(Update 13) Dragon/Coagulating blood change is not a good idea. (OPEN WORLD PvP)

Sugaroverdose

Didgerion wrote: »

CarlosO wrote: »

Let's work with maths here again:

You're low magicka and low health, lets say you're at 10% magicka, you've got 36k missing magicka (that might not even be enough magicka to pop another dragons blood, lol, but lets keep on) this is 11.8k, with battle spirit it'll be a 6k heal, which ok, it's a ok heal... now consider that after this you've got no magicka what so ever, you can pot, and ulti, which will help you balance your magicka out, but now, pressing your 'oh s*it heal' will call in a 'oh s*it ulti', which soon enough will become a 'oh s*it heal again' that you'll not be able to do anything now duo to lack of magicka and insane pressure from proc sets and other sources.

In a more realistic scenario, you wont be sitting at 10% magicka, of course, so lets say you're a 20% which is reasonable, 32k missing health, 10.5k heal, with Battle Spirit, 5.2k heal. Not to bad it seems, but again, you'll need to constantely be on that risk zone, that any high burst stamina NB or sorc filled with proc sets will quickly get you out from.

Basically, lets analyse some issues that this will bring.

- Gankers: Basically if you get ganked, you'll have no counterplay to that, your magicka will be full, but your health will be sitting at a brink of extinction. How do you recover? No heals from Dragon Blood, not enough time to build up a burning embers after a gank, power lash won't give you a big enough heal to get you out of execute range (if you even get the time to root the ganker and lash him twice - honestly - really unlikely).



#BuffDragonBlood

Please note that 5.2k heal is the un-buffed heal.
It can Crit!
It can be increased by CPs
It can be increased by buffs and passives

I'm sure you can get 10k heals out of the new blood after patch - or even more.

Now have you noticed the frost destro staff changes?

Take a look, blocking will deplete your magica now.
Just get a frost destro staff and block+root+debuf the ganker.
And when your magica is low heal to full health.
Heavy armor will help alot to turn the ganker's burst down.

So Magica DKs with Fire Staff/ Frost Staff in heavy armor = OP

Too bad you don't see the OPness here.

what the f is op if you cannot damage? i can invest everything in health and healing and get ridiciusly huge CDB ticks but what's next? frost staff is for magplars

Xvorg

LinearParadox wrote: »

So here's something that really grinds my gears every time I read one of these threads about Dragon Blood... you're always off-target by a wide margin. In your (I'm guessing) quest to communicate 'just how bad' Dragon Blood is, you leave out so much in your math...

OP's math is wrong, but it's in a vaccum, a really terrible, unrealistic one...
-Draconic power passive (12%)
-Heavy armor (8%)
-Blessed CP (variable but easily 5% or more)
-Quick Recovery (variable but easily 5% or more)
-Major Mending (30%)
All powerful %healing bonuses, easily acessable to the DK.

Then there's fringe bonuses such as, but not limited to...
-Argonial racial passives (+5% taken, +5% done)
-Malubeth (30%)

Oh, and it can CRIT. And those crits are amplified by the Elfborn CP star which can even further multiply. +50% crit BASE with another variable % stacked on top of that from CP modifying the critical values.

It's not hard as a DK to get EASILY +50-75% Healing above tooltip values, and even more if you push it. Crits can spike that, cumulatively with other bonuses, to over 100% bonuses. So please, stop these absurd vaccum mathematics, especially if you ever want to be taken seriously.
You want to argue values, go ahead, but argue the REAL values.

I stopped readin when I read the word "CRIT".

No decent mDK builds around crits because they need to cope other things (res regen, spell dmg, magicka pool, mitigation). Crit chance is the last thing a mDK worries about

Didgerion

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

CarlosO wrote: »

Let's work with maths here again:

You're low magicka and low health, lets say you're at 10% magicka, you've got 36k missing magicka (that might not even be enough magicka to pop another dragons blood, lol, but lets keep on) this is 11.8k, with battle spirit it'll be a 6k heal, which ok, it's a ok heal... now consider that after this you've got no magicka what so ever, you can pot, and ulti, which will help you balance your magicka out, but now, pressing your 'oh s*it heal' will call in a 'oh s*it ulti', which soon enough will become a 'oh s*it heal again' that you'll not be able to do anything now duo to lack of magicka and insane pressure from proc sets and other sources.

In a more realistic scenario, you wont be sitting at 10% magicka, of course, so lets say you're a 20% which is reasonable, 32k missing health, 10.5k heal, with Battle Spirit, 5.2k heal. Not to bad it seems, but again, you'll need to constantely be on that risk zone, that any high burst stamina NB or sorc filled with proc sets will quickly get you out from.

Basically, lets analyse some issues that this will bring.

- Gankers: Basically if you get ganked, you'll have no counterplay to that, your magicka will be full, but your health will be sitting at a brink of extinction. How do you recover? No heals from Dragon Blood, not enough time to build up a burning embers after a gank, power lash won't give you a big enough heal to get you out of execute range (if you even get the time to root the ganker and lash him twice - honestly - really unlikely).



#BuffDragonBlood

Please note that 5.2k heal is the un-buffed heal.
It can Crit!
It can be increased by CPs
It can be increased by buffs and passives

I'm sure you can get 10k heals out of the new blood after patch - or even more.

Now have you noticed the frost destro staff changes?

Take a look, blocking will deplete your magica now.
Just get a frost destro staff and block+root+debuf the ganker.
And when your magica is low heal to full health.
Heavy armor will help alot to turn the ganker's burst down.

So Magica DKs with Fire Staff/ Frost Staff in heavy armor = OP

Too bad you don't see the OPness here.

what the f is op if you cannot damage? i can invest everything in health and healing and get ridiciusly huge CDB ticks but what's next? frost staff is for magplars

Oh man, you just need to learn DKs. with 40k magica pool you can do lots of damage while with 40k health - not really.

Ok so here is step by step how to kill the ganker:
1. Ganker attaks you with a fancy one shot combo.
2. You loose half health and half stamina to break free.
3. Switch to destro staff, now you can block all his damage while your magica is drained.
4. While holding block root the ganker, debuf him with major fracture and buff yourself with Major Mending
5. Heal to almost full health
6. Desto ult the ganker (all your resources are back now)
7. Keep the ganker rooted
8. You can watch him die!
9. and of course You can whip him here and there just to give him a lesson.

Magica dks will be the ultimate gank busters.

kojou

IMO we should test and see how it works before we give feedback.

There are lots of appealing combinations... For example Lich or Warlock: Wait for your magicka to get close to proc'ing and then cast CDB. You get a burst heal and a burst magicka. There are also Desert Rose, Syrobane and Magicka Furnace to consider...

If you take a lot of damage you can use Harness Magicka or Annulment for defense and then cast CDB when your magic is low enough to make sense.

Lets test some options and then come back with advice.

Armitas

Didgerion wrote: »

Take a look, blocking will deplete your magica now.
Just get a frost destro staff and block+root+debuf the ganker.
And when your magica is low heal to full health.
Heavy armor will help alot to turn the ganker's burst down.

Depleting your magicka is not something you should be excited about.

Didgerion

Armitas wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Take a look, blocking will deplete your magica now.
Just get a frost destro staff and block+root+debuf the ganker.
And when your magica is low heal to full health.
Heavy armor will help alot to turn the ganker's burst down.

Depleting your magicka is not something you should be excited about.

Oh yes sir, as a DK I'm very exited to be able to drain my magica in a controlled way while not taking damage.

ZoM_Head

The number of Templars out there that use one breath of life and go from 10% to nearly 80% health for a cheaper heal is countless.

Healing ward is more reliable, i saw 12K crit heals from it after it expired at around 15% health or so (could be 20% health).

Getting 3.5K-6K heals from it for the cost of it and what mDKs need to achieve this is just not worth having in Cyrodiil.

Right now, i still use Healing Ward and Resto Ulti for my light mDK in open world running solo.

I am so dissapointed with this decision, it seriously makes no sense to do that, just a decent heal is what we asked for since IC was released. Remove those percentages if they have to, just a decent heal.

agegarton

DHale wrote: »

You should test it before posting. It reflects upon us all. As I recall people complained on the forum about destro ult being a wet noodle. I think that turned out to be false.

Totally agree. Posting based on patch notes seems precipitous at best. I well remember everyone on here telling the Destro ult was useless (too expensive, under powered, not worth the skill point...etc.).

Sugaroverdose

Didgerion wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

CarlosO wrote: »

Let's work with maths here again:

You're low magicka and low health, lets say you're at 10% magicka, you've got 36k missing magicka (that might not even be enough magicka to pop another dragons blood, lol, but lets keep on) this is 11.8k, with battle spirit it'll be a 6k heal, which ok, it's a ok heal... now consider that after this you've got no magicka what so ever, you can pot, and ulti, which will help you balance your magicka out, but now, pressing your 'oh s*it heal' will call in a 'oh s*it ulti', which soon enough will become a 'oh s*it heal again' that you'll not be able to do anything now duo to lack of magicka and insane pressure from proc sets and other sources.

In a more realistic scenario, you wont be sitting at 10% magicka, of course, so lets say you're a 20% which is reasonable, 32k missing health, 10.5k heal, with Battle Spirit, 5.2k heal. Not to bad it seems, but again, you'll need to constantely be on that risk zone, that any high burst stamina NB or sorc filled with proc sets will quickly get you out from.

Basically, lets analyse some issues that this will bring.

- Gankers: Basically if you get ganked, you'll have no counterplay to that, your magicka will be full, but your health will be sitting at a brink of extinction. How do you recover? No heals from Dragon Blood, not enough time to build up a burning embers after a gank, power lash won't give you a big enough heal to get you out of execute range (if you even get the time to root the ganker and lash him twice - honestly - really unlikely).



#BuffDragonBlood

Please note that 5.2k heal is the un-buffed heal.
It can Crit!
It can be increased by CPs
It can be increased by buffs and passives

I'm sure you can get 10k heals out of the new blood after patch - or even more.

Now have you noticed the frost destro staff changes?

Take a look, blocking will deplete your magica now.
Just get a frost destro staff and block+root+debuf the ganker.
And when your magica is low heal to full health.
Heavy armor will help alot to turn the ganker's burst down.

So Magica DKs with Fire Staff/ Frost Staff in heavy armor = OP

Too bad you don't see the OPness here.

what the f is op if you cannot damage? i can invest everything in health and healing and get ridiciusly huge CDB ticks but what's next? frost staff is for magplars

Oh man, you just need to learn DKs. with 40k magica pool you can do lots of damage while with 40k health - not really.

Ok so here is step by step how to kill the ganker:
1. Ganker attaks you with a fancy one shot combo.
2. You loose half health and half stamina to break free.
3. Switch to destro staff, now you can block all his damage while your magica is drained.
4. While holding block root the ganker, debuf him with major fracture and buff yourself with Major Mending
5. Heal to almost full health
6. Desto ult the ganker (all your resources are back now)
7. Keep the ganker rooted
8. You can watch him die!
9. and of course You can whip him here and there just to give him a lesson.

Magica dks will be the ultimate gank busters.

good job pretending that everyone are an idiots.
Where the hell you've seen such cheap gankers?
I get from 30k to 8k from one combo in HA, so lets pretend you are running HA with destro.
While you rooting and do other awesome things you already dead cause you're in execute range and proc sets still proc
Heal to almost full health? With ~1200 block cost 40k magicka will be drained out in 20 seconds, so you must survive without heal for at least 10 seconds and pray gods that ganker will LA+something which does not do damage at all

why the f should i have 250 ultimate and destro ult?

i already can kill 2 proctarding gankers with CDB, with new one i wouldn't survive at all. Anyway i'll just switch to GDB.

Derra

CPT_CAPSLOCK wrote: »

I think to undestand this change you have to take a look at the froststaff changes and how it synergies with it.
Maybe the idea is to have small heals with embers and lashes as long as you have enough mag to block, cause u dont need a high heal if you can block and as soon as you can not block anymore cause you are running out of mag you get a high burst heal.

//not saying the amount of heal you get from it is balanced

Problem is simply when you´re oom you´re toast anyways.

Didgerion

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

CarlosO wrote: »

Let's work with maths here again:

You're low magicka and low health, lets say you're at 10% magicka, you've got 36k missing magicka (that might not even be enough magicka to pop another dragons blood, lol, but lets keep on) this is 11.8k, with battle spirit it'll be a 6k heal, which ok, it's a ok heal... now consider that after this you've got no magicka what so ever, you can pot, and ulti, which will help you balance your magicka out, but now, pressing your 'oh s*it heal' will call in a 'oh s*it ulti', which soon enough will become a 'oh s*it heal again' that you'll not be able to do anything now duo to lack of magicka and insane pressure from proc sets and other sources.

In a more realistic scenario, you wont be sitting at 10% magicka, of course, so lets say you're a 20% which is reasonable, 32k missing health, 10.5k heal, with Battle Spirit, 5.2k heal. Not to bad it seems, but again, you'll need to constantely be on that risk zone, that any high burst stamina NB or sorc filled with proc sets will quickly get you out from.

Basically, lets analyse some issues that this will bring.

- Gankers: Basically if you get ganked, you'll have no counterplay to that, your magicka will be full, but your health will be sitting at a brink of extinction. How do you recover? No heals from Dragon Blood, not enough time to build up a burning embers after a gank, power lash won't give you a big enough heal to get you out of execute range (if you even get the time to root the ganker and lash him twice - honestly - really unlikely).



#BuffDragonBlood

Please note that 5.2k heal is the un-buffed heal.
It can Crit!
It can be increased by CPs
It can be increased by buffs and passives

I'm sure you can get 10k heals out of the new blood after patch - or even more.

Now have you noticed the frost destro staff changes?

Take a look, blocking will deplete your magica now.
Just get a frost destro staff and block+root+debuf the ganker.
And when your magica is low heal to full health.
Heavy armor will help alot to turn the ganker's burst down.

So Magica DKs with Fire Staff/ Frost Staff in heavy armor = OP

Too bad you don't see the OPness here.

what the f is op if you cannot damage? i can invest everything in health and healing and get ridiciusly huge CDB ticks but what's next? frost staff is for magplars

Oh man, you just need to learn DKs. with 40k magica pool you can do lots of damage while with 40k health - not really.

Ok so here is step by step how to kill the ganker:
1. Ganker attaks you with a fancy one shot combo.
2. You loose half health and half stamina to break free.
3. Switch to destro staff, now you can block all his damage while your magica is drained.
4. While holding block root the ganker, debuf him with major fracture and buff yourself with Major Mending
5. Heal to almost full health
6. Desto ult the ganker (all your resources are back now)
7. Keep the ganker rooted
8. You can watch him die!
9. and of course You can whip him here and there just to give him a lesson.

Magica dks will be the ultimate gank busters.

good job pretending that everyone are an idiots.
Where the hell you've seen such cheap gankers?
I get from 30k to 8k from one combo in HA, so lets pretend you are running HA with destro.
While you rooting and do other awesome things you already dead cause you're in execute range and proc sets still proc
Heal to almost full health? With ~1200 block cost 40k magicka will be drained out in 20 seconds, so you must survive without heal for at least 10 seconds and pray gods that ganker will LA+something which does not do damage at all

why the f should i have 250 ultimate and destro ult?

i already can kill 2 proctarding gankers with CDB, with new one i wouldn't survive at all. Anyway i'll just switch to GDB.

Come here in few days and tell me that you are still sticking to GDB.

Some streamers are showing 24k heals (12k in cyrodiil) using CDB on PTS right now.

Adenoma

I guess I don't really care if I get a 12k heal in Cyrodiil if it means I'm totally out of magicka after. I can do 12k of damage to a player faster than they can regen to use an expensive skill like CDB.

Armitas

iirc on live dragonblood heals for 1 health while at full health. I don't see that being different at 100% magicka. We don't need to see numbers to see that getting ganked at 100% magicka will be a problem. We don't need to wait on that particular complaint.

pieratsos

Didgerion wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

CarlosO wrote: »

Let's work with maths here again:

You're low magicka and low health, lets say you're at 10% magicka, you've got 36k missing magicka (that might not even be enough magicka to pop another dragons blood, lol, but lets keep on) this is 11.8k, with battle spirit it'll be a 6k heal, which ok, it's a ok heal... now consider that after this you've got no magicka what so ever, you can pot, and ulti, which will help you balance your magicka out, but now, pressing your 'oh s*it heal' will call in a 'oh s*it ulti', which soon enough will become a 'oh s*it heal again' that you'll not be able to do anything now duo to lack of magicka and insane pressure from proc sets and other sources.

In a more realistic scenario, you wont be sitting at 10% magicka, of course, so lets say you're a 20% which is reasonable, 32k missing health, 10.5k heal, with Battle Spirit, 5.2k heal. Not to bad it seems, but again, you'll need to constantely be on that risk zone, that any high burst stamina NB or sorc filled with proc sets will quickly get you out from.

Basically, lets analyse some issues that this will bring.

- Gankers: Basically if you get ganked, you'll have no counterplay to that, your magicka will be full, but your health will be sitting at a brink of extinction. How do you recover? No heals from Dragon Blood, not enough time to build up a burning embers after a gank, power lash won't give you a big enough heal to get you out of execute range (if you even get the time to root the ganker and lash him twice - honestly - really unlikely).



#BuffDragonBlood

Please note that 5.2k heal is the un-buffed heal.
It can Crit!
It can be increased by CPs
It can be increased by buffs and passives

I'm sure you can get 10k heals out of the new blood after patch - or even more.

Now have you noticed the frost destro staff changes?

Take a look, blocking will deplete your magica now.
Just get a frost destro staff and block+root+debuf the ganker.
And when your magica is low heal to full health.
Heavy armor will help alot to turn the ganker's burst down.

So Magica DKs with Fire Staff/ Frost Staff in heavy armor = OP

Too bad you don't see the OPness here.

what the f is op if you cannot damage? i can invest everything in health and healing and get ridiciusly huge CDB ticks but what's next? frost staff is for magplars

Oh man, you just need to learn DKs. with 40k magica pool you can do lots of damage while with 40k health - not really.

Ok so here is step by step how to kill the ganker:
1. Ganker attaks you with a fancy one shot combo.
2. You loose half health and half stamina to break free.
3. Switch to destro staff, now you can block all his damage while your magica is drained.
4. While holding block root the ganker, debuf him with major fracture and buff yourself with Major Mending
5. Heal to almost full health
6. Desto ult the ganker (all your resources are back now)
7. Keep the ganker rooted
8. You can watch him die!
9. and of course You can whip him here and there just to give him a lesson.

Magica dks will be the ultimate gank busters.

good job pretending that everyone are an idiots.
Where the hell you've seen such cheap gankers?
I get from 30k to 8k from one combo in HA, so lets pretend you are running HA with destro.
While you rooting and do other awesome things you already dead cause you're in execute range and proc sets still proc
Heal to almost full health? With ~1200 block cost 40k magicka will be drained out in 20 seconds, so you must survive without heal for at least 10 seconds and pray gods that ganker will LA+something which does not do damage at all

why the f should i have 250 ultimate and destro ult?

i already can kill 2 proctarding gankers with CDB, with new one i wouldn't survive at all. Anyway i'll just switch to GDB.

Come here in few days and tell me that you are still sticking to GDB.

Some streamers are showing 24k heals (12k in cyrodiil) using CDB on PTS right now.

Its not about the size of the heal. Its about the fact that u cant rely on it. Its literally punishing the player for having good sustain.

Sugaroverdose

Didgerion wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

CarlosO wrote: »

Let's work with maths here again:

You're low magicka and low health, lets say you're at 10% magicka, you've got 36k missing magicka (that might not even be enough magicka to pop another dragons blood, lol, but lets keep on) this is 11.8k, with battle spirit it'll be a 6k heal, which ok, it's a ok heal... now consider that after this you've got no magicka what so ever, you can pot, and ulti, which will help you balance your magicka out, but now, pressing your 'oh s*it heal' will call in a 'oh s*it ulti', which soon enough will become a 'oh s*it heal again' that you'll not be able to do anything now duo to lack of magicka and insane pressure from proc sets and other sources.

In a more realistic scenario, you wont be sitting at 10% magicka, of course, so lets say you're a 20% which is reasonable, 32k missing health, 10.5k heal, with Battle Spirit, 5.2k heal. Not to bad it seems, but again, you'll need to constantely be on that risk zone, that any high burst stamina NB or sorc filled with proc sets will quickly get you out from.

Basically, lets analyse some issues that this will bring.

- Gankers: Basically if you get ganked, you'll have no counterplay to that, your magicka will be full, but your health will be sitting at a brink of extinction. How do you recover? No heals from Dragon Blood, not enough time to build up a burning embers after a gank, power lash won't give you a big enough heal to get you out of execute range (if you even get the time to root the ganker and lash him twice - honestly - really unlikely).



#BuffDragonBlood

Please note that 5.2k heal is the un-buffed heal.
It can Crit!
It can be increased by CPs
It can be increased by buffs and passives

I'm sure you can get 10k heals out of the new blood after patch - or even more.

Now have you noticed the frost destro staff changes?

Take a look, blocking will deplete your magica now.
Just get a frost destro staff and block+root+debuf the ganker.
And when your magica is low heal to full health.
Heavy armor will help alot to turn the ganker's burst down.

So Magica DKs with Fire Staff/ Frost Staff in heavy armor = OP

Too bad you don't see the OPness here.

what the f is op if you cannot damage? i can invest everything in health and healing and get ridiciusly huge CDB ticks but what's next? frost staff is for magplars

Oh man, you just need to learn DKs. with 40k magica pool you can do lots of damage while with 40k health - not really.

Ok so here is step by step how to kill the ganker:
1. Ganker attaks you with a fancy one shot combo.
2. You loose half health and half stamina to break free.
3. Switch to destro staff, now you can block all his damage while your magica is drained.
4. While holding block root the ganker, debuf him with major fracture and buff yourself with Major Mending
5. Heal to almost full health
6. Desto ult the ganker (all your resources are back now)
7. Keep the ganker rooted
8. You can watch him die!
9. and of course You can whip him here and there just to give him a lesson.

Magica dks will be the ultimate gank busters.

good job pretending that everyone are an idiots.
Where the hell you've seen such cheap gankers?
I get from 30k to 8k from one combo in HA, so lets pretend you are running HA with destro.
While you rooting and do other awesome things you already dead cause you're in execute range and proc sets still proc
Heal to almost full health? With ~1200 block cost 40k magicka will be drained out in 20 seconds, so you must survive without heal for at least 10 seconds and pray gods that ganker will LA+something which does not do damage at all

why the f should i have 250 ultimate and destro ult?

i already can kill 2 proctarding gankers with CDB, with new one i wouldn't survive at all. Anyway i'll just switch to GDB.

Come here in few days and tell me that you are still sticking to GDB.

Some streamers are showing 24k heals (12k in cyrodiil) using CDB on PTS right now.

It means, that CDB is untouched by battle spirit and I won't be surprised that it will be fixed

Rikumaru

DHale wrote: »

You should test it before posting. It reflects upon us all. As I recall people complained on the forum about destro ult being a wet noodle. I think that turned out to be false.

They buffed it by 100% more damage after people complained about it.

LinearParadox

pieratsos wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

So here's something that really grinds my gears every time I read one of these threads about Dragon Blood... you're always off-target by a wide margin. In your (I'm guessing) quest to communicate 'just how bad' Dragon Blood is, you leave out so much in your math...

OP's math is wrong, but it's in a vaccum, a really terrible, unrealistic one...
-Draconic power passive (12%)
-Heavy armor (8%)
-Blessed CP (variable but easily 5% or more)
-Quick Recovery (variable but easily 5% or more)
-Major Mending (30%)
Vitality Pots (30%)
All powerful %healing bonuses, easily acessable to the DK.

Then there's fringe bonuses such as, but not limited to...
-Argonial racial passives (+5% taken, +5% done)
-Malubeth (30%)

Oh, and it can CRIT. And those crits are amplified by the Elfborn CP star which can even further multiply. +50% crit BASE with another variable % stacked on top of that from CP modifying the critical values.

It's not hard as a DK to get EASILY +50-75% Healing above tooltip values, and even more if you push it. Crits can spike that, cumulatively with other bonuses, to over 100% bonuses. So please, stop these absurd vaccum mathematics, especially if you ever want to be taken seriously.
You want to argue values, go ahead, but argue the REAL values.

Great you just proved how bad dragon blood is. You just said dragon blood can be decent if u take prety much every available healing bonus in the game. Not everyone want to run heavy armor, malu, cp to blessed and quick recovery, vitality pots and argonian. The fact that dragon blood need those buffs to be decent is a proof of how bad it is. I find it funny tho how u talk about crit and heavy armor considering that u are losing crit when u put on heavy armor. The only one who is off target here its you. And if u really want to talk about "REAL" values go and put breath of life and vigor under those buffs and then come here to tell people how wrong they are.

And you just proved you missed basically all of what I was saying. Great.

There are few-to-no sacrifices made to receive most of those healing buffs, matter of fact the reason I mentioned them in the first place is because most of them are so common they're practically the standard.
Heavy Armor? You do know most PvP-geared MagDKs already run at least 5/7 heavy, right? XD
Draconic power passive? Already on since you've most likely got Hardened Armor up, and if not, well hey, casting Dragon Blood GIVES IT TO YOU.
Blessed and Quick Recovery? 10 points into each nets you a 10% bonus to healing. Talk to some good PvPers and ask them if they don't have at least a few points into those just for the highly cost-effective bonus.
Major Mending? Literally the most powerful healing buff in the game, and DK is one of only 2 classes with access to it through a class skill, but hey, lets just gloss over that one. -_-

Oh hey, remember that skill Burning Embers? It's literally the most powerful self-heal in the entire game. Sure, there's some skill and timing required in it to balance that out, but when you can heal yourself for 30K, don't you think there should be something to balance it out? Probably not.

Oh, and there's Whip too... decently strong heal, and while it's healing you it's slamming your target for a pretty hefty damage spike.

Still not enough? Healing Ward. Healing Springs.

Ah, maybe you don't want to run Resto backbar... okay...
Defensive Posture's healing morph from the S+B that amost every MagDK runs?

But what about damage mitigation? Shields?
Well you've got Harness Magicka, oh and those two damage shields that come with your class skills, Hardened Armor and Igneous Shield, the latter giving you a massive healing bonus. Or that massive one you get from using the morph of Dragon Leap for basically half your health bar?
Oh, popping an ulti? Here, have a free tri-pot!

Honestly, the amount of heals and resource management options available to the DK class is insane. So insane, in fact, that when I see threads like this, full of people complaining that a DK skill (any DK skill tbh) is 'situational' or requires too much timing to pull off, I grind my teeth because what it sounds like to me is players demanding a 'brain-dead' button; A skill or ability that is so unanimously, universally powerful and useful, that there's no question of if/when you should use it, that it's simply YES. Just use it, and keep using it. Whenever possible, as much as possible.
You talk about DB 'only being useful if you stack healing bonuses'... imagine if it healed a 27K health character for 8-10K (which is what people seem to be wanting, if not more) and then you stack the buffs on it. "Oh, did you put me down to 25% Health? Lemme just press one button and pop back up to full." Hello again immortal DKs.

The proof of the 'brain-dead button' is in this very thread... has anyone posted a single thing for theorycrafting? A unique build with high max resources and deliberately low regen stats where you intentionally blow most of your mag in an opening burst then use alternate means like battle-roar ults, mag/tri-pots, Resto heavy attacks, Minor Magickasteal, etc to juggle your mag in the bottom half of your bar so you constantly have big heals available to you?
Anything like that? Even a single post about how it could work rather than why it "can't"?
Has anyone realized that 6-8K heals, if they even are that small, are much more effective when you're not firing them off when you're in the execute range?
No, no one has said a thing about it, just complained that DB isn't an easy-mode heal.

Is it perfect? Maybe not, but the original point of my first post remains: It's not nearly as broken or useless as people keep insisting, and that's what irritated me in the first place.

NightbladeMechanics

CarlosO wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Quantum, my only complaint is the following

analise should be analyze

Regardless, agree with everything.

RIP English

It's overrated.

As for your post, agreed on all accounts.

Quantum_V

LinearParadox wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

LinearParadox wrote: »

So here's something that really grinds my gears every time I read one of these threads about Dragon Blood... you're always off-target by a wide margin. In your (I'm guessing) quest to communicate 'just how bad' Dragon Blood is, you leave out so much in your math...

OP's math is wrong, but it's in a vaccum, a really terrible, unrealistic one...
-Draconic power passive (12%)
-Heavy armor (8%)
-Blessed CP (variable but easily 5% or more)
-Quick Recovery (variable but easily 5% or more)
-Major Mending (30%)
Vitality Pots (30%)
All powerful %healing bonuses, easily acessable to the DK.

Then there's fringe bonuses such as, but not limited to...
-Argonial racial passives (+5% taken, +5% done)
-Malubeth (30%)

Oh, and it can CRIT. And those crits are amplified by the Elfborn CP star which can even further multiply. +50% crit BASE with another variable % stacked on top of that from CP modifying the critical values.

It's not hard as a DK to get EASILY +50-75% Healing above tooltip values, and even more if you push it. Crits can spike that, cumulatively with other bonuses, to over 100% bonuses. So please, stop these absurd vaccum mathematics, especially if you ever want to be taken seriously.
You want to argue values, go ahead, but argue the REAL values.

Great you just proved how bad dragon blood is. You just said dragon blood can be decent if u take prety much every available healing bonus in the game. Not everyone want to run heavy armor, malu, cp to blessed and quick recovery, vitality pots and argonian. The fact that dragon blood need those buffs to be decent is a proof of how bad it is. I find it funny tho how u talk about crit and heavy armor considering that u are losing crit when u put on heavy armor. The only one who is off target here its you. And if u really want to talk about "REAL" values go and put breath of life and vigor under those buffs and then come here to tell people how wrong they are.

And you just proved you missed basically all of what I was saying. Great.

There are few-to-no sacrifices made to receive most of those healing buffs, matter of fact the reason I mentioned them in the first place is because most of them are so common they're practically the standard.
Heavy Armor? You do know most PvP-geared MagDKs already run at least 5/7 heavy, right? XD
Draconic power passive? Already on since you've most likely got Hardened Armor up, and if not, well hey, casting Dragon Blood GIVES IT TO YOU.
Blessed and Quick Recovery? 10 points into each nets you a 10% bonus to healing. Talk to some good PvPers and ask them if they don't have at least a few points into those just for the highly cost-effective bonus.
Major Mending? Literally the most powerful healing buff in the game, and DK is one of only 2 classes with access to it through a class skill, but hey, lets just gloss over that one. -_-

Oh hey, remember that skill Burning Embers? It's literally the most powerful self-heal in the entire game. Sure, there's some skill and timing required in it to balance that out, but when you can heal yourself for 30K, don't you think there should be something to balance it out? Probably not.

Oh, and there's Whip too... decently strong heal, and while it's healing you it's slamming your target for a pretty hefty damage spike.

Still not enough? Healing Ward. Healing Springs.

Ah, maybe you don't want to run Resto backbar... okay...
Defensive Posture's healing morph from the S+B that amost every MagDK runs?

But what about damage mitigation? Shields?
Well you've got Harness Magicka, oh and those two damage shields that come with your class skills, Hardened Armor and Igneous Shield, the latter giving you a massive healing bonus. Or that massive one you get from using the morph of Dragon Leap for basically half your health bar?
Oh, popping an ulti? Here, have a free tri-pot!

Honestly, the amount of heals and resource management options available to the DK class is insane. So insane, in fact, that when I see threads like this, full of people complaining that a DK skill (any DK skill tbh) is 'situational' or requires too much timing to pull off, I grind my teeth because what it sounds like to me is players demanding a 'brain-dead' button; A skill or ability that is so unanimously, universally powerful and useful, that there's no question of if/when you should use it, that it's simply YES. Just use it, and keep using it. Whenever possible, as much as possible.
You talk about DB 'only being useful if you stack healing bonuses'... imagine if it healed a 27K health character for 8-10K (which is what people seem to be wanting, if not more) and then you stack the buffs on it. "Oh, did you put me down to 25% Health? Lemme just press one button and pop back up to full." Hello again immortal DKs.

The proof of the 'brain-dead button' is in this very thread... has anyone posted a single thing for theorycrafting? A unique build with high max resources and deliberately low regen stats where you intentionally blow most of your mag in an opening burst then use alternate means like battle-roar ults, mag/tri-pots, Resto heavy attacks, Minor Magickasteal, etc to juggle your mag in the bottom half of your bar so you constantly have big heals available to you?
Anything like that? Even a single post about how it could work rather than why it "can't"?
Has anyone realized that 6-8K heals, if they even are that small, are much more effective when you're not firing them off when you're in the execute range?
No, no one has said a thing about it, just complained that DB isn't an easy-mode heal.

Is it perfect? Maybe not, but the original point of my first post remains: It's not nearly as broken or useless as people keep insisting, and that's what irritated me in the first place.

This post is kind of long, but lets get into it, I'll try to make it quick:

About all the buffs you're talking about (which I run points in blessed, quick recovery, Earthen Heart passives etc...) I get a 48% DB instead of 33%, that's all buffed up. Feel free to do the math with it, trust me, for SOLO PVP there's situations when Vigor Ticks heal more than DB itself, anyways, no matter how many buffs you give mDK, if the base heal is bad...

Don't come in using arguments about harness magicka and other shields, we're talking about THE MAGICKA DRAGON KNIGHT, Harness is a skill every class can use, that's not a mDK shield, when every class in the game can have it (sorcs, templars, nbs...). I'm not even gonna get in the dragon leap idea you gave (in it's current state, it will change for PTS thanks god), telling us to get rid of our only source of burst (which is meteor) to get a ulti that's not even magicka... We're good without gap closers, reliable heals, mobility aspects, and executes, we don't need to get rid of our only source of burst too.

Our complain here, is not that we don't have an easy mode heal, most magicka DKs here will agree with me that even with 'an easy mode heal' mDKs are not that easy to play, again, no gap closers, executes and underwhelming damage a lot of times (specially in current state of the game).


Finally, have you ever played mDK solo pvp? If so, for how long? Do you currently main one? What are your insights on it.

Bashev

This is how the skill should work:
When 50% of my health is missing when i cast the skill, it should heal for 0.5*(max magicka)*0.33. This way it will scale of magicka but it will be useful when I am on low health and full magicka. With this example if I have 40k magicka and if I have 50% of my health it should heal me for 40000*0.5*0.33 = 6600 health.

Sugaroverdose

Bashev wrote: »

This is how the skill should work:
When 50% of my health is missing when i cast the skill, it should heal for 0.5*(max magicka)*0.33. This way it will scale of magicka but it will be useful when I am on low health and full magicka. With this example if I have 40k magicka and if I have 50% of my health it should heal me for 40000*0.5*0.33 = 6600 health.

So whatever your health pool is, you get plain 6.6k heal? Also, you forget to apply battle spirit, so your heal will be 3.3k in pvp

Effect can scale with max magicka with formula like that:
Heals 33% of lost health also difference between stamina and magicka pool considers as lost health:

HA mDK:
30k health
40k magicka
20k stamina

50% health lost:
(30*0,5+(40-20))*0,33 = 11,55k in pve 5,775k in cyro
base heal:
(40-20)*0.33 = 6,6k in pve 3,3k in cyro

LA mDK:
24k health
42k magicka
14k stamina

50% health lost:
(24*0.5+(42-14))*0.33 = 13,2k in pve 6,6k in cyro
base heal:
(42-14)*0.33 = 9,24k in pve 4,62k in cyro

Risk-reward as it is.
There's hell a lot of ways to make CDB better for magicka without buffing stamina, but zos does not want to invest even 10 minutes to think about it.

Bashev

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

This is how the skill should work:
When 50% of my health is missing when i cast the skill, it should heal for 0.5*(max magicka)*0.33. This way it will scale of magicka but it will be useful when I am on low health and full magicka. With this example if I have 40k magicka and if I have 50% of my health it should heal me for 40000*0.5*0.33 = 6600 health.

So whatever your health pool is, you get plain 6.6k heal? Also, you forget to apply battle spirit, so your heal will be 3.3k in pvp

Effect can scale with max magicka with formula like that:
Heals 33% of lost health also difference between stamina and magicka pool considers as lost health:

30k health
40k magicka
20k stamina
50% health lost

(30*0,5+(40-20))*0,33 = 11,55k in pve 5,775k in cyro
base heal = (40-20)*0.33 = 6,6k in pve 3,3k in cyro

24k health
42k magicka
14k stamina
50% health lost
(24*0.5+(42-14))*0.33 = 13,2k in pve 6,6k in cyro
base heal (42-14)*0.33 = 9,24k in pve 4,62k in cyro

Risk-reward as it is.
There's hell a lot of ways to make CDB better for magicka without buffing stamina, but zos does not want to invest even 10 minutes to think about it.

Nope. You didnt understand my proposal.
The heal is based on the lost percentage health. But it is calculated based on your magicka. If you have 20% health so 80% is missing then if you have 40k magicka the heal should be 0.8*40000*0.33 = 10560.
Is it clear now?

Sugaroverdose

Bashev wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

This is how the skill should work:
When 50% of my health is missing when i cast the skill, it should heal for 0.5*(max magicka)*0.33. This way it will scale of magicka but it will be useful when I am on low health and full magicka. With this example if I have 40k magicka and if I have 50% of my health it should heal me for 40000*0.5*0.33 = 6600 health.

So whatever your health pool is, you get plain 6.6k heal? Also, you forget to apply battle spirit, so your heal will be 3.3k in pvp

Effect can scale with max magicka with formula like that:
Heals 33% of lost health also difference between stamina and magicka pool considers as lost health:

30k health
40k magicka
20k stamina
50% health lost

(30*0,5+(40-20))*0,33 = 11,55k in pve 5,775k in cyro
base heal = (40-20)*0.33 = 6,6k in pve 3,3k in cyro

24k health
42k magicka
14k stamina
50% health lost
(24*0.5+(42-14))*0.33 = 13,2k in pve 6,6k in cyro
base heal (42-14)*0.33 = 9,24k in pve 4,62k in cyro

Risk-reward as it is.
There's hell a lot of ways to make CDB better for magicka without buffing stamina, but zos does not want to invest even 10 minutes to think about it.

Nope. You didnt understand my proposal.
The heal is based on the lost percentage health. But it is calculated based on your magicka. If you have 20% health so 80% is missing then if you have 40k magicka the heal should be 0.8*40000*0.33 = 10560.
Is it clear now?

Actually, you repeated what you said: if i have 30k health i get same heal as 15k health toon

Bashev

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

This is how the skill should work:
When 50% of my health is missing when i cast the skill, it should heal for 0.5*(max magicka)*0.33. This way it will scale of magicka but it will be useful when I am on low health and full magicka. With this example if I have 40k magicka and if I have 50% of my health it should heal me for 40000*0.5*0.33 = 6600 health.

So whatever your health pool is, you get plain 6.6k heal? Also, you forget to apply battle spirit, so your heal will be 3.3k in pvp

Effect can scale with max magicka with formula like that:
Heals 33% of lost health also difference between stamina and magicka pool considers as lost health:

30k health
40k magicka
20k stamina
50% health lost

(30*0,5+(40-20))*0,33 = 11,55k in pve 5,775k in cyro
base heal = (40-20)*0.33 = 6,6k in pve 3,3k in cyro

24k health
42k magicka
14k stamina
50% health lost
(24*0.5+(42-14))*0.33 = 13,2k in pve 6,6k in cyro
base heal (42-14)*0.33 = 9,24k in pve 4,62k in cyro

Risk-reward as it is.
There's hell a lot of ways to make CDB better for magicka without buffing stamina, but zos does not want to invest even 10 minutes to think about it.

Nope. You didnt understand my proposal.
The heal is based on the lost percentage health. But it is calculated based on your magicka. If you have 20% health so 80% is missing then if you have 40k magicka the heal should be 0.8*40000*0.33 = 10560.
Is it clear now?

Actually, you repeated what you said: if i have 30k health i get same heal as 15k health toon

In this case yep. I thought you think that the heal is fixed 6600. I dont think that this is a problem.

Sugaroverdose

Bashev wrote: »

In this case yep. I thought you think that the heal is fixed 6600. I dont think that this is a problem.

This is a problem cause with bigger health numbers you not only can handle more damage, but also your execute range becomes bigger

Bashev

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

In this case yep. I thought you think that the heal is fixed 6600. I dont think that this is a problem.

This is a problem cause with bigger health numbers you not only can handle more damage, but also your execute range becomes bigger

But with bigger health numbers you have less magicka, smaller heal.

Sugaroverdose

Bashev wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

In this case yep. I thought you think that the heal is fixed 6600. I dont think that this is a problem.

This is a problem cause with bigger health numbers you not only can handle more damage, but also your execute range becomes bigger

But with bigger health numbers you have less magicka, smaller heal.

Tell it to magplars or any stambuild they'll laugh.
Also ability looses it's identity and becomes "something"

Anyway, you still don't apply battle spirit 50% reduction, with 50% health lost your formula will heal for 3.3k, with 80% lost it will heal for 5k

Bashev

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

In this case yep. I thought you think that the heal is fixed 6600. I dont think that this is a problem.

This is a problem cause with bigger health numbers you not only can handle more damage, but also your execute range becomes bigger

But with bigger health numbers you have less magicka, smaller heal.

Tell it to magplars or any stambuild they'll laugh.
Also ability looses it's identity and becomes "something"

Anyway, you still don't apply battle spirit 50% reduction, with 50% health lost your formula will heal for 3.3k, with 80% lost it will heal for 5k

But if you add the healing buffs, and the crit it can be pretty good. 3.3 *1.10*1.05*1.25*1.12 = 5336 without crit at 50% health. If it crit it will be around 8k heal. It will be way better than what we have on live and what we have on PTS.

Sugaroverdose

Bashev wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

In this case yep. I thought you think that the heal is fixed 6600. I dont think that this is a problem.

This is a problem cause with bigger health numbers you not only can handle more damage, but also your execute range becomes bigger

But with bigger health numbers you have less magicka, smaller heal.

Tell it to magplars or any stambuild they'll laugh.
Also ability looses it's identity and becomes "something"

Anyway, you still don't apply battle spirit 50% reduction, with 50% health lost your formula will heal for 3.3k, with 80% lost it will heal for 5k

But if you add the healing buffs, and the crit it can be pretty good. 3.3 *1.10*1.05*1.25*1.12 = 5336 without crit at 50% health. If it crit it will be around 8k heal. It will be way better than what we have on live and what we have on PTS.

Only if you run zero critresist or buff critrate+critdamage, for my build it's actually will heal almost the same way as GDB can on PTS.
But your idea still better then current CDB.

Bashev

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

In this case yep. I thought you think that the heal is fixed 6600. I dont think that this is a problem.

This is a problem cause with bigger health numbers you not only can handle more damage, but also your execute range becomes bigger

But with bigger health numbers you have less magicka, smaller heal.

Tell it to magplars or any stambuild they'll laugh.
Also ability looses it's identity and becomes "something"

Anyway, you still don't apply battle spirit 50% reduction, with 50% health lost your formula will heal for 3.3k, with 80% lost it will heal for 5k

But if you add the healing buffs, and the crit it can be pretty good. 3.3 *1.10*1.05*1.25*1.12 = 5336 without crit at 50% health. If it crit it will be around 8k heal. It will be way better than what we have on live and what we have on PTS.

Only if you run zero critresist or buff critrate+critdamage, for my build it's actually will heal almost the same way as GDB can on PTS.
But your idea still better then current CDB.

If you have the same amount of magicka and health it will be the same but still CDB gives you 8% more healing.