(Update 13) Dragon/Coagulating blood change is not a good idea. (OPEN WORLD PvP)
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Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
On first cast it doesn't.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Only if you run zero critresist or buff critrate+critdamage, for my build it's actually will heal almost the same way as GDB can on PTS.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Tell it to magplars or any stambuild they'll laugh.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
But with bigger health numbers you have less magicka, smaller heal.
Also ability looses it's identity and becomes "something"
Anyway, you still don't apply battle spirit 50% reduction, with 50% health lost your formula will heal for 3.3k, with 80% lost it will heal for 5k
But if you add the healing buffs, and the crit it can be pretty good. 3.3 *1.10*1.05*1.25*1.12 = 5336 without crit at 50% health. If it crit it will be around 8k heal. It will be way better than what we have on live and what we have on PTS.
But your idea still better then current CDB.
If you have the same amount of magicka and health it will be the same but still CDB gives you 8% more healing.
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LinearParadox✭✭✭✭✭This post is kind of long, but lets get into it, I'll try to make it quick:
About all the buffs you're talking about (which I run points in blessed, quick recovery, Earthen Heart passives etc...) I get a 48% DB instead of 33%, that's all buffed up. Feel free to do the math with it, trust me, for SOLO PVP there's situations when Vigor Ticks heal more than DB itself, anyways, no matter how many buffs you give mDK, if the base heal is bad...
Don't come in using arguments about harness magicka and other shields, we're talking about THE MAGICKA DRAGON KNIGHT, Harness is a skill every class can use, that's not a mDK shield, when every class in the game can have it (sorcs, templars, nbs...). I'm not even gonna get in the dragon leap idea you gave (in it's current state, it will change for PTS thanks god), telling us to get rid of our only source of burst (which is meteor) to get a ulti that's not even magicka... We're good without gap closers, reliable heals, mobility aspects, and executes, we don't need to get rid of our only source of burst too.
Our complain here, is not that we don't have an easy mode heal, most magicka DKs here will agree with me that even with 'an easy mode heal' mDKs are not that easy to play, again, no gap closers, executes and underwhelming damage a lot of times (specially in current state of the game).
Finally, have you ever played mDK solo pvp? If so, for how long? Do you currently main one? What are your insights on it.
I totally understand your argument about DB vs Vigor, but I feel that Vigor is quite overpowered right now and I disagree with using it as a benchmark for skill efficiency because of that. However I understand the necessity of keeping skills competitive in the meta so perhaps until Vigor is properly nerfed, all skills will have to compare against it
I'm sorry, but I can't not use arguments about other options available. I can understand if using things outside of class skills rubs you the wrong way, or breaks your immersion of your character 'archetype' or power fantasy, but honestly those things are RP problems and don't belong in an balance discussion. In a perfect world, all these things would be in alignment and no one would have to sacrifice anything for build identity or whatever, but nothing is perfect.
If you(anyone) refuse to use the tools available to make your build stronger, then you forfeit the right to complain about how you're handicapping yourself.
And I totally agree, MagDKs are not easy to play, and I have a great deal of respect for those that can and do play them well.
To answer your question, I am not one of those people frankly. My MagDKs is mediocre at best, I perform much better with other classes and builds, but I did play one for a while, and I still have one (See sig) that I use as either a healer/small group front-line support that's able to hold her own fairly well in most situations.
My insights on the class? Honestly I may offend some people here saying this, but it's not my intention...
I think most of you are doing it wrong. And by that I mean your builds, even the successful ones(respect on that btw), are going against the 'theme' of the class.
MagDKs, and DKs in general, are a tanky front-line class designed to survive in the thick of battle using numerous buffs and defensive skills to minimize incoming damage while using a variety of cheap and high-utility DoTs to pressure and wear down opponents.
Most DKs I see, Mag or Stam, ignore/eschew this build philosophy in favor of the "burst meta" crap that's being done on every single class and build.
I believe part of the reason this happens is because of the power-creep affecting sustain, so the prospect of 'outlasting' opponents is much harder when most skilled PvPers can sustain almost indefinitely regardless of their build, so often it seems like burst is the only way to put someone down. This is not true. I know this from experience.
Sure, it might be the most straightforward way, maybe even in one's opinion the 'easiest' way, but it is NOT the only way.
I have seen quite a few very sucessful, powerful MDKs, using the rope-a-dope strategy. In fact, I use this strategy myself even on my Stam DK(No wrecking blow, no DW, etc) to great effect.
Additionally, I'm not sure MDKs are going to have that infamous 'mobility problem' anymore with the coming buffs to chains. That is, assuming, ZoS ever gets cap-closers to fire reliably -.- But that's not a class-specific issue so lets move on.
I think a great deal of this frustration is due to class identity, wether on the part of the devs for implementation, or on the part of players for their builds and playstyle;
The Templar, specifically the Magplar, is the only class deliberately designed with an easy, powerful, one-button self heal. Other classes have to rely on other means.
Another way to think about this, is when someone says "Every class can do every role". It's true, and they all bring something different to the table, and they all accomplish their role in different ways;
Templar is a straight-forward healer and buffer, with a HUGE pool of buffs to draw from, bonuses to healing, and a smart-targeted heal built right into their class.
Nightblades heal by dealing damage. They suffer in raw healing numbers but make up for it by adding DPS in dungeons.
DKs have fewer heals, but can help the group by giving out shields like crazy and mitigating the actual damage /taken/ such that they can effectively heal the remainder.
Etc etc etc.
Likewise, each class has different means of accomplishing the same things. This is NECESSARY, otherwise things would be extremely boring and we all might as well be playing the same class with the same weapons, skills, armor, etc.
It seems to me that DKs are intentionally supposed to have to play a juggling game with their healing, just the same way say, a NB, has to play a juggling game with their aggro and visibility and predictability because they're punished heavily for attacking directly and rewarded heavily for attacking selectively.
Essentially what I'm saying is that DKs asking for an easy, 'reliable' heal in any situation like a Templar, is a bit like NB's complaining that they can't charge into someone's face and try to beat them down like a DK would.
Is it hard? Sure. Is it actually a bit of a handicap? Maybe, but I think not. It's just a quirk of the class, and those quirks are necessary to keep gameplay diverse and interesting.Edited by LinearParadox on January 5, 2017 10:17PMtwitch.tv/linearparadox
Benthar the Unkillable - lvl 50 StamDK - AD
High Confessor Celosia - lvl 50 MagDK, AD
Aeolyndra Sunstrider - lvl 50 Magplar Support God, AD
Maldreth Angala - lvl 50 Magicka PetSorc, AD
Veldrosa Wyldwind - lvl 50 StamSorc, AD
M. Night Shatupon - lvl 50 MagBlade, AD
Vestonia Ironhardt - lvl 50 Warden GuardTank, AD
Bone Daddy - lvl 50 TankCro, AD
Abra Kedaver - lvl 50 MagCro, AD
And many more...
CP 1700+2 -
Stamden✭✭✭✭✭
✭I totally understand your argument about DB vs Vigor, but I feel that Vigor is quite overpowered right now and I disagree with using it as a benchmark for skill efficiency because of that. However I understand the necessity of keeping skills competitive in the meta so perhaps until Vigor is properly nerfed, all skills will have to compare against it
Dude there is a balance patch once every decade. If Vigor isn't getting nerfed this patch, it probably never is. So it might as well be a benchmark heal.Edited by Stamden on January 6, 2017 3:03AMPC NA
~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~0 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I totally understand your argument about DB vs Vigor, but I feel that Vigor is quite overpowered right now and I disagree with using it as a benchmark for skill efficiency because of that. However I understand the necessity of keeping skills competitive in the meta so perhaps until Vigor is properly nerfed, all skills will have to compare against it
Dude there is a balance patch once every decade. If Vigor isn't getting nerfed this patch, it probably never is. So it might as well be a benchmark heal.
I put on 5pc trainee and 5pc Black rose. I had 1.6k wpn dmg and 19k stam. Vigor still ticked for 1k. E.g. better than coag until you are missing 20k mana.
Lol0 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭LinearParadox wrote: »I think most of you are doing it wrong. And by that I mean your builds, even the successful ones(respect on that btw), are going against the 'theme' of the class.
MagDKs, and DKs in general, are a tanky front-line class designed to survive in the thick of battle using numerous buffs and defensive skills to minimize incoming damage while using a variety of cheap and high-utility DoTs to pressure and wear down opponents.
Most DKs I see, Mag or Stam, ignore/eschew this build philosophy in favor of the "burst meta" crap that's being done on every single class and build.
I believe part of the reason this happens is because of the power-creep affecting sustain, so the prospect of 'outlasting' opponents is much harder when most skilled PvPers can sustain almost indefinitely regardless of their build, so often it seems like burst is the only way to put someone down. This is not true. I know this from experience.
Sure, it might be the most straightforward way, maybe even in one's opinion the 'easiest' way, but it is NOT the only way.
I have seen quite a few very sucessful, powerful MDKs, using the rope-a-dope strategy. In fact, I use this strategy myself even on my Stam DK(No wrecking blow, no DW, etc) to great effect.
I don't know any competent open world mDKs that don't play tanky/sustain. Problem is, our DoTs are *not* cheap... they are quite expensive, and in a meta where pretty much everyone else has high burst and infinite sustain, our sustain is not holding up to the incoming damage we are trying to mitigate. Virtually all of us are trying to squeeze out a little more damage so we have a chance of killing a player in a weak moment. I have tried the opposite direction -- go tankier/more sustain -- and most stam builds can simply out-heal my damage when I go that way with Rally/Vigor or Ritual/BoL. Best case scenario is currently a draw unless you are just a lot better player than your stam opponent.
(This does not apply to duels. I'm talking open world.)
I have also played stam DK tank and hybrid DK tank, and both were much stronger with better sustain and heals even before Update 12.3 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭LinearParadox wrote: »I think most of you are doing it wrong. And by that I mean your builds, even the successful ones(respect on that btw), are going against the 'theme' of the class.
MagDKs, and DKs in general, are a tanky front-line class designed to survive in the thick of battle using numerous buffs and defensive skills to minimize incoming damage while using a variety of cheap and high-utility DoTs to pressure and wear down opponents.
Most DKs I see, Mag or Stam, ignore/eschew this build philosophy in favor of the "burst meta" crap that's being done on every single class and build.
I believe part of the reason this happens is because of the power-creep affecting sustain, so the prospect of 'outlasting' opponents is much harder when most skilled PvPers can sustain almost indefinitely regardless of their build, so often it seems like burst is the only way to put someone down. This is not true. I know this from experience.
Sure, it might be the most straightforward way, maybe even in one's opinion the 'easiest' way, but it is NOT the only way.
I have seen quite a few very sucessful, powerful MDKs, using the rope-a-dope strategy. In fact, I use this strategy myself even on my Stam DK(No wrecking blow, no DW, etc) to great effect.
I don't know any competent open world mDKs that don't play tanky/sustain. Problem is, our DoTs are *not* cheap... they are quite expensive, and in a meta where pretty much everyone else has high burst and infinite sustain, our sustain is not holding up to the incoming damage we are trying to mitigate. Virtually all of us are trying to squeeze out a little more damage so we have a chance of killing a player in a weak moment. I have tried the opposite direction -- go tankier/more sustain -- and most stam builds can simply out-heal my damage when I go that way with Rally/Vigor or Ritual/BoL. Best case scenario is currently a draw unless you are just a lot better player than your stam opponent.
(This does not apply to duels. I'm talking open world.)
Can you put that comment on the official thread as well. I think they need to hear that. That is my experience as well, I'm always tied to a sustain set because so many of our skills are so expensive. In many cases, like earthen heart, they are meant inhibit stam builds, but a lot of us are magicka in heavy armor.Edited by Armitas on January 6, 2017 2:13PMRetired.
Nord mDK1 -
IxskullzxI✭✭✭✭I totally understand your argument about DB vs Vigor, but I feel that Vigor is quite overpowered right now and I disagree with using it as a benchmark for skill efficiency because of that. However I understand the necessity of keeping skills competitive in the meta so perhaps until Vigor is properly nerfed, all skills will have to compare against it
Dude there is a balance patch once every decade. If Vigor isn't getting nerfed this patch, it probably never is. So it might as well be a benchmark heal.
I put on 5pc trainee and 5pc Black rose. I had 1.6k wpn dmg and 19k stam. Vigor still ticked for 1k. E.g. better than coag until you are missing 20k mana.
Lol
Except coag heals 1300-1800 at 100% mana. So that's false.
Lol#HowDoYouLikeYourDK?1 -
LinearParadox✭✭✭✭✭So here's an interesting idea...
What if DB, or a morph thereof, healed for a high % of damage taken in the last few seconds?
For example (Just throwing out numbers) something like 70% of damage taken in the last 3 seconds, unaffected by battlespirit.
You'd have a tool to survive against unexpected burst, increasing your 'tankiness' but it would still be 'situational' like the devs want, and it wouldn't be OP because you could still conceivably wear down the DK with chip damage overtime, or kill them the same way you kill Magplars - run them out of mag.
Just a thought.
(Edited for phone autocorrect hijinx -.-)Edited by LinearParadox on January 7, 2017 12:13AMtwitch.tv/linearparadox
Benthar the Unkillable - lvl 50 StamDK - AD
High Confessor Celosia - lvl 50 MagDK, AD
Aeolyndra Sunstrider - lvl 50 Magplar Support God, AD
Maldreth Angala - lvl 50 Magicka PetSorc, AD
Veldrosa Wyldwind - lvl 50 StamSorc, AD
M. Night Shatupon - lvl 50 MagBlade, AD
Vestonia Ironhardt - lvl 50 Warden GuardTank, AD
Bone Daddy - lvl 50 TankCro, AD
Abra Kedaver - lvl 50 MagCro, AD
And many more...
CP 1700+3 -
Quantum_VClass RepresentativeLinearParadox wrote: »So here's an interesting idea...
What if DB, or a morph thereof, healed for a high % of damage taken in the last few seconds?
For example (Just throwing out numbers) something like 70% of damage taken in the last 3 seconds, unaffected by battles pirates.
You'd have a tool to survive against unexpected burst, increasing your 'tankiness' but it would still be 'situational' like the dev want, and it wouldn't be OP because you could still conceivably wear down the DK with chip damage overtime, or kill them the same way you kill Magplars - run them out of mag.
Just a thought.
Now we're talking. For some reason I really liked this idea! Specially for thouse solo/small scale PvPers like me, that keep get chased by 93489538495 people, this might actually be a very interesting idea!2 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It wouldn't be good for vampires because you couldn't mist > los > heal due to the damage taken being reduced. Not saying we are all vamps or need to be considered as such, I'm just pointing out a possible consequence. Another consequence might occur in that building mitigation and crit resistance would decrease your healing survival.Edited by Armitas on January 6, 2017 6:25PMRetired.
Nord mDK1 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IxskullzxI wrote: »I totally understand your argument about DB vs Vigor, but I feel that Vigor is quite overpowered right now and I disagree with using it as a benchmark for skill efficiency because of that. However I understand the necessity of keeping skills competitive in the meta so perhaps until Vigor is properly nerfed, all skills will have to compare against it
Dude there is a balance patch once every decade. If Vigor isn't getting nerfed this patch, it probably never is. So it might as well be a benchmark heal.
I put on 5pc trainee and 5pc Black rose. I had 1.6k wpn dmg and 19k stam. Vigor still ticked for 1k. E.g. better than coag until you are missing 20k mana.
Lol
Except coag heals 1300-1800 at 100% mana. So that's false.
Lol
Vigor ticks 6 times. 6 times 1 is 6k. This is in Cyrodiil.
Regardless, coag won't heal you for 1800 at full mana in Cyrodiil. That is the only place that matters. Simple math can prove that.3 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭
That didn't change anything about the complaints though. Here are some quotes from after the 2.6.1 change:
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I read again and I still see the nerf. It's not any better than before. Its total damage is on slightly higher than before.
You can double the damage, but if you cut the duration in half, then what's the point ? A 6s duration ult for 250 cost is not acceptable.
---So, only a 20% increased damage on elemental storm ? Seriously...
Meteor without any boost still does 30% more damage with far more utility and less cost. The frost version may be useful now in pvp, and even here it short duration will wreck it utility.
Soul assault (a morph) now does the same damage as rapid fire (the base skill). The utility is a little better for soul assault, but the ballista morph for rapid fire is still far better.
The imbalance is still here.
---BlazingDynamo wrote: »Aaaaaalright. Nerf Elemental Storm
seriously ? I can't believe.
Why double the damage per tick, if you cut the duration in half almost ? So that the damage per cast remains almost the same.
I just don't get it. WHY can't magicka just get a buff for pure buff for a change ?
The soul assault change was a surprise though, didn't expect that. Looks interesting.
Elemental Strom would have to be cut by more than half, so down to 4.9 seconds or less for it to be a nerf. It's actually a buff, a very very slight buff but one none to less. At least the elemental choice of staff effects are much better.
Still weaker than meteor I would imagine. The cost is what hurts it most.
No nerf to stamina weapon ults? That blows. Those are clearly way too powerful. Doesn't take a genius to see that. Do they discuss these things before implementing them or is it just one guy who goes "Here's the new weapon ults they been asking for guys! Throw her in the game!"
---Shadesofkin wrote: »
---dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »BlazingDynamo wrote: »Aaaaaalright. Nerf Elemental Storm seriously ? I can't believe.
Why double the damage per tick, if you cut the duration in half almost ? So that the damage per cast remains almost the same.
I just don't get it. WHY can't magicka just get a buff for pure buff for a change ?
The soul assault change was a surprise though, didn't expect that. Looks interesting.
Elemental Strom would have to be cut by more than half, so down to 4.9 seconds or less for it to be a nerf. It's actually a buff, a very very slight buff but one none to less. At least the elemental choice of staff effects are much better.
Still weaker than meteor I would imagine. The cost is what hurts it most.
No nerf to stamina weapon ults? That blows. Those are clearly way too powerful. Doesn't take a genius to see that. Do they discuss these things before implementing them or is it just one guy who goes "Here's the new weapon ults they been asking for guys! Throw her in the game!"
the buff is so small and pathetic that the joke is they may as well have nerfed it. if they also reduced the cost by 50% then MAYBE it would be slotted, and even then staffs suck so bad that most would still just use meteor.
---Please reduce the cost of the destro ultimate. You essentially spent all this time creating an ultimate that literally no one will use. You are wasting your time and ours by putting this out there.
---Elemental Storm:
Decreased the length of time for this Ultimate to 6 seconds from 10 seconds.
Doubled the damage done per hit.
Icy Rage will now immobilize targets affected by the storm instead of granting a 100% chance to apply a chilled effect.
Fiery Rage now deals 10% additional damage instead of granting a 100% chance to apply a burning effect.
Thunderous Rage now increases this ability’s duration by 2 seconds instead of granting a 100% chance to apply concussion.
What the hell?!!! Seriously You want me to belive now it'll be worth of 250 ulti?! Gj making useless ulti more useless....
---Sorry, that destro ulti is not going to be used on my mDK main, pve or pvp.
You need to reconsider stone fist and its morphs, its a near 3K magicka costing ability that will be doing tiny damage in PvE and PvP areas.
You seriously need to rework the DK in a lot of areas (yes i know, said a million times but 1 year since IC/Update 5 and mDKs have been in a rubbish state PvP since then).
---ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »
I read again and I still see the nerf. It's not any better than before. Its total damage is on slightly higher than before.
You can double the damage, but if you cut the duration in half, then what's the point ? A 6s duration ult for 250 cost is not acceptable.
Its still not as good as meteor in most situations, so I suspect it won't get slotted often, but the fact that it does 20% more damage overall (double damage for 6 seconds from 10) and "Fiery Rage now deals 10% additional damage instead of granting a 100% chance to apply a burning effect." means that it is at least not useless.
My biggest problem with it IMO is that it pretty much only does damage. Meteor also has a burst and knock down, Bats can either heal or make invisible, Soul Tether has a stun and heal, and Veil and Nova have mitigation... There is no utility to it that will make me pick it over a lot of the options that are already available and I'm really not sure in what situation I would use it.
---Moglijuana wrote: »Destro ult is STILL GARBAGE. You really think I'd give up Standard of Might for an AOE that does less damage than the impact hit from meteor? LOL learn to design abilities that aren't stamina related for once, thanks @Wrobel
---luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »GG destro and resto ultis... It was fun spending skill points on you on the PTS where it costs nothing.
---We appreciate that you are (kind of) listening, but you didn't really improve the destruction staff ultimate at all. It's still too weak and costly and has a terrible wind-up time and now too short a duration. The only change that makes sense is the frost immobilize.
It's not too late, you can still rewrite the whole ultimate. The community is almost completely unanimous in wanting a low-cost single-target ultimate. Preferably with an AoE secondary component. Here are some ideas we offered:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/289202/better-ideas-for-destro-ultimates
---The destro ultimate is still inadequate mostly because the cost is simply too high for what it does.
The only interesting morph is permaroot on ice - but this functionality actually got nerfed because it´s only 6s now while before WOE + ice rage was 10s of permaroot (woe applies root on chilled enemies).
Not sufficient.
---zerosingularity wrote: »As others have said, Elemental Storm is still not at the level it should be. The MINOR damage buff is not enough for such a high cost ultimate. If the duration was a base of 10 seconds, then things would be better, but as it is now, can anyone justify using it over Meteor in PvE?
It is nice that each element actually has different effects. Kinda tired of seeing +% damage on the fire morphs of things though. Just shoehorn us into fire staves, we love them fire staves!
Fact is that isn't even all of them, there are a ton more including entire separate threads made AFTER the buffs to the Destro Ult. So many "PTS Champions" went on and on about how overpowered the stamina ultimates were and how the change to the Destro Ultimate was a "NERF".
The "impossibly strong" Bow Ultimate that NO ONE USES was nerfed by 25%, turns out being able to dodge, block, interrupt, CC, cloak and negate a 175 cost ult COMPLETELY, really does render it virtually useless in PVP.
In the end it was the ult everyone was crying about even after the buff that became the one ring to rule them all.
Edited by Toc de Malsvi on January 6, 2017 7:08PMLegendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..1 -
Mx13✭✭✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Fact is that isn't even all of them, there are a ton more including entire separate threads made AFTER the buffs to the Destro Ult. So many "PTS Champions" went on and on about how overpowered the stamina ultimates were and how the change to the Destro Ultimate was a "NERF".
The "impossibly strong" Bow Ultimate that NO ONE USES was nerfed by 25%, turns out being able to dodge, block, interrupt, CC, cloak and negate a 175 cost ult COMPLETELY, really does render it virtually useless in PVP.
In the end it was the ult everyone was crying about even after the buff that became the one ring to rule them all.
You should take the names out of those quotes, naming and shaming its against the rules :P1 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Fact is that isn't even all of them, there are a ton more including entire separate threads made AFTER the buffs to the Destro Ult. So many "PTS Champions" went on and on about how overpowered the stamina ultimates were and how the change to the Destro Ultimate was a "NERF".
The "impossibly strong" Bow Ultimate that NO ONE USES was nerfed by 25%, turns out being able to dodge, block, interrupt, CC, cloak and negate a 175 cost ult COMPLETELY, really does render it virtually useless in PVP.
In the end it was the ult everyone was crying about even after the buff that became the one ring to rule them all.
You should take the names out of those quotes, naming and shaming its against the rules :P
Not shaming, just quoting from the forums, which is not against the rules. Although I appreciate your concern.
Edited by Toc de Malsvi on January 6, 2017 7:27PMLegendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
IxskullzxI✭✭✭✭IxskullzxI wrote: »I totally understand your argument about DB vs Vigor, but I feel that Vigor is quite overpowered right now and I disagree with using it as a benchmark for skill efficiency because of that. However I understand the necessity of keeping skills competitive in the meta so perhaps until Vigor is properly nerfed, all skills will have to compare against it
Dude there is a balance patch once every decade. If Vigor isn't getting nerfed this patch, it probably never is. So it might as well be a benchmark heal.
I put on 5pc trainee and 5pc Black rose. I had 1.6k wpn dmg and 19k stam. Vigor still ticked for 1k. E.g. better than coag until you are missing 20k mana.
Lol
Except coag heals 1300-1800 at 100% mana. So that's false.
Lol
Vigor ticks 6 times. 6 times 1 is 6k. This is in Cyrodiil.
Regardless, coag won't heal you for 1800 at full mana in Cyrodiil. That is the only place that matters. Simple math can prove that.
Damn you're salty aren't you? It takes 6 ticks to hit 6k. And yes, coag does heal you for around that much at full. Not sure why you would use coag at full health anyways. You'd have to be at like 80% for coag to out heal it in 1 burst. Not sure why you're so mad about mDK getting a decent heal bro.#HowDoYouLikeYourDK?1 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭IxskullzxI wrote: »IxskullzxI wrote: »I totally understand your argument about DB vs Vigor, but I feel that Vigor is quite overpowered right now and I disagree with using it as a benchmark for skill efficiency because of that. However I understand the necessity of keeping skills competitive in the meta so perhaps until Vigor is properly nerfed, all skills will have to compare against it
Dude there is a balance patch once every decade. If Vigor isn't getting nerfed this patch, it probably never is. So it might as well be a benchmark heal.
I put on 5pc trainee and 5pc Black rose. I had 1.6k wpn dmg and 19k stam. Vigor still ticked for 1k. E.g. better than coag until you are missing 20k mana.
Lol
Except coag heals 1300-1800 at 100% mana. So that's false.
Lol
Vigor ticks 6 times. 6 times 1 is 6k. This is in Cyrodiil.
Regardless, coag won't heal you for 1800 at full mana in Cyrodiil. That is the only place that matters. Simple math can prove that.
Damn you're salty aren't you? It takes 6 ticks to hit 6k. And yes, coag does heal you for around that much at full. Not sure why you would use coag at full health anyways. You'd have to be at like 80% for coag to out heal it in 1 burst. Not sure why you're so mad about mDK getting a decent heal bro.
Why are you so antagonistic in every DK thread? Ish is a really nice guy and a longtime supporter/contributor to the mDK community. He's spent a lot of time trying to get the mDK the help it needs. You, on the other hand, show up all of a sudden with vitriol and baiting across multiple threads for no apparent reason. Why? What's your deal? If you're happy with the change say so and move on. Honestly I'm half convinced you're a Stamblade out to sabotage the DK community because there's no other explanation for your weird vitriol all over the place.Invictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT6 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭IxskullzxI wrote: »IxskullzxI wrote: »I totally understand your argument about DB vs Vigor, but I feel that Vigor is quite overpowered right now and I disagree with using it as a benchmark for skill efficiency because of that. However I understand the necessity of keeping skills competitive in the meta so perhaps until Vigor is properly nerfed, all skills will have to compare against it
Dude there is a balance patch once every decade. If Vigor isn't getting nerfed this patch, it probably never is. So it might as well be a benchmark heal.
I put on 5pc trainee and 5pc Black rose. I had 1.6k wpn dmg and 19k stam. Vigor still ticked for 1k. E.g. better than coag until you are missing 20k mana.
Lol
Except coag heals 1300-1800 at 100% mana. So that's false.
Lol
Vigor ticks 6 times. 6 times 1 is 6k. This is in Cyrodiil.
Regardless, coag won't heal you for 1800 at full mana in Cyrodiil. That is the only place that matters. Simple math can prove that.
Damn you're salty aren't you? It takes 6 ticks to hit 6k. And yes, coag does heal you for around that much at full. Not sure why you would use coag at full health anyways. You'd have to be at like 80% for coag to out heal it in 1 burst. Not sure why you're so mad about mDK getting a decent heal bro.
The change to coag heals based on missing magicka. That's what he means, he said full mana and not health.
I still disagree about people saying vigor would be better for a mag build. The comparison isn't helpful.
The coag change is useful in prolonged fights and fails when being ganked. If you are able to see your opponent coming and buff up, the missing magicka would mean a decentish heal. It doesn't hurt those who build sustain nearly as much as some people think.
This change is strange. It varies from a near useless heal when you potentially need it most, to being one of the strongest in the game when you have no more magicka to spend.
I would still like to see db scale off missing hp but not by a flat percentage. Given it a base value, based off health or magicka, and then modify it based off your missing hp... or magicka if they wanna stick with that route. It needs some type of base value though. This way it still has its identity and gains slightly more universal effeciency.1 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭BlackMadara wrote: »The change to coag heals based on missing magicka. That's what he means, he said full mana and not health.
I still disagree about people saying vigor would be better for a mag build. The comparison isn't helpful.
The coag change is useful in prolonged fights and fails when being ganked. If you are able to see your opponent coming and buff up, the missing magicka would mean a decentish heal. It doesn't hurt those who build sustain nearly as much as some people think.
This change is strange. It varies from a near useless heal when you potentially need it most, to being one of the strongest in the game when you have no more magicka to spend.
I would still like to see db scale off missing hp but not by a flat percentage. Given it a base value, based off health or magicka, and then modify it based off your missing hp... or magicka if they wanna stick with that route. It needs some type of base value though. This way it still has its identity and gains slightly more universal effeciency.
It should be very strong when facing anyone who is not virtually one shotting you. Which is most situations given you haven't built entirely defenseless. Good magicka sustain should mean, that if your magicka gets low in the middle of a fight, which is still likely, that you will be able to fire off a very strong self heal repeatedly.
It scales very well to encourage, strong offensive pushing to put magicka low enough to have a very effective heal provided you actually need to go defensive. It is not a strong defense against purely being ganked. However there are other more costly spells that can be used to survive long enough to get to a very strong self heal, which will in turn reverse the fight to your advantage.
Edited by Toc de Malsvi on January 6, 2017 7:53PMLegendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IxskullzxI wrote: »You'd have to be at like 80% for coag to out heal it in 1 burst.
What you have just described is the absolute best case in which you could receive a heal from coag. What I described was roughly the worst case of using vigor, I.e. on a Magicka build. And they heal... About the same amount.
Coag and Vigor cost *roughly* the same amount of resources.
When specced properly, Vigor will be ticking for approx 2-3k and critting for 3-5k. It will also heal all of the allies in its AoE.
In most use case scenarios, a mDK will have approx 20k missing mana (I.e. half mana). That yields 20k/3/2 = wait for it.... 3.3k!!! And you'll crit in the 5k range.
Of course, both players can add +healing. And there will be some scenarios where you can get a nice 10k heal out of coag.
However, in the average battle scenario Vigor is 6x more cost efficient than Coag (because it ticks 6 times). It saves you 4 GCDs because you only have to cast it every 5s. That is, you can still fight while healing! Which is the most important advantage of HoTs.
When you factor in the AoE heals, which you get for free, Vigors is an order of magnitude more efficient than Coag.
TLDR: nerfDKs2 -
IxskullzxI✭✭✭✭IxskullzxI wrote: »IxskullzxI wrote: »I totally understand your argument about DB vs Vigor, but I feel that Vigor is quite overpowered right now and I disagree with using it as a benchmark for skill efficiency because of that. However I understand the necessity of keeping skills competitive in the meta so perhaps until Vigor is properly nerfed, all skills will have to compare against it
Dude there is a balance patch once every decade. If Vigor isn't getting nerfed this patch, it probably never is. So it might as well be a benchmark heal.
I put on 5pc trainee and 5pc Black rose. I had 1.6k wpn dmg and 19k stam. Vigor still ticked for 1k. E.g. better than coag until you are missing 20k mana.
Lol
Except coag heals 1300-1800 at 100% mana. So that's false.
Lol
Vigor ticks 6 times. 6 times 1 is 6k. This is in Cyrodiil.
Regardless, coag won't heal you for 1800 at full mana in Cyrodiil. That is the only place that matters. Simple math can prove that.
Damn you're salty aren't you? It takes 6 ticks to hit 6k. And yes, coag does heal you for around that much at full. Not sure why you would use coag at full health anyways. You'd have to be at like 80% for coag to out heal it in 1 burst. Not sure why you're so mad about mDK getting a decent heal bro.
Why are you so antagonistic in every DK thread? Ish is a really nice guy and a longtime supporter/contributor to the mDK community. He's spent a lot of time trying to get the mDK the help it needs. You, on the other hand, show up all of a sudden with vitriol and baiting across multiple threads for no apparent reason. Why? What's your deal? If you're happy with the change say so and move on. Honestly I'm half convinced you're a Stamblade out to sabotage the DK community because there's no other explanation for your weird vitriol all over the place.
Because him, and a few other people, like to make up ridiculous scenarios to try to make their point. Im sure he is a nice guy, but he sure isn't acting like it, along with how many other people, the day the patch notes dropping just ripping zos a new one. This community is toxic. You all just *** and cry because they didnt add your 20 page document of changes to the dk. Thats why Im salty. These forums are just a small group of people that have been here since launch circle jerking each other. It's no wonder why zos never commented on any of the dk threads. No one is even willing to give the cDB change a chance.#HowDoYouLikeYourDK?1 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭IxskullzxI wrote: »Because him, and a few other people, like to make up ridiculous scenarios to try to make their point. Im sure he is a nice guy, but he sure isn't acting like it, along with how many other people, the day the patch notes dropping just ripping zos a new one. This community is toxic. You all just *** and cry because they didnt add your 20 page document of changes to the dk. Thats why Im salty. These forums are just a small group of people that have been here since launch circle jerking each other. It's no wonder why zos never commented on any of the dk threads. No one is even willing to give the cDB change a chance.
Look at your posts and tell me you haven't been toxic to the DK community lately from day 1. This is the PTS, we need to beat the crap out of this skill with debate because we won't get another chance for another year. Unless you want to help contribute to the debate there is no reason to be here, your toxicity isn't helping nor is it changing any minds. Contribute by giving your side, your point of view, backed by your reasons, without the hate, that is what we need.Edited by Armitas on January 6, 2017 9:25PMRetired.
Nord mDK2 -
IxskullzxI✭✭✭✭IxskullzxI wrote: »Because him, and a few other people, like to make up ridiculous scenarios to try to make their point. Im sure he is a nice guy, but he sure isn't acting like it, along with how many other people, the day the patch notes dropping just ripping zos a new one. This community is toxic. You all just *** and cry because they didnt add your 20 page document of changes to the dk. Thats why Im salty. These forums are just a small group of people that have been here since launch circle jerking each other. It's no wonder why zos never commented on any of the dk threads. No one is even willing to give the cDB change a chance.
Look at your posts and tell me you haven't been toxic to the DK community lately from day 1. This is the PTS, we need to beat the crap out of this skill with debate because we won't get another chance for another year. Unless you want to help contribute to the debate there is no reason to be here, your toxicity isn't helping nor is it changing any minds. Contribute by giving your side, your point of view, backed by your reasons, without the hate, that is what we need.
Is that what the first few pages of the dk feedback thread was? You guys having a debate? Looked more like complaining about changes that you didn't even test. Either way, this isn't contributing anything to anything so we might as well drop it here.#HowDoYouLikeYourDK?0 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IxskullzxI wrote: »No one is even willing to give the cDB change a chance.
I have spent the last 3 days giving Coagulating a chance on PTS. This heal is entirely situational and is completely unacceptable for a buff we have been begging ZOS for the past 1 1/2 years. Who are you to come here and tell us we are all wrong, people that are actually testing this?
We asked for a reliable self-heal as intended from our built-in class heal, not some stupid complex for complexity sake a 5 year old thought of.Edited by Lord_Hev on January 6, 2017 9:36PM0 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is how the tooltip for Dragon Blood should read: "heals for 33% of you missing health. Exempt from battle spirit".
The distinction between morphs can remain or change, I don't care.
That's it... And all anyone ever really asked for. I would trade every single change in this patch for that.2 -
Quantum_VClass RepresentativeIxskullzxI wrote: »No one is even willing to give the cDB change a chance.
Well, I won't get in the merit of your saltiness, let's keep to the topic, even though I think you should start controlling your enthusiasm with a little more wire pulling - specially as you're coming out as a little disrespectful. Anyways...
This thread was made in order to get different insights and opinions, hopefully find room for improvement (which always exists). Additionally, we need to complain about what we don't like, what we think is wrong. If you think cDB is going to be in a good state, sure, argue about it, bring some numbers in, some situations and we can have a healthy discussion about it.
Most of us, who play the magicka DK class, have been realizing that some aspects of the class are not working, and trust us, most of us here tested stuff on the PTS, the thread was made before the PTS came out in order to start discussions based on Patch Notes. Of course our insights won't be as accurate as when PTS came out, but neither will they be as accurate as when it comes live - which in that case, it'll be too late, 'cause Zenimax, even with their effort to make this game better, release patches every so often... we've been in the dark for 1.5 years, now we have a chance to change it, we don't want to wait another year to see improvements which are always a potential gain.
EVEN if all the magicka DKs were fine with the change (which we're clearly not) threads would come up to try to make them better, that's what the community wants, that's what ZoS want... they want feedback, so we're giving it to them.
Please don't try to be an obstacle to better change, we're not crying, we're discussing for a improvement.Edited by Quantum_V on January 6, 2017 9:51PM0 -
IxskullzxI✭✭✭✭IxskullzxI wrote: »No one is even willing to give the cDB change a chance.
Well, I won't get in the merit of your saltiness, let's keep to the topic, even though I think you should start controlling your enthusiasm with a little more wire pulling - specially as you're coming out as a little disrespectful. Anyways...
This thread was made in order to get different insights and opinions, hopefully find room for improvement (which always exists). Additionally, we need to complain about what we don't like, what we think is wrong. If you think cDB is going to be in a good state, sure, argue about it, bring some numbers in, some situations and we can have a healthy discussion about it.
Most of us, who play the magicka DK class, have been realizing that some aspects of the class are not working, and trust us, most of us here tested stuff on the PTS, the thread was made before the PTS came out in order to start discussions based on Patch Notes. Of course our insights won't be as accurate as when PTS came out, but neither will they be as accurate as when it comes live - which in that case, it'll be too late, 'cause Zenimax, even with their effort to make this game better, release patches every so often... we've been in the dark for 1.5 years, now we have a chance to change it, we don't want to wait another year to see improvements which are always a potential gain.
EVEN if all the magicka DKs were fine with the change (which we're clearly not) threads would come up to try to make them better, that's what the community wants, that's what ZoS want... they want feedback, so we're giving it to them.
Please don't try to be an obstacle to better change, we're not crying, we're discussing for a improvement.
As Ish said above, the only thing that needed to happen to db was to make it ignore battle spirit. That's not what we got, and I don't think that will change now. The pts version of cDB would be way too high if it ignored battle spirit, and I don't think they will just make one morph ignore battle spirit. What changes could happen to make the skill better? 33% total magicka or 33% missing + a flat heal would be nice, but you would get absurd values in PvE.#HowDoYouLikeYourDK?0 -
Quantum_VClass RepresentativeIxskullzxI wrote: »IxskullzxI wrote: »No one is even willing to give the cDB change a chance.
Well, I won't get in the merit of your saltiness, let's keep to the topic, even though I think you should start controlling your enthusiasm with a little more wire pulling - specially as you're coming out as a little disrespectful. Anyways...
This thread was made in order to get different insights and opinions, hopefully find room for improvement (which always exists). Additionally, we need to complain about what we don't like, what we think is wrong. If you think cDB is going to be in a good state, sure, argue about it, bring some numbers in, some situations and we can have a healthy discussion about it.
Most of us, who play the magicka DK class, have been realizing that some aspects of the class are not working, and trust us, most of us here tested stuff on the PTS, the thread was made before the PTS came out in order to start discussions based on Patch Notes. Of course our insights won't be as accurate as when PTS came out, but neither will they be as accurate as when it comes live - which in that case, it'll be too late, 'cause Zenimax, even with their effort to make this game better, release patches every so often... we've been in the dark for 1.5 years, now we have a chance to change it, we don't want to wait another year to see improvements which are always a potential gain.
EVEN if all the magicka DKs were fine with the change (which we're clearly not) threads would come up to try to make them better, that's what the community wants, that's what ZoS want... they want feedback, so we're giving it to them.
Please don't try to be an obstacle to better change, we're not crying, we're discussing for a improvement.
As Ish said above, the only thing that needed to happen to db was to make it ignore battle spirit. That's not what we got, and I don't think that will change now. The pts version of cDB would be way too high if it ignored battle spirit, and I don't think they will just make one morph ignore battle spirit. What changes could happen to make the skill better? 33% total magicka or 33% missing + a flat heal would be nice, but you would get absurd values in PvE.
Now we're talking. I think that ignoring battle spirit completely will be a bit too strong. Maybe make battle spirit affect it a little bit less, lets say 20% less (?). Add a flat healing value to cDB too.
@GinaBruno I'd really appreciate it you guys could read this thread, might find something helpfull!
Thank you! 0
on when i saw it.