's wrong how high it is. It's wrong how you apply it. It's wrong that you can even stack it. It's just ... wrong. And crits are not the problem (they make it worse, tho).

It's wrong how high it is:
3.5k heavy attack, 6.1k seleneproc, 5.4k dawnbreaker in less than one second according to Recount and not one hit was a crit. It was the damage I did to a player in Azura and I'm not specced for high damage (I was testing it after getting a shoulder two days ago, never used procsets before). There are far better examples with a lot higher damage. But it still shows that the damage of the proc is huge. Hell, it did even more damage than my ultimate, in a very short timeframe (less than one second according to Recount).

It's wrong how you apply it:
You can light attack and proc high damage. It costs nothing. Do I really have to point out how broken that actually is? If you want to counter it with a heal for example you would have to use a skill that costs magicka or stamina. How is that balanced? And the thing is. You won't fight just one player. And players won't just light attack you. Some are even creative. They craft alchemist, equip a lightning staff and heavy attack you. Proccing Skoria left and right. Jesusbeam. I won't start with that one. But jesusbeam and skoria? Every Xv1 group will love you (that's how you win in Cyrodiil after all, right? Hi DE! Hi DG!).
Oh and if you want to be really skilled (evil imho), equip ressource poisens and lightning heavy attack outnumbered players.

It's wrong that you can stack it:
Well, we talked about high damage, how it basicly costs no ressources and doesn't require any player skill. Guess what. You can stack procsets/damage. And at this point I won't give any examples. Just visit Cyrodiil and experience it yourself. It's sad and far from fun.

TL;DR
Procsets are poop. On top of other kinda smaller poop in PvP. Especially combined with that kinda smaller poop while it's not zergy and not laggy at all. So please, Rich. Please do something or I'll leave and quit the game (that I'll quit should be the ultimate argument here, well, seriously tho, rethink/redesign/rebalance procsets it can't stay the way it is).

I, for one, believe that skoria is balanced. It's only an 8% chance on dot ticks. In order for it to be reliable and worth the two slots, you have to build with dots on mind. If you don't, not many meteors, and if you do, meteors almost on cd.

Thats how proc sets should work. I think people are getting to hyped up by the op sets and are just blaming all of them no matter what. Proc sets should be balance by having high damage behind set conditions, like skoria, or low damage with high proc chance or less stringent conditions.

So you suggest capping the proc rate for two piece sets at 8%? Not a bad idea, something has to happen with Selene's, Velidreth, and Tremor scale.

What about the five piece set bonuses though? You sacrifice a lot more slotting those.

Joy_Division · January 2017

BlackMadara wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.

Can we please stop this misinformation?

Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.

So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.

Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.

Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).

Edit: I will later post a screenshot.

Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.

2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.

I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?

NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.

Not saying that this isn't completely ridiculous, but technically it took him 7-10 seconds to kill you and you had 3-4 seconds to react (depending on lag. He buffed up in stealth, prepared a heavy, gap closed, casted ult, then casted his execute twice. Your time to react started at his gap close.

This next bit isn't really for you, but more for the people that don't like the crit nerf on procs.

How much impen do you have? If you have 2k impen (about 30% reduced crit damage) and assuming he is running a 1.72 crit modifier(shadow mundus), his crits still hit you for 40% more damage. That means that his Veli proc would do 6175 damage (if my understanding that crit resist reduction in damage isn't multiplicative but additive) instead of 8645 damage. That's 2500 less damage.

All of this still doesn't really excuse that a 45k health character died that fast. Just goes to show the damage potential in this game. Its unhealthy.

I get it you're trying to make this sound reasonable, but just stop. No he technically didn't take 10 seconds to kill me. If you think my time to react started when he started he gap close, you don't know how NBs gank. Google animation cancelling and then watch any Sribes video. Extended ritual procs every 2 seconds ... it didn't proc again before I died. I got stunned. I cc broke. I died before heal went off. If this didn't happen, I wouldn't lie about it. Some executes in this game are "instant," in that if the skill will kill you, you die before the animations play out. Everyone thinks this is just an RD issue but ask any sorc who use Mage's Wrath. Targets explode before I'm even done pressing the button.

Yes I had >2K Crit resistance and yes damage is out of control. Heavy armor is also out of control. In ZoS's weird way this is somehow "balanced" because offense and defense are both strong, but it's just a stupid arms race of who can abuse what mechanic the most. It's dumb. I am very disappointed ZoS did nothing about this and I wish people would stop apologizing over these abusive mechanics or ZoS's inaction.

Rohamad_Ali · January 2017

Tested Sorc today and did not enjoy the the change to curse at all . That was a major change to the way Sorc fights with casting interruption . That is hard to get use too .

Needless to say testing Magic nightblade was pointless as it was already a mess with little dps . The cost increase on strife only made resources more of a pain for those stacking spell damage instead of regen . Spell damage was still subpar to stamina weapon damage .

Made a stam blade Proctato and that still kills everything fast . Can't dodge as well but still easy mode .

Neoakropolis · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Update 13 has been out on the PTS for almost a week now and there’s been a lot of good feedback and questions posted with regards to the balance changes. I wanted to take a few moments to briefly discuss the overall direction for these changes so you can hopefully start to see why these changes are occurring.

For Update 13, our overall goal was to lessen the gap between the top and bottom. (in terms of overall damage output, coordinated vs. uncoordinated, small and large scale PVE & PVP) This doesn’t mean all classes are perfectly equal in all ways or that we want to remove skill from the game. We want to establish a solid baseline so that we can better tune and tweak balance. For this update we attacked this problem from multiple angles by doing the following:
Lowering the ceiling on the top damage

Raising the floor on the bottom damage

Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

Some of you will probably ask how the above goals translate into the changes we made. Here are some notes on a couple of the more hotly debated ones so you can see how they fit into the bigger picture:
Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.

Stun Removal on Blazing Spear – This change falls into the “simplify” category. We increased the duration of the damage on this ability to simplify the rotation. In addition we removed the stun component. Now the morph choices are more damage or more resources and disorient. (CC)

Radiant Destruction – This one is definitely in the “lower the ceiling” category. It was strong in both PVE and PVP and needed adjustment.

Haunting Curse – This one falls into the “simplify” category. The goal was to free up globals for more abilities to be cast with this change. (i.e. – every 10.5 seconds you get to use 3 more abilities) @Alpheu5 has a pretty great image that illustrates this change in this thread.

I didn't touch on every change or class, but I hope that sheds some light into how and why we've made some of the changes we've made. We have a lot more balance changes planned, but due to how our build cycle works, most of them won't make the next PTS build - they should hopefully make PTS3 though.

It should also be noted that what is on PTS now is our first pass at these changes. We’re evaluating all of them and will make adjustments based on both feedback and data collected, so please continue to test them on PTS and give feedback.

-rich

My pvp group was expecting REAL balance changes and instead lol'd at the patch notes.. Camelot Unchained can't come fast enough. TBH, we can deal with all the proctatos, sorc this, templar that... It's the LAG and Framedrops that are the real balance issue here.. How about doing something to fix those? The game is so much easier to play when your skills actually work.

Mojmir · January 2017

Minalan wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

magorim wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.

Hi!

I got killed by procsets. Again. Like everyday. Like a lot of players. But I'm kinda done at this point. Especially since we know that you basicly don't change anything. Yeah they won't crit but hey they still do damage right?

Well and that damage, Rich. That damage is wrong. It's wrong how high it is. It's wrong how you apply it. It's wrong that you can even stack it. It's just ... wrong. And crits are not the problem (they make it worse, tho).

It's wrong how high it is:
3.5k heavy attack, 6.1k seleneproc, 5.4k dawnbreaker in less than one second according to Recount and not one hit was a crit. It was the damage I did to a player in Azura and I'm not specced for high damage (I was testing it after getting a shoulder two days ago, never used procsets before). There are far better examples with a lot higher damage. But it still shows that the damage of the proc is huge. Hell, it did even more damage than my ultimate, in a very short timeframe (less than one second according to Recount).

It's wrong how you apply it:
You can light attack and proc high damage. It costs nothing. Do I really have to point out how broken that actually is? If you want to counter it with a heal for example you would have to use a skill that costs magicka or stamina. How is that balanced? And the thing is. You won't fight just one player. And players won't just light attack you. Some are even creative. They craft alchemist, equip a lightning staff and heavy attack you. Proccing Skoria left and right. Jesusbeam. I won't start with that one. But jesusbeam and skoria? Every Xv1 group will love you (that's how you win in Cyrodiil after all, right? Hi DE! Hi DG!).
Oh and if you want to be really skilled (evil imho), equip ressource poisens and lightning heavy attack outnumbered players.

It's wrong that you can stack it:
Well, we talked about high damage, how it basicly costs no ressources and doesn't require any player skill. Guess what. You can stack procsets/damage. And at this point I won't give any examples. Just visit Cyrodiil and experience it yourself. It's sad and far from fun.

TL;DR
Procsets are poop. On top of other kinda smaller poop in PvP. Especially combined with that kinda smaller poop while it's not zergy and not laggy at all. So please, Rich. Please do something or I'll leave and quit the game (that I'll quit should be the ultimate argument here, well, seriously tho, rethink/redesign/rebalance procsets it can't stay the way it is).

I, for one, believe that skoria is balanced. It's only an 8% chance on dot ticks. In order for it to be reliable and worth the two slots, you have to build with dots on mind. If you don't, not many meteors, and if you do, meteors almost on cd.

Thats how proc sets should work. I think people are getting to hyped up by the op sets and are just blaming all of them no matter what. Proc sets should be balance by having high damage behind set conditions, like skoria, or low damage with high proc chance or less stringent conditions.

So you suggest capping the proc rate for two piece sets at 8%? Not a bad idea, something has to happen with Selene's, Velidreth, and Tremor scale.

What about the five piece set bonuses though? You sacrifice a lot more slotting those.

This, we were in a decent place with skoria,nierenth,Kenai as compliments to our builds,the crutch was seen on pts when selenes,velidreth all pointed to insanity.

old_mufasa · January 2017

So where does the nerf to magblades fall under... increase costs of our spam spell... while buffing nothing really.. while we sit at the bottom of the pve dps... Not sure how this falls under how you're categorizing the balance changes...

magorim · January 2017

BlackMadara wrote: »

magorim wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.

Hi!

I got killed by procsets. Again. Like everyday. Like a lot of players. But I'm kinda done at this point. Especially since we know that you basicly don't change anything. Yeah they won't crit but hey they still do damage right?

Well and that damage, Rich. That damage is wrong. It's wrong how high it is. It's wrong how you apply it. It's wrong that you can even stack it. It's just ... wrong. And crits are not the problem (they make it worse, tho).

It's wrong how high it is:
3.5k heavy attack, 6.1k seleneproc, 5.4k dawnbreaker in less than one second according to Recount and not one hit was a crit. It was the damage I did to a player in Azura and I'm not specced for high damage (I was testing it after getting a shoulder two days ago, never used procsets before). There are far better examples with a lot higher damage. But it still shows that the damage of the proc is huge. Hell, it did even more damage than my ultimate, in a very short timeframe (less than one second according to Recount).

It's wrong how you apply it:
You can light attack and proc high damage. It costs nothing. Do I really have to point out how broken that actually is? If you want to counter it with a heal for example you would have to use a skill that costs magicka or stamina. How is that balanced? And the thing is. You won't fight just one player. And players won't just light attack you. Some are even creative. They craft alchemist, equip a lightning staff and heavy attack you. Proccing Skoria left and right. Jesusbeam. I won't start with that one. But jesusbeam and skoria? Every Xv1 group will love you (that's how you win in Cyrodiil after all, right? Hi DE! Hi DG!).
Oh and if you want to be really skilled (evil imho), equip ressource poisens and lightning heavy attack outnumbered players.

It's wrong that you can stack it:
Well, we talked about high damage, how it basicly costs no ressources and doesn't require any player skill. Guess what. You can stack procsets/damage. And at this point I won't give any examples. Just visit Cyrodiil and experience it yourself. It's sad and far from fun.

TL;DR
Procsets are poop. On top of other kinda smaller poop in PvP. Especially combined with that kinda smaller poop while it's not zergy and not laggy at all. So please, Rich. Please do something or I'll leave and quit the game (that I'll quit should be the ultimate argument here, well, seriously tho, rethink/redesign/rebalance procsets it can't stay the way it is).

I, for one, believe that skoria is balanced. It's only an 8% chance on dot ticks. In order for it to be reliable and worth the two slots, you have to build with dots on mind. If you don't, not many meteors, and if you do, meteors almost on cd.

Thats how proc sets should work. I think people are getting to hyped up by the op sets and are just blaming all of them no matter what. Proc sets should be balance by having high damage behind set conditions, like skoria, or low damage with high proc chance or less stringent conditions.

Fine. Come over to me and apply your DOTs, use your ressources but don't stand behind 20 people just heavy attack with an unblockable and undodgeable mechanic that even restores ressources while I waste mine to heal, kite or even try to run away (now you might not be doing it but I hope you understand). How is that balanced? Free high damage should not be a thing.

Laggus · January 2017

Dracane wrote: »

So I suppose we can expect light armor buffs, so that it is more viable in pvp and actually makes up for the squishiness ?
Either way, armor types need adjustment, but others have explained this already.

Seriously..you think Sorcs require buffing in PVP! They are perhaps the strongest class in PvP when played correctly. Most Sorcs I see have 25k shields that do not take crit damage and can be recast before their HP is even touched.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2017

itscompton wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

Go ahead and keep playing but don't optimize the game based on your own needs. You might have slowed down but at 43 I can still quick twitch pretty well thank you and don't need the game "simplified". How the heck does removing the stun from Blazing Spear simply anything for an older gamer anyway?

Simplification isn't for you. It's helping the power creep and rampant complication of rotation for -everyone-. He's not monopolizing the game for older gamers or himself.

People will take any excuse to keep from admitting what they want is to be better than other people.

Sugaroverdose · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

Than you'll loose to someone who have better reaction and decides faster.
Pretty narrow view is ruining game to make other one, which plays for you removing any player progression, if you think that it's necessary just open additional megaserver with "casual" battle system copied from "Nier: Automata"

Lucky28 · January 2017

Sureshawt wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert

Thanks for communicating your direction and vision for the game. I know it has to be a tough balancing act to keep it fun and competitive for new and experienced players. I applaud the effort and hope the changes achieve those goals.

However, I'm a 50 year old MMO player going all the way back to Ultima Online and I take a bit of umbrage at your comment about needing the game to be simplified.

My reflexes may be a bit slower but my experience, judgement and judicious use of skills make up for the slower reflexes and still allow me to compete and have a ton of fun playing ESO.

I'm mostly concerned about the stacking of PROC set damage without a global CD. I'm not convinced the change to the crit damage factor will make much difference but will see how it goes.

Even at the age of 50 I'm not so old that I need my gear to do my fighting for me.

Also I will never feel good about a fight I win because of lucky damage off of stacked proc sets. Can you explain to me where any skill whatsoever is required?

i dunno. one of the main reason i re-rolled from sorc was because of the changes to surge. i love crit builds. with that said, the changes to proc sets i really dislike, it takes and entire build and playstyle and just gives it the finger so, i dunno.

i only play magicka and i have zero interest in stacking proc sets that *** is lame and it needs to go, but this change doesn't address it.

MalakithAlamahdi · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

I doubt that's what he means. He means dumbing something down and make it more simple also removes a fun part from games. Easy games with a lack of depth usually get boring really fast. ESO was quite good in this regard and we'd like to keep it that way.

I actually like playing with older gamers, I can't stand the childish mentality a lot of younger people have in video games.

Derra · January 2017

BlackMadara wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.

Can we please stop this misinformation?

Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.

So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.

Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.

Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).

Edit: I will later post a screenshot.

Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.

2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.

I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?

NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.

Not saying that this isn't completely ridiculous, but technically it took him 7-10 seconds to kill you and you had 3-4 seconds to react (depending on lag. He buffed up in stealth, prepared a heavy, gap closed, casted ult, then casted his execute twice. Your time to react started at his gap close.

This next bit isn't really for you, but more for the people that don't like the crit nerf on procs.

How much impen do you have? If you have 2k impen (about 30% reduced crit damage) and assuming he is running a 1.72 crit modifier(shadow mundus), his crits still hit you for 40% more damage. That means that his Veli proc would do 6175 damage (if my understanding that crit resist reduction in damage isn't multiplicative but additive) instead of 8645 damage. That's 2500 less damage.

All of this still doesn't really excuse that a 45k health character died that fast. Just goes to show the damage potential in this game. Its unhealthy.

You have not really any idea how that was executed do you? Like you get the concept but how it´s working in practice you don´t understand.

Ambush does not decloak your character and has an animationtime of 0.8s meaning you can instantly fire the next attack when you´re at your target. The heavyattack was a bow attack prechanneled to the ambush. His reaction time starts with the incapacatating strike that´s hitting him at the same time as the heavy bow attack and the ambush. One of those attacks puts the NB out of stealth.
From that point on he has two gcds to react. But he is stunned. 1 gcd (meaning one second is consumed by breaking that stun). Effectively that leaves him with 1 gcd of reaction time. If he has even the slightest delay, the server is lagging or his breakfree bugs out he effectively can´t do anything before dying.
The earliest possible point where he could have broken free from the stun was with the first hit of killers blade.

The fact that you think the reaction time starts with the ambush shows your knowledge on stealth and ganking is basically nonexistant.

BlackMadara · January 2017

@Minalan I think the same principle should apply. Stronger proc, harder to get to proc.

@Joy_Division Ah, I didn't know about the execute thing. Good info, thanks. For the record, yes, the ganker himself took longer than 2 seconds to kill you. I'm considering buffs and preparation. He is also obviously built to do this. Damage is still ridiculously high, and it needs to be toned down. I believe that NB get their stealth attack bonus for more than the first attack from invis, if they combo fast enough with how ambush's teleport mechanic works. This should change. It'll help a little, not a not, but a little.

@magorim I think that's more of a problem with AvAvA. If someone is just spamming RD on you, and they get a skoria proc, that's just luck in all honesty. It isn't a problem with skoria. Again, it's only an 8% chance on dot ticks.

@Derra Like I said, depending on lag. Before you see the animation of ambush hitting you, you still see the effects of that and the heavy attack. In my explanation of what that guy did to pull off that combi, I stated he had to prepare the heavy, I know how heavy ganks work. I also stated that this was a technical breakdown. Technically, you would see the effects of the heavy and ambush first, then see the ganker incap (first time you may actually see him), then two killer's blade. This is basically a perfect scenario with no hitches server side or for the users rig. I have had ganks where I was hit by the incap, died and the enemy was able to restealth without me actually seeing him. I just saw the red wisp of him reentering cloak. So yes, I do know how this was executed. Thought that was apparent from my breakdown of how the ganker prepared for the gank but ok.

Derra · January 2017

@BlackMadara well i don´t understand how you can claim someone has 3 or 4 seconds of reactiontime when you know that just from looking at the recap and the knowledge of ambush + heavy + incap hitting within a timeframe 0.3 seconds - the best possible outcome of reaction time is two seconds from there. With one second being consumed to breakfree.

Also on crit modifiers I´ll say as much: My sorc crits for 172% dmg without using the shadow. A NB using shadow should be around 200% (before impen).

BlackMadara · January 2017

Derra wrote: »

@BlackMadara well i don´t understand how you can claim someone has 3 or 4 seconds of reactiontime when you know that just from looking at the recap and the knowledge of ambush + heavy + incap hitting within a timeframe 0.3 seconds - the best possible outcome of reaction time is two seconds from there. With one second being consumed to breakfree.

Also you need to reevaluate what you know about critical modifiers. I´ll say as much: My sorc crits for 172% dmg without using the shadow. A NB using shadow should be around 200%.

Damage and stun hit(1), incap(2), killer's blade(3), killers blade(4) kill. Perfect scenario with low ping. I didn't know that killing blow apply before actual cast animation begins. So that's my 3-4. It's actually 2-3, again in low ping, lag free zone.

I low balled the crit modifier to show that even minimal effort in crit damage bonuses can equate to higher crit damage than a lot of people believe.

Derra · January 2017

Heavyattack and Ambush hits together with incap. They do not hit on two seperate gcds unless the gank was absolutely terribly executed.
You start of with 1 = 2 and have broken free when 3 hits you under absolute perfect conditions.

MalakithAlamahdi · January 2017

ku5h wrote: »

hassubhai wrote: »

As someone who plays exclusively plays pvp games i can tell you one things which must remain to keep the pvp successful there is one factor. That factor is skill, skill difference is what makes pvp. The entire reason players even pit themselves against eachother is as a test of skill. Ofcourse this isnt the case for some on and off pvp players but anyone who has any serious interest in pvp values skill difference over anything else.

So why are we catering towards new players, for what reason? I seriously am missing the logic and would be extremely grateful if zos could explain why they want to lower the skill ceiling and floor. Nothing good ever comes from oversimplifying. Make things require skill and effort, i seriously just dont understand why anyone would think that a new non experienced player should win a fight vs a much better player just because of their armour or how forgiving the game mechanics are.

It's because we live in a "Even a little fat kid deserves a trophy" society now. Consolation trophies and all that.
Remember when trophies were reserved for very best of the best!? Those days are gone, God forbid we hurt someones feelings because he suck at something. Safe space and all that.

Ikr. I'm a very optimistic person but this makes me want to kill myself.

MalakithAlamahdi · January 2017

Don't worry, some people are happy with this update.

magorim · January 2017

BlackMadara wrote: »

@magorim I think that's more of a problem with AvAvA. If someone is just spamming RD on you, and they get a skoria proc, that's just luck in all honesty. It isn't a problem with skoria. Again, it's only an 8% chance on dot ticks.

I was talking about lightning heavy attacks in my last comment. They are free/don't cost ressources and so is the proc. People should use ressources/skills to get a chance for a proc and not light or heavy attacks. That's what I mean.

Tavore1138 · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

I'm *just* the right side of 50 so I'll freely admit I have some issues with slow hands and the skill order/bar swaps/ weaves needed for the optimal output for my dw/bow build and I have to say I appreciate the intentions but I don't see anything in this set of changes that is going to make life any better for me in terms of simplifying my dps rotations?

What I can see is...

Mild reduction in DW output.
Sizeable reduction in dps if I use proc sets because crit hits are a major part of most builds so reducing crit is not a small reduction in sustained output.
Additional reduction in crit damage from trap changes.
Still have the penalties of melee build and having to be in close to the target rather than being able to dps safely from out range of many of the mechanics.
Nothing to make bow dps inherently viable on it's own.

Overall a probable hit on what was at best (for me) 28-33k dps back down to the teens and low 20's.

It's a bit frustrating to have worked on gear and rotation for these things and to be starting to get to the point where at least 2 or 3 of the vet trials are feasible without needing to be carried only to have changes like this come along and set you back again.

Having had the fun drain out of PvP due to the long periods of cheats running free and then the combination of procs and destro ultis making for a really boring meta it's sad to see 'balance' being applied with what seems like a slight lack of grasp of how people play the game.

This change seems like it will probably have minimal impact on the pros but rather hurt those who aspire to at least be viable in the harder endgame content.

Pallio · January 2017

Straight down the toilet?

BlackMadara · January 2017

magorim wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

@magorim I think that's more of a problem with AvAvA. If someone is just spamming RD on you, and they get a skoria proc, that's just luck in all honesty. It isn't a problem with skoria. Again, it's only an 8% chance on dot ticks.

I was talking about lightning heavy attacks in my last comment. They are free/don't cost ressources and so is the proc. People should use ressources/skills to get a chance for a proc and not light or heavy attacks. That's what I mean.

Ah. It make since if it was only on dots from skills. That would also eliminate poisons being able to proc it.

Joy_Division · January 2017

Derra wrote: »

Heavyattack and Ambush hits together with incap. They do not hit on two seperate gcds unless the gank was absolutely terribly executed.
You start of with 1 = 2 and have broken free when 3 hits you under absolute perfect conditions.

This is correct. And the Death is instant on some executes.

Lord_Wrath · January 2017

Thanks for explaining, Rich. However, shouldn't this info be given with patch notes? We need this kind of communication more often!