More transparency from ZOS

ColoursYouHave · December 2016

To me, more important than the amount of communication is the quality of communication. ZOS' primary form of communication seems to be keep everything a big secret with bits and pieces of information thrown in to keep us interested, release something new, then rarely talk about it again.

For instance, we've received bits and pieces of information about balance changes coming in the next major update. I can almost guarantee that ZOS is going to be fairly quiet until they eventually come out with a big announcement about the next update, have it on the PTS within a week or so, ignore most feedback about class balance, and then a couple weeks after it goes live, go back to focusing on releasing bits and pieces of information about the next update, with very little dialogue about the content they just released ever occurring. They will tell us what they are doing every couple months, but give nearly no explanation as to why they're doing it. And this makes it feel like the developers have no real vision or direction for the game's future.

What I would really like to see is more dialogue between major updates. This doesn't mean you need to tell us everything you're doing, but talking about what you would like to see moving forward would go a long way towards making the community feel like they share a common goal with the developers. For example, rather than simply telling us you're going to change some of the proc sets, you could have Eric Wrobel start a thread discussing his thoughts on proc sets, including things like why he thinks proc sets may need to be changed, what types of changes he is considering for proc sets (again, we don't need to hear exactly what you want to do with a specific set, but rather a more general statement like "We would like to see proc sets do less burst damage, but we are also considering making them proc less reliably"), what potential changes wouldn't be good for proc sets, etc. What this does is not only provide the community with the sense that the developers have a long term vision for the game's future that they are actively working towards, but it also opens up a channel of communication between the community and developers where both parties can express their thoughts and concerns about a specific topic. The developers don't always need to agree with the community's suggestions, and they shouldn't be expected too, but simply explaining why they don't think an idea will work effectively would go a very long way towards easing relations between the developers and the community.

A great example of this is when Blizzard released a new Hearthstone expansion (for those who are unfamiliar with Hearthstone, I'll keep this simple enough that the only thing you need to know about Hearthstone is that it is a card game where players choose cards based on their class) that gave the worst class in the game nothing but bad cards, with one of them being arguably the worst card in the game. After players expressed their frustration with the decision, the lead developer, Ben Brode, made a video for his "Designer Insights" YouTube Series (another great PR idea for ZOS; developers periodically releasing brief 5-10 minute videos discussing popular topics within the community) talking about their decision to release those cards in that expansion. In the video he discussed that in hindsight they realized they made a mistake. He explained why they made that mistake, in that they had a poor read on the community's feelings towards balance, and while they were well aware that the cards they released weren't necessarily "good" cards, they did serve a purpose of being "fun" cards for people to make creative, though non-competitive decks. He also discussed what they are going to do to fix the mistake, where he explained that they have a larger plan to improve the class that couldn't be implemented immediately, but they were going to make some smaller short-term changes to improve things in the mean time. And while some people naturally still had their criticisms of the developer's decisions, it helped ease the tension between the developers and the community massively, where even many of those who remained critical of their decisions were still at least somewhat content that the developers acknowledged that there was an issue, explained why they made their decisions, and provided information on how they are going to improve things moving forward.

In short, what I really want to say is that ZOS needs to talk to us, not at us. Don't just tell us what you are going to do, tell us why you are going to do it. If you don't think our ideas will be effective, tell us why they won't be effective. Do something to give us some sort of indication that there is a bigger vision for the game's future than just taking it one patch at a time.

lucky_Sage · December 2016

we wont more openness on balance changes before they happen. us players play the game a lot and love it put time money and hard work into it we care about it. but when most interaction with us is only on crown stuff not balance changes or other important topics.

I've put more money and time into this game than any other game it has the most potential. not liking way things are going balance is getting worse with every update in pvp. most vet dungeons you face roll. all pvp is who has the fastest burst not skill proc sets rule pvp, cp is broken. but haven't seen anything on what's being changed.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · December 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

Vorcil wrote: »

Thealteregoroman wrote: »

They are silent because the mobs on here are bi-polar. If I was ZOS all I would see coming on this forum is mobs full of pitchforks and fire.

I do understand the annoyance with the game most are experiencing but I feel its hard to have that open communication like some other MMO's do............that are on PS4......cause they are like/loved.

A majority of people on here are extremely snobbish.......how can you talk to a snobbish person? Ignore them.

I feel as a community to be taken seriously we should be adults about things......especially when we don't get our way.

That just highlights the inability to take criticism positively, even negatively portrayed criticism.

If there are fundamental flaws in the game, and thousands of players are infuriated by it; probably best not to ignore it...

When ESO was a subscription based model, we had attentiveness tot he point where support were 'roleplaying' everything they were saying. I just don't see the same community involvement anymore.

Yeah, the engagement went from 8/10 to 2/10. Oh well, just fix Eclipse and we can call it even, ZOS

sure but don't forget to remove radiant destruction as well(or fix it.. like make it and not just it but all executes to become usable only when target hits the specific execute % like 25% for killer's blade etc. is not that hard and tbh the other classes don't suffer this much cuz they cant go in a grp of 10-20 and spam 1 skill from max range and melt everything like Void Rays do in StarCraft2... and yes it is a very good comparison!)

magnusthorek · December 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As far as bug reports go, we do our best to let you know if something is being investigated or if we have a fix in the pipeline, but we know there's always room for improvement.

With all possible respect Gina, but this not what's happening these last hotfixes and/or maintenances.

There was a maintenance a while extremely lengthy and the staff said you guys/gals were handling "an outstanding bug".

As a player, I could let it go, but I would like to know what it was (I'm curious ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). As a developer I feel this as a sarcastic answer that should not happen -OR- should be done more carefully. I'm a big fan of humor myself in general but this one in the midst of a heated discussion, in which several players were kind of irritated, it's wrong, specially because we didn't have any details about the so called "outstanding bug".

More recently when everything was shut down for a hotfix, the one that introduced the new Ambrosias if I recall correctly, someone asked details about what was so important and the answer given was very blunt, that you found an issue that should be immediately addressed and period.

I know you're humans and maybe sometimes, internally, you just want to "*** off" everyone who ask but, from what was described in patch notes, there wasn't anything that important in sight that required an unexpected maintenance like that.

Again, as player, I could ignore, but as a developer it's pretty clear that someone screwed something and published accidentally (maybe for their own advantages, who knows what devs can do more than regular players...) and that was reverted together with the new feature implementation BUT not mentioned in the patch notes.

Like I said we are (still) humans (for now) and *** happens, but ZOS could REALLY be a LOT more transparent than it currently is.

Sneaky-Snurr · December 2016

Transparency? ZOS? HAH!

Tyvarra · December 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We know everyone's super anxious to hear about the next new thing. Hang tight - we have some info coming soon.

More than "new" things I want to know when you will fix all the broken proc sets and other bugs? Let me guess "soon" or "never"? ;P I dont need new stuff, as long as the old stuff is broken tbh.

JKorr · December 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

MopeyHat wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for taking the time to give us your thoughts. In general, we like to wait to give you information until we know for sure when a feature is being introduced, and remember we do usually have a bigger plan about when/how we announce updates. As far as bug reports go, we do our best to let you know if something is being investigated or if we have a fix in the pipeline, but we know there's always room for improvement.

We know everyone's super anxious to hear about the next new thing. Hang tight - we have some info coming soon.

Honestly I would just like to see devs talking to players a bit more on these forums and not on Reddit, or in some interview off site. Bring back some Q&As. They are a great, controlled method for interaction.

I guess you could say I'm not so interested in feature/fix announcements and "omg new stuff" as knowing that the devs are alive (and as a bonus, happy) and not locked away in a box working solely on crown store features. That you still have humans back there somewhere.

For what it's worth, the developers do mainly post here and rarely post on reddit (with the exception of when we host an AMA over there). The reason we like to host an AMA on the ESO subreddit is so everyone can participate (our forums require an invitation code), and it's also much easier to track and answer questions with multiple people due to how their formatting is. Interviews on external sites are a different beast.

So.....allowing "everyone" to participate on a site that not all of the actual players of the game use is better than hosting the information on the website where "everyone" is the actual playerbase of the game. So "everyone" who may not be playing the game gets the information, but the playerbase doesn't unless they go hunting on outside sites. ......Anyone else slightly confused about how that works?

If allowing "everyone" access was so important, why do these forums require an access code?

Stopnaggin · December 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Stopnaggin wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for taking the time to give us your thoughts. In general, we like to wait to give you information until we know for sure when a feature is being introduced, and remember we do usually have a bigger plan about when/how we announce updates. As far as bug reports go, we do our best to let you know if something is being investigated or if we have a fix in the pipeline, but we know there's always room for improvement.

We know everyone's super anxious to hear about the next new thing. Hang tight - we have some info coming soon.

Thank you, this is the very kind of communication we've been asking for. To me it goes along way with your community.

Is it really? You actually think SOON is good communication? Here's a little experiment you can do. Try responding SOON whenever a family member or significant other asks you when you are going to do something you promised to do. See how far SOON gets you.

Soon is better than silence, we have no idea how much information she has. Sorry but I'm not one of those that has to have it now types. I guess that family member would rather hear nothing instead of soon? Because in my world if I just ignore things they tend to get worse, not go away.

Erock25 · December 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Also, just want to make sure everyone is aware of our Dev Tracker. It's a little hidden, but can be found at the top of the forum next to Recent Discussions (or you can just click here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/tracker)

Why can't i find DevTracker on the mobile site? Anyone want to point out its location to me in case I'm missing it or does it really not exist?

ZOS_GinaBruno · December 2016

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Gina stopped by to say soon lol . When will soon be then ?

(Seriously)

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Also, just want to make sure everyone is aware of our Dev Tracker. It's a little hidden, but can be found at the top of the forum next to Recent Discussions (or you can just click here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/tracker)

Will Moderators ever get there own "Z" symbol?

We were actually just talking about options for this yesterday afternoon. With the way things are currently setup, the Z icon next to threads is tied to any staff post (whether it be an admin, moderator, dev, etc). Removing the icon also removes the green text, border, and background from staff posts. It's not ideal, but we are seeing what else we can do.

MopeyHat wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

MopeyHat wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for taking the time to give us your thoughts. In general, we like to wait to give you information until we know for sure when a feature is being introduced, and remember we do usually have a bigger plan about when/how we announce updates. As far as bug reports go, we do our best to let you know if something is being investigated or if we have a fix in the pipeline, but we know there's always room for improvement.

We know everyone's super anxious to hear about the next new thing. Hang tight - we have some info coming soon.

Honestly I would just like to see devs talking to players a bit more on these forums and not on Reddit, or in some interview off site. Bring back some Q&As. They are a great, controlled method for interaction.

I guess you could say I'm not so interested in feature/fix announcements and "omg new stuff" as knowing that the devs are alive (and as a bonus, happy) and not locked away in a box working solely on crown store features. That you still have humans back there somewhere.

For what it's worth, the developers do mainly post here and rarely post on reddit (with the exception of when we host an AMA over there). The reason we like to host an AMA on the ESO subreddit is so everyone can participate (our forums require an invitation code), and it's also much easier to track and answer questions with multiple people due to how their formatting is. Interviews on external sites are a different beast.

Thanks for the reply, but the subreddit really doesn't have the desired visibility to community as a whole. If you are doing things there, it would at least be nice to see a schedule ahead of time and a link to the AMA/QA from here on the forums and in the announcements.

We do typically promote an AMA on the ESO subreddit on these forums ahead of time, and update the OP with the link when it begins.

ZOS_GinaBruno · December 2016

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

To me, more important than the amount of communication is the quality of communication. ZOS' primary form of communication seems to be keep everything a big secret with bits and pieces of information thrown in to keep us interested, release something new, then rarely talk about it again.

For instance, we've received bits and pieces of information about balance changes coming in the next major update. I can almost guarantee that ZOS is going to be fairly quiet until they eventually come out with a big announcement about the next update, have it on the PTS within a week or so, ignore most feedback about class balance, and then a couple weeks after it goes live, go back to focusing on releasing bits and pieces of information about the next update, with very little dialogue about the content they just released ever occurring. They will tell us what they are doing every couple months, but give nearly no explanation as to why they're doing it. And this makes it feel like the developers have no real vision or direction for the game's future.

What I would really like to see is more dialogue between major updates. This doesn't mean you need to tell us everything you're doing, but talking about what you would like to see moving forward would go a long way towards making the community feel like they share a common goal with the developers. For example, rather than simply telling us you're going to change some of the proc sets, you could have Eric Wrobel start a thread discussing his thoughts on proc sets, including things like why he thinks proc sets may need to be changed, what types of changes he is considering for proc sets (again, we don't need to hear exactly what you want to do with a specific set, but rather a more general statement like "We would like to see proc sets do less burst damage, but we are also considering making them proc less reliably"), what potential changes wouldn't be good for proc sets, etc. What this does is not only provide the community with the sense that the developers have a long term vision for the game's future that they are actively working towards, but it also opens up a channel of communication between the community and developers where both parties can express their thoughts and concerns about a specific topic. The developers don't always need to agree with the community's suggestions, and they shouldn't be expected too, but simply explaining why they don't think an idea will work effectively would go a very long way towards easing relations between the developers and the community.

A great example of this is when Blizzard released a new Hearthstone expansion (for those who are unfamiliar with Hearthstone, I'll keep this simple enough that the only thing you need to know about Hearthstone is that it is a card game where players choose cards based on their class) that gave the worst class in the game nothing but bad cards, with one of them being arguably the worst card in the game. After players expressed their frustration with the decision, the lead developer, Ben Brode, made a video for his "Designer Insights" YouTube Series (another great PR idea for ZOS; developers periodically releasing brief 5-10 minute videos discussing popular topics within the community) talking about their decision to release those cards in that expansion. In the video he discussed that in hindsight they realized they made a mistake. He explained why they made that mistake, in that they had a poor read on the community's feelings towards balance, and while they were well aware that the cards they released weren't necessarily "good" cards, they did serve a purpose of being "fun" cards for people to make creative, though non-competitive decks. He also discussed what they are going to do to fix the mistake, where he explained that they have a larger plan to improve the class that couldn't be implemented immediately, but they were going to make some smaller short-term changes to improve things in the mean time. And while some people naturally still had their criticisms of the developer's decisions, it helped ease the tension between the developers and the community massively, where even many of those who remained critical of their decisions were still at least somewhat content that the developers acknowledged that there was an issue, explained why they made their decisions, and provided information on how they are going to improve things moving forward.

In short, what I really want to say is that ZOS needs to talk to us, not at us. Don't just tell us what you are going to do, tell us why you are going to do it. If you don't think our ideas will be effective, tell us why they won't be effective. Do something to give us some sort of indication that there is a bigger vision for the game's future than just taking it one patch at a time.

Wow, thanks for writing out your thoughts! All well said, and totally understand where you're coming from. As mentioned on an earlier page, we do have a much larger plan about when and how we release information when it comes to major updates; there are many internal and external parties involved.

For "smaller" things that aren't necessarily a major update - like balance changes - we typically prefer to wait until we have our plans squared away to share them with everyone for a number of reasons. First, it obviously takes a lot of time to figure out what exactly we're going to be changing and how it will impact the entire game; there's a ton of discussion that occurs across different departments. In figuring out how we're going to change something, we also look at different sources of data including hard numbers from our BI department, feedback from forums and in-game reports, internal playtests and discussions, and more. This is all a pretty fast moving train with things changing by the minute in cases where we're figuring out how to solve a problem, and requesting a developer keep a thread updated is time spent away from implementing the actual work. The time spent making a post may seem inconsequential, but it does take time to type out replies (hell, the time it's taken to write this one has been well over 15 minutes so far, but I also get interrupted a lot

).

In the past, we've tried to give more insight and information on ESO Live. We'll continue to try and do that when we pick the show back up next year. We'll also have some discussions internally about creating a "here's why we did this thing" either as a forum thread, or even a few lines in the patch notes. How's that sound?

Nestor · December 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[We'll also have some discussions internally about creating a "here's why we did this thing" either as a forum thread, or even a few lines in the patch notes. How's that sound?

In some kind of Developer Discussion where the Developer actually participates in the discussion would be a good place for this. It could be in patch notes or a thread.

But the community impression is, developers don't listen to the players, particularly on the PTS. Which makes us wonder, is the PTS a test environment or a preview environment? It seems more a marketing tool than a development tool designed to make the game as good as it could be. Perhaps in the feedback threads in the PTS, developers could chime in with thoughts and philosophies. Right now it just seems that people are yelling at a wall.

ZOS_GinaBruno · December 2016

Nestor wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[We'll also have some discussions internally about creating a "here's why we did this thing" either as a forum thread, or even a few lines in the patch notes. How's that sound?

In some kind of Developer Discussion where the Developer actually participates in the discussion would be a good place for this. It could be in patch notes or a thread.

But the community impression is, developers don't listen to the players, particularly on the PTS. Which makes us wonder, is the PTS a test environment or a preview environment? It seems more a marketing tool than a development tool designed to make the game as good as it could be. Perhaps in the feedback threads in the PTS, developers could chime in with thoughts and philosophies. Right now it just seems that people are yelling at a wall.

The team definitely reads the threads and posts during a PTS testing cycle and takes your feedback into account. It can be hard to see in the cases where feedback doesn't seem to get implemented, but there are reasons. Sometimes it's because an idea just wouldn't mesh with another aspect of the game in the grander scope. Sometimes it's just due to lack of time.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

Soon, is CM speak for please shut up. We have nothing to report .

FleetwoodSmack · December 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[We'll also have some discussions internally about creating a "here's why we did this thing" either as a forum thread, or even a few lines in the patch notes. How's that sound?

In some kind of Developer Discussion where the Developer actually participates in the discussion would be a good place for this. It could be in patch notes or a thread.

But the community impression is, developers don't listen to the players, particularly on the PTS. Which makes us wonder, is the PTS a test environment or a preview environment? It seems more a marketing tool than a development tool designed to make the game as good as it could be. Perhaps in the feedback threads in the PTS, developers could chime in with thoughts and philosophies. Right now it just seems that people are yelling at a wall.

The team definitely reads the threads and posts during a PTS testing cycle and takes your feedback into account. It can be hard to see in the cases where feedback doesn't seem to get implemented, but there are reasons. Sometimes it's because an idea just wouldn't mesh with another aspect of the game in the grander scope. Sometimes it's just due to lack of time.

I get what you're saying, but... Some of these things have existed in the late first year of ESO's life. In April, we'll be going on the third year. Some even before THAT. With the lack of transparency a lot of these things feel like excuses at this point. Like, we've had enough time for most of these problems to either get fixed or notice an INCREASE in performance. Like Cyrodiil lag, or the animation priority issues that are still happening. More than enough time's expired for these things to have even the slightest bit of improvement, but after every major update it tends to tank after the first week or two.

With the highly anticipated player housing/balance update; this is very disconcerting to say the least. A lot of us probably feel like we're walking on eggshells in here because of what we truly WANT to say- which is constructive, but something that developers probably don't want to hear. With the time spent on implementing things like crown crates and ending up being vehemently protested not once but twice, or fixing something that wasn't broke instead of something that WAS broke, that time and effort could have gone into something more well received across the board. And that's just one example. Them coming out and actually talking to us would have probably even gone further than crown crates did, as demonstrated by PAWS ((Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates).

Regardless on how we feel about the developers right now, we still

you. We're just upset with them.

essi2 · December 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We'll also have some discussions internally about creating a "here's why we did this thing" either as a forum thread, or even a few lines in the patch notes. How's that sound?

Justifying why you did something would be a welcome change.

Whether it should be as a comment in the patch notes or a forum thread should probably depend on the size of the change and/or size of the feature in question.

JKorr · December 2016

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Even a Dev reply to concerns on the pts along the lines of "We hear you. Yes, this is an issue. We're aware. However due to circumstances outside of our authorized concerns, we can't make changes. Sorry." Or even, "There are other changes and items in the works, and these ideas can't work with those. We'll have more information on things eventually." While some people would want justifications, details, the designer committee meeting minutes and list of who had what for lunch and still not be satisfied, some would just like to know we aren't, as someone said above, just yelling at a wall. It is very easy to say "No one even noticed our feedback, why bother at all?" I get that feeling when exploits like the banker assistant/survey problem are found on the pts and still make it into the game, apparently with the hope no one will find it.

Honestly, 100+ pages of feedback, statistics, comments, and speculation on the clown crates, and what was said was "'We see you're upset, We'll look into tweaking the drop rates, we'll look at allowing trading in of the consumables, and any changes we make won't be tested on the pts again before the crates go live." isn't exactly acknowledgement of the many concerns and issues the players were raising about the crates. Not to mention the feedback on the pts is usually coming from the long time players and supporters of the game who really do want to keep playing, and possibly give ZOS more money.

ItsGlaive · December 2016

Obviously today's news on housing is a welcome distraction, but there are still many threads on the first page that could do with some input given recent developments - even if that input is "nothing is changing" or "we're aware" - acknowledgement it's a thing is sometimes all the community needs.

Examples:

The ongoing crown crate discussion - maybe some comments on why, or even just reassurances that decent stuff will still be put into the store also: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/306223/do-not-buy-crown-crates#latest
Also crown crates - threads have been moderated and closed which were asking if gems are being correctly allotted, as some of the maths seemed off and amounts seemed low. Confirmation/responses would be welcome.
Proc sets - some indication of the kinds of things that might be seen in terms of changes. If nothing is set in stone then a big, bold text "nothing set in stone, still a WIP" accompanying comments would be preferable to absolute silence
Ongoing Cyrodiil fixes. Personally I'd love an announcement on server upgrades, I'm pretty sure that's all that remains to be done here after two years of incremental changes.
Cheat threads - there was another one today - no official response on it
The dozens of ideas and suggestions threads posted by loving fans each and every week - just a little "that's a good idea, I'll pass it along to the dev team," or a "we thought that too, but it wouldn't work because of X and Y" would make such a difference in the community.

Not everything has to be a definite announcement, and not everything has to be related to new products or updates, as these examples show. There are other times where communication can help steer the conversation and set the tone. Consistent openness and transparency could go a long way to turning the atmosphere around on these forums, but it would need to be consistent.

Vorcil · December 2016

Erock25 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Also, just want to make sure everyone is aware of our Dev Tracker. It's a little hidden, but can be found at the top of the forum next to Recent Discussions (or you can just click here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/tracker)

Why can't i find DevTracker on the mobile site? Anyone want to point out its location to me in case I'm missing it or does it really not exist?

Just copy and paste the link into a browser: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/tracker

Yolokin_Swagonborn · December 2016

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

I can almost guarantee that ZOS is going to be fairly quiet until they eventually come out with a big announcement about the next update, have it on the PTS within a week or so, ignore most feedback about class balance, and then a couple weeks after it goes live, go back to focusing on releasing bits and pieces of information about the next update, with very little dialogue about the content they just released ever occurring. ...And this makes it feel like the developers have no real vision or direction for the game's future.

Emphasis added

Wow that is so spot on. ZOS, you are getting a very clear message from so many members of our community, here is another burst of truth.

Nestor wrote: »

But the community impression is, developers don't listen to the players, particularly on the PTS. Which makes us wonder, is the PTS a test environment or a preview environment? It seems more a marketing tool than a development tool designed to make the game as good as it could be.

@ColoursYouHave @Nestor Perfectly said. @ZOS_GinaBruno this is how we feel. I 100% agree this is how the community feels. Like by the time something is posted on the PTS, its already final, its the official ZOS decision, Daddy ZOS knows what's best for us and its too late to change it. Yes you can make minor tweaks but every time, the direction ZOS takes with PvP, class balance and anything seems SO FAR REMOVED from anything we have been discussing in balance threads up until PTS.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The team definitely reads the threads and posts during a PTS testing cycle and takes your feedback into account. It can be hard to see in the cases where feedback doesn't seem to get implemented, but there are reasons. Sometimes it's because an idea just wouldn't mesh with another aspect of the game in the grander scope. Sometimes it's just due to lack of time.

Let's look at those last two bits.

Sometimes it's because an idea just wouldn't mesh with another aspect of the game in the grander scope: I feel this. Here is the issue. I don't know who you have playtesting PvP but I can almost garantee they don't play the game like we play the game. They don't run the same builds, don't have the same theorycrafting discussions, don't run into the same class problems. Your playtesters are NOT in tune with the community. Because of that, its no wonder our ideas don't mesh with theirs.

Here's an example: Tower farming and removing resource tower doors Most people looked down on tower farmers but it wasn't the biggest issue in the game. In fact, it was just a symptom of a greater issue of zerging, player congestion around the emperor keeps, and lack of real incentives in PvP other than AP farming. There was NEVER a strong community push to remove doors from resource towers. That suggestion did NOT come from the community in any significant strength. Tower farms were easy to break up with the right strategies. Did your playtesters get farmed at towers? Maybe they should run with one of our groups and we could have shown them how to bust tower farms and while we were doing it, explain much bigger issues in cyrodiil that need attention.

Sometimes it's just due to lack of time. Yes. Lack of time. Don't you think the root cause of that lack of time is the fact that the PTS isn't released until a few weeks before launch? That means all the major balance decisions and skill redesigns have already been completed. Do you have time to completely recreate a whole skill, make new animations before live after we test it on PTS and find out its completely useless? (like resto pancea)? of course not. The reason there is no time to respond to feedback from PTS other than minor tweaks is because of the way you set up the schedule!!!!!!!!!!!! This is a self-inflicted problem Gina.

I understand that you can't completely devote yourself to community feedback but the entire setup and ZOS modus operandi makes it very difficult for us to have a responsive dialogue that results in community inspired implemented changes.

Vorcil · December 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

To me, more important than the amount of communication is the quality of communication. ZOS' primary form of communication seems to be keep everything a big secret with bits and pieces of information thrown in to keep us interested, release something new, then rarely talk about it again.

For instance, we've received bits and pieces of information about balance changes coming in the next major update. I can almost guarantee that ZOS is going to be fairly quiet until they eventually come out with a big announcement about the next update, have it on the PTS within a week or so, ignore most feedback about class balance, and then a couple weeks after it goes live, go back to focusing on releasing bits and pieces of information about the next update, with very little dialogue about the content they just released ever occurring. They will tell us what they are doing every couple months, but give nearly no explanation as to why they're doing it. And this makes it feel like the developers have no real vision or direction for the game's future.

What I would really like to see is more dialogue between major updates. This doesn't mean you need to tell us everything you're doing, but talking about what you would like to see moving forward would go a long way towards making the community feel like they share a common goal with the developers. For example, rather than simply telling us you're going to change some of the proc sets, you could have Eric Wrobel start a thread discussing his thoughts on proc sets, including things like why he thinks proc sets may need to be changed, what types of changes he is considering for proc sets (again, we don't need to hear exactly what you want to do with a specific set, but rather a more general statement like "We would like to see proc sets do less burst damage, but we are also considering making them proc less reliably"), what potential changes wouldn't be good for proc sets, etc. What this does is not only provide the community with the sense that the developers have a long term vision for the game's future that they are actively working towards, but it also opens up a channel of communication between the community and developers where both parties can express their thoughts and concerns about a specific topic. The developers don't always need to agree with the community's suggestions, and they shouldn't be expected too, but simply explaining why they don't think an idea will work effectively would go a very long way towards easing relations between the developers and the community.

A great example of this is when Blizzard released a new Hearthstone expansion (for those who are unfamiliar with Hearthstone, I'll keep this simple enough that the only thing you need to know about Hearthstone is that it is a card game where players choose cards based on their class) that gave the worst class in the game nothing but bad cards, with one of them being arguably the worst card in the game. After players expressed their frustration with the decision, the lead developer, Ben Brode, made a video for his "Designer Insights" YouTube Series (another great PR idea for ZOS; developers periodically releasing brief 5-10 minute videos discussing popular topics within the community) talking about their decision to release those cards in that expansion. In the video he discussed that in hindsight they realized they made a mistake. He explained why they made that mistake, in that they had a poor read on the community's feelings towards balance, and while they were well aware that the cards they released weren't necessarily "good" cards, they did serve a purpose of being "fun" cards for people to make creative, though non-competitive decks. He also discussed what they are going to do to fix the mistake, where he explained that they have a larger plan to improve the class that couldn't be implemented immediately, but they were going to make some smaller short-term changes to improve things in the mean time. And while some people naturally still had their criticisms of the developer's decisions, it helped ease the tension between the developers and the community massively, where even many of those who remained critical of their decisions were still at least somewhat content that the developers acknowledged that there was an issue, explained why they made their decisions, and provided information on how they are going to improve things moving forward.

In short, what I really want to say is that ZOS needs to talk to us, not at us. Don't just tell us what you are going to do, tell us why you are going to do it. If you don't think our ideas will be effective, tell us why they won't be effective. Do something to give us some sort of indication that there is a bigger vision for the game's future than just taking it one patch at a time.

Wow, thanks for writing out your thoughts! All well said, and totally understand where you're coming from. As mentioned on an earlier page, we do have a much larger plan about when and how we release information when it comes to major updates; there are many internal and external parties involved.

For "smaller" things that aren't necessarily a major update - like balance changes - we typically prefer to wait until we have our plans squared away to share them with everyone for a number of reasons. First, it obviously takes a lot of time to figure out what exactly we're going to be changing and how it will impact the entire game; there's a ton of discussion that occurs across different departments. In figuring out how we're going to change something, we also look at different sources of data including hard numbers from our BI department, feedback from forums and in-game reports, internal playtests and discussions, and more. This is all a pretty fast moving train with things changing by the minute in cases where we're figuring out how to solve a problem, and requesting a developer keep a thread updated is time spent away from implementing the actual work. The time spent making a post may seem inconsequential, but it does take time to type out replies (hell, the time it's taken to write this one has been well over 15 minutes so far, but I also get interrupted a lot ).

In the past, we've tried to give more insight and information on ESO Live. We'll continue to try and do that when we pick the show back up next year. We'll also have some discussions internally about creating a "here's why we did this thing" either as a forum thread, or even a few lines in the patch notes. How's that sound?

Wow firstly, thank you for taking the time to respond to the aforementioned concerns.

It does sound like there are a lot of politics and different channels for ideas and work to get through before implementation. It is great that you have explained this. However, as @Nestor the community ambassador has said:

Nestor wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[We'll also have some discussions internally about creating a "here's why we did this thing" either as a forum thread, or even a few lines in the patch notes. How's that sound?

In some kind of Developer Discussion where the Developer actually participates in the discussion would be a good place for this. It could be in patch notes or a thread.

Perhaps in the feedback threads in the PTS, developers could chime in with thoughts and philosophies. Right now it just seems that people are yelling at a wall.

and if indeed as you @ZOS_GinaBruno have said 'In figuring out how we're going to change something, we also look at different sources of data including hard numbers from our BI department, feedback from forums...'
When coming to the forum feedback, it may be good practice, that, developers who are reading the threads are posting something simple like; 'I have seen some really good ideas in this thread, which I will be bringing up for discussion in our next meeting about X'.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

In the past, we've tried to give more insight and information on ESO Live. We'll continue to try and do that when we pick the show back up next year. We'll also have some discussions internally about creating a "here's why we did this thing" either as a forum thread, or even a few lines in the patch notes. How's that sound?

That would be bloody fantastic

I feel like that's a significant, yet simple change to improving the transparency interface between palyers and the game, without taking too much time away from development.

Lets make ESO great again;

Vorcil · December 2016

Also @ZOS_GinaBruno, with the recent housing information, you can see where it would be valuable to have asked for feedback prior to the official info release.

Similar to the 'News & Website Article Discussions' forum section where only developers can post threads, a 'Feedback Discussions' format where you ask for feedback on specifics would be invaluable; e.g., creating a 'What would you like to see in housing' thread such that when you do go through all the different development avenues you don't have to now sift through all the many many threads in General Discussions (and whatever other forums where related forum posts come up) in order to find 'player/forum feedback';

As an example, I know there will probably be 'politics' around asking specific questions in such a forum; such as 'housing inventory/storage feedback', that would instantiate an expectation in players and an entitlement to having housing storage, and if at such a time the developers are like 'This feature would extend the development time by several weeks which we don't have the resources for' you'll get a lot of retaliation from the playerbase. But if you word it in such a way to generalize the question 'What would you like to see in Housing' then you'll get the feedback you need from both sides of the coin / all caveats related to the concerns of the playerbase.

Having a specific forum, for specific feedbacks that only staff can create threads in would do a lot to localize the feedback process. And you get all this feedback for free!

Just an idea

leandro.800ub17_ESO · December 2016

If you are working on a new version for ESO Live you could open a space for comments on the 3 most hot topics of the week in the forums and have some discussion on them (not specifics), on what is bings extracted out of those conversations.

Cryptical · December 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

To me, more important than the amount of communication is the quality of communication. ZOS' primary form of communication seems to be keep everything a big secret with bits and pieces of information thrown in to keep us interested, release something new, then rarely talk about it again.

For instance, we've received bits and pieces of information about balance changes coming in the next major update. I can almost guarantee that ZOS is going to be fairly quiet until they eventually come out with a big announcement about the next update, have it on the PTS within a week or so, ignore most feedback about class balance, and then a couple weeks after it goes live, go back to focusing on releasing bits and pieces of information about the next update, with very little dialogue about the content they just released ever occurring. They will tell us what they are doing every couple months, but give nearly no explanation as to why they're doing it. And this makes it feel like the developers have no real vision or direction for the game's future.

What I would really like to see is more dialogue between major updates. This doesn't mean you need to tell us everything you're doing, but talking about what you would like to see moving forward would go a long way towards making the community feel like they share a common goal with the developers. For example, rather than simply telling us you're going to change some of the proc sets, you could have Eric Wrobel start a thread discussing his thoughts on proc sets, including things like why he thinks proc sets may need to be changed, what types of changes he is considering for proc sets (again, we don't need to hear exactly what you want to do with a specific set, but rather a more general statement like "We would like to see proc sets do less burst damage, but we are also considering making them proc less reliably"), what potential changes wouldn't be good for proc sets, etc. What this does is not only provide the community with the sense that the developers have a long term vision for the game's future that they are actively working towards, but it also opens up a channel of communication between the community and developers where both parties can express their thoughts and concerns about a specific topic. The developers don't always need to agree with the community's suggestions, and they shouldn't be expected too, but simply explaining why they don't think an idea will work effectively would go a very long way towards easing relations between the developers and the community.

A great example of this is when Blizzard released a new Hearthstone expansion (for those who are unfamiliar with Hearthstone, I'll keep this simple enough that the only thing you need to know about Hearthstone is that it is a card game where players choose cards based on their class) that gave the worst class in the game nothing but bad cards, with one of them being arguably the worst card in the game. After players expressed their frustration with the decision, the lead developer, Ben Brode, made a video for his "Designer Insights" YouTube Series (another great PR idea for ZOS; developers periodically releasing brief 5-10 minute videos discussing popular topics within the community) talking about their decision to release those cards in that expansion. In the video he discussed that in hindsight they realized they made a mistake. He explained why they made that mistake, in that they had a poor read on the community's feelings towards balance, and while they were well aware that the cards they released weren't necessarily "good" cards, they did serve a purpose of being "fun" cards for people to make creative, though non-competitive decks. He also discussed what they are going to do to fix the mistake, where he explained that they have a larger plan to improve the class that couldn't be implemented immediately, but they were going to make some smaller short-term changes to improve things in the mean time. And while some people naturally still had their criticisms of the developer's decisions, it helped ease the tension between the developers and the community massively, where even many of those who remained critical of their decisions were still at least somewhat content that the developers acknowledged that there was an issue, explained why they made their decisions, and provided information on how they are going to improve things moving f
]

Wow, thanks for writing out your thoughts! All well said, and totally understand where you're coming from. As mentioned on an earlier page, we do have a much larger plan about when and how we release information when it comes to major updates; there are many internal and external parties involved.

For "smaller" things that aren't necessarily a major update - like balance changes - we typically prefer to wait until we have our plans squared away to share them with everyone for a number of reasons. First, it obviously takes a lot of time to figure out what exactly we're going to be changing and how it will impact the entire game; there's a ton of discussion that occurs across different departments. In figuring out how we're going to change something, we also look at different sources of data including hard numbers from our BI department, feedback from forums and in-game reports, internal playtests and discussions, and more. This is all a pretty fast moving train with things changing by the minute in cases where we're figuring out how to solve a problem, and requesting a developer keep a thread updated is time spent away from implementing the actual work. The time spent making a post may seem inconsequential, but it does take time to type out replies (hell, the time it's taken to write this one has been well over 15 minutes so far, but I also get interrupted a lot ).

In the past, we've tried to give more insight and information on ESO Live. We'll continue to try and do that when we pick the show back up next year. We'll also have some discussions internally about creating a "here's why we did this thing" either as a forum thread, or even a few lines in the patch notes. How's that sound?

This, from Gina, is the gold standard. In it, she is a person rather than a disembodied detached forum account.

I think it comes down to voice. We players are people, and we want to talk to people. Corporate messages almost always take the form of some constructed legal-approved impersonal public relations release.

I suspect that if we wanted to interact with an impersonal automated response system, we would be seeking out Chet.

Cryptical · December 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[We'll also have some discussions internally about creating a "here's why we did this thing" either as a forum thread, or even a few lines in the patch notes. How's that sound?

In some kind of Developer Discussion where the Developer actually participates in the discussion would be a good place for this. It could be in patch notes or a thread.

But the community impression is, developers don't listen to the players, particularly on the PTS. Which makes us wonder, is the PTS a test environment or a preview environment? It seems more a marketing tool than a development tool designed to make the game as good as it could be. Perhaps in the feedback threads in the PTS, developers could chime in with thoughts and philosophies. Right now it just seems that people are yelling at a wall.

The team definitely reads the threads and posts during a PTS testing cycle and takes your feedback into account. It can be hard to see in the cases where feedback doesn't seem to get implemented, but there are reasons. Sometimes it's because an idea just wouldn't mesh with another aspect of the game in the grander scope. Sometimes it's just due to lack of time.

A simple "Sorry, but that isn't going to cooperate nicely with the way people expect things to work from other elements of the game, so that idea will have to go to the side for now. If it can be introduced in another way that doesn't seem confusing and contradictory, then we will be able to move forward with it."
...
"Sorry, but that idea just isn't going to be easy and simple enough to get in this time without pushing the whole update back. Sometimes the ship just has to set sail, this idea will have to come later."

jwboudreau1b16_ESO · December 2016

Cryptical wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[We'll also have some discussions internally about creating a "here's why we did this thing" either as a forum thread, or even a few lines in the patch notes. How's that sound?

In some kind of Developer Discussion where the Developer actually participates in the discussion would be a good place for this. It could be in patch notes or a thread.

But the community impression is, developers don't listen to the players, particularly on the PTS. Which makes us wonder, is the PTS a test environment or a preview environment? It seems more a marketing tool than a development tool designed to make the game as good as it could be. Perhaps in the feedback threads in the PTS, developers could chime in with thoughts and philosophies. Right now it just seems that people are yelling at a wall.

The team definitely reads the threads and posts during a PTS testing cycle and takes your feedback into account. It can be hard to see in the cases where feedback doesn't seem to get implemented, but there are reasons. Sometimes it's because an idea just wouldn't mesh with another aspect of the game in the grander scope. Sometimes it's just due to lack of time.

A simple "Sorry, but that isn't going to cooperate nicely with the way people expect things to work from other elements of the game, so that idea will have to go to the side for now. If it can be introduced in another way that doesn't seem confusing and contradictory, then we will be able to move forward with it."
...
"Sorry, but that idea just isn't going to be easy and simple enough to get in this time without pushing the whole update back. Sometimes the ship just has to set sail, this idea will have to come later."

I think that everyone here has to understand that there aren't 2 or 3 items of feedback being provided during the PTS runs - there are many. Answering every suggestion and question would be overwhelming and these same people who the community are expecting a response from are the ones who are quickly trying to fix what isn't working and reviewing all of the suggestions coming in. As you'll notice, there are several PTS patches released during this period because of player feedback.

Also, keep in mind that although I'm sure the developers appreciate content suggestions, the primary goal of the PTS is to address bugs to ensure a smooth launch on Live.

Regarding the transparency, ZOS has been the most transparent developer I've seen. The ESO Live segments and active forum responses are indicative of this. They cannot answer everything, though. There is of course room for improvement, as there always is, but reading this thread, you would think that ZOS has never answered a question before.

I would love more ESO Lives in the future as they seemed to have winded down in the latter half of the year, but I think they're doing a pretty great job and we're constantly seeing player feedback incorporated into the game, even if ZOS didn't have the time to acknowledge the request/suggestion.

Vorcil · December 2016

jwboudreau1b16_ESO wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[We'll also have some discussions internally about creating a "here's why we did this thing" either as a forum thread, or even a few lines in the patch notes. How's that sound?

In some kind of Developer Discussion where the Developer actually participates in the discussion would be a good place for this. It could be in patch notes or a thread.

But the community impression is, developers don't listen to the players, particularly on the PTS. Which makes us wonder, is the PTS a test environment or a preview environment? It seems more a marketing tool than a development tool designed to make the game as good as it could be. Perhaps in the feedback threads in the PTS, developers could chime in with thoughts and philosophies. Right now it just seems that people are yelling at a wall.

The team definitely reads the threads and posts during a PTS testing cycle and takes your feedback into account. It can be hard to see in the cases where feedback doesn't seem to get implemented, but there are reasons. Sometimes it's because an idea just wouldn't mesh with another aspect of the game in the grander scope. Sometimes it's just due to lack of time.

A simple "Sorry, but that isn't going to cooperate nicely with the way people expect things to work from other elements of the game, so that idea will have to go to the side for now. If it can be introduced in another way that doesn't seem confusing and contradictory, then we will be able to move forward with it."
...
"Sorry, but that idea just isn't going to be easy and simple enough to get in this time without pushing the whole update back. Sometimes the ship just has to set sail, this idea will have to come later."

I think that everyone here has to understand that there aren't 2 or 3 items of feedback being provided during the PTS runs - there are many. Answering every suggestion and question would be overwhelming and these same people who the community are expecting a response from are the ones who are quickly trying to fix what isn't working and reviewing all of the suggestions coming in. As you'll notice, there are several PTS patches released during this period because of player feedback.

Also, keep in mind that although I'm sure the developers appreciate content suggestions, the primary goal of the PTS is to address bugs to ensure a smooth launch on Live.

Regarding the transparency, ZOS has been the most transparent developer I've seen. The ESO Live segments and active forum responses are indicative of this. They cannot answer everything, though. There is of course room for improvement, as there always is, but reading this thread, you would think that ZOS has never answered a question before.

I would love more ESO Lives in the future as they seemed to have winded down in the latter half of the year, but I think they're doing a pretty great job and we're constantly seeing player feedback incorporated into the game, even if ZOS didn't have the time to acknowledge the request/suggestion.

ZOS fanboying will get you no where.

You fail to understand the crux of the issue, or show any ability for critical thinking.

ZOS is not transparent at all. They have acknowledged this fact, and have explained that it is a matter of inhouse politics, which is completely understandable.

I suggest read the thread first before jumping on the fanboy bandwagon.

The PTS is a failure in implementation for a user - developer feedback driven software development process.
What the PTS is, is a smoke and mirror implementation for players to feel like their actual feedback is being considered.
not one feature in ESO has come from user feedback. All features come from a 'data' driven development feedback style of development. They track the data from PTS stats and ingame stats, and make development decisions based on those results.

There is zero communication between ZOS and players when it comes to the future of this game.
What they say goes.

The future of this game comes from data; and whatever is profitable becomes the future.

The capitalistic mentality of this company has morphed ESO into the behemoth of player abuse that it is today; this is why that anyone with a shread of ethics in them has left this company.

/thread

JKorr · December 2016

jwboudreau1b16_ESO wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[We'll also have some discussions internally about creating a "here's why we did this thing" either as a forum thread, or even a few lines in the patch notes. How's that sound?

In some kind of Developer Discussion where the Developer actually participates in the discussion would be a good place for this. It could be in patch notes or a thread.

But the community impression is, developers don't listen to the players, particularly on the PTS. Which makes us wonder, is the PTS a test environment or a preview environment? It seems more a marketing tool than a development tool designed to make the game as good as it could be. Perhaps in the feedback threads in the PTS, developers could chime in with thoughts and philosophies. Right now it just seems that people are yelling at a wall.

The team definitely reads the threads and posts during a PTS testing cycle and takes your feedback into account. It can be hard to see in the cases where feedback doesn't seem to get implemented, but there are reasons. Sometimes it's because an idea just wouldn't mesh with another aspect of the game in the grander scope. Sometimes it's just due to lack of time.

A simple "Sorry, but that isn't going to cooperate nicely with the way people expect things to work from other elements of the game, so that idea will have to go to the side for now. If it can be introduced in another way that doesn't seem confusing and contradictory, then we will be able to move forward with it."
...
"Sorry, but that idea just isn't going to be easy and simple enough to get in this time without pushing the whole update back. Sometimes the ship just has to set sail, this idea will have to come later."

I think that everyone here has to understand that there aren't 2 or 3 items of feedback being provided during the PTS runs - there are many. Answering every suggestion and question would be overwhelming and these same people who the community are expecting a response from are the ones who are quickly trying to fix what isn't working and reviewing all of the suggestions coming in. As you'll notice, there are several PTS patches released during this period because of player feedback.

Also, keep in mind that although I'm sure the developers appreciate content suggestions, the primary goal of the PTS is to address bugs to ensure a smooth launch on Live.

Regarding the transparency, ZOS has been the most transparent developer I've seen. The ESO Live segments and active forum responses are indicative of this. They cannot answer everything, though. There is of course room for improvement, as there always is, but reading this thread, you would think that ZOS has never answered a question before.

I would love more ESO Lives in the future as they seemed to have winded down in the latter half of the year, but I think they're doing a pretty great job and we're constantly seeing player feedback incorporated into the game, even if ZOS didn't have the time to acknowledge the request/suggestion.

They might have used to be. Not so much now. Have you noticed the "active forum responses" are usually a response to what is a large "fire" that needs to be put out? Posts about how the game is experiencing rollbacks, disconnects, can't disconnect, servers down and other happy stuff they will respond to. People posting about how CS is ignoring multiple tickets might get a response. I've watched a few of the ESO Live segments, and have noted how well they've learned to dance around actual answers, even if no one was asking about a definite date for anything. They don't respond to questions about the game unless there is a large, obvious problem that they can't ignore.

Fine. Set a standard for feedback for some kind of "real" reply for the pts.

Let's say a thread hits over 100 pages of mostly negative issues pts testers have found with whatever the test was. Feedback that is more than simply "This sucks." and has a lot of constructive critical suggestions about how it could be made to be at least marginally less sucky. That should have a little bit more of a reply than "yeah, we hear you. We're gonna make some changes, but we won't put the new version on the pts because we don't have time. Everything is going to be sunshine and rainbows and happy little clouds."

Two little changes for the clown crates after over a 100 pages of negative feedback and constructive criticism doesn't mean they are "listening" and "transparent". The simple truth that they clown crates were going to be implemented no matter what would have been "transparent". And wouldn't have given the illusion that anything reported on the pts is actually useful. Matter of the clown crates aside, so many exploits, like the banker assistant and using a survey multiple times was reported. Until it totally blew up on the live game, nothing was said, nothing was done.

AnviOfVai · December 2016

I don't think I have ever seen ZOS reply in a thread so much as they have in this one, at least it shows they are reading the threads

The new year is coming, time for change and improvements....

Always watching/stalking/hoping

JKorr · December 2016

And the replies have stopped. No more fires.

Ooohhhh. Look over there, SHINY!!!!

Announcing something new and distracting.......So what about the housing, huh?