Vaoh wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

DD is most broken thing about stamsorc, it's ridiculously strong heal outperforms 4-6k damage per second easily, add hurricane + critical surge + vigor and stamsorc even in MA can be only nuked for full health or he'll outheal in matter of 2 seconds.
Sorc class defining ability is bolt escape.

Stam Sorc is not good in vMA because of Dark Deal lol. They are good because of Critical Surge aka perma-Vigor for PvE. Hurricane also provides high AoE DPS along with 10% movement speed and high mitigation. Stacked with Vicious Ophidian, they are ideal for vMA.

Dark Deal is nice, but not needed especially in really high score runs. Surge is the key.

Bolt Escape has been nerfed multiple times AND bugged out significantly in being "balanced". I don't want Dark Deal becoming weak amd buggy especially when none of the QQers are smart enough to wait for many things that bring up Dark Deal to be nerfed first.

I don't talk about PvE at all, if DD isn't needed for it, than cool it can be nerfed without touching 'please remove pvp cause i want to play sims' people

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

1. If you actually played sorc you'd know you don't run out of stamina...
2. It is true you just slap on heavy and dark deal and sustain forever... it is not situational its super easy to pull of with no penalty for being interrupted..
3. I don't zerg... all game mechanics and skill is pointless in zergs anyway that is based off numbers and the numbersof ults people drop at once and irrelevant
4. Surge doesn't take half your magicka... do you even stam sorc? Stop exaggerating numbers and facts for the benefit of your 'point'.
5. Your entire pew pew bow argument is actually just stupid, no one 'pew pews', again zerging is pointless. Your numbers and guesses are completely off. How will you have half stamina before you have another dark deal? What are you casting with your pew pew? Injection doesn't cost much...

All i got from this is you don't or have little idea how to play stam sorc, your a zerger, you exaggerate things and think melee is game over?

Really that is your argument?

Oh, that's right.. I forget you're that guy who will argue blindly with anyone without listening to a single thing they say.. So you don't play a certain aspect of the game, yet know with a certainty how that aspect works out - enough to tell someone who does play that way that they are wrong? or are you calling me a liar?

Crit surge = 4051 magicka.. How much magicka does the average stam toon carry? 9-10 k? That's pretty damn close to half

You cannot fill a cup that is already full.

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

In what aspect will this nerf pve? DD sorc's? They have enough sustain from VO, repentance, shards etc..

Stam sorc tanks can just get a few more shards and even then how will a channel snare, a heal nerf which they'll have healers for, the fact magicka will be taken on cast and not at the end and around 20-25% stamina return nerf kill them off? 3 of those won't matter to a tank while the other will hardly effect them.

Also the buff templars and dk have is called major mending and crit surge more than makes up for stam sorc's lack of it.

Again this is about a sustain skill being overly strong compared to the rest. Which it is? Where are all the open world builds with 600 regen and 100% in dmg? Apart from stam sorc? Other aspects of other classes aren't relevant, vitality pots aren't relevant. The main reason why stamina is strong is because of it's proc sets such as viper/veli/selene or tremor as soona s they are nerfed stamina will be dragged down back towards magicka. The only thing thats needs adjusting are a few stamina specific skills or abilities, Dark deal is one of these.

Yes i agree heavy helps towards this but the skill itself is fundamentally overly strong.

An avergae medium build can sustain just fine with 2k~ regen. 4000 stamina per cast is still very relevant. Plus the fact skills will be cheaper so the 4000 per cast won't get eaten as quickly.

2000 regen every 2s. If a stam sorc casts 2x dark deals in that time thats 8k extra stam they wouldn't of got. Then if you add the regen tick they would get 5x as much stamina back in that time for a total of 10k. It adds on very nicely.

It'll supplement sustain and not be all the sustain.

Try playing a templar, nb or dk in open world in just 600 regen like stam sorc, both templar and nb will have major sustain issues and stam dk may hold up a bit better but will still have them quickly enough.

@leepalmer95 This is the type of crowd agreeing with you -_- almost incoherent dialogue with no meaning

Not every Stam Sorc in PvE has 561CP, a perfect group, runs the exact same 13 gold items in perfect traits with Pots that the pros do and knows every fine detail of the content they are running.

Dark Deal is not needed in PvE when you are running content in the most ideal possible conditions. That is a terrible justification for it not being needed in PvE. Ideal conditions are almost never the case. It is an important skill which can very easily be made weak and should not be messed up because of PvP QQ.

Also you are again side stepping the real issue. No Stamina build should be able to sustain with absolutely zero investment into Stamina Regeneration. Currently, wearing Heavy Armor+Black Rose let's you do just that while you stack full damage and cost reduction (with that totaly balanced 50% heavy attack resource return aka 200+ CPs worth of a restore bonus). Any Stamina build can do it. Stam Sorc is just the more "noob-friendly" Stamina class in resource management thanks to Dark Deal atm. Yes it overperforms, but this is not due to the skill itself. It is caused by the broken flat resource return you can get which lets you neglect investment into actual Stamina Regeneration.

As soon as the Stamina Regeneration is relevant again, Dark Deal QQ will dissipate entirely. It's unfortunate that a thread like this gained so much traction when you could've created a productive thread on the actual glaring issues ruining Cyrodiil.

Gl with making a thread like that, look at this thread and all the 1 class meta forum warriors I've managed to bring out.

This was 1 skill, i'm not even asking for a nerf to make it useless either. I've given viable nerf's which won't kill the skill off. Yet so many people have commented, most don'y play stam sorc, some actually have no idea what their talking about, some just make things up.

There is only a few people who actually have a discussion with relevant and actual facts and numbers.

Gl trying this with all the numerous issues pvp has, most of which were from previous patches and ignored. 80% of the responses will be either l2p or one of those well thought out 'shall we all be naked and punch each other' comments.

None of which actually help the discussion.

Yes but is it better to push for a stupid nerf?

Do you honestly think a nerf would equal a 10% Stam return decrease or something else minor? It never does.

Nerfing Dark Deal (in ZOS terms) looks something like:
• You can no longer be interrupted when channelling this skill or its morphs
• Increased the cost of this skill and its morphs by 25%
• Reduced that Healh Return by 50% and Resource return by 40% from this skill and its morphs
• You take 15% increased damage and no longer regenerate Magicka when casting this skill or its morphs

A farcry from a minor change. This is a small change compared to what they've done to many skills/sets in the past as well.

Well maybe if the 1 class wonder forum warriors would just accept what they know is true maybe a lot of people could come to an agreement on small nerfs or balance changes.

Instead most balance thread are spammed with useless comments, insults, exaggeration, wrong facts, 1 word answers or sarcastic 1 liners.

If you cut out all of that out of this thread this thread would be 2-3 pages long because thats the only discussion that actually happened.

When you get a lot of experiences players say it's op, when people present fact it's op and offer fair balances. When you get stam sorc mains say it's op and yet you get mostly people who have no idea stat flaming and spamming threads then no wonder zos either don't listen or over nerf things.

The experienced Stam Sorc mains only mained it after it was buffed lol.

No one is a "true" Stam Sorc main except for a select few.

Also people don't seem to think through why Heavy Armor is so effective or how it indirectly provides *significant* synergy with Dark Deal.

How about this..... go run 5x Hunding's Rage, 3x Agility with all stamina recovery glyphs, 3x Lekis. Invest your CPs until you have an extra 20.1% Stamina Regen from them. Do what you want with everything else.

That type of build hasn't been good in a very long time due to imbalances. You simply have no need to create a build that invests into Stam Regen when you can take the much more effective and powerful route of cost reduction, flat bonuses, and Heavy Armor.

Tell me how helpful that Dark Deal is on this build. Is it as *OP* as you thought, or just a strong and useful skill now?

I already know the answer. ESO is a numbers game and the way this sustain works out this patch is extremely easy to understand,

If you understood it, you'd see why nerfing Dark Deal before a major balance change involving Heavy Armor, procs, and flat resouce restore sustain would be a disaster (or getting it nerfed at all with ZOS being the Devs in charge).

I would of thought using medium would make the resources from dark deal last longer because of the increased reduced cost.

Instead of using up the 5k~ stamina in 3 skills, it'll be used up in 4. So despite you casting it less frequently the actual sustain each dark deal will give will be worth more.

And yet this isn't a thread about magicka sorc.

Grats on using dark deal on a mag sorc. But it's not needed on a mag sorc.

This is about stam sorc and the fact 600 regen heavy builds are a thing because of it.

And yes dark deal is still a strong skill on a medium build. It's a strong skill without risks.

It needs a risk, it doesn't need a big heal and it needs a chance for it to be bashable.

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

This still going? All because you got skilled by one guy? And if you've played a high damage stam sorc you'd know they have no sustain at all, Redguard or not. Fact is if they were in medium armor this convo wouldn't be happening. You can't use DD indefinitely at all, 3 spams and all magika is gone. No magika for surge left (this takes half of it alone) and it takes more time to regen a whole 11k magika then it does to use the 15k stam you gain back.

Any magicka user with a staff should have shock on and applying pressure no stam sorc will ever get to use it anyway.

The issue really is...you got rekd it happens get over it, it really just needs a small snare applied for the 1s cast and the cost should be applied at the start not at the end...about right?

So you haven't read?

I didn't get rekt by anything , this is a balance thread. A lot of people agree it's OP i'm just the one made a thread first.

You should read things before you post instead of just jumping into them, like you did with the heal on dark deal? Was a bit of googling too hard for you to do before you dived right it with completely wrong numbers?

Surge is 4k magicka, average stam sorc uses tri food so they have 13k or 14k. It's not half your magicka and surge is every 33s...

You get around 3-4 casts for your magicka which is 15-20k.

You seem to feel a 600 regen heavy build is ok? Not just ok but the best stamina sustain class in open world by far?

So your throwing insults but are then agreeing with me? What? You dipped out of this discussion a while ago don't just come right back in with a snappy comment and not catch up on it.

Vaoh wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

DD is most broken thing about stamsorc, it's ridiculously strong heal outperforms 4-6k damage per second easily, add hurricane + critical surge + vigor and stamsorc even in MA can be only nuked for full health or he'll outheal in matter of 2 seconds.
Sorc class defining ability is bolt escape.

Stam Sorc is not good in vMA because of Dark Deal lol. They are good because of Critical Surge aka perma-Vigor for PvE. Hurricane also provides high AoE DPS along with 10% movement speed and high mitigation. Stacked with Vicious Ophidian, they are ideal for vMA.

Dark Deal is nice, but not needed especially in really high score runs. Surge is the key.

Bolt Escape has been nerfed multiple times AND bugged out significantly in being "balanced". I don't want Dark Deal becoming weak amd buggy especially when none of the QQers are smart enough to wait for many things that bring up Dark Deal to be nerfed first.

I don't talk about PvE at all, if DD isn't needed for it, than cool it can be nerfed without touching 'please remove pvp cause i want to play sims' people

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

1. If you actually played sorc you'd know you don't run out of stamina...
2. It is true you just slap on heavy and dark deal and sustain forever... it is not situational its super easy to pull of with no penalty for being interrupted..
3. I don't zerg... all game mechanics and skill is pointless in zergs anyway that is based off numbers and the numbersof ults people drop at once and irrelevant
4. Surge doesn't take half your magicka... do you even stam sorc? Stop exaggerating numbers and facts for the benefit of your 'point'.
5. Your entire pew pew bow argument is actually just stupid, no one 'pew pews', again zerging is pointless. Your numbers and guesses are completely off. How will you have half stamina before you have another dark deal? What are you casting with your pew pew? Injection doesn't cost much...

All i got from this is you don't or have little idea how to play stam sorc, your a zerger, you exaggerate things and think melee is game over?

Really that is your argument?

Oh, that's right.. I forget you're that guy who will argue blindly with anyone without listening to a single thing they say.. So you don't play a certain aspect of the game, yet know with a certainty how that aspect works out - enough to tell someone who does play that way that they are wrong? or are you calling me a liar?

Crit surge = 4051 magicka.. How much magicka does the average stam toon carry? 9-10 k? That's pretty damn close to half

You cannot fill a cup that is already full.

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

In what aspect will this nerf pve? DD sorc's? They have enough sustain from VO, repentance, shards etc..

Stam sorc tanks can just get a few more shards and even then how will a channel snare, a heal nerf which they'll have healers for, the fact magicka will be taken on cast and not at the end and around 20-25% stamina return nerf kill them off? 3 of those won't matter to a tank while the other will hardly effect them.

Also the buff templars and dk have is called major mending and crit surge more than makes up for stam sorc's lack of it.

Again this is about a sustain skill being overly strong compared to the rest. Which it is? Where are all the open world builds with 600 regen and 100% in dmg? Apart from stam sorc? Other aspects of other classes aren't relevant, vitality pots aren't relevant. The main reason why stamina is strong is because of it's proc sets such as viper/veli/selene or tremor as soona s they are nerfed stamina will be dragged down back towards magicka. The only thing thats needs adjusting are a few stamina specific skills or abilities, Dark deal is one of these.

Yes i agree heavy helps towards this but the skill itself is fundamentally overly strong.

An avergae medium build can sustain just fine with 2k~ regen. 4000 stamina per cast is still very relevant. Plus the fact skills will be cheaper so the 4000 per cast won't get eaten as quickly.

2000 regen every 2s. If a stam sorc casts 2x dark deals in that time thats 8k extra stam they wouldn't of got. Then if you add the regen tick they would get 5x as much stamina back in that time for a total of 10k. It adds on very nicely.

It'll supplement sustain and not be all the sustain.

Try playing a templar, nb or dk in open world in just 600 regen like stam sorc, both templar and nb will have major sustain issues and stam dk may hold up a bit better but will still have them quickly enough.

@leepalmer95 This is the type of crowd agreeing with you -_- almost incoherent dialogue with no meaning

Not every Stam Sorc in PvE has 561CP, a perfect group, runs the exact same 13 gold items in perfect traits with Pots that the pros do and knows every fine detail of the content they are running.

Dark Deal is not needed in PvE when you are running content in the most ideal possible conditions. That is a terrible justification for it not being needed in PvE. Ideal conditions are almost never the case. It is an important skill which can very easily be made weak and should not be messed up because of PvP QQ.

Also you are again side stepping the real issue. No Stamina build should be able to sustain with absolutely zero investment into Stamina Regeneration. Currently, wearing Heavy Armor+Black Rose let's you do just that while you stack full damage and cost reduction (with that totaly balanced 50% heavy attack resource return aka 200+ CPs worth of a restore bonus). Any Stamina build can do it. Stam Sorc is just the more "noob-friendly" Stamina class in resource management thanks to Dark Deal atm. Yes it overperforms, but this is not due to the skill itself. It is caused by the broken flat resource return you can get which lets you neglect investment into actual Stamina Regeneration.

As soon as the Stamina Regeneration is relevant again, Dark Deal QQ will dissipate entirely. It's unfortunate that a thread like this gained so much traction when you could've created a productive thread on the actual glaring issues ruining Cyrodiil.

Gl with making a thread like that, look at this thread and all the 1 class meta forum warriors I've managed to bring out.

This was 1 skill, i'm not even asking for a nerf to make it useless either. I've given viable nerf's which won't kill the skill off. Yet so many people have commented, most don'y play stam sorc, some actually have no idea what their talking about, some just make things up.

There is only a few people who actually have a discussion with relevant and actual facts and numbers.

Gl trying this with all the numerous issues pvp has, most of which were from previous patches and ignored. 80% of the responses will be either l2p or one of those well thought out 'shall we all be naked and punch each other' comments.

None of which actually help the discussion.

Yes but is it better to push for a stupid nerf?

Do you honestly think a nerf would equal a 10% Stam return decrease or something else minor? It never does.

Nerfing Dark Deal (in ZOS terms) looks something like:
• You can no longer be interrupted when channelling this skill or its morphs
• Increased the cost of this skill and its morphs by 25%
• Reduced that Healh Return by 50% and Resource return by 40% from this skill and its morphs
• You take 15% increased damage and no longer regenerate Magicka when casting this skill or its morphs

A farcry from a minor change. This is a small change compared to what they've done to many skills/sets in the past as well.

Well maybe if the 1 class wonder forum warriors would just accept what they know is true maybe a lot of people could come to an agreement on small nerfs or balance changes.

Instead most balance thread are spammed with useless comments, insults, exaggeration, wrong facts, 1 word answers or sarcastic 1 liners.

If you cut out all of that out of this thread this thread would be 2-3 pages long because thats the only discussion that actually happened.

When you get a lot of experiences players say it's op, when people present fact it's op and offer fair balances. When you get stam sorc mains say it's op and yet you get mostly people who have no idea stat flaming and spamming threads then no wonder zos either don't listen or over nerf things.

The experienced Stam Sorc mains only mained it after it was buffed lol.

No one is a "true" Stam Sorc main except for a select few.

Also people don't seem to think through why Heavy Armor is so effective or how it indirectly provides *significant* synergy with Dark Deal.

How about this..... go run 5x Hunding's Rage, 3x Agility with all stamina recovery glyphs, 3x Lekis. Invest your CPs until you have an extra 20.1% Stamina Regen from them. Do what you want with everything else.

That type of build hasn't been good in a very long time due to imbalances. You simply have no need to create a build that invests into Stam Regen when you can take the much more effective and powerful route of cost reduction, flat bonuses, and Heavy Armor.

Tell me how helpful that Dark Deal is on this build. Is it as *OP* as you thought, or just a strong and useful skill now?

I already know the answer. ESO is a numbers game and the way this sustain works out this patch is extremely easy to understand,

If you understood it, you'd see why nerfing Dark Deal before a major balance change involving Heavy Armor, procs, and flat resouce restore sustain would be a disaster (or getting it nerfed at all with ZOS being the Devs in charge).

I would of thought using medium would make the resources from dark deal last longer because of the increased reduced cost.

Instead of using up the 5k~ stamina in 3 skills, it'll be used up in 4. So despite you casting it less frequently the actual sustain each dark deal will give will be worth more.

This is where Heavy Armor becomes OP.

It provides:
• Lots of bonus Healing Recieved (more Vigor, Rally, Surge, and Dark Deal Heals)
• Lots of Max Health
• Tons of mitigation
• So much Weapon Damage (and Spl Dmg) that you'd have to accumulate a huge amount of base Weapon Damage for Medium Armor to gain the equivalent boost. Also Heavy Armor gives a base amount of Weapon Damage, so it can be further buffed.
**** • Base Stamina AND Magicka return (made ridiculously strong with Black Rose). You'd have to have an enormous raw Stamina Regeneration value to gain the same benefit from Medium Armor. You also gain a ton of Magicka from Heavy armor as if you've made an investmemt into Magicka Regeneration.

On Medium Armor, you will have to invest your CP's into Stamina Regen%, reduce Stamina cost, and reduce break free/dodge roll cost (mostly Stam Regen%). You will also and more importantly be forced to invest jewelry glyphs and/or set bonuses to gain Stamina Regeneration. You lose damage when you do this - a lot of damage.

With Heavy Armor, no sacrifices are made. Slot your Black Rose which gives fantastic sustain, health, and plenty of damage. Stack all damage and procs wherever possible. Allocate your CPs into Reduce stamina cost, reduce magicka cost, and reduce break free/dodge roll cost. No Stam Regen. You are not only going to have perfectly fine sustain.... you'll have an actual powerful source of Magicka regeneration as well via passives so Dark Deal all of the time can be spammed as much as you want.

So in the end you can get better sustain with Medium but at the cost of practically every other stat by a significant amount. Heavy gives you monstrous stats and sustain that any semi-decent player can work perfectly fine with, and it grants you a ton of free Magicka Regeneration and room for Magicka skill cost reduction so Dark Deal can be spammed a lot.

You blame heavy armor but the problem is not in the heavy armor passives, it is in several sets which are only in heavy as one of them (balck rose) is specifically for heavy and it was designed before the HA buff.

thankyourat wrote: »

Open world PvP it's op. good luck bashing it as a magicka player once the stam sorc starts line of sighting. It's too easy for a stam sorc to just go behind a tree and start dark dealing

It's easy for any class to go behind a tree and start casting their buffs/heals/sustain - or even stand there to let regen take effect if they have a high regen build.

Honestly I don't see a heavy armor stamsorc with 600 stam regen working very well. I run 1600 stam regen when I am in heavy armor with Dark Deal slotted, and it can still get pretty bad at times when people are staying on top of me and preventing me from casting dark deal. With less than half the regen, I'd have to be casting dark deal VERY often.

Vaoh wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

DD is most broken thing about stamsorc, it's ridiculously strong heal outperforms 4-6k damage per second easily, add hurricane + critical surge + vigor and stamsorc even in MA can be only nuked for full health or he'll outheal in matter of 2 seconds.
Sorc class defining ability is bolt escape.

Stam Sorc is not good in vMA because of Dark Deal lol. They are good because of Critical Surge aka perma-Vigor for PvE. Hurricane also provides high AoE DPS along with 10% movement speed and high mitigation. Stacked with Vicious Ophidian, they are ideal for vMA.

Dark Deal is nice, but not needed especially in really high score runs. Surge is the key.

Bolt Escape has been nerfed multiple times AND bugged out significantly in being "balanced". I don't want Dark Deal becoming weak amd buggy especially when none of the QQers are smart enough to wait for many things that bring up Dark Deal to be nerfed first.

I don't talk about PvE at all, if DD isn't needed for it, than cool it can be nerfed without touching 'please remove pvp cause i want to play sims' people

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

1. If you actually played sorc you'd know you don't run out of stamina...
2. It is true you just slap on heavy and dark deal and sustain forever... it is not situational its super easy to pull of with no penalty for being interrupted..
3. I don't zerg... all game mechanics and skill is pointless in zergs anyway that is based off numbers and the numbersof ults people drop at once and irrelevant
4. Surge doesn't take half your magicka... do you even stam sorc? Stop exaggerating numbers and facts for the benefit of your 'point'.
5. Your entire pew pew bow argument is actually just stupid, no one 'pew pews', again zerging is pointless. Your numbers and guesses are completely off. How will you have half stamina before you have another dark deal? What are you casting with your pew pew? Injection doesn't cost much...

All i got from this is you don't or have little idea how to play stam sorc, your a zerger, you exaggerate things and think melee is game over?

Really that is your argument?

Oh, that's right.. I forget you're that guy who will argue blindly with anyone without listening to a single thing they say.. So you don't play a certain aspect of the game, yet know with a certainty how that aspect works out - enough to tell someone who does play that way that they are wrong? or are you calling me a liar?

Crit surge = 4051 magicka.. How much magicka does the average stam toon carry? 9-10 k? That's pretty damn close to half

You cannot fill a cup that is already full.

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

In what aspect will this nerf pve? DD sorc's? They have enough sustain from VO, repentance, shards etc..

Stam sorc tanks can just get a few more shards and even then how will a channel snare, a heal nerf which they'll have healers for, the fact magicka will be taken on cast and not at the end and around 20-25% stamina return nerf kill them off? 3 of those won't matter to a tank while the other will hardly effect them.

Also the buff templars and dk have is called major mending and crit surge more than makes up for stam sorc's lack of it.

Again this is about a sustain skill being overly strong compared to the rest. Which it is? Where are all the open world builds with 600 regen and 100% in dmg? Apart from stam sorc? Other aspects of other classes aren't relevant, vitality pots aren't relevant. The main reason why stamina is strong is because of it's proc sets such as viper/veli/selene or tremor as soona s they are nerfed stamina will be dragged down back towards magicka. The only thing thats needs adjusting are a few stamina specific skills or abilities, Dark deal is one of these.

Yes i agree heavy helps towards this but the skill itself is fundamentally overly strong.

An avergae medium build can sustain just fine with 2k~ regen. 4000 stamina per cast is still very relevant. Plus the fact skills will be cheaper so the 4000 per cast won't get eaten as quickly.

2000 regen every 2s. If a stam sorc casts 2x dark deals in that time thats 8k extra stam they wouldn't of got. Then if you add the regen tick they would get 5x as much stamina back in that time for a total of 10k. It adds on very nicely.

It'll supplement sustain and not be all the sustain.

Try playing a templar, nb or dk in open world in just 600 regen like stam sorc, both templar and nb will have major sustain issues and stam dk may hold up a bit better but will still have them quickly enough.

@leepalmer95 This is the type of crowd agreeing with you -_- almost incoherent dialogue with no meaning

Not every Stam Sorc in PvE has 561CP, a perfect group, runs the exact same 13 gold items in perfect traits with Pots that the pros do and knows every fine detail of the content they are running.

Dark Deal is not needed in PvE when you are running content in the most ideal possible conditions. That is a terrible justification for it not being needed in PvE. Ideal conditions are almost never the case. It is an important skill which can very easily be made weak and should not be messed up because of PvP QQ.

Also you are again side stepping the real issue. No Stamina build should be able to sustain with absolutely zero investment into Stamina Regeneration. Currently, wearing Heavy Armor+Black Rose let's you do just that while you stack full damage and cost reduction (with that totaly balanced 50% heavy attack resource return aka 200+ CPs worth of a restore bonus). Any Stamina build can do it. Stam Sorc is just the more "noob-friendly" Stamina class in resource management thanks to Dark Deal atm. Yes it overperforms, but this is not due to the skill itself. It is caused by the broken flat resource return you can get which lets you neglect investment into actual Stamina Regeneration.

As soon as the Stamina Regeneration is relevant again, Dark Deal QQ will dissipate entirely. It's unfortunate that a thread like this gained so much traction when you could've created a productive thread on the actual glaring issues ruining Cyrodiil.

Gl with making a thread like that, look at this thread and all the 1 class meta forum warriors I've managed to bring out.

This was 1 skill, i'm not even asking for a nerf to make it useless either. I've given viable nerf's which won't kill the skill off. Yet so many people have commented, most don'y play stam sorc, some actually have no idea what their talking about, some just make things up.

There is only a few people who actually have a discussion with relevant and actual facts and numbers.

Gl trying this with all the numerous issues pvp has, most of which were from previous patches and ignored. 80% of the responses will be either l2p or one of those well thought out 'shall we all be naked and punch each other' comments.

None of which actually help the discussion.

Yes but is it better to push for a stupid nerf?

Do you honestly think a nerf would equal a 10% Stam return decrease or something else minor? It never does.

Nerfing Dark Deal (in ZOS terms) looks something like:
• You can no longer be interrupted when channelling this skill or its morphs
• Increased the cost of this skill and its morphs by 25%
• Reduced that Healh Return by 50% and Resource return by 40% from this skill and its morphs
• You take 15% increased damage and no longer regenerate Magicka when casting this skill or its morphs

A farcry from a minor change. This is a small change compared to what they've done to many skills/sets in the past as well.

Well maybe if the 1 class wonder forum warriors would just accept what they know is true maybe a lot of people could come to an agreement on small nerfs or balance changes.

Instead most balance thread are spammed with useless comments, insults, exaggeration, wrong facts, 1 word answers or sarcastic 1 liners.

If you cut out all of that out of this thread this thread would be 2-3 pages long because thats the only discussion that actually happened.

When you get a lot of experiences players say it's op, when people present fact it's op and offer fair balances. When you get stam sorc mains say it's op and yet you get mostly people who have no idea stat flaming and spamming threads then no wonder zos either don't listen or over nerf things.

The experienced Stam Sorc mains only mained it after it was buffed lol.

No one is a "true" Stam Sorc main except for a select few.

Also people don't seem to think through why Heavy Armor is so effective or how it indirectly provides *significant* synergy with Dark Deal.

How about this..... go run 5x Hunding's Rage, 3x Agility with all stamina recovery glyphs, 3x Lekis. Invest your CPs until you have an extra 20.1% Stamina Regen from them. Do what you want with everything else.

That type of build hasn't been good in a very long time due to imbalances. You simply have no need to create a build that invests into Stam Regen when you can take the much more effective and powerful route of cost reduction, flat bonuses, and Heavy Armor.

Tell me how helpful that Dark Deal is on this build. Is it as *OP* as you thought, or just a strong and useful skill now?

I already know the answer. ESO is a numbers game and the way this sustain works out this patch is extremely easy to understand,

If you understood it, you'd see why nerfing Dark Deal before a major balance change involving Heavy Armor, procs, and flat resouce restore sustain would be a disaster (or getting it nerfed at all with ZOS being the Devs in charge).

I would of thought using medium would make the resources from dark deal last longer because of the increased reduced cost.

Instead of using up the 5k~ stamina in 3 skills, it'll be used up in 4. So despite you casting it less frequently the actual sustain each dark deal will give will be worth more.

This is where Heavy Armor becomes OP.

It provides:
• Lots of bonus Healing Recieved (more Vigor, Rally, Surge, and Dark Deal Heals)
• Lots of Max Health
• Tons of mitigation
• So much Weapon Damage (and Spl Dmg) that you'd have to accumulate a huge amount of base Weapon Damage for Medium Armor to gain the equivalent boost. Also Heavy Armor gives a base amount of Weapon Damage, so it can be further buffed.
**** • Base Stamina AND Magicka return (made ridiculously strong with Black Rose). You'd have to have an enormous raw Stamina Regeneration value to gain the same benefit from Medium Armor. You also gain a ton of Magicka from Heavy armor as if you've made an investmemt into Magicka Regeneration.

On Medium Armor, you will have to invest your CP's into Stamina Regen%, reduce Stamina cost, and reduce break free/dodge roll cost (mostly Stam Regen%). You will also and more importantly be forced to invest jewelry glyphs and/or set bonuses to gain Stamina Regeneration. You lose damage when you do this - a lot of damage.

With Heavy Armor, no sacrifices are made. Slot your Black Rose which gives fantastic sustain, health, and plenty of damage. Stack all damage and procs wherever possible. Allocate your CPs into Reduce stamina cost, reduce magicka cost, and reduce break free/dodge roll cost. No Stam Regen. You are not only going to have perfectly fine sustain.... you'll have an actual powerful source of Magicka regeneration as well via passives so Dark Deal all of the time can be spammed as much as you want.

So in the end you can get better sustain with Medium but at the cost of practically every other stat by a significant amount. Heavy gives you monstrous stats and sustain that any semi-decent player can work perfectly fine with, and it grants you a ton of free Magicka Regeneration and room for Magicka skill cost reduction so Dark Deal can be spammed a lot.

It takes around 2k unbuffed weapon damage for Medium armor's 12% bonus to outweigh Wrath. I have 2500 unbuffed even on my bow bar with a low weapon damage build.

That said, I do think Medium Armor needs a little more incentive to make it the armor of choice for a DPS-focused player. Gankers are stuck with medium armor no matter how you look at it b/c the weapon damage bonus is passive... but most others are going to opt for the more balanced approach of Heavy.

The solution doesn't necessarily need to be adjustments to the passives in the armor skill lines. Honestly I really like how they are laid out now. Just restrict Shuffle to 5-piece medium, and restrict Harness Magicka to 5 piece light. This brings Heavy down a notch and gives survival incentive for both light and medium armor. This means you make a choice between passive mitigation and passive avoidance or a damage shield. I just don't think that direct nerfs to heavy armor are the right answer. It finally has a place in PVP - let's just try some small things to incentivize the other armor sets more.

edit: If there were a passive adjustment to be made, maybe light can increase magicka while medium can increase stamina, the same way that heavy increases health. This would cause power creep in PVE as well as PVP (damage-wise) so it would have to be carefully considered.

i love the taste of tears in this thread!!!

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

DD is most broken thing about stamsorc, it's ridiculously strong heal outperforms 4-6k damage per second easily, add hurricane + critical surge + vigor and stamsorc even in MA can be only nuked for full health or he'll outheal in matter of 2 seconds.
Sorc class defining ability is bolt escape.

Stam Sorc is not good in vMA because of Dark Deal lol. They are good because of Critical Surge aka perma-Vigor for PvE. Hurricane also provides high AoE DPS along with 10% movement speed and high mitigation. Stacked with Vicious Ophidian, they are ideal for vMA.

Dark Deal is nice, but not needed especially in really high score runs. Surge is the key.

Bolt Escape has been nerfed multiple times AND bugged out significantly in being "balanced". I don't want Dark Deal becoming weak amd buggy especially when none of the QQers are smart enough to wait for many things that bring up Dark Deal to be nerfed first.

I don't talk about PvE at all, if DD isn't needed for it, than cool it can be nerfed without touching 'please remove pvp cause i want to play sims' people

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

1. If you actually played sorc you'd know you don't run out of stamina...
2. It is true you just slap on heavy and dark deal and sustain forever... it is not situational its super easy to pull of with no penalty for being interrupted..
3. I don't zerg... all game mechanics and skill is pointless in zergs anyway that is based off numbers and the numbersof ults people drop at once and irrelevant
4. Surge doesn't take half your magicka... do you even stam sorc? Stop exaggerating numbers and facts for the benefit of your 'point'.
5. Your entire pew pew bow argument is actually just stupid, no one 'pew pews', again zerging is pointless. Your numbers and guesses are completely off. How will you have half stamina before you have another dark deal? What are you casting with your pew pew? Injection doesn't cost much...

All i got from this is you don't or have little idea how to play stam sorc, your a zerger, you exaggerate things and think melee is game over?

Really that is your argument?

Oh, that's right.. I forget you're that guy who will argue blindly with anyone without listening to a single thing they say.. So you don't play a certain aspect of the game, yet know with a certainty how that aspect works out - enough to tell someone who does play that way that they are wrong? or are you calling me a liar?

Crit surge = 4051 magicka.. How much magicka does the average stam toon carry? 9-10 k? That's pretty damn close to half

You cannot fill a cup that is already full.

Vaoh wrote: »

Some people just don't think it all through.....

This suggestion is a great way to nerf PvP Stam Sorcs (who are broken for many reasons besides Dark Deal) at the expense of PvE Sorcerers. All I see here is overreaction to a broken class spec over the wrong reasons.

Pinpointing Dark Deal as the culprit for Stam Sorcs being OP is ridiculous. So many other issues are present atm that cause Stamina to be OP in general. Are we going to nerf Major Vitality given to Stam DKs/Stam Temps? What about Vitality pots? Heavy Armor? Damage? Healing? Sustain? CPs? Dawnbreaker of Smiting? Incap? Stealth mechanics? Gapclosers (snare, high damage, etc)? Procs?

There are so many problems we could go on about. Instead you've chosen Dark Deal as the reason why Stam Sorcs are OP.

How about we balance Stamina and PvP in general before permanently nerfing class-defining skills that would reach into PvE? Then we could actually find out if Dark Deal needs to be ruined to make QQers happy or not.

***Keep in mind that if Stamina Regeneration on Stamina builds was relevant (and it no longer is due to Heavy Armor+Black Rose) the raw Stamina restore from Dark Deal would become proportionally much weaker.

When you have ~800 Stamina Regen with maxed out Cost Reduction and Heavy Armor+Black Rose sustaining you, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is a huge gain of Stamina.

If you run ~2900 Stamina Regen with lower cost reduction and with Medium Armor, a 4.6K Dark Deal return is not nearly as beneficial.

Heavy Armor being OP is indirectly like 90% of the reason you want Dark Deal nerfed.

Yes Dark Deal is too effective atm, but so are most other things and you need to fix the core gameplay of PvP before making bad balance decisions like this again. Sustain has been made so simple you can be absolutely fine with zero investment into it. That's the issue here - not Dark Deal.

In what aspect will this nerf pve? DD sorc's? They have enough sustain from VO, repentance, shards etc..

Stam sorc tanks can just get a few more shards and even then how will a channel snare, a heal nerf which they'll have healers for, the fact magicka will be taken on cast and not at the end and around 20-25% stamina return nerf kill them off? 3 of those won't matter to a tank while the other will hardly effect them.

Also the buff templars and dk have is called major mending and crit surge more than makes up for stam sorc's lack of it.

Again this is about a sustain skill being overly strong compared to the rest. Which it is? Where are all the open world builds with 600 regen and 100% in dmg? Apart from stam sorc? Other aspects of other classes aren't relevant, vitality pots aren't relevant. The main reason why stamina is strong is because of it's proc sets such as viper/veli/selene or tremor as soona s they are nerfed stamina will be dragged down back towards magicka. The only thing thats needs adjusting are a few stamina specific skills or abilities, Dark deal is one of these.

Yes i agree heavy helps towards this but the skill itself is fundamentally overly strong.

An avergae medium build can sustain just fine with 2k~ regen. 4000 stamina per cast is still very relevant. Plus the fact skills will be cheaper so the 4000 per cast won't get eaten as quickly.

2000 regen every 2s. If a stam sorc casts 2x dark deals in that time thats 8k extra stam they wouldn't of got. Then if you add the regen tick they would get 5x as much stamina back in that time for a total of 10k. It adds on very nicely.

It'll supplement sustain and not be all the sustain.

Try playing a templar, nb or dk in open world in just 600 regen like stam sorc, both templar and nb will have major sustain issues and stam dk may hold up a bit better but will still have them quickly enough.

@leepalmer95 This is the type of crowd agreeing with you -_- almost incoherent dialogue with no meaning

Not every Stam Sorc in PvE has 561CP, a perfect group, runs the exact same 13 gold items in perfect traits with Pots that the pros do and knows every fine detail of the content they are running.

Dark Deal is not needed in PvE when you are running content in the most ideal possible conditions. That is a terrible justification for it not being needed in PvE. Ideal conditions are almost never the case. It is an important skill which can very easily be made weak and should not be messed up because of PvP QQ.

Also you are again side stepping the real issue. No Stamina build should be able to sustain with absolutely zero investment into Stamina Regeneration. Currently, wearing Heavy Armor+Black Rose let's you do just that while you stack full damage and cost reduction (with that totaly balanced 50% heavy attack resource return aka 200+ CPs worth of a restore bonus). Any Stamina build can do it. Stam Sorc is just the more "noob-friendly" Stamina class in resource management thanks to Dark Deal atm. Yes it overperforms, but this is not due to the skill itself. It is caused by the broken flat resource return you can get which lets you neglect investment into actual Stamina Regeneration.

As soon as the Stamina Regeneration is relevant again, Dark Deal QQ will dissipate entirely. It's unfortunate that a thread like this gained so much traction when you could've created a productive thread on the actual glaring issues ruining Cyrodiil.

Gl with making a thread like that, look at this thread and all the 1 class meta forum warriors I've managed to bring out.

This was 1 skill, i'm not even asking for a nerf to make it useless either. I've given viable nerf's which won't kill the skill off. Yet so many people have commented, most don'y play stam sorc, some actually have no idea what their talking about, some just make things up.

There is only a few people who actually have a discussion with relevant and actual facts and numbers.

Gl trying this with all the numerous issues pvp has, most of which were from previous patches and ignored. 80% of the responses will be either l2p or one of those well thought out 'shall we all be naked and punch each other' comments.

None of which actually help the discussion.

Why haven't you replied to any of my points? Is it because...gasp, I was right?

I was busy but i suppose i'll put some time into slapping you again.

Thats a nice collection of pve characters you have there, i especially like the pve sorc you have with dual daggers.

I also like the way you think pve characters have anything to do with the thread or my point. Oh and don't argue they are not pve characters but it's very clear they are.

Yeah i notice not one of them have sustain because sustain isn't needed in pve. Thats covered with a group. Honestly this is just stupid now.

All i see now is some pve hero that saw a nerf thread anf read the word pvp in the first OP , then decided to be a good pve carebear and decide as a pve player you feel the need to comment about the nerf. Despite not one of your characters being specked for pvp, despite me seriously doubting you have any worth while pvp experience on those characters.

My suggested changes wouldn't even effect pve either, it's just for some reason as you feel the need to voice your opinions bout a skill used in the side of the game you don't seem to play.

You haven't heard my complaints at all, you just posting random stuff now.

Proc sets? When did i mention them.
Black rose? When did i mention that? All i said is any 5x heavy set.
Shuffle? All i said is that it was possible to shuffle dodge a bash.

Dark deal? At least you got the fact this thread is about dark deal right i guess, it's likely the only thing you've got right the entire thread. The fact that anyone can easily pull off dark deal in pvp seem to be over your head, you'd know this if you actually played pvp or played a stam sorc in pvp for more than an hour.

So TL:DR my suggested changes won't effect pve, so you being the entitled pve warrior you are can leave now.

You as a pve player feels your have a good grasp on the skill in pvp which you don't seem to play? Your entire posts are based off pve? This isn't what this thread is about.

So if you could kindly just leave the thread and stop spamming it like all of your posts have?

Wish you posted this earlier, could if just ignored you sooner.

Malamar1229 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

is DD considered a heal? Will CP like quick recovery increase the health restored?

Yes.

Hence why i say 5k heal in pvp because the tooltip is 8800 in pve and if you add in cp it's around 5k easy.

so are storks running vitality pots typically? excuse my ignorane, i havent been in cyrodiil much since my perma ban

Not sure usually no i'd guess the actual stamina return from a tri pot if you count the magicka as stamina because of dark deal is insane.

Even without vitality pots it's still an easy 5k heal per cast.

AtAfternoon wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Mobs are not gonna bash you and u have healers to heal you. So explain again how is it going to affect the skill in PVE. Whenever someone says nerf it doesnt mean make the skill useless.

I don't know what there is to explain. Unless I'm wrong you want the health and stamina you get back from dark deal to be reduced and a snare added. That's a straight up nerf since you don't get as much resources back while also losing mobility. Dark deal is the only reliable way outside of heavy attacks with sword n board to regain stamina. And it's not like mag sorcs are top tier tanks anyway.

Surge will be literally all the healing you need. Any heals you need as a tank come from the healer...

A 20-25% stamina return nerf won't break the class in pve, just get more shards off a templar, it's not that difficult.

Why would the snare nerf even effect a tank? You don't need mobility while tanking you basically stand there holding block.

There may be a few fights where you need to get out of an aoe but it's not hard to know when those situations occur and to not dark deal in that time.

Heavy attacks return enough stamina as it is, tanking is so easy in this game. This nerf wouldn't affect any half decent tank.