[video][Updated with testing] Shuffle is just... so broken

rfennell_ESO · December 2016

The problem with testing shuffle is the assumption that's it's shuffle causing the dodge spam.

It's probably not, it's probably CE or whatever it was compiled to for eso that people ARE using.

The reasoning to use is: with shuffle use being so prevalent why is it that only certain people dodge so much? It's certainly only a certain group of people (all from the same guilds I bet) that you see passively dodge things (ps they dodge when you witnessed them on a mount or a siege for longer than shuffle lasts).

They claim "shuffle lol" when caught. It's likely not shuffle, but the crux of the issue is that sometimes it is. Basically it's an additional dodge chance on top of shuffle, and shuffle works about as it ought to. Just use a nightblade to sneak into keeps during sieges and target "scum_bag x the great pvper" and attack them while they are siege and you will see it. You will see dodge spam from the 1vX youtuber types when they are immobile on siege, you will see while they are mounted... and you will see it when they have been doing both those things for longer than the duration of the major evasion buff. basically they ought have a 0% chance of dodging and any dodge is exploitation (with the rare exception of the Gossamer set being used).

ZOS has admitted there is an exploit with dodge chance, but last they bothered replying to anyone reporting it they didn't know what it was and assumed it was some combination of sets/skills/champion points that people were abusing and not reporting.

Testing on "your friend" who isn't an exploiting hacking piece of crap will likely yield unlimited ~20% and working as intended results.

glavius · December 2016

raasdal wrote: »

Regarding the extra dodge coming up in the FTC text, even though all 3 skills hit, is because the target dodges the Debuff from the skill. So in my test, i was actually hitting with 4 dodeable attacks all at once. If you pause and check the Log you can see that

Ahh that makes sense, since I used surprise attack and ransack when testing. Both have a secondary effect.

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Shuffle does need toning down, 20% chance to dodge an attack is basically 20% dmg reduction.

It should only be able to be used if you have 5 medium armor.

Shuffle + heavy is OP.

Needs the chance to dodge brought down to 12% or something as well.

Also you should not be able to dodge bash, nothing worse than trying to interrupt a stam sorc only for your interrupt to be shuffle dodged. Thats just killing off skill by stopping a player from being rewards for playing the mechanics right.

Yiko · December 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Shuffle does need toning down, 20% chance to dodge an attack is basically 20% dmg reduction.

It should only be able to be used if you have 5 medium armor.

Shuffle + heavy is OP.

Needs the chance to dodge brought down to 12% or something as well.

Also you should not be able to dodge bash, nothing worse than trying to interrupt a stam sorc only for your interrupt to be shuffle dodged. Thats just killing off skill by stopping a player from being rewards for playing the mechanics right.

The RNG needs to go in its entirety.
It's 20% damage reduction on average over a long parse maybe, but in PVP where burst is king, that 20% could make all of the difference. Leaving a fight up to something outside of either players' control (outside of casting the 20s+ buff) is silly.

ZOS needs to stop removing intelligible play & counterplay out of the game. Proc sets, shuffle, unreflectable meteors, destro ult (unblockable why?), etc.. The game is devolving over time.

kadar · December 2016

It [Shuffle] should only be able to be used if you have 5 medium armor.

F-ing PREACH. QFT.

zuto40 · December 2016

Shuffle is annoying but without it my stamblade would be pretty vulnerable since our cloak is trash, fix cloak then nerf shuffle

zuto40 · December 2016

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I don't want it nerfed, I want it out of the game. Un-nerf roll dodge and just get rid of Evasion completely, just like miss chance.

i like this idea too, fix cloak unnerf dodge roll

Docmandu · December 2016

.

Kutsuu wrote: »

I tried to post about this - major evasion being able to dodge the stun, damage increase, and defile from incap even after the physical damage itself lands... and got blasted by a bunch of naysayers.

So yeah, this has happened to me many times. IMO if the damage connects, the effects should always connect.

If you're doing that kind of damage, why does it matter then

> 23k in less than a second. #balanced

leepalmer95 · December 2016

Docmandu wrote: »

.

Kutsuu wrote: »

I tried to post about this - major evasion being able to dodge the stun, damage increase, and defile from incap even after the physical damage itself lands... and got blasted by a bunch of naysayers.

So yeah, this has happened to me many times. IMO if the damage connects, the effects should always connect.

If you're doing that kind of damage, why does it matter then > 23k in less than a second. #balanced

It's a gank build i guess xD

Kutsuu · December 2016

Docmandu wrote: »

.

Kutsuu wrote: »

I tried to post about this - major evasion being able to dodge the stun, damage increase, and defile from incap even after the physical damage itself lands... and got blasted by a bunch of naysayers.

So yeah, this has happened to me many times. IMO if the damage connects, the effects should always connect.

If you're doing that kind of damage, why does it matter then > 23k in less than a second. #balanced

Full on pants down gank build. I melt to pretty much anything when running that - 18k HP, 11k resists, divines instead of impen.

In any case, that's beside the point here.

The funny thing is that in that specific case, Jedi casted Rally immediately and turned around and dawnbreakered my face, killing me almost instantly. He was fighting multiple other players at the time, too.

Docmandu · December 2016

Kutsuu wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

.

Kutsuu wrote: »

I tried to post about this - major evasion being able to dodge the stun, damage increase, and defile from incap even after the physical damage itself lands... and got blasted by a bunch of naysayers.

So yeah, this has happened to me many times. IMO if the damage connects, the effects should always connect.

If you're doing that kind of damage, why does it matter then > 23k in less than a second. #balanced

Full on pants down gank build. I melt to pretty much anything when running that - 18k HP, 11k resists, divines instead of impen.

In any case, that's beside the point here.

The funny thing is that in that specific case, Jedi casted Rally immediately and turned around and dawnbreakered my face, killing me almost instantly. He was fighting multiple other players at the time, too.

Totally agree it's beside the point.. bugs need fixing, even if something else is unbalanced / broken.

Though I'm also of the opinion that even if you go full out DPS / squishy, that you shouldn't be able to attain that kind of damage. Just doesn't make for very fun gameplay.

Ghostbane · December 2016

working as intended.

Darnathian · December 2016

Ghostbane wrote: »

working as intended.

I heard of this guy. Kodi i think it is?

Sallington · December 2016

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I don't want it nerfed, I want it out of the game. Un-nerf roll dodge and just get rid of Evasion completely, just like miss chance.

Agreed. The whole point of the dodge roll cost reduction in the medium armor tree is to make medium armor users more agile and be able to dodge more attacks (along with the larger stam pool).

I like the suggestion to make Shuffle more of a snare immunity tool, and unnerf roll dodge.

Sugaroverdose · December 2016

Sallington wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I don't want it nerfed, I want it out of the game. Un-nerf roll dodge and just get rid of Evasion completely, just like miss chance.

Agreed. The whole point of the dodge roll cost reduction in the medium armor tree is to make medium armor users more agile and be able to dodge more attacks (along with the larger stam pool).

I like the suggestion to make Shuffle more of a snare immunity tool, and unnerf roll dodge.

It's already spammable, it was almost infinite in 1.6, with current well-fitted trait it will become infinite, add tava's favour on top and you'll get 100% of rolling over the map spamming dawnbreaker every 20 seconds cancer

Magus · December 2016

Two things.

1) Did you use another addon to look at the buff/debuffs on the target? If the major defile hit for instance, it would show up on your end if you target them with something like LUI, or if the target had srendarr the major defile debuff would show up. It's possible CLS is registered it as a miss because of no damage but the affect is still getting applied reporting as a miss in CLS.

2) Give major evasion to elude but no snare removal/immunity, give shuffle the snare immunity but no major evasion but extend it to 6s regardless of how many pieces of medium equipped. Magicka users need something to combat the dragonknights spamming talons like it's 1.5 again except now with CP and new sets they can spam it every second without running out of magicka. It's very appreciated to be spammed talons, crippling grasp, and frost reach and then get ran over by a zerg. I'll just use mist form to get away and then gap close rooted, but alas that's off topic.

KisoValley · December 2016

Can I have some video proof with proper testing?

Until then this is another pointless post tbh

Sugaroverdose · December 2016

Magus wrote: »

Magicka users need something to combat the dragonknights spamming talons like it's 1.5 again except now with CP and new sets they can spam it every second without running out of magicka. It's very appreciated to be spammed talons, crippling grasp, and frost reach and then get ran over by a zerg. I'll just use mist form to get away and then gap close rooted, but alas that's off topic.

It's cool how you used frost reach and crippling grasp to ask for mdk nerf in threat about shuffle bug O.O, can you teach me?

Magus · December 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Magus wrote: »

Magicka users need something to combat the dragonknights spamming talons like it's 1.5 again except now with CP and new sets they can spam it every second without running out of magicka. It's very appreciated to be spammed talons, crippling grasp, and frost reach and then get ran over by a zerg. I'll just use mist form to get away and then gap close rooted, but alas that's off topic.

It's cool how you used frost reach and crippling grasp to ask for mdk nerf in threat about shuffle bug O.O, can you teach me?

I'll be teaching advanced forum-fu 301 on Wednesday evenings next semester. But in all seriousness, there is no soft cc immunity like there is hard cc immunity after breaking free, so people can spam abilities like talons, frost reach, and grippling grasp on you and you lose complete control over your character unless you are medium armor using shuffle, using 2h forward momentum, 2h ultimate, or mist form. Purge doesn't work because they are spamming it on you, purge it off and it's right back on. It's sloppy game design, unless you like to stand in one place rooted? Oh, you just gave me an idea to look into to counter it. Excellent.

Armitas · December 2016

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

ZOS has admitted there is an exploit with dodge chance, but last they bothered replying to anyone reporting it they didn't know what it was and assumed it was some combination of sets/skills/champion points that people were abusing and not reporting.

Testing on "your friend" who isn't an exploiting hacking piece of crap will likely yield unlimited ~20% and working as intended results.

I know exactly what you mean.

Kutsuu · December 2016

Magus wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Magus wrote: »

Magicka users need something to combat the dragonknights spamming talons like it's 1.5 again except now with CP and new sets they can spam it every second without running out of magicka. It's very appreciated to be spammed talons, crippling grasp, and frost reach and then get ran over by a zerg. I'll just use mist form to get away and then gap close rooted, but alas that's off topic.

It's cool how you used frost reach and crippling grasp to ask for mdk nerf in threat about shuffle bug O.O, can you teach me?

I'll be teaching advanced forum-fu 301 on Wednesday evenings next semester. But in all seriousness, there is no soft cc immunity like there is hard cc immunity after breaking free, so people can spam abilities like talons, frost reach, and grippling grasp on you and you lose complete control over your character unless you are medium armor using shuffle, using 2h forward momentum, 2h ultimate, or mist form. Purge doesn't work because they are spamming it on you, purge it off and it's right back on. It's sloppy game design, unless you like to stand in one place rooted? Oh, you just gave me an idea to look into to counter it. Excellent.

Reactive set works on Immobilize. Combine it with a teleport strike morph on a NB (can be used while immobilized) and you might get more ideas.

God_flakes · December 2016

I find it outrageous that they allow shuffle to be absolutely totally and without a doubt broken for months and months yet they will make sure the latest patch includes a way to stop NB from cloaking when they cast a skill. It's so arbitrary and lacking in any sense that it's almost comical at this point.

Kutsuu · December 2016

God_flakes wrote: »

I find it outrageous that they allow shuffle to be absolutely totally and without a doubt broken for months and months yet they will make sure the latest patch includes a way to stop NB from cloaking when they cast a skill. It's so arbitrary and lacking in any sense that it's almost comical at this point.

People traditionally hate stealth classes, and they complain a lot. For better or worse ZOS actually does cave in to forum complaints. "It is what it is" is all I can really say to that. I used to play nightblades exclusively, but now I have lots of other characters and just log onto something else when I'm having a bad time of it on the NB. Shrug.

zyk · December 2016

Armitas wrote: »

I know exactly what you mean.

RNG bro L2P gitgud.

Sugaroverdose · December 2016

God_flakes wrote: »

I find it outrageous that they allow shuffle to be absolutely totally and without a doubt broken for months and months yet they will make sure the latest patch includes a way to stop NB from cloaking when they cast a skill. It's so arbitrary and lacking in any sense that it's almost comical at this point.

Than nightblades should have something else to survive, cloak is class defining ability and nerfing it even more while it's already broken just wrong

Magus wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Magus wrote: »

Magicka users need something to combat the dragonknights spamming talons like it's 1.5 again except now with CP and new sets they can spam it every second without running out of magicka. It's very appreciated to be spammed talons, crippling grasp, and frost reach and then get ran over by a zerg. I'll just use mist form to get away and then gap close rooted, but alas that's off topic.

It's cool how you used frost reach and crippling grasp to ask for mdk nerf in threat about shuffle bug O.O, can you teach me?

I'll be teaching advanced forum-fu 301 on Wednesday evenings next semester. But in all seriousness, there is no soft cc immunity like there is hard cc immunity after breaking free, so people can spam abilities like talons, frost reach, and grippling grasp on you and you lose complete control over your character unless you are medium armor using shuffle, using 2h forward momentum, 2h ultimate, or mist form. Purge doesn't work because they are spamming it on you, purge it off and it's right back on. It's sloppy game design, unless you like to stand in one place rooted? Oh, you just gave me an idea to look into to counter it. Excellent.

i've played magplar from IC to 1T, and in times when mist form was broken i just used purifying ritual, which actually insanely strong ability, in current state roots for vamp magplar means nothing.

If you get spammed by tallons, then you insanely bad in kiting, 6m is 1.5-2s of moving without sprint or speed buff.

To be clear: what class are you playing that you actually can't counter roots?

PS: Still, this topic is about BUG in ability called Shuffle, it's better if you share your concerns about completely different thing in topics about those thing or create a new one

Magus · December 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

God_flakes wrote: »

I find it outrageous that they allow shuffle to be absolutely totally and without a doubt broken for months and months yet they will make sure the latest patch includes a way to stop NB from cloaking when they cast a skill. It's so arbitrary and lacking in any sense that it's almost comical at this point.

Than nightblades should have something else to survive, cloak is class defining ability and nerfing it even more while it's already broken just wrong

Magus wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Magus wrote: »

Magicka users need something to combat the dragonknights spamming talons like it's 1.5 again except now with CP and new sets they can spam it every second without running out of magicka. It's very appreciated to be spammed talons, crippling grasp, and frost reach and then get ran over by a zerg. I'll just use mist form to get away and then gap close rooted, but alas that's off topic.

It's cool how you used frost reach and crippling grasp to ask for mdk nerf in threat about shuffle bug O.O, can you teach me?

I'll be teaching advanced forum-fu 301 on Wednesday evenings next semester. But in all seriousness, there is no soft cc immunity like there is hard cc immunity after breaking free, so people can spam abilities like talons, frost reach, and grippling grasp on you and you lose complete control over your character unless you are medium armor using shuffle, using 2h forward momentum, 2h ultimate, or mist form. Purge doesn't work because they are spamming it on you, purge it off and it's right back on. It's sloppy game design, unless you like to stand in one place rooted? Oh, you just gave me an idea to look into to counter it. Excellent.

i've played magplar from IC to 1T, and in times when mist form was broken i just used purifying ritual, which actually insanely strong ability, in current state roots for vamp magplar means nothing.

If you get spammed by tallons, then you insanely bad in kiting, 6m is 1.5-2s of moving without sprint or speed buff.

To be clear: what class are you playing that you actually can't counter roots?

I think I kind of just said how to counter roots in my last post? I just said it was very annoying when players spam roots just as fast as you purge them off because there is so soft cc immunity, if even for 1-2 seconds would be a beautiful thing. It's really only an issue when you are fighting outnumbered and the potato group has a special DK in group that literally only hits one key. That said, my suggestion of shuffle losing major evasion and gaining a new buff called major unroot (or whatever) that provides a snare immunity for 5-6 secs (separate from cc immunity) would be great for magicka builds and still not spammable because of stam management for casting shuffle and cc breaks. It would be a nightmare if stamina builds used it though. So, nevermind. As you were, I retract my statements.

Sugaroverdose · December 2016

It's annoying, but it's actually zerg related than about roots.

FYI mDK tallons is a thing which actually gives them option to deal noticeable damage and they cannot be considered as "helps zergs to chase one poor guy" just because of their cost, and small radius

You have more chances to instantly die while chased by zerg getting pertify/rune prison/agony

RinaldoGandolphi · December 2016

Shuffle works fine for people who don't cheat or hack.

Shuffle doesn't dodge every single attack for me, nor any of my friends who use it, and the root and snare immunity doesn't even work right half the time forcing you to spam it just to be able to move

Shuffle and Nightblade Double Take are the same skill 20% chance to dodge, if Shuffle is broken so is Double Take/Blur..they both give the same bonus Major Evasion. One removes roots and snares the other gives speed other then that they date the same

The dodged skills in the OP could very well have been from Blur as well as Shuffle.

Try Shuffe for yourself if you don't hack or cheat you will find it don't dodge everything, Dodge roll itself however has far too large an immunity window and if you wear the Crusader set you can increase that window even more...yup...sidestep weaving bee bop lol

Taylor_MB · December 2016

Just jumping back in to remind everyone to please read the OP
We are not discussing major evasion dodge percentage or possible cheat engine manipulation or general dodge spam.

The above screenshots demonstrate that (for incap) debuffs associated with a damage attack can be separately shuffle dodged. 100% confirmed that it is not just an add-on error, in controlled testing when it said "xyz has dodged Incap Strike" the target took damage but did not get stunned. No I did not test separately for major defile or damage taken but I would assume consistency. Even if defile and damage taken are just a add-on error the stun being dodged when the incap hit is still a large enough issue (see results of the 20 controlled tests I did).

This is a clear and obvious bug with major evasion getting calculated on debuffs even when the initial attack is connected. Debuffs do not still have an 80% to apply when initial damaged is shuffle dodged, so why would it work the other way around? This is causing an over 20% dodge chance.

Edit: If people would like to do further testing with like dark flare + defile, I'm pretty confident you will have the same result (but I'm all tested out, I just want to fight (even with my broken skills)).

Kryptonite_Kent · December 2016

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Just jumping back in to remind everyone to please read the OP
We are not discussing major evasion dodge percentage or possible cheat engine manipulation.

The above screenshots demonstrate that (for incap) debuffs associated with a damage attack can be separately shuffle dodged. 100% confirmed that it is not just an add-on error, in controlled testing when it said "xyz has dodged Incap Strike" the target took damage but did not get stunned. No I did not test separately for major defile or damage taken but I would assume consistency. Even if defile and damage taken are just a add-on error the stun being dodged when the incap hit is still a large enough issue (see results of the 20 controlled tests I did).

This is a clear and obvious bug with major evasion getting calculated on debuffs even when the initial attack is connected. Debuffs do not still have an 80% to apply when initial damaged is shuffle dodged, so why would it work the other way around? This is causing an over 20% dodge chance.

Edit: If people would like to do further testing with like dark flare + defile, I'm pretty confident you will have the same result (but I'm all tested out, I just want to fight (even with my broken skills)).

Seems pretty simple to figure out, the game considers the attack and whatever debuffs/stuns/etc that are "attached" to it as separately "applied" actions and each one is factored against the 20% dodge chance... as the debuffs are "attached" to the attack however, if the attack is dodged the debuffs are simply not activated as it then considers that they were never triggered by landing the required attack.

Not saying that it SHOULD work that way, just that it would most certainly seem to...