@leepalmer95 I gotta say this.

Before it got buffed I posted 'builds' 'threads' and general 'ideas' about combining conversion with ward as a great means of survival.

The response was: "cast time is too long to actually survive" "The return is so small you won't survive" "if you're gonna spend so much time and effort why not just be a temp?"

Where was your post saying "it's balanced!" "That's a great idea!" or "if you buff this, it's gonna be OP for stamina sorcs"

Or anything remotely close? I have a feeling, just like everyone else you viewed conversion/deal as a joke. I bet you even tried it and hated it.

So where were you then? What makes you feel that deal just won't become a joke once again?

starkerealm wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Go away with your PVP nerfs.

That won't effect pve if you actually read the thread.

Also go away with your pve nerfs, i liked my regen while blocking but zos removed it because tanking was too easy in pve and that killed mag dk off for a year.

Lee, it's become incredibly apparent you don't understand PvE at all. On a fundamental level. You don't know what will and won't affect PvE, because you have no idea what PvE is or how it works.

You're aware that PvE exists, out there somewhere. But you've never participated in it.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

'Mag sorc tank'...

Yeah, those are a thing. I realize it's not something you want to play, but that's never stopped other people. Just like some people choose to play Argonians. No one knows what's wrong with them, but they keep on truckin' and shedding skin all over my couch.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

The only pve content that requires a tank is vet trials and Vet dsa

*snorts*

While it's true that some of the absolute top tier players can solo endgame content... that's not normal. It's like assuming that every swimmer is on par with Olympic athletes.

But you can 4 dps them even in pug groups now days.

Or even if not 4 dps, 3 dps and a healer.

If you've got players who know what they're doing and have a solid rotation, that's true. If you have solid players who know what they're doing and have a coherant rotation, you're not going to be finding them three others as randos in the autogrouping tool.

I've done everything in pve apart from vet maw... because i'm too lazy to get a perfect character up for it.

Pve isn't hard, why will 1k less stamina on cast kill of dark deal for pve? Why will the heal nerf destroy it when vigors will healing for like 5k per tick in pve which crit surge carrying the rest of heals needed. The boss won't bash you for the channel snare + magicka on cast.

Is what so hard to understand.

You can easily 4 man pug the majority of dungeons in the game very easily. The only one's i'd say were hard to 4 man dps pug would be the hist ones.

Even WGT and such is easy enough now. I've done it before with randoms with 100-300 cp. Too slightly longer but it wasn't that hard.

Betheny wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

People like you are one of the reason why the game is in the state it is in now.

Really?

I would say it's people like you who are responsible - constantly complaining because someone bettered you and has different skills to you so BLAM! you jump onto the forums and start drama queening up a thread, going on and on literally solo flying for what...ten pages now...? causing the devs to kneekerk a nerf that affects PVE players.

Go away into the PVP forum where you can make as much noise from crying as you like, without having to put up with the PVE voices of reason telling you the skills are fine in PVE.

The pve voices of reasons lol.

Nah i mean people like you who fail to actually discuss issues and jump in on threads they can't add anything too.

I understand that as a low end pve'er you like the game being stupidly easy and feel the need to try and keep it that way by jumping into all balanced threads asked for by pvp'ers.

But it'll be ok this nerf won't affect pvp, you can leave now and go back into your safety net. The game won't get harder (it won't get easier but it's not possible)

Also if you actually read a bit of the thread which of course you haven't you'd know i've put a lot of time into a stam sorc i'm not making this because it killed me it's because going through the classes this aspect is obviously over the top strong to me.

@starkerealm Instead actually discussing it or answering back properly your going to answer with 'You don't pve'?

Ok then why don't you explain me to exactly how my changes would kill off dark deal for pve? How will it destroy those sorc tanks or dps?

Betheny wrote: »

This thread needs to be moved to the PVP forums.

No, it's of vital importance to PvE sorcs. Which isn't why it was posted here, but anyway.

The problem is simply that you've got a PvPer who doesn't understand PvE in the slightest, saying they understand more about tank builds than, you know, people who actually play tanks.

starkerealm wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

This thread needs to be moved to the PVP forums.

No, it's of vital importance to PvE sorcs. Which isn't why it was posted here, but anyway.

The problem is simply that you've got a PvPer who doesn't understand PvE in the slightest, saying they understand more about tank builds than, you know, people who actually play tanks.

Explain to me why it's vitally important. In what way?

Explain to me why my changes would kill it for pve?

Come on your stalling.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

@starkerealm Instead actually discussing it or answering back properly your going to answer with 'You don't pve'?

Ok then why don't you explain me to exactly how my changes would kill off dark deal for pve? How will it destroy those sorc tanks or dps?

Honestly, Lee, what would be the point of anyone arguing with you? Your standard pattern is to immediately discard anything you don't agree with from other players or just to accuse them of not knowing what they're talking about because you know better and therefore they don't know the game as well as you because you are the uber master that can't figure out how to bash someone out of Dark Deal.

Honestly, man. You're trying to bait @starkerealm into a discussion so that you can feel good about yourself when the time comes to scream "NO, NO, YOU'RE WRONG!" while not offering up any proof to the contrary.

It's all about what agrees with your worldview and dismissing anyone who disagrees. Then you cry about forum warriors and one class wonders and insult everyone who offers an opinion that contradicts yours. Then you insist that people are just posting in this thread because they're after snark points (like forum board badges and stars matter? What? Who cares? I suppose they must to you since you're the only one who cares).

You demand constructive discussion, but what's the point when you're not offering any?

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Did it ever dawn on you that maybe some Magicka Sorcerers use Dark Deal too? It's not exactly a forgiving skill for the next aisle down as it is, considering being bashed mid-cast means being obligated to break free and using up even more precious stamina, if you have any left by that point. For instance:

Enemy Attacks > Dodge Roll > Dark Deal > Bashed > Break Free > Rooted

Guess what? If you don't have Mist Form or Bolt Escape, you're a sitting duck. Alleged Godmode countered.

Fun Factoid: The cast is cancelled if the player falls and lands from such a height that causes them to roll or do a superhero landing before the cast is complete. It's super nifty when trying to Dark Deal on hilly or rocky terrain!

Yep - what you say is logical.

The OP simply can't really understand any logic besides what he fabricated in his own mind or what he carries on from others right now.

In fact, most of the forum PvP community these days has gone braindead unfortunateIy. Cyrodiil has been a mess for so long they've forgotten what most of the real issues are

So a magicka sorc uses dark deal to get stamina? Not sure why... but ok.

First mistake is roll dodging..

Second is not having streak...

And what your bashes you break free and can continue to spam dark deal all you want? Infact on a mag sorc you get free cc immunity and then can streak 2 times easy and then get a few risk free casts in.

I just didn't think i need to spell out obvious things?

Because, as I said before in the other thread you made, running out of stamina is a death sentence.

Roll dodging is sometimes necessary, and if you're facing a wall or any other obstacle when you get rooted, Streak becomes completely useless.

You can never be immune to bashes or interrupts unless you completely avoid their impact. I have Ball of Lightning for the sole purpose of being able to safely use my cast time abilities. The only immunity you get is to the drunken wobble from being bashed. It's why popping an immovable potion before rezzing doesn't help you against a bash or Crushing Shock.

And 2 Streaks to get away is pointless if you're going against someone spamming gap closers and knows to bash skills like Dark Deal (see: Toppling Charge, Crit Rush, Ambush, Chains, Shielded Assault).

Dark Deal is strong, but it is in no way something that can be used thoughtlessly by anybody slotting it. There are already consequences for casting it without proper preparation, especially if it's a last-resort option. Mess it up at that point and you're dead.

Well if stamina is so important why are you risking it using dark deal? Why?

Mag sorc don't need dark deal ffs. If you actually manage your stamina you don't need dark deal in pvp on a mag sorc at all.

This isn't about a mag sorc, this is about stam sorc's.

Your can't talk about one without talking about the other. Your proposals are based on one playstyle of one spec in one gamemode, not the entire picture that is "Sorcerer" in the entire game. I use Dark Deal when tanking in PvE too, and no, the mobs don't bash, but when you have to time the cast between possible 1-shots, dodge rolls, and everything else, it had damn well better be worth the effort I put forth.

And again how will my proposals affect you?

You thinking getting 4k back instead of 5k stamina isn't worth it?

Would you like me to explain how irrelevant the rest of the balances are to pve tanks?

That 1k can mean the difference between breaking free and staying knocked down in PvP. So no, 4k is definitely not worth it if it means I have to double cast it to get anything worthwhile back.

lol fml the 1k is such a difference. Not it isn't. We both know you'd still cast it so why lie?

Now your just being fussy. The fact is it will hardly effect you at all. You won't even notice the difference and as a tank you should never get yourself that low to the point where that 1k makes a difference.

The truth is my balance request for a skill for pvp won't effect you much in pve at all.

But because it's a request for pvp you feel the need to to keep pushing about the pve because 'all pvp'ers do is moan and get pve nerfed'.

Now it's very obvious it won't effect pve anything noticeable anyway. So if your done nitpicking can the discussion get back on track to what it was intended for? The skill's strength in pvp, if you have nothing to add to the pvp discussion move on.

PvP speaking, it does its job by itself, but is made even more impressive in conjunction with other things. The same can be said about everything else. If anything, look at what brings it into this so-called "overpowered" state, and make adjustments there, rather than straight nerfing the skill.

Not all builds are built the same, so you have no place to tell anybody how or when they should be using Dark Deal, or any ability for that matter.

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

@starkerealm Instead actually discussing it or answering back properly your going to answer with 'You don't pve'?

Ok then why don't you explain me to exactly how my changes would kill off dark deal for pve? How will it destroy those sorc tanks or dps?

Honestly, Lee, what would be the point of anyone arguing with you? Your standard pattern is to immediately discard anything you don't agree with from other players or just to accuse them of not knowing what they're talking about because you know better and therefore they don't know the game as well as you because you are the uber master that can't figure out how to bash someone out of Dark Deal.

Honestly, man. You're trying to bait @starkerealm into a discussion so that you can feel good about yourself when the time comes to scream "NO, NO, YOU'RE WRONG!" while not offering up any proof to the contrary.

It's all about what agrees with your worldview and dismissing anyone who disagrees. Then you cry about forum warriors and one class wonders and insult everyone who offers an opinion that contradicts yours. Then you insist that people are just posting in this thread because they're after snark points (like forum board badges and stars matter? What? Who cares? I suppose they must to you since you're the only one who cares).

You demand constructive discussion, but what's the point when you're not offering any?

The point is i'm making points are @starkerealm Just isn't responding to them.

I made a point
I give reasons for my point
I added ways to fix my point, i added how they won't effect pve but will help pvp.

And all i got back is 'you don't know anything about pve' or 'Don't nerf pve with your pvp'.

Wheres the feedback with numbers/ facts or reasons? Wheres the reading of my point. I literally answered the don't nerf pve when i stated how it would barely effect pve.

I made a thread on a skill. The majority of feedback was useless and was just usless comments, pve'ers jumped in on a discussion about pvp.

What more do you wan't me to do? How am i mean't to respond if peoples answers aren't proper responses.

Dev wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

lol fml the 1k is such a difference. Not it isn't. We both know you'd still cast it so why lie?

Now your just being fussy. The fact is it will hardly effect you at all. You won't even notice the difference and as a tank you should never get yourself that low to the point where that 1k makes a difference.

The truth is my balance request for a skill for pvp won't effect you much in pve at all.

But because it's a request for pvp you feel the need to to keep pushing about the pve because 'all pvp'ers do is moan and get pve nerfed'.

Now it's very obvious it won't effect pve anything noticeable anyway. So if your done nitpicking can the discussion get back on track to what it was intended for? The skill's strength in pvp, if you have nothing to add to the pvp discussion move on.

1k has to have some worth if you feel it is so important to remove.
Considering the whole point in Min/Maxing is to well. max, this idea is counter productive.
Also considering that prior changes to abilities have not been confined to PVP, your request would impact more then pvp.
Those who use the ability are impacted, and it is very short sighted to dismiss everyone who doesn't PVP to just accept your proposal.
The reason people are against the idea is because we do not like it.
It does not need to cost more, risk to use, be interruptible, or any of that.

Personally i would prefer to have the cast time removed and the numbers restored is increased.
Why? Because more is better, i like buffs and i like my build as is.

But again you don't want changes because pve reasons. But are you even reading the changes and how many of them will actually effect pve?

Magicka cost on cast and not completion won't effect you.
Snare won't effect you

etc...

But again you dismiss all of these because despite it not effecting you at all you don;t want anything to change. It's easy enough but you want it even easier. The changes will barely effect you at all. It's short sighted to dismiss all suggested change because 'just no'?

And people wonder why i dismiss some comments. Ones like this which are just biased and narrow minded to actual balance.

it seems like you not even saying no because it'll effect you your saying no because it'll balance pvp better.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

@starkerealm Instead actually discussing it or answering back properly your going to answer with 'You don't pve'?

Ok then why don't you explain me to exactly how my changes would kill off dark deal for pve? How will it destroy those sorc tanks or dps?

Honestly, Lee, what would be the point of anyone arguing with you? Your standard pattern is to immediately discard anything you don't agree with from other players or just to accuse them of not knowing what they're talking about because you know better and therefore they don't know the game as well as you because you are the uber master that can't figure out how to bash someone out of Dark Deal.

Honestly, man. You're trying to bait @starkerealm into a discussion so that you can feel good about yourself when the time comes to scream "NO, NO, YOU'RE WRONG!" while not offering up any proof to the contrary.

It's all about what agrees with your worldview and dismissing anyone who disagrees. Then you cry about forum warriors and one class wonders and insult everyone who offers an opinion that contradicts yours. Then you insist that people are just posting in this thread because they're after snark points (like forum board badges and stars matter? What? Who cares? I suppose they must to you since you're the only one who cares).

You demand constructive discussion, but what's the point when you're not offering any?

The point is i'm making points are @starkerealm Just isn't responding to them.

I made a point
I give reasons for my point
I added ways to fix my point, i added how they won't effect pve but will help pvp.

And all i got back is 'you don't know anything about pve' or 'Don't nerf pve with your pvp'.

Wheres the feedback with numbers/ facts or reasons? Wheres the reading of my point. I literally answered the don't nerf pve when i stated how it would barely effect pve.

I made a thread on a skill. The majority of feedback was useless and was just usless comments, pve'ers jumped in on a discussion about pvp.

What more do you wan't me to do? How am i mean't to respond if peoples answers aren't proper responses.

You insult. You re-insult. You continue to insult.

You make statements. You don't make arguments. The sum of your argument is, "WRONG!"

This is why people pop their popcorn to watch your threads, because you're amusing in that sad kind of way. Now, there's a very easy way to avoid having to deal with all of this. If you made your comments in the PvP thread, rather than the General Forums, you would in fact not deal with any PvE players. But you made your thread here, either hoping for developer response or because you wanted more comments in the discussion, or because you *gasp* want to farm those precious, precious stars.

If the game is so super duper easy as you have insisted then why are you having problems?

Using your logic, if you had the skill, you could bash those players out of Dark Deal.

This isn't a thread about skill. You're not asking for skill. You're angry at someone else using their skills in a way that you don't seem to understand. So, this isn't about players being good or skilled. It's a thread about a nerf. It's a thread begging for a nerf.

By your own logic, if you were skilled enough you could overcome this. You would not be complaining about broken mechanics. You wouldn't need dev intervention.

Don't sit here demanding other players Git Gud while dismissing their opinions when you're sitting here demanding game change mechanics.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Explain to me why it's vitally important. In what way?

Explain to me why my changes would kill it for pve?

Come on your stalling.

It has importance because it is a recovery ability.

1. When fighting content with new or less geared players, the fights can have sustain issues. In those cases, having to rely on someone else for health or stamina is a recipe for disaster. IE: if i need a clutch heal and the healer is busy with something else, it helps.
2. When soloing vet dungeons, there is no one else to rely on, so these abilities are very helpful.
3. Your changes lower the effectiveness, and in turn would make it less enjoyable.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Explain to me why it's vitally important. In what way?

God, I can't believe I have to explain this to you.

Tanks in ESO rely on having self heals. Ideally click heals. You're familiar with the term? Yes? No. Okay, so a click heal is an ability where you use it and it heals you. You understand the idea of being healed, right? Yeah, no, nevermind.

Anyway, for sorcerors, their click heal is.. wait for it... Dark Deal.

The reason it's Dark Deal and not, say, Dark Conversion is because of something called Stamina.

Stamina is the green bar on your screen. You use it for things like blocking, or breaking free of CC. Also bashing players using dark deal carelessly, by the way. You could try that sometime. This makes it vitally important for tanks. In fact, this is the only natural resource return Sorcerers have for their Stamina. It's a critical skill for making sorc tanks functional. In fact, before it was brought into it's current state, the entire idea of a sorceror tank was considered iffy in the extreme.

The difference between four thousand and five thousand is 20%. Though, I think in simple terms we can simply call that, "a lot."

And no, I haven't been stalling. I'm playing the game, and then responding to the board on loading screens. You know, actually playing the game, instead of simply coming on the forums and complaining about systems that I don't understand, and insisting that tanks get taken out at the knees, because my ego can't handle the idea that there's a player out there who I can't burn down without taking any thought or care to the situation.

Oh so you mean a click heal like say? Vigor which every other tank uses on it's own just fine?

No, Dark Deal is different from Vigor in a single, very important way. It costs Magicka instead of Stamina.

Magicka, as you will someday learn is the blue bar. And this is different from Stamina. You know, the green bar.

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

ObsidianMichi wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

@starkerealm Instead actually discussing it or answering back properly your going to answer with 'You don't pve'?

Ok then why don't you explain me to exactly how my changes would kill off dark deal for pve? How will it destroy those sorc tanks or dps?

Honestly, Lee, what would be the point of anyone arguing with you? Your standard pattern is to immediately discard anything you don't agree with from other players or just to accuse them of not knowing what they're talking about because you know better and therefore they don't know the game as well as you because you are the uber master that can't figure out how to bash someone out of Dark Deal.

Honestly, man. You're trying to bait @starkerealm into a discussion so that you can feel good about yourself when the time comes to scream "NO, NO, YOU'RE WRONG!" while not offering up any proof to the contrary.

It's all about what agrees with your worldview and dismissing anyone who disagrees. Then you cry about forum warriors and one class wonders and insult everyone who offers an opinion that contradicts yours. Then you insist that people are just posting in this thread because they're after snark points (like forum board badges and stars matter? What? Who cares? I suppose they must to you since you're the only one who cares).

You demand constructive discussion, but what's the point when you're not offering any?

The point is i'm making points are @starkerealm Just isn't responding to them.

I made a point
I give reasons for my point
I added ways to fix my point, i added how they won't effect pve but will help pvp.

And all i got back is 'you don't know anything about pve' or 'Don't nerf pve with your pvp'.

Wheres the feedback with numbers/ facts or reasons? Wheres the reading of my point. I literally answered the don't nerf pve when i stated how it would barely effect pve.

I made a thread on a skill. The majority of feedback was useless and was just usless comments, pve'ers jumped in on a discussion about pvp.

What more do you wan't me to do? How am i mean't to respond if peoples answers aren't proper responses.

You insult. You re-insult. You continue to insult.

You make statements. You don't make arguments. The sum of your argument is, "WRONG!"

This is why people pop their popcorn to watch your threads, because you're amusing in that sad kind of way. Now, there's a very easy way to avoid having to deal with all of this. If you made your comments in the PvP thread, rather than the General Forums, you would in fact not deal with any PvE players. But you made your thread here, either hoping for developer response or because you wanted more comments in the discussion, or because you *gasp* want to farm those precious, precious stars.

If the game is so super duper easy as you have insisted then why are you having problems?

Using your logic, if you had the skill, you could bash those players out of Dark Deal.

This isn't a thread about skill. You're not asking for skill. You're angry at someone else using their skills in a way that you don't seem to understand. So, this isn't about players being good or skilled. It's a thread about a nerf. It's a thread begging for a nerf.

By your own logic, if you were skilled enough you could overcome this. You would not be complaining about broken mechanics. You wouldn't need dev intervention.

Don't sit here demanding other players Git Gud while dismissing their opinions when you're sitting here demanding game change mechanics.

Sigh, i swear these forums... they drag out some people.

I said pve was easy, this is about a skill that allows a class to run any 5 heavy with 600 regen and have the best stamina sustain in the game. While in pvp...

By my own logic if i did bash them there is no repercussions for them, which you'd know if you read the op..? There is no risk when your bashed you break free and carry on.

This thread is about balance to an over performing skill and it was a thread about that before the pve hero's appeared. There was actual discussion about this skill in pvp by pvp players who have played with and against it. Ofc people can't help but randomly spam these threads.

It's a thread asking for a nerf, with reasons for the nerf, suggestion for the nerf and explanation about why these changes are suggested, it's also stated how these changed won't effect pve.

What more do you want? A 30 page essay with dissertation level sources cited?

Then you have people like @starkerealm who starts out ok but then quickly turn to responses like 'you don't know about pve'.

You ask him to explain and he gives you some half assed answer which anyone who's played a tank knows is just wrong then quickly develops into a sarcastic paragraph about 'stamina' because he doesn't have an actual good point.

His first was you need a 1 click heal ignoring vigor and surge and classes the 1s delay of dark deal as a click heal when you need to drop block for it.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno

Can we close this thread please? I was actually productive earlier on but it seems to be no longer the case as all the pve' warriors have appeared, i'm not getting actual answers anymore, just sarcasm and exaggerated facts. They are just out of actual valid responses.