(Update 13) Dragon/Coagulating blood change is not a good idea. (OPEN WORLD PvP)

IxskullzxI

CarlosO wrote: »

IxskullzxI wrote: »

CarlosO wrote: »

IxskullzxI wrote: »

No one is even willing to give the cDB change a chance.

Well, I won't get in the merit of your saltiness, let's keep to the topic, even though I think you should start controlling your enthusiasm with a little more wire pulling - specially as you're coming out as a little disrespectful. Anyways...

This thread was made in order to get different insights and opinions, hopefully find room for improvement (which always exists). Additionally, we need to complain about what we don't like, what we think is wrong. If you think cDB is going to be in a good state, sure, argue about it, bring some numbers in, some situations and we can have a healthy discussion about it.

Most of us, who play the magicka DK class, have been realizing that some aspects of the class are not working, and trust us, most of us here tested stuff on the PTS, the thread was made before the PTS came out in order to start discussions based on Patch Notes. Of course our insights won't be as accurate as when PTS came out, but neither will they be as accurate as when it comes live - which in that case, it'll be too late, 'cause Zenimax, even with their effort to make this game better, release patches every so often... we've been in the dark for 1.5 years, now we have a chance to change it, we don't want to wait another year to see improvements which are always a potential gain.

EVEN if all the magicka DKs were fine with the change (which we're clearly not) threads would come up to try to make them better, that's what the community wants, that's what ZoS want... they want feedback, so we're giving it to them.

Please don't try to be an obstacle to better change, we're not crying, we're discussing for a improvement.

As Ish said above, the only thing that needed to happen to db was to make it ignore battle spirit. That's not what we got, and I don't think that will change now. The pts version of cDB would be way too high if it ignored battle spirit, and I don't think they will just make one morph ignore battle spirit. What changes could happen to make the skill better? 33% total magicka or 33% missing + a flat heal would be nice, but you would get absurd values in PvE.

Now we're talking. I think that ignoring battle spirit completely will be a bit too strong. Maybe make battle spirit affect it a little bit less, lets say 20% less (?). Add a flat healing value to cDB too.

@GinaBruno I'd really appreciate it you guys could read this thread, might find something helpfull! Thank you!

I don't think a different battle spirit number will happen. Every class will be begging for custom values on different skills then. Could get wonky if they start doing that. A flat value would have to be small, and not scale with any stat imo. Just a fixed value to avoid inflating cDB too high when you have lower magicka numbers. I've already seen some 15k+ crits. A flat value would make that even higher.

Lord_Hev

33% of your max magic magic stat would be a far more acceptable buff, a buff specifically for Magic DKs so they can reliably heal.


35k max magic: 33% = 11k heal, then factor in battle-spirt + the ability for it to crit and be factored in by healing done & received bonuses and crit modifiers.


This is the kind of buff that makes logical sense while giving us the kind of heal WE HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR THE PAST 1 1/2 YEARS.



Not some gimmick situational heal that gives 17k heals but only if you are out of magic lololol. WTF??

IxskullzxI

Lord_Hev wrote: »

33% of your max magic magic stat would be a far more acceptable buff, a buff specifically for Magic DKs so they can reliably heal.


35k max magic: 33% = 11k heal, then factor in battle-spirt + the ability for it to crit and be factored in by healing done & received bonuses and crit modifiers.


This is the kind of buff that makes logical sense while giving us the kind of heal WE HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR THE PAST 1 1/2 YEARS.



Not some gimmick situational heal that gives 17k heals but only if you are out of magic lololol. WTF??

Would that be too strong in PvE? 11k base before any buffs or cp plus it can crit? I don't pve so I dont really know but you would be able to spam 20k heals.

Toast_STS

Just change cauterize to be able to self heal like every other "ally heal" ffs

Bashev

IxskullzxI wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

33% of your max magic magic stat would be a far more acceptable buff, a buff specifically for Magic DKs so they can reliably heal.


35k max magic: 33% = 11k heal, then factor in battle-spirt + the ability for it to crit and be factored in by healing done & received bonuses and crit modifiers.


This is the kind of buff that makes logical sense while giving us the kind of heal WE HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR THE PAST 1 1/2 YEARS.



Not some gimmick situational heal that gives 17k heals but only if you are out of magic lololol. WTF??

Would that be too strong in PvE? 11k base before any buffs or cp plus it can crit? I don't pve so I dont really know but you would be able to spam 20k heals.

Yes it will be a little bit to strong. Because templars HoD heals fro 10k with 3k magicka ad 2.5 spell damage, no other factors.
But, DKs were designed to be the best self healing class in the game and the templars to be the best healers.

Kilandros

IxskullzxI wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

33% of your max magic magic stat would be a far more acceptable buff, a buff specifically for Magic DKs so they can reliably heal.


35k max magic: 33% = 11k heal, then factor in battle-spirt + the ability for it to crit and be factored in by healing done & received bonuses and crit modifiers.


This is the kind of buff that makes logical sense while giving us the kind of heal WE HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR THE PAST 1 1/2 YEARS.



Not some gimmick situational heal that gives 17k heals but only if you are out of magic lololol. WTF??

Would that be too strong in PvE? 11k base before any buffs or cp plus it can crit? I don't pve so I dont really know but you would be able to spam 20k heals.

I mean, who cares if it's strong in PvE? If we're talking competitive raiding PvE, DKs aren't gonna slot DB anyway because that's what healers are for and you need the skill space for DoTs/Damage

Kilandros

Lord_Hev wrote: »

33% of your max magic magic stat would be a far more acceptable buff, a buff specifically for Magic DKs so they can reliably heal.


35k max magic: 33% = 11k heal, then factor in battle-spirt + the ability for it to crit and be factored in by healing done & received bonuses and crit modifiers.


This is the kind of buff that makes logical sense while giving us the kind of heal WE HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR THE PAST 1 1/2 YEARS.



Not some gimmick situational heal that gives 17k heals but only if you are out of magic lololol. WTF??

Please, ZOS. Please.

Armitas

I did some testing comparing cDB and Blessing of Restoration. All cDB casts include the 8% healing buff and are approximate as I'm casting it while watching my magicka %. The percentage that you see below is the percentage at which point it was cast, not the resulting percentage of magicka. I was wearing all heavy armor so I have some extra healing buffs, cp etc but nothing unique between the two in comparison.

Data
Blessing of Restoration 4,343 at 29.697 Magicka
cDB healing.
100% - 957
94% - 1550
91% - 1770
81% - 2,568
72% - 3,321
64% - 3,985
62% - 4,199
60% - 4,341
59% - 4,428
55% - 4,784

Blessing of Restoration 4,792 at 35,487 Magicka
cDB healing
100% - 1,018
95% - 1,477
89% - 2,101
84% - 2662
77% - 3,286
72% - 3,771
64% - 4,589
62% - 4,765
61% - 4,892
60% - 4,954

Conclusions.
So at approximately 30k magicka you need to be at 60% magicka for cDB to compare to Blessing of restoration. By adding 5k more magicka cDB will compete at 62% instead of 60%. So cDB, even using it's own self buff of 8% will not even compete with Blessing of Restoration until you are at 60% magicka.

Further comparisons

• cDB for me costs 3,629 Blessing of restoration costs 3,175.
• cDB heals me, Blessing of restoration heals up to 6(?) people which helps ensure a fight doesn't turn into an 1vX
• cDB buffs other heals, Blessing of Restoration gives 2% mitigation to everyone it heals.

I know this skill will scale down and give some big numbers but I'm concerned over how far you have to plummet before that becomes important and how you are going to get out of the magicka hole you dug yourself into to turn the fight around. The conditions in which it is powerful are dire conditions, not average or controlled conditions. I am not satisfied with it, big numbers are quantitative, not qualitative. We have waited a long time, we deserve something we can all feel good about.

Ishammael

IxskullzxI wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

33% of your max magic magic stat would be a far more acceptable buff, a buff specifically for Magic DKs so they can reliably heal.


35k max magic: 33% = 11k heal, then factor in battle-spirt + the ability for it to crit and be factored in by healing done & received bonuses and crit modifiers.


This is the kind of buff that makes logical sense while giving us the kind of heal WE HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR THE PAST 1 1/2 YEARS.



Not some gimmick situational heal that gives 17k heals but only if you are out of magic lololol. WTF??

Would that be too strong in PvE? 11k base before any buffs or cp plus it can crit? I don't pve so I dont really know but you would be able to spam 20k heals.

Strength of dragon Blood is irrelevant in PvE for the most part. BoL can heal for 20k+ in PvE, which is similarly irrelevant.

DUTCH_REAPER

All the people posting "you mDKers just want an easy one button mash heal" dude just stop. Seriously stop posting here. You lost all credit with us. And by "us" I mean people who actually play and love the mDK. We have paid MORE than enough for being PVP gods pre 1.5 and being shattered with the nerf hammer.

Lord_Hev

PvE, a DPS DK will get lolone-shotted no matter how good his CDB is, and a tank doing it will just waste time and resources.

IxskullzxI

@Armitas
The only problem with comparing blessing of resto and cDB is you don't need to slot a resto for BoR. I see what you're saying. Blessing heals more until db is at 60% and heals aoe. But that doesn't necessarily mean db should be buffed becasue of that. DB allows for bigger heals (conidtonal) and allows you to drop the resto, which is huge.

Armitas

IxskullzxI wrote: »

@Armitas
The only problem with comparing blessing of resto and cDB is you don't need to slot a resto for BoR. I see what you're saying. Blessing heals more until db is at 60% and heals aoe. But that doesn't necessarily mean db should be buffed becasue of that. DB allows for bigger heals (conidtonal) and allows you to drop the resto, which is huge.

It does provide a unique build advantage, but why should it's separation from a restoration staff play a part in the internal quality of the skill? If anything the quality of a skill should be highest in a class, and less in a universal skill. Breath of Life for example.

IxskullzxI

Armitas wrote: »

IxskullzxI wrote: »

@Armitas
The only problem with comparing blessing of resto and cDB is you don't need to slot a resto for BoR. I see what you're saying. Blessing heals more until db is at 60% and heals aoe. But that doesn't necessarily mean db should be buffed becasue of that. DB allows for bigger heals (conidtonal) and allows you to drop the resto, which is huge.

It does provide a unique build advantage, but why should it's separation from a restoration staff play a part in the internal quality of the skill? If anything the quality of a skill should be highest in a class, and less in a universal skill. Breath of Life for example.

You're right, but I don't think zos will see it that way. Harness magicka is available to all classes yet igneous is trash compared to it. I can only assume it's beacuse igneous gives you mending.

BlackMadara

IxskullzxI wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

IxskullzxI wrote: »

@Armitas
The only problem with comparing blessing of resto and cDB is you don't need to slot a resto for BoR. I see what you're saying. Blessing heals more until db is at 60% and heals aoe. But that doesn't necessarily mean db should be buffed becasue of that. DB allows for bigger heals (conidtonal) and allows you to drop the resto, which is huge.

It does provide a unique build advantage, but why should it's separation from a restoration staff play a part in the internal quality of the skill? If anything the quality of a skill should be highest in a class, and less in a universal skill. Breath of Life for example.

You're right, but I don't think zos will see it that way. Harness magicka is available to all classes yet igneous is trash compared to it. I can only assume it's beacuse igneous gives you mending.

Igneous and harness magicka are bad comparisons. One scales off hp and the other magicka. If you are to compare a class ward to an universal ward, annulment and conjured ward are better.

The sorc ward is cheaper and shields pets.

In terms of shield value, conjured ward's morph, hardened ward, has a higher value and without the need to slot more light armor.

Annulment's harness magicka morph does give magicka when hit by a spell, which I believe is better than empowered ward's minor intellect buff, but that morph also has its cost further reduced.

Obsidian shard and it's morphs are more comparable to bone shield, both scaling off hp. Now it's debatable which is better as both shield the caster for 30% max hp but the DKs gives half of that to all allies and bone has a synergy that gives a 60%hp shield to one ally. Both effects are pretty useless in pvp but have their uses elsewhere. I'd argue that major mending on igneous is better than any morph of bine shield.

I agree with @Armitas that db should be a better SELF heal than any available universal ability, weapon locked or no.

Aerem

Didgerion wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

CarlosO wrote: »

Let's work with maths here again:

You're low magicka and low health, lets say you're at 10% magicka, you've got 36k missing magicka (that might not even be enough magicka to pop another dragons blood, lol, but lets keep on) this is 11.8k, with battle spirit it'll be a 6k heal, which ok, it's a ok heal... now consider that after this you've got no magicka what so ever, you can pot, and ulti, which will help you balance your magicka out, but now, pressing your 'oh s*it heal' will call in a 'oh s*it ulti', which soon enough will become a 'oh s*it heal again' that you'll not be able to do anything now duo to lack of magicka and insane pressure from proc sets and other sources.

In a more realistic scenario, you wont be sitting at 10% magicka, of course, so lets say you're a 20% which is reasonable, 32k missing health, 10.5k heal, with Battle Spirit, 5.2k heal. Not to bad it seems, but again, you'll need to constantely be on that risk zone, that any high burst stamina NB or sorc filled with proc sets will quickly get you out from.

Basically, lets analyse some issues that this will bring.

- Gankers: Basically if you get ganked, you'll have no counterplay to that, your magicka will be full, but your health will be sitting at a brink of extinction. How do you recover? No heals from Dragon Blood, not enough time to build up a burning embers after a gank, power lash won't give you a big enough heal to get you out of execute range (if you even get the time to root the ganker and lash him twice - honestly - really unlikely).



#BuffDragonBlood

Please note that 5.2k heal is the un-buffed heal.
It can Crit!
It can be increased by CPs
It can be increased by buffs and passives

I'm sure you can get 10k heals out of the new blood after patch - or even more.

Now have you noticed the frost destro staff changes?

Take a look, blocking will deplete your magica now.
Just get a frost destro staff and block+root+debuf the ganker.
And when your magica is low heal to full health.
Heavy armor will help alot to turn the ganker's burst down.

So Magica DKs with Fire Staff/ Frost Staff in heavy armor = OP

Too bad you don't see the OPness here.

what the f is op if you cannot damage? i can invest everything in health and healing and get ridiciusly huge CDB ticks but what's next? frost staff is for magplars

Oh man, you just need to learn DKs. with 40k magica pool you can do lots of damage while with 40k health - not really.

Ok so here is step by step how to kill the ganker:
1. Ganker attaks you with a fancy one shot combo.
2. You loose half health and half stamina to break free.
3. Switch to destro staff, now you can block all his damage while your magica is drained.
4. While holding block root the ganker, debuf him with major fracture and buff yourself with Major Mending
5. Heal to almost full health
6. Desto ult the ganker (all your resources are back now)
7. Keep the ganker rooted
8. You can watch him die!
9. and of course You can whip him here and there just to give him a lesson.

Magica dks will be the ultimate gank busters.

Ok...

1. A gank by a decent player is leaving you with 25-35% health max, and he is going to be spamming executes
2. I may not have a destro ult
3. I like how heal to full is done in one step.
4. Are you doing this on mobs or players? Most people understand how to roll dodge and aren't going to sit there.

IxskullzxI

@BlackMadara
Yeah but blessing of restoration will never hit the values that db will. It wouldnt be balanced if db healed the same as blessing at higher magicka when it can hit upwards of 15k at lower magicka.

Didgerion

Aerem wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

CarlosO wrote: »

Let's work with maths here again:

You're low magicka and low health, lets say you're at 10% magicka, you've got 36k missing magicka (that might not even be enough magicka to pop another dragons blood, lol, but lets keep on) this is 11.8k, with battle spirit it'll be a 6k heal, which ok, it's a ok heal... now consider that after this you've got no magicka what so ever, you can pot, and ulti, which will help you balance your magicka out, but now, pressing your 'oh s*it heal' will call in a 'oh s*it ulti', which soon enough will become a 'oh s*it heal again' that you'll not be able to do anything now duo to lack of magicka and insane pressure from proc sets and other sources.

In a more realistic scenario, you wont be sitting at 10% magicka, of course, so lets say you're a 20% which is reasonable, 32k missing health, 10.5k heal, with Battle Spirit, 5.2k heal. Not to bad it seems, but again, you'll need to constantely be on that risk zone, that any high burst stamina NB or sorc filled with proc sets will quickly get you out from.

Basically, lets analyse some issues that this will bring.

- Gankers: Basically if you get ganked, you'll have no counterplay to that, your magicka will be full, but your health will be sitting at a brink of extinction. How do you recover? No heals from Dragon Blood, not enough time to build up a burning embers after a gank, power lash won't give you a big enough heal to get you out of execute range (if you even get the time to root the ganker and lash him twice - honestly - really unlikely).



#BuffDragonBlood

Please note that 5.2k heal is the un-buffed heal.
It can Crit!
It can be increased by CPs
It can be increased by buffs and passives

I'm sure you can get 10k heals out of the new blood after patch - or even more.

Now have you noticed the frost destro staff changes?

Take a look, blocking will deplete your magica now.
Just get a frost destro staff and block+root+debuf the ganker.
And when your magica is low heal to full health.
Heavy armor will help alot to turn the ganker's burst down.

So Magica DKs with Fire Staff/ Frost Staff in heavy armor = OP

Too bad you don't see the OPness here.

what the f is op if you cannot damage? i can invest everything in health and healing and get ridiciusly huge CDB ticks but what's next? frost staff is for magplars

Oh man, you just need to learn DKs. with 40k magica pool you can do lots of damage while with 40k health - not really.

Ok so here is step by step how to kill the ganker:
1. Ganker attaks you with a fancy one shot combo.
2. You loose half health and half stamina to break free.
3. Switch to destro staff, now you can block all his damage while your magica is drained.
4. While holding block root the ganker, debuf him with major fracture and buff yourself with Major Mending
5. Heal to almost full health
6. Desto ult the ganker (all your resources are back now)
7. Keep the ganker rooted
8. You can watch him die!
9. and of course You can whip him here and there just to give him a lesson.

Magica dks will be the ultimate gank busters.

Ok...

1. A gank by a decent player is leaving you with 25-35% health max, and he is going to be spamming executes
2. I may not have a destro ult
3. I like how heal to full is done in one step.
4. Are you doing this on mobs or players? Most people understand how to roll dodge and aren't going to sit there.

It was just a very simplified example. But in general here are some best practices to follow:
a. Increase your mitigation, either by wearing the impen heavy armor or by using impen light armor but keeping the Radiant Magelight on the bar (it will mitigate 50% damage from stealth attacks).
b. Reapply buffs/shields/mage light/etc periodically (every 5 second for example while not in combat) and keep your magica at 50%. - this way the moderate heal will be always ready.
Unfortunately the meta right now is all about mitigation+burst. You will have to build your class around high mitigation. The current "balance" patch did not change the heavy armor meta.

Anyway it is true, playing a mag DK will be hard and it will require a lot of skill and a well tuned resource management build, but I'm telling you that CDB heal is powerful in good hands.

Hutch679

@Wrobel "we've got some really cool nerfs and mechanic changes to the dk class coming in update 13 that we think players will really finger blast in the forums. Really excited for the death of magicka dks in this upcoming patch."

IxskullzxI

Hutch679 wrote: »

@Wrobel "we've got some really cool nerfs and mechanic changes to the dk class coming in update 13 that we think players will really finger blast in the forums. Really excited for the death of magicka dks in this upcoming patch."

Great input.

DUTCH_REAPER

#mdkgotwrobled....again

BlackMadara

IxskullzxI wrote: »

@BlackMadara
Yeah but blessing of restoration will never hit the values that db will. It wouldnt be balanced if db healed the same as blessing at higher magicka when it can hit upwards of 15k at lower magicka.

Why not? Breath of life heals the initial target for way more than blessing of resto plus half for the second. The advantage of blessing of resto is that it can hit more players and gives minor resists, I get that; but what is wrong with a purely self heal that heals close to that of blessing at full magicka and more than it at low?

I dig the gimmick they are going for with cdb but the low heal at max stat doesn't work as well, in practice, for magicka as it does health. As people of pointed out, you don't need a large heal when you have a more full health bar, but there are instances that you will when your magicka bar is topped off.

IxskullzxI

We shouldnt ask for something because of BoL. That ability is busted in PvP. It's a crutch and should be nerfed.

FloppyTouch

We buffed mdk by nerfing it again ur welcome

IxskullzxI

FloppyTouch wrote: »

We buffed mdk by nerfing it again ur welcome

Great contribution.

Kilandros

Didgerion wrote: »

Aerem wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

CarlosO wrote: »

Let's work with maths here again:

You're low magicka and low health, lets say you're at 10% magicka, you've got 36k missing magicka (that might not even be enough magicka to pop another dragons blood, lol, but lets keep on) this is 11.8k, with battle spirit it'll be a 6k heal, which ok, it's a ok heal... now consider that after this you've got no magicka what so ever, you can pot, and ulti, which will help you balance your magicka out, but now, pressing your 'oh s*it heal' will call in a 'oh s*it ulti', which soon enough will become a 'oh s*it heal again' that you'll not be able to do anything now duo to lack of magicka and insane pressure from proc sets and other sources.

In a more realistic scenario, you wont be sitting at 10% magicka, of course, so lets say you're a 20% which is reasonable, 32k missing health, 10.5k heal, with Battle Spirit, 5.2k heal. Not to bad it seems, but again, you'll need to constantely be on that risk zone, that any high burst stamina NB or sorc filled with proc sets will quickly get you out from.

Basically, lets analyse some issues that this will bring.

- Gankers: Basically if you get ganked, you'll have no counterplay to that, your magicka will be full, but your health will be sitting at a brink of extinction. How do you recover? No heals from Dragon Blood, not enough time to build up a burning embers after a gank, power lash won't give you a big enough heal to get you out of execute range (if you even get the time to root the ganker and lash him twice - honestly - really unlikely).



#BuffDragonBlood

Please note that 5.2k heal is the un-buffed heal.
It can Crit!
It can be increased by CPs
It can be increased by buffs and passives

I'm sure you can get 10k heals out of the new blood after patch - or even more.

Now have you noticed the frost destro staff changes?

Take a look, blocking will deplete your magica now.
Just get a frost destro staff and block+root+debuf the ganker.
And when your magica is low heal to full health.
Heavy armor will help alot to turn the ganker's burst down.

So Magica DKs with Fire Staff/ Frost Staff in heavy armor = OP

Too bad you don't see the OPness here.

what the f is op if you cannot damage? i can invest everything in health and healing and get ridiciusly huge CDB ticks but what's next? frost staff is for magplars

Oh man, you just need to learn DKs. with 40k magica pool you can do lots of damage while with 40k health - not really.

Ok so here is step by step how to kill the ganker:
1. Ganker attaks you with a fancy one shot combo.
2. You loose half health and half stamina to break free.
3. Switch to destro staff, now you can block all his damage while your magica is drained.
4. While holding block root the ganker, debuf him with major fracture and buff yourself with Major Mending
5. Heal to almost full health
6. Desto ult the ganker (all your resources are back now)
7. Keep the ganker rooted
8. You can watch him die!
9. and of course You can whip him here and there just to give him a lesson.

Magica dks will be the ultimate gank busters.

Ok...

1. A gank by a decent player is leaving you with 25-35% health max, and he is going to be spamming executes
2. I may not have a destro ult
3. I like how heal to full is done in one step.
4. Are you doing this on mobs or players? Most people understand how to roll dodge and aren't going to sit there.

It was just a very simplified example. But in general here are some best practices to follow:
a. Increase your mitigation, either by wearing the impen heavy armor or by using impen light armor but keeping the Radiant Magelight on the bar (it will mitigate 50% damage from stealth attacks).
b. Reapply buffs/shields/mage light/etc periodically (every 5 second for example while not in combat) and keep your magica at 50%. - this way the moderate heal will be always ready.
Unfortunately the meta right now is all about mitigation+burst. You will have to build your class around high mitigation. The current "balance" patch did not change the heavy armor meta.

Anyway it is true, playing a mag DK will be hard and it will require a lot of skill and a well tuned resource management build, but I'm telling you that CDB heal is powerful in good hands.

I would LOVE to see you go up a skilled ganker and, while in execute range like you claim, take the time to cast a root, major fracture, and major mending and not get roflstomped while blocking.

Because you wouldn't be able to. Reverse Slice is still gonna hit you for 6k through block at low health.