Gems can be extracted from unwanted items obtained from the crate. I bought a 16-crate deal and now have about 450 gems - more than enough to get a top-shelf storm mount.

Bouldercleave wrote: »

EZgoin76 wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

EZgoin76 wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

EZgoin76 wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I only bought 4 crates at 400 crowns each. Each crate's contents value on the crown store far exceeded the 400 crowns so I can not call it a rip off or a scam as long as you don't count on getting that one thing you have your heart set on every time. I was lucky and got the mount I wanted in the 4th crate, but was not disappointed in the useful poisons, pets, tattoos, hats and mimic stones I received in the other crates. In other words I more than got my monies worth.

So as long as you don't actually want anything and just feel the need to spend crowns on who-cares-what, they're a great deal, but if you actually want something they're a total scam, got it.

That is the complete and total BS way of understanding what they are. It can't be a scam because YOU ALL KNOW EXACTLY what they are. And ZOS explained how they work. They aren't forced upon anyone. You make the decision if you are going to give it a shot. There is no scam.

The scam is putting this stuff in crates to begin with instead of just selling things outright in the store.

We know what they are but not what we're getting. Huge difference there. Get it?

Yes I get it. It's called paying for a chance to win a mystery prize. Which from the tidal wave of outrage (at least on this thread from about 5-6 of you) seems to tell me you all knew that when you decided to move your mouse around the screen and click whatever it was that you had to click to pay for a shot at a mystery prize.

And from my opinion if this case were to lets say go in front of the Honorable Judge Judy, you guys wouldn't have a case (the case being that you claim ZOS is doing people dirty) and it would be dismissed. And she would tell you to protest all you want.

Lol No apparently you don't get it. You completely disregard the first part to post some nonsense.

ZOS should have never made crown crates and offered everything in store, straight up so people know exactly what they are getting.

Gambling for a chance at something is a scam. I can't make it any clearer than that.

Edit: I have never and will never buy a crown crate. I sub and buy cosmetics when I know what I'm getting.

You can't make it clearer, but you are wrong.

Bouldercleave wrote: »

EZgoin76 wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

EZgoin76 wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I only bought 4 crates at 400 crowns each. Each crate's contents value on the crown store far exceeded the 400 crowns so I can not call it a rip off or a scam as long as you don't count on getting that one thing you have your heart set on every time. I was lucky and got the mount I wanted in the 4th crate, but was not disappointed in the useful poisons, pets, tattoos, hats and mimic stones I received in the other crates. In other words I more than got my monies worth.

So as long as you don't actually want anything and just feel the need to spend crowns on who-cares-what, they're a great deal, but if you actually want something they're a total scam, got it.

That is the complete and total BS way of understanding what they are. It can't be a scam because YOU ALL KNOW EXACTLY what they are. And ZOS explained how they work. They aren't forced upon anyone. You make the decision if you are going to give it a shot. There is no scam.

The scam is putting this stuff in crates to begin with instead of just selling things outright in the store.

We know what they are but not what we're getting. Huge difference there. Get it?

Yes I get it. It's called paying for a chance to win a mystery prize. Which from the tidal wave of outrage (at least on this thread from about 5-6 of you) seems to tell me you all knew that when you decided to move your mouse around the screen and click whatever it was that you had to click to pay for a shot at a mystery prize.

And from my opinion if this case were to lets say go in front of the Honorable Judge Judy, you guys wouldn't have a case (the case being that you claim ZOS is doing people dirty) and it would be dismissed. And she would tell you to protest all you want.

Lol No apparently you don't get it. You completely disregard the first part to post some nonsense.

ZOS should have never made crown crates and offered everything in store, straight up so people know exactly what they are getting.

Gambling for a chance at something is a scam. I can't make it any clearer than that.

Edit: I have never and will never buy a crown crate. I sub and buy cosmetics when I know what I'm getting.

You can't make it clearer, but you are wrong.

@Bouldercleave Maybe you could elaborate as to why I'm wrong instead of trying to be a smart@$$ and failing miserably.

I would be happy to elaborate:

Gambling for a chance at something is a scam. This statement is wrong. Gambling for a cahance of something is the definition of gambling... They are NOT scamming anyone. No deception has taken place.

I wasn't trying to be a smart ass, I sincerely and from the bottom of my heart think that you are wrong.

Research lock boxes. They definitely are a scam.

Sandmanninja wrote: »

Gems can be extracted from unwanted items obtained from the crate. I bought a 16-crate deal and now have about 450 gems - more than enough to get a top-shelf storm mount.

I am curious how you converted unwanted items like collectibles you don't want. Oh wait... you can't.

LOL. I don't play anymore cause the game is in a nosedive.

But it's very entertaining at work during downtime to watch all the suckers get suckered and then complain about it.

Where is the popcorn when you need it?

Ajaxduo wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

Want to make one last point before I walk away from a lot of stupid on this thread.

Devlopers simply use what is the most lucrative tactics when establishing or keeping a MMo afloat. People who say that SWTOR or ESO or any other cash shop game is dead are fooling themselves. SWTOR, ESO, STO, Neverwinter are all quite healthy and have many more years left. There will always be whales, and even avid buyers to make sure these games stay around.

New content gets developed, new items get added/rotated rinse and repeat. I spent many years working with a headhunting firm that specialized in finding talent for game developers, and I can say with some authority the reason this is happening is because it works to make a MMO as profitable as possible. Love it, hate it, it doesn't matter as long as developers keep adding items and halfway decent content none of these games are going anywhere.

Your choice is simple, play or don't play, buy or don't buy. But rasing hell about it is going to do Jack and "Shirt" to change a business model that works much better than everything for one sub fee.

...And your choice here is simple to, read or don't read, post or don't post. It's a discussion.

Really? It comes across more like a lecture to me.

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

I'd love to see what logical grounded people from outside this video game universe think about all the arguments. I have a hunch it wouldn't be too pro hardcore anti crown crate.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the average person does not wish to gamble when making purchases in the real world -- especially if purchases of similar products in the past did not necessitate a gamble.

Take clothes shopping, for instance. If I said to a friend: "Okay, so you know how you bought a nice blouse for $30 last month? Here's a collection of similar blouses, plus some random BS you don't want. See a blouse you like? Great! It's technically worth $30, like that other blouse you bought, BUT... Now you only have a chance to get that blouse. You could spend $4 and maybe get the blouse if you're lucky (most likely not though, LULZ). You could also spend the exact same amount of money you used to spend on blouses and end up getting a bunch of sweaters and hats you hate. The good news? You can trade in that BS (but only if you get duplicates and socks, LULZ) for another form of currency that will go towards the blouse you actually want. To ensure you absolutely have enough of this currency to get the blouse you want, you may need to spend hundreds of dollars. ISN'T THIS GREAT?"

That friend would LAUGH.

Because an average person doesn't wish to gamble.... Doesn't mean the average logical person would demand that ZOS change their decision to sell certain cosmetics through a slot machine. The average person would choose not to partake if they so decided. Nor would the average person agree that ZOS needs to bend to the will of those that want crown crates gone. That's the limb I am on.

Wrong, the average person will simply take their money elsewhere and thereby forcing the company to reconsider. Unfortunately that doesn't work for MMOs...

JimT722 wrote: »

Also many would wonder why does mmorpg's have real money gambling? Who thought the video game industry should have this? In rpg's? So you can role play as a gambler with no chance of winning money?

I'd venture a guess that it's because MMOs in particular (and video games in general) have the potential to attract people who may be more prone to completionist and/or addictive behaviour. Someone somewhere realized "hey, if we can get people to spend years playing the same repetitive content over and over again for the thrill of getting a rare loot drop or completing all achievements, then we can get them to gamble hundreds for a cool mount they can't get through other means."

An interesting thing about this article is that the author suggests that because video games involve skill, rather than random rewards, gamblers and gamers are vastly different people. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201202/video-game-addiction-does-it-occur-if-so-why As we all know, though, MMOs have traditionally relied on RNG rewards to keep players logging in, so... I'd say the bean-counters made the obvious connection to gambling.

Suter1972 wrote: »

Thanks for the sensible and great breakdown. First decent posts ive read in a long time and it makes for a much better debate than the mud slinging on other posts.

I get the impression that if everything is just available in say a crown store archive then the problem would go away?

But would the against crowd actually buy from the crown store?

These points have been raised and elaborated countless of times already... On nearly every page. It's just that you were too busy telling others to "just move on for christs sake" and scoff at the people that argue crown crates, trying to censor the thread like so many do. And then you blame others for fighting and that the thread is too toxic. This is the kind of behavior that makes it impossible to have any constructive discussions.

Of course when these arguments do get noticed it's always the "you don't have to buy them / ZoS is allowed to do this / if you don't like it, leave" which doesn't answer anything. On repeat, over and over again. Even now they discuss terms like deception which completely circumvents the topic and it's criticism.

To answer your questions: "yes" and "mostly yes". I assume most are in the "against crowd" exactly because of that.

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Nyx2 wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

There you go again attempting to dictate what is what. Your endless drivel is boring and you yourself have nothing much to add other than go around telling people what they should or shouldn't be discussing.

"There you go again using arguments to reply to my personal attacks. Saying I don't contribute anything is not contributing anything either even if I'm the one involving you in this pointless talk!"

Really, this is the kind of discussion you were trying to have? I guess I will just let people continue to "argue" against me and not respond because it offends them.

You've offended no one, like the rest of us you're free to discuss what you want. However, I think you give yourself too much credit and not enough to those who are engaging on topic with yourself.

Who would that be? I've just explained what it's like to argue on this thread so surely you have not taken a good look at them. People contentiously make claims and when I ask for reasons or arguments I get responses like "we don't owe you anything". Well, then why bother me? Especially when they come here to question our criticism or try to ridicule it. That's just not how it works and a lot of this could've been avoided.

@Kronz

Sorry, have to tag you hear to answer your questions because your thread was too similar to others to be allowed to live.

---

Gambling boxes are a pretty big deal, yeah, even though they don't have P2W items in them. There are a bunch of separate but interconnected problems with what's going on. First, many people, myself included, are more than happy to support ZOS and buy cosmetics because we like them and they are available for direct purchase. With the introduction of gambling boxes, we can no longer actually purchase what we want/look how we want, because more than half the cosmetic content is locked up in RNG mechanics. For a game that sold itself on having amazing customization options, this is a very big issue. Cosmetics are so important to the game that when they went B2P it was slated to be one of the major moneymakers, the other being purchase of game copies and optional subscriptions. So while they don't provide combat advantage, cosmetics are a truly integral part of the game experience for a huge number of players. If they weren't why would they be monetized at all?

Now, because the prizes for the gamble boxes are distributed randomly, there is no actual guarantee that you'll ever get the thing you want unless you're willing to keep buying until you either get the item you came for or (much more likely) you get enough gems from duplicates or consumable turn-ins. This will, on average, leave you with a bunch (and I mean a WHOLE bunch) of stuff you don't want, plus maybe the thing you did want, provided you sank enough money into the system. That is completely bananas. This is like force-bundling cable TV in with internet service, except you get a random selection of channels, mostly static, and a chance at internet service. And you have to keep buying the package over and over until you finally get that internet service. Sure, maybe you happen to also like one of the channels you got, but it would have been infinitely better to have been able to make that choice yourself and buy it directly. And, again, you still might not have ever gotten internet access unless you bought enough duplicate channels or turned in enough static.

Let's contrast this with how it should work: direct purchase. Maybe you like the Atronach Camel but not the Atronach Horse. You buy the Atronach Camel. It was expensive, but you got exactly what you want, and everyone spends the same price for it. Sure, nobody got it for 400 Crowns, but nobody failed to get it despite spending money. Everyone is having a good time! Maybe you have been waiting since PTS to get that one Argonian body markings and hair style set. You buy it! Wow, what a system!

It's just so obviously better to have a direct purchase system than this RNG nearly-infinite money sink of dubious reward.

Kronz wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

@Kronz

Sorry, have to tag you hear to answer your questions because your thread was too similar to others to be allowed to live.

---

Gambling boxes are a pretty big deal, yeah, even though they don't have P2W items in them. There are a bunch of separate but interconnected problems with what's going on. First, many people, myself included, are more than happy to support ZOS and buy cosmetics because we like them and they are available for direct purchase. With the introduction of gambling boxes, we can no longer actually purchase what we want/look how we want, because more than half the cosmetic content is locked up in RNG mechanics. For a game that sold itself on having amazing customization options, this is a very big issue. Cosmetics are so important to the game that when they went B2P it was slated to be one of the major moneymakers, the other being purchase of game copies and optional subscriptions. So while they don't provide combat advantage, cosmetics are a truly integral part of the game experience for a huge number of players. If they weren't why would they be monetized at all?

Now, because the prizes for the gamble boxes are distributed randomly, there is no actual guarantee that you'll ever get the thing you want unless you're willing to keep buying until you either get the item you came for or (much more likely) you get enough gems from duplicates or consumable turn-ins. This will, on average, leave you with a bunch (and I mean a WHOLE bunch) of stuff you don't want, plus maybe the thing you did want, provided you sank enough money into the system. That is completely bananas. This is like force-bundling cable TV in with internet service, except you get a random selection of channels, mostly static, and a chance at internet service. And you have to keep buying the package over and over until you finally get that internet service. Sure, maybe you happen to also like one of the channels you got, but it would have been infinitely better to have been able to make that choice yourself and buy it directly. And, again, you still might not have ever gotten internet access unless you bought enough duplicate channels or turned in enough static.

Let's contrast this with how it should work: direct purchase. Maybe you like the Atronach Camel but not the Atronach Horse. You buy the Atronach Camel. It was expensive, but you got exactly what you want, and everyone spends the same price for it. Sure, nobody got it for 400 Crowns, but nobody failed to get it despite spending money. Everyone is having a good time! Maybe you have been waiting since PTS to get that one Argonian body markings and hair style set. You buy it! Wow, what a system!

It's just so obviously better to have a direct purchase system than this RNG nearly-infinite money sink of dubious reward.

I appreciate your thoughtful response and respect your opinion. Thank you for taking the time to tag me here. I was surprised they blocked my thread as it was in support of them. I still feel the same way as in my OP but have a better understanding of why people are upset.

Yeah the mod team is pretty consistent and generally impartial, even if I sometimes disagree regarding how unique a topic needs to be to warrant its own thread.

Sooo.. Anyone want to play ESO?

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

How is what I said wrong? And you just explained the free market, which is exactly what i been saying throughout this thread pages and pages back now.

@Publius_Scipio

If your local grocery store stops selling the kind of apples you like and instead sells only mystery boxes that might contain that apple variety or might contain some other variety or might not even contain apples at all, you would likely be upset. The option that the store presents to you is a take-it-or-leave-it option, and you'd probably just leave it. Go shop at another grocery store in town. That's how the free market works. Am I correct in assuming that, so far, we are in agreement?

Now, what if you're in a small town, and that is the only store that sells fruit? There's a butcher, but he sells only meat. There's a fishmonger, but he doesn't sell fruit either. What if your one and only source of fruit in this small town decides to do this? The thing about the free market is that it assumes that both sides have a full array of options. And if we're talking about buying fruit, there is almost always more than one option if you don't like what one store is doing, so you can take your business elsewhere and let the free market sort itself out.

But that choice doesn't really exist. Sure, there are other games you could go to. But they're not the same--it's not the same setting, not the same people, not the same mechanics, etc. You won't be invested in another game the same way as this one. If the only fruit seller in town starts pulling shenanigans like that, I could just stop shopping there and only buy from the butcher. They're similar (if all you care about is having something to eat), but very different and most would not consider them to be viable substitutes.

In cases like this, free market ideals are inapplicable because a key requirement--that there exist interchangeable substitutes--doesn't really exist. At least not for people who care deeply about the game. So, tell me, what options do they have, except to complain and hope that ZOS will listen?

And ZOS doesn't have to do much--if all that ZOS did was offer all the Crown Crate items up for direct no-hassle purchase, 90% of the complaints would go away. They can still keep the gambling option around, for people who think gambling is fun or people who want to try their luck at getting something for cheaper. The key problem is having things that are accessible only if you jump through ridiculous hoops with no option of direct purchase.