(Update 13) Dragon/Coagulating blood change is not a good idea. (OPEN WORLD PvP)

Quantum_V · January 2017

Hello there,

INTRO:

So as most of you guys already know, patch notes revealed a change to the skills Coagulating Blood, also known as the 'oh ***' heal for magicka DKs. As stated on the Patch Notes:

Coagulating Blood (Dragon Blood morph): This morph now heals you for 33% of your missing Magicka instead of 33% of your missing Health.

Firstly, lets understand how the old morph works.. Dragon Blood, as most of us know, is not a good heal as it is right now - it's a relatively expsensive heal that doesn't do much except dump your magicka and on same rare ocasions, it can save your life after spamming it a couple of times just in order to get bats or get that fat Burning Embers healing proc. Lets put in some numbers here.
From now on, we'll be thinking of a 'standard' (I know this is a generalization, but lets work with this) magicka DK with the following stats: 27k Health, 40k Magicka, 15k stamina.

CURRENT STATE

As of now, Coagulating blood is mostly going to be used once you're at ~20% health, in order to have a 'proper missing health pool' to heal from. Sitting at 20% health, means that you'll be missing 21,6k health, 33% of that (yes you can get this to be a little higher on your tooltip, but for the sake of simplicity lets keep it like this) is 7.1k, applied with battle spirit, it's a total of 3.5k heal. Honestly, that's not a TERRIBLE heal, but I've got stamDK friends that manage to get 3.5k VIGOR TICKS.. Now, in a extreme case scenario, you're sitting at 5% health, which means 25.6k missing health, which is 8.4k heal, applied with battle spirit, 4.2k max heal. With this, we can conclude that Coagulating Blood is not in a good spot in this current patch.

Now, driving a little off topic, some people might say that that's fair, 'cause we can get heals from other sources like burning embers and power lashes, and while that's true, thouse are all unreliable heals in open world. A comparison to that would be telling a stamina class to run only with rally as their source of healing, fat big heal. 'Oh, but mDKs are tanky, so they don't need to heal as much' --> Everybody is with heavy armor, being tanky, even though mDKs are good at it, is not a uniqueness to us that makes us viable in open world solo PvP.

AFTER PATCH NOTES

Now lets get back on track, lets analyse the changes done and think about them. Now, you restore your health based on your MISSING MAGICKA - at first glance, it might seem like a good idea, because your normally have a higher magicka pool compared to health.

Let's work with maths here again:

You're low magicka and low health, lets say you're at 10% magicka, you've got 36k missing magicka (that might not even be enough magicka to pop another dragons blood, lol, but lets keep on) this is 11.8k, with battle spirit it'll be a 6k heal, which ok, it's a ok heal... now consider that after this you've got no magicka what so ever, you can pot, and ulti, which will help you balance your magicka out, but now, pressing your 'oh s*it heal' will call in a 'oh s*it ulti', which soon enough will become a 'oh s*it heal again' that you'll not be able to do anything now duo to lack of magicka and insane pressure from proc sets and other sources.

In a more realistic scenario, you wont be sitting at 10% magicka, of course, so lets say you're a 20% which is reasonable, 32k missing health, 10.5k heal, with Battle Spirit, 5.2k heal. Not to bad it seems, but again, you'll need to constantely be on that risk zone, that any high burst stamina NB or sorc filled with proc sets will quickly get you out from.

Basically, lets analyse some issues that this will bring.

- Gankers: Basically if you get ganked, you'll have no counterplay to that, your magicka will be full, but your health will be sitting at a brink of extinction. How do you recover? No heals from Dragon Blood, not enough time to build up a burning embers after a gank, power lash won't give you a big enough heal to get you out of execute range (if you even get the time to root the ganker and lash him twice - honestly - really unlikely).

- Open World: So many problems here that it would just get too boring to read. But imagine the inumerous scenarios where this skill could go wrong. You having to dump all your magicka before you can get any decent heal, and after that, you'll likely not be able to heal again duo to no resources (considering again you're underpressure, and of course you can play around with your burning embers and flame whips on the time being, but still, compared to other classes, it's just not a reliable heal).

Potential Solutions:

1) Add a Heal Over Time (HoT) effect to the skill, nothing too big, just a little breathing room for us!
2) Reduce how much battle spirit affects this skill (DO NOT make it 100%, that'll be way to over powered)
3) Reduce the percentage heal, but add a flat heal value to the skill, for example: heals your for 15% of your missing health and heals you for 'x' hp.

Thank you!

Finally, I want to thank you all for your time in reading this and I'll appreciate any feedback I can get. Maybe I can change my mind or we can find new solutions. I'd really appreciate if ZoS could read this, and of course, respond to it if possible. Thank you once more, see you guys in Cyrodiil!

DKs Unite...
Quantum

#BuffDragonBlood

Areloth · January 2017

I totally agree with you and I guess the whole ESO community that this morph is total BS.

They should maybe simply remove the word "missing" - "Heals you for 33% of your max. Magicka".
Considering heal buffs of DKs and CP 20% would even be enough.

I am running resto staff, so it is not affecting me, but for all heavy armor one hand and shield DKs this is a nerf, not a buff.
The only good thing is that it can crit now - but we all know about the high crit chance of those heavy armor dks :-)

Ishammael · January 2017

Quantum, my only complaint is the following

analise should be analyze

Regardless, agree with everything.

Kilandros · January 2017

@CarlosO is a beast mDK and knows his stuff. Though I want to test the changes, I agree with everything you've written based on what we currently know.

It feels like the Devs are trying to make Dragon's Blood complex for complexity's sake, which is bizarre. DKs just need a reliable self heal to open up different builds and different playstyles. If Dragon's Blood was simply changed to heal for 5k and an additional 10k over 5 seconds, we'd be good to go. Continue allowing it to crit and even better. Just make it static values on one morph so as to not overbuff it for high health characters. How is that so difficult? As the saying goes: Keep it simple, stupid.

EDIT: My concern right now is that mDKs are going to be pigeonholed into permablocking Ice Staff / Desert Rose builds that are going to infuriate the PvP community and result in even more mDKs nerfs down the road.

Quantum_V · January 2017

Ishammael wrote: »

Quantum, my only complaint is the following

analise should be analyze

Regardless, agree with everything.

RIP English

CPT_CAPSLOCK · January 2017

I think to undestand this change you have to take a look at the froststaff changes and how it synergies with it.
Maybe the idea is to have small heals with embers and lashes as long as you have enough mag to block, cause u dont need a high heal if you can block and as soon as you can not block anymore cause you are running out of mag you get a high burst heal.

//not saying the amount of heal you get from it is balanced

Armitas · January 2017

Nice job.

The value is just too contingent making it a necessity to slot another burst heal which makes one question why they even have the contingent heal slotted.

Quantum_V · January 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

@CarlosO is a beast mDK and knows his stuff. Though I want to test the changes, I agree with everything you've written based on what we currently know.

It feels like the Devs are trying to make Dragon's Blood complex for complexity's sake, which is bizarre. DKs just need a reliable self heal to open up different builds and different playstyles. If Dragon's Blood was simply changed to heal for 5k and an additional 10k over 5 seconds, we'd be good to go. Continue allowing it to crit and even better. Just make it static values on one morph so as to not overbuff it for high health characters. How is that so difficult? As the saying goes: Keep it simple, stupid.

EDIT: My concern right now is that mDKs are going to be pigeonholed into permablocking Ice Staff / Desert Rose builds that are going to infuriate the PvP community and result in even more mDKs nerfs down the road.

Agree with you in every aspect... Devs seem they want to make things unique, which is good, don't get me wrong. But don't make things unique and worthless, give it a real meaning, make it good, make it shine! hahaha!

Agree with the frost staff too... mDKs will be hated if they go on the perma blocking with ice staff route... Hopefully some of these things change before live comes out!

Thanks, Kilandros!

Bashev · January 2017

CPT_CAPSLOCK wrote: »

I think to undestand this change you have to take a look at the froststaff changes and how it synergies with it.
Maybe the idea is to have small heals with embers and lashes as long as you have enough mag to block, cause u dont need a high heal if you can block and as soon as you can not block anymore cause you are running out of mag you get a high burst heal.

//not saying the amount of heal you get from it is balanced

Cause there are no skills that counter block, but at the same time a magplar can block with the ice staff and heal with the BoL and block cast unreflectable crushing shock.

Quantum_V · January 2017

CPT_CAPSLOCK wrote: »

I think to undestand this change you have to take a look at the froststaff changes and how it synergies with it.
Maybe the idea is to have small heals with embers and lashes as long as you have enough mag to block, cause u dont need a high heal if you can block and as soon as you can not block anymore cause you are running out of mag you get a high burst heal.

//not saying the amount of heal you get from it is balanced

Hey, that's a good theory, didn't think of that. Anyhow, as Kiladros said, we don't want permablocking unkillable eternal sustain mDKs, we've got enough of that on several classes in this game... Going this way might even result in future nerfs to the mDK, hopefully not.

Nice insight!

Stamden · January 2017

I agree with this post completely. It sounds alright on paper, but in practicality, this is just an unreliable heal. Dragon Blood is an extremely expensive skill to cast. Casting it on low magika = death. This limits it's only potential use to right before an Ult, which you get a heal from anyway currently.

So I would say this change is really bad. Just make it a HoT or a standard heal that scales with magika.

Moglijuana · January 2017

I agree with your post...however ZOS literally gives zero ****'s about any suggestions players give. Even if they make total sense. Good luck, but unfortunately we're probably stuck with what they have shown for another 6-12 months at least. Yay...

leepalmer95 · January 2017

They should just add a small 100% heal attached to it.

Something like 6k, so 3k heal in pvp.

That way even if your at like 50% you'll still be able to sort of heal.

Dragon blood is a really expensive heal as well.

Though you did forget to add the healing bonus's.

Mending is 25%
Draconic passive is 12%
Heavy armor is 8% (if you use it)
Blessed boost (usually 5-10%)
Quick recovery (say 5%)

That is 60% without the coagulating boost of 8%

So that 34% (for the sake of easy maths) is 17% in pvp which is boosted by 60%

0.17 x 1.6 = 0.272

so 27.2% heal.

Quantum_V · January 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

They should just add a small 100% heal attached to it.

Though you did forget to add the healing bonus's.

Mending is 25%
Draconic passive is 12%
Heavy armor is 8% (if you use it)
Blessed boost (usually 5-10%)
Quick recovery (say 5%)

That is 60% without the coagulating boost of 8%

So that 34% (for the sake of easy maths) is 17% in pvp which is boosted by 60%

0.17 x 1.6 = 0.272

so 27.2% heal.

Yes, thank you, I'm aware. When I said 'you can make it a little bit higher' I meant with the bonuses, my current Dragon's Blood Heals for like 40% of missing health, all of this was just a aproximation to compare the current with the new morph, so I disconsidered the healing buffs which, in theory, both should have!

Thank you for your feedback!

Nser · January 2017

CarlosO wrote: »

Hello there,

INTRO:

So as most of you guys already know, patch notes revealed a change to the skills Coagulating Blood, also known as the 'oh ***' heal for magicka DKs. As stated on the Patch Notes:

Coagulating Blood (Dragon Blood morph): This morph now heals you for 33% of your missing Magicka instead of 33% of your missing Health.

Firstly, lets understand how the old morph works.. Dragon Blood, as most of us know, is not a good heal as it is right now - it's a relatively expsensive heal that doesn't do much except dump your magicka and on same rare ocasions, it can save your life after spamming it a couple of times just in order to get bats or get that fat Burning Embers healing proc. Lets put in some numbers here.
From now on, we'll be thinking of a 'standard' (I know this is a generalization, but lets work with this) magicka DK with the following stats: 27k Health, 40k Magicka, 15k stamina.

CURRENT STATE

As of now, Coagulating blood is mostly going to be used once you're at ~20% health, in order to have a 'proper missing health pool' to heal from. Sitting at 20% health, means that you'll be missing 21,6k health, 33% of that (yes you can get this to be a little higher on your tooltip, but for the sake of simplicity lets keep it like this) is 7.1k, applied with battle spirit, it's a total of 3.5k heal. Honestly, that's not a TERRIBLE heal, but I've got stamDK friends that manage to get 3.5k VIGOR TICKS.. Now, in a extreme case scenario, you're sitting at 5% health, which means 25.6k missing health, which is 8.4k heal, applied with battle spirit, 4.2k max heal. With this, we can conclude that Coagulating Blood is not in a good spot in this current patch.

Now, driving a little off topic, some people might say that that's fair, 'cause we can get heals from other sources like burning embers and power lashes, and while that's true, thouse are all unreliable heals in open world. A comparison to that would be telling a stamina class to run only with rally as their source of healing, fat big heal. 'Oh, but mDKs are tanky, so they don't need to heal as much' --> Everybody is with heavy armor, being tanky, even though mDKs are good at it, is not a uniqueness to us that makes us viable in open world solo PvP.

AFTER PATCH NOTES

Now lets get back on track, lets analyse the changes done and think about them. Now, you restore your health based on your MISSING MAGICKA - at first glance, it might seem like a good idea, because your normally have a higher magicka pool compared to health.

Let's work with maths here again:

You're low magicka and low health, lets say you're at 10% magicka, you've got 36k missing magicka (that might not even be enough magicka to pop another dragons blood, lol, but lets keep on) this is 11.8k, with battle spirit it'll be a 6k heal, which ok, it's a ok heal... now consider that after this you've got no magicka what so ever, you can pot, and ulti, which will help you balance your magicka out, but now, pressing your 'oh s*it heal' will call in a 'oh s*it ulti', which soon enough will become a 'oh s*it heal again' that you'll not be able to do anything now duo to lack of magicka and insane pressure from proc sets and other sources.

In a more realistic scenario, you wont be sitting at 10% magicka, of course, so lets say you're a 20% which is reasonable, 32k missing health, 10.5k heal, with Battle Spirit, 5.2k heal. Not to bad it seems, but again, you'll need to constantely be on that risk zone, that any high burst stamina NB or sorc filled with proc sets will quickly get you out from.

Basically, lets analyse some issues that this will bring.

- Gankers: Basically if you get ganked, you'll have no counterplay to that, your magicka will be full, but your health will be sitting at a brink of extinction. How do you recover? No heals from Dragon Blood, not enough time to build up a burning embers after a gank, power lash won't give you a big enough heal to get you out of execute range (if you even get the time to root the ganker and lash him twice - honestly - really unlikely).

- Open World: So many problems here that it would just get too boring to read. But imagine the inumerous scenarios where this skill could go wrong. You having to dump all your magicka before you can get any decent heal, and after that, you'll likely not be able to heal again duo to no resources (considering again you're underpressure, and of course you can play around with your burning embers and flame whips on the time being, but still, compared to other classes, it's just not a reliable heal).

Potential Solutions:

1) Add a Heal Over Time (HoT) effect to the skill, nothing too big, just a little breathing room for us!
2) Reduce how much battle spirit affects this skill (DO NOT make it 100%, that'll be way to over powered)
3) Reduce the percentage heal, but add a flat heal value to the skill, for example: heals your for 15% of your missing health and heals you for 'x' hp.

Thank you!

Finally, I want to thank you all for your time in reading this and I'll appreciate any feedback I can get. Maybe I can change my mind or we can find new solutions. I'd really appreciate if ZoS could read this, and of course, respond to it if possible. Thank you once more, see you guys in Cyrodiil!

DKs Unite...
Quantum

#BuffDragonBlood

most of the mdkr vampiers and using mistform if they make gdb like vigor its rip for us ,Ita gonna be worst then now
try use vigor and do mistform u gonna know .

@buffmdk
@buffgdb

Nser · January 2017

Neighbor wrote: »

I agree with this post completely. It sounds alright on paper, but in practicality, this is just an unreliable heal. Dragon Blood is an extremely expensive skill to cast. Casting it on low magika = death. This limits it's only potential use to right before an Ult, which you get a heal from anyway currently.

So I would say this change is really bad. Just make it a HoT or a standard heal that scales with magika.

yea i agree xd

Saint_Bud · January 2017

Dragonblood was fine befor battlespirit was increased to 50% reduced healing. A stam player has rally and vigor. Also burning embers and inhale was not buffed at this time. ofcorse it would be op on a stam dk with vigor rally and unnearft dragonblood. People just asking for a heal based on max magicka and spelldamage, a gabcloser and a fire leap morph.
In 1 1/2 year dk finally get a fire leap morph. So ZOS dont really reads the forum and cares about the feedback, no one was asking for this and the other ***.

Quantum_V · January 2017

most of the mdkr vampiers and using mistform if they make gdb like vigor its rip for us ,Ita gonna be worst then now
try use vigor and do mistform u gonna know .

@buffmdk
@buffgdb

That is true, good insight!

NBrookus · January 2017

CPT_CAPSLOCK wrote: »

I think to undestand this change you have to take a look at the froststaff changes and how it synergies with it.
Maybe the idea is to have small heals with embers and lashes as long as you have enough mag to block, cause u dont need a high heal if you can block and as soon as you can not block anymore cause you are running out of mag you get a high burst heal.

//not saying the amount of heal you get from it is balanced

Small heals while blocking and noodle whipping is kinda what we do now, and the first fear will usually kill you with the amount of burst damage out there.

Now if you bar swap (assuming you can bar swap, which is not a given) to frost staff you might be able to regen enough stam for when that negate gets dropped on your head. But using blocking in order to drain magicka so you can heal but then can't attack just sounds like a bad idea. Your oh *** heal just bought you survival through 1 more stam heavy attack and nothing else in exchange for having zero offense.

Dorrino · January 2017

As people already mentioned pvp mDKs get 1.7-1.8 multiplier on their self healing.

So at 10k mag deficit coag blood will heal for 10k*0.33*0.5*1.8=3k heal. Which can crit now for 3k*1.65=5k heal (assuming 50+points in Elfborne).

At 20k deficit (half of mag pool in your example) the numbers become 6k non-crit and 10k crit.

At 30k mag deficit (25% max mag) the heal becomes 9k non-crit and 15k crit.

Etc.

It is also important to add that unlike current implementation the new coag blood heals for MORE with each consequitive cast (since you're spending magicka) by approximately 900 non-crit and 1.48kcrit compared to the previous cast (assuming 3k mag cost).

Cheers.

forzajuve212 · January 2017

CarlosO wrote: »

Hello there,

INTRO:

So as most of you guys already know, patch notes revealed a change to the skills Coagulating Blood, also known as the 'oh ***' heal for magicka DKs. As stated on the Patch Notes:

Coagulating Blood (Dragon Blood morph): This morph now heals you for 33% of your missing Magicka instead of 33% of your missing Health.

Firstly, lets understand how the old morph works.. Dragon Blood, as most of us know, is not a good heal as it is right now - it's a relatively expsensive heal that doesn't do much except dump your magicka and on same rare ocasions, it can save your life after spamming it a couple of times just in order to get bats or get that fat Burning Embers healing proc. Lets put in some numbers here.
From now on, we'll be thinking of a 'standard' (I know this is a generalization, but lets work with this) magicka DK with the following stats: 27k Health, 40k Magicka, 15k stamina.

CURRENT STATE

As of now, Coagulating blood is mostly going to be used once you're at ~20% health, in order to have a 'proper missing health pool' to heal from. Sitting at 20% health, means that you'll be missing 21,6k health, 33% of that (yes you can get this to be a little higher on your tooltip, but for the sake of simplicity lets keep it like this) is 7.1k, applied with battle spirit, it's a total of 3.5k heal. Honestly, that's not a TERRIBLE heal, but I've got stamDK friends that manage to get 3.5k VIGOR TICKS.. Now, in a extreme case scenario, you're sitting at 5% health, which means 25.6k missing health, which is 8.4k heal, applied with battle spirit, 4.2k max heal. With this, we can conclude that Coagulating Blood is not in a good spot in this current patch.

Now, driving a little off topic, some people might say that that's fair, 'cause we can get heals from other sources like burning embers and power lashes, and while that's true, thouse are all unreliable heals in open world. A comparison to that would be telling a stamina class to run only with rally as their source of healing, fat big heal. 'Oh, but mDKs are tanky, so they don't need to heal as much' --> Everybody is with heavy armor, being tanky, even though mDKs are good at it, is not a uniqueness to us that makes us viable in open world solo PvP.

AFTER PATCH NOTES

Now lets get back on track, lets analyse the changes done and think about them. Now, you restore your health based on your MISSING MAGICKA - at first glance, it might seem like a good idea, because your normally have a higher magicka pool compared to health.

Let's work with maths here again:

You're low magicka and low health, lets say you're at 10% magicka, you've got 36k missing magicka (that might not even be enough magicka to pop another dragons blood, lol, but lets keep on) this is 11.8k, with battle spirit it'll be a 6k heal, which ok, it's a ok heal... now consider that after this you've got no magicka what so ever, you can pot, and ulti, which will help you balance your magicka out, but now, pressing your 'oh s*it heal' will call in a 'oh s*it ulti', which soon enough will become a 'oh s*it heal again' that you'll not be able to do anything now duo to lack of magicka and insane pressure from proc sets and other sources.

In a more realistic scenario, you wont be sitting at 10% magicka, of course, so lets say you're a 20% which is reasonable, 32k missing health, 10.5k heal, with Battle Spirit, 5.2k heal. Not to bad it seems, but again, you'll need to constantely be on that risk zone, that any high burst stamina NB or sorc filled with proc sets will quickly get you out from.

Basically, lets analyse some issues that this will bring.

- Gankers: Basically if you get ganked, you'll have no counterplay to that, your magicka will be full, but your health will be sitting at a brink of extinction. How do you recover? No heals from Dragon Blood, not enough time to build up a burning embers after a gank, power lash won't give you a big enough heal to get you out of execute range (if you even get the time to root the ganker and lash him twice - honestly - really unlikely).

- Open World: So many problems here that it would just get too boring to read. But imagine the inumerous scenarios where this skill could go wrong. You having to dump all your magicka before you can get any decent heal, and after that, you'll likely not be able to heal again duo to no resources (considering again you're underpressure, and of course you can play around with your burning embers and flame whips on the time being, but still, compared to other classes, it's just not a reliable heal).

Potential Solutions:

1) Add a Heal Over Time (HoT) effect to the skill, nothing too big, just a little breathing room for us!
2) Reduce how much battle spirit affects this skill (DO NOT make it 100%, that'll be way to over powered)
3) Reduce the percentage heal, but add a flat heal value to the skill, for example: heals your for 15% of your missing health and heals you for 'x' hp.

Thank you!

Finally, I want to thank you all for your time in reading this and I'll appreciate any feedback I can get. Maybe I can change my mind or we can find new solutions. I'd really appreciate if ZoS could read this, and of course, respond to it if possible. Thank you once more, see you guys in Cyrodiil!

DKs Unite...
Quantum

#BuffDragonBlood

Good points made Quantum, lets keep the mag dk dream alive

#BuffDragonBlood

LinearParadox · January 2017

So here's something that really grinds my gears every time I read one of these threads about Dragon Blood... you're always off-target by a wide margin. In your (I'm guessing) quest to communicate 'just how bad' Dragon Blood is, you leave out so much in your math...

OP's math isn't wrong, but it's in a vaccum, a really terrible, unrealistic one...
-Draconic power passive (12%)
-Heavy armor (8%)
-Blessed CP (variable but easily 5% or more)
-Quick Recovery (variable but easily 5% or more)
-Major Mending (30%)
-Vitality pots (30%)
All powerful %healing bonuses, easily acessable to the DK.

Then there's fringe bonuses such as, but not limited to...
-Argonial racial passives (+5% taken, +5% done)
-Malubeth (30%)

Oh, and it can CRIT. And those crits are amplified by the Elfborn CP star which can even further multiply. +50% crit BASE with another variable % stacked on top of that from CP modifying the critical values.

It's not hard as a DK to get EASILY +50-75% Healing above tooltip values, and even more if you push it. Crits can spike that, cumulatively with other bonuses, to over 100% bonuses. So please, stop these absurd vaccum mathematics, especially if you ever want to be taken seriously.
You want to argue values, go ahead, but argue the REAL values.

[Edited for phone typos and because I forgot Vit pots]

Sugaroverdose · January 2017

I'd prefer CDB reverted to life state and get the f off magicka dk's

Vynn · January 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

They should just add a small 100% heal attached to it.

Something like 6k, so 3k heal in pvp.

That way even if your at like 50% you'll still be able to sort of heal.

Dragon blood is a really expensive heal as well.

Though you did forget to add the healing bonus's.

Mending is 25%
Draconic passive is 12%
Heavy armor is 8% (if you use it)
Blessed boost (usually 5-10%)
Quick recovery (say 5%)

That is 60% without the coagulating boost of 8%

So that 34% (for the sake of easy maths) is 17% in pvp which is boosted by 60%

0.17 x 1.6 = 0.272

so 27.2% heal.

Im sick of hearing about major mending for a DK. The shield is beyond worthless as a damage deterrent (better for tanks, but not great regardless). DKs have to use ability slots to stack DoTs to accomplish damage at all while maintaining some survivability in PvP. But i am supposed to waste an ability slot for a crap shield so i can get a 6 second buff that would take what is at best a 4-5k heal up by 25%? Thanks for the 1-1.25k health, soooo useful....

Major mending isn't that useful when your main heal is terrible.

pieratsos · January 2017

LinearParadox wrote: »

So here's something that really grinds my gears every time I read one of these threads about Dragon Blood... you're always off-target by a wide margin. In your (I'm guessing) quest to communicate 'just how bad' Dragon Blood is, you leave out so much in your math...

OP's math is wrong, but it's in a vaccum, a really terrible, unrealistic one...
-Draconic power passive (12%)
-Heavy armor (8%)
-Blessed CP (variable but easily 5% or more)
-Quick Recovery (variable but easily 5% or more)
-Major Mending (30%)
All powerful %healing bonuses, easily acessable to the DK.

Then there's fringe bonuses such as, but not limited to...
-Argonial racial passives (+5% taken, +5% done)
-Malubeth (30%)

Oh, and it can CRIT. And those crits are amplified by the Elfborn CP star which can even further multiply. +50% crit BASE with another variable % stacked on top of that from CP modifying the critical values.

It's not hard as a DK to get EASILY +50-75% Healing above tooltip values, and even more if you push it. Crits can spike that, cumulatively with other bonuses, to over 100% bonuses. So please, stop these absurd vaccum mathematics, especially if you ever want to be taken seriously.
You want to argue values, go ahead, but argue the REAL values.

Great you just proved how bad dragon blood is. You just said dragon blood can be decent if u take prety much every available healing bonus in the game. Not everyone want to run heavy armor, malu, cp to blessed and quick recovery, vitality pots and argonian. The fact that dragon blood need those buffs to be decent is a proof of how bad it is. I find it funny tho how u talk about crit and heavy armor considering that u are losing crit when u put on heavy armor. The only one who is off target here its you. And if u really want to talk about "REAL" values go and put breath of life and vigor under those buffs and then come here to tell people how wrong they are.

Draxys · January 2017

I don't know what exactly they should do, but it isn't this. The change is straight up one of the stupidest decisions I've seen zos make, and that's unfortunately saying something.

Ishammael · January 2017

LinearParadox wrote: »

So here's something that really grinds my gears every time I read one of these threads about Dragon Blood... you're always off-target by a wide margin. In your (I'm guessing) quest to communicate 'just how bad' Dragon Blood is, you leave out so much in your math...

OP's math is wrong, but it's in a vaccum, a really terrible, unrealistic one...
-Draconic power passive (12%)
-Heavy armor (8%)
-Blessed CP (variable but easily 5% or more)
-Quick Recovery (variable but easily 5% or more)
-Major Mending (30%)
All powerful %healing bonuses, easily acessable to the DK.

Then there's fringe bonuses such as, but not limited to...
-Argonial racial passives (+5% taken, +5% done)
-Malubeth (30%)

Oh, and it can CRIT. And those crits are amplified by the Elfborn CP star which can even further multiply. +50% crit BASE with another variable % stacked on top of that from CP modifying the critical values.

It's not hard as a DK to get EASILY +50-75% Healing above tooltip values, and even more if you push it. Crits can spike that, cumulatively with other bonuses, to over 100% bonuses. So please, stop these absurd vaccum mathematics, especially if you ever want to be taken seriously.
You want to argue values, go ahead, but argue the REAL values.

Actually, you only proved how bad the skill is.

With essentially every healing buff in the game... Dragon Blood might reach 6k. LOL
Have you looked at the tooltip on vigor lately? Greater than 15k for modest weapon damage.

Now go add in healing debuffs, the fact that igneous shield is a trash skill now, and that no one runs much in Elfborn for PvP.

DHale · January 2017

You should test it before posting. It reflects upon us all. As I recall people complained on the forum about destro ult being a wet noodle. I think that turned out to be false.

Stamden · January 2017

LinearParadox wrote: »

So here's something that really grinds my gears every time I read one of these threads about Dragon Blood... you're always off-target by a wide margin. In your (I'm guessing) quest to communicate 'just how bad' Dragon Blood is, you leave out so much in your math...

OP's math is wrong, but it's in a vaccum, a really terrible, unrealistic one...
-Draconic power passive (12%)
-Heavy armor (8%)
-Blessed CP (variable but easily 5% or more)
-Quick Recovery (variable but easily 5% or more)
-Major Mending (30%)
All powerful %healing bonuses, easily acessable to the DK.

Then there's fringe bonuses such as, but not limited to...
-Argonial racial passives (+5% taken, +5% done)
-Malubeth (30%)

Oh, and it can CRIT. And those crits are amplified by the Elfborn CP star which can even further multiply. +50% crit BASE with another variable % stacked on top of that from CP modifying the critical values.

It's not hard as a DK to get EASILY +50-75% Healing above tooltip values, and even more if you push it. Crits can spike that, cumulatively with other bonuses, to over 100% bonuses. So please, stop these absurd vaccum mathematics, especially if you ever want to be taken seriously.
You want to argue values, go ahead, but argue the REAL values.

The thing is, the value of the heal doesn't matter. If this heal guaranteed made you 100% full health everytime you cast it below 15% magika, it still wouldn't be worth using.

The problem isn't the power of the heal itself, it's that it relies on magika being low to be worth using. Dragon Blood is an extremely expensive skill. If you are low on magika, using Dragon Blood is going to use the last of it. No magika left means the mDK is either useless or dead.

For all other scenarios, you ideally want to keep magika high and manage your resources well. In which case, this skill is useless. It is just not worth putting on the bar.

Didgerion · January 2017

CarlosO wrote: »

Let's work with maths here again:

You're low magicka and low health, lets say you're at 10% magicka, you've got 36k missing magicka (that might not even be enough magicka to pop another dragons blood, lol, but lets keep on) this is 11.8k, with battle spirit it'll be a 6k heal, which ok, it's a ok heal... now consider that after this you've got no magicka what so ever, you can pot, and ulti, which will help you balance your magicka out, but now, pressing your 'oh s*it heal' will call in a 'oh s*it ulti', which soon enough will become a 'oh s*it heal again' that you'll not be able to do anything now duo to lack of magicka and insane pressure from proc sets and other sources.

In a more realistic scenario, you wont be sitting at 10% magicka, of course, so lets say you're a 20% which is reasonable, 32k missing health, 10.5k heal, with Battle Spirit, 5.2k heal. Not to bad it seems, but again, you'll need to constantely be on that risk zone, that any high burst stamina NB or sorc filled with proc sets will quickly get you out from.

Basically, lets analyse some issues that this will bring.

- Gankers: Basically if you get ganked, you'll have no counterplay to that, your magicka will be full, but your health will be sitting at a brink of extinction. How do you recover? No heals from Dragon Blood, not enough time to build up a burning embers after a gank, power lash won't give you a big enough heal to get you out of execute range (if you even get the time to root the ganker and lash him twice - honestly - really unlikely).

#BuffDragonBlood

Please note that 5.2k heal is the un-buffed heal.
It can Crit!
It can be increased by CPs
It can be increased by buffs and passives

I'm sure you can get 10k heals out of the new blood after patch - or even more.

Now have you noticed the frost destro staff changes?

Take a look, blocking will deplete your magica now.
Just get a frost destro staff and block+root+debuf the ganker.
And when your magica is low heal to full health.
Heavy armor will help alot to turn the ganker's burst down.

So Magica DKs with Fire Staff/ Frost Staff in heavy armor = OP

Too bad you don't see the OPness here.

IxskullzxI · January 2017

DHale wrote: »

You should test it before posting. It reflects upon us all. As I recall people complained on the forum about destro ult being a wet noodle. I think that turned out to be false.

This.