Do not buy Crown Crates!!!

Publius_Scipio · December 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I only bought 4 crates at 400 crowns each. Each crate's contents value on the crown store far exceeded the 400 crowns so I can not call it a rip off or a scam as long as you don't count on getting that one thing you have your heart set on every time. I was lucky and got the mount I wanted in the 4th crate, but was not disappointed in the useful poisons, pets, tattoos, hats and mimic stones I received in the other crates. In other words I more than got my monies worth.

So as long as you don't actually want anything and just feel the need to spend crowns on who-cares-what, they're a great deal, but if you actually want something they're a total scam, got it.

That is the complete and total BS way of understanding what they are. It can't be a scam because YOU ALL KNOW EXACTLY what they are. And ZOS explained how they work. They aren't forced upon anyone. You make the decision if you are going to give it a shot. There is no scam.

@Publius_Scipio Wrong, they're inherently a scam because it's a method of taking money without providing value to the customer. It doesn't become not a scam under the dubious pretense that people "know what they are". The whole thing was literally created by a behaviorist to take advantage of common consumer ignorance. You know what wouldn't be a scam? Putting the items up for direct purchase. A scam isn't something forced on people, it's something that people get tricked into engaging with.

The definition of scam in the dictionary is "a dishonest scheme, a fraud". It is not dishonest because of RNG. You and everyone else know how crown crates work. And you know you there is no guarantee on what you get. How are you or anyone else being scammed? And I am really stretching myself here to understand how there is any "dubious pretense". The whole thing was created for players to try their chance at getting something they want and ZOS to make revenue. The only way I am buying your "common consumer ignorance" argument is if you can prove that ZOS did not do their part in explaining and instructing players exactly how crown crates work.

You can't call the lottery a scam.

Edit: And let me come back to comment on your first line about "providing value to the customer". The customer out of his/her own free will decides there is value in the crown crates when they decide to make the purchase. ZOS didn't force any value upon you, me, or anyone else.

Any sale of tokenized risk is inherently a scam if it can be proven that customers are ignorant regarding the nature of risk. It has been repeatedly shown that they don't. The sale of these items is not, by and large, an honest transaction by educated participants. While some might understand the nature of probability and risk, most do not. This is not to say that all of these people who don't understand will become gambling addicts, we are just talking about whether or not it's a scam. So by the above, we can indeed call the lottery a scam, same as these gambling boxes.

So while you argue along the lines of magical thinking and 'free will", it's just not supported by the facts. The cosmetic items are put there to entice people to gamble, a decision that they cannot make rationally because they don't understand the math behind it, and so we can conclude that it's all a scam. If these were available for purchase on the normal Crown Store it wouldn't be an issue, but ZOS marketing decided that it's reasonable to take people's money and not give them anything of value for it, so now here comes the pushback.

Well it's good to know how you define things. Thankfully we have laws that define things like this, so you don't go around just pointing and saying this is inherently whatever.

As far as magical thinking and free will, not supported by facts. I don't know what else to say to you about this particular topic. I sure as hell know Judge Judy wouldn't rule in your favor.

JimT722 · December 2016

disintegr8 wrote: »

Can anyone advise me what the legal age for gambling lotteries is in their country?
Does it match the 18+ for this game or is it older?

Because we all know there is nobody under 18 playing this game and as long as the legal gambling age for lottery tickets is 18, everything is fine and people can try their luck on the crates.

From what I hear regularly on PS4 voice chat, there are plenty of people well under 18.

AlienSlof · December 2016

Moltyr wrote: »

DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY!!! (unless you're super rich)

I don't intend to. Ever. I refuse to gamble. However, I am quite enjoying the variety of mounts and things that I see around. Just not prepared to gamble for them.

Recremen · December 2016

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I only bought 4 crates at 400 crowns each. Each crate's contents value on the crown store far exceeded the 400 crowns so I can not call it a rip off or a scam as long as you don't count on getting that one thing you have your heart set on every time. I was lucky and got the mount I wanted in the 4th crate, but was not disappointed in the useful poisons, pets, tattoos, hats and mimic stones I received in the other crates. In other words I more than got my monies worth.

So as long as you don't actually want anything and just feel the need to spend crowns on who-cares-what, they're a great deal, but if you actually want something they're a total scam, got it.

That is the complete and total BS way of understanding what they are. It can't be a scam because YOU ALL KNOW EXACTLY what they are. And ZOS explained how they work. They aren't forced upon anyone. You make the decision if you are going to give it a shot. There is no scam.

@Publius_Scipio Wrong, they're inherently a scam because it's a method of taking money without providing value to the customer. It doesn't become not a scam under the dubious pretense that people "know what they are". The whole thing was literally created by a behaviorist to take advantage of common consumer ignorance. You know what wouldn't be a scam? Putting the items up for direct purchase. A scam isn't something forced on people, it's something that people get tricked into engaging with.

The definition of scam in the dictionary is "a dishonest scheme, a fraud". It is not dishonest because of RNG. You and everyone else know how crown crates work. And you know you there is no guarantee on what you get. How are you or anyone else being scammed? And I am really stretching myself here to understand how there is any "dubious pretense". The whole thing was created for players to try their chance at getting something they want and ZOS to make revenue. The only way I am buying your "common consumer ignorance" argument is if you can prove that ZOS did not do their part in explaining and instructing players exactly how crown crates work.

You can't call the lottery a scam.

Edit: And let me come back to comment on your first line about "providing value to the customer". The customer out of his/her own free will decides there is value in the crown crates when they decide to make the purchase. ZOS didn't force any value upon you, me, or anyone else.

Any sale of tokenized risk is inherently a scam if it can be proven that customers are ignorant regarding the nature of risk. It has been repeatedly shown that they don't. The sale of these items is not, by and large, an honest transaction by educated participants. While some might understand the nature of probability and risk, most do not. This is not to say that all of these people who don't understand will become gambling addicts, we are just talking about whether or not it's a scam. So by the above, we can indeed call the lottery a scam, same as these gambling boxes.

So while you argue along the lines of magical thinking and 'free will", it's just not supported by the facts. The cosmetic items are put there to entice people to gamble, a decision that they cannot make rationally because they don't understand the math behind it, and so we can conclude that it's all a scam. If these were available for purchase on the normal Crown Store it wouldn't be an issue, but ZOS marketing decided that it's reasonable to take people's money and not give them anything of value for it, so now here comes the pushback.

Well it's good to know how you define things. Thankfully we have laws that define things like this, so you don't go around just pointing and saying this is inherently whatever.

As far as magical thinking and free will, not supported by facts. I don't know what else to say to you about this particular topic. I sure as hell know Judge Judy wouldn't rule in your favor.

Moving goalposts around doesn't add credence to your argument. We weren't talking about the legal definition of a scam. Moreover, just because the practice is currently legal and doesn't have any case law surrounding it doesn't mean it won't be found illegal in the future. This can be seen all throughout the history of the US court.

And yes, your belief in magical thinking (the mighty power of Free Will! (TM)) is already documented, so it is supported by facts.

Caligamy_ESO · December 2016

Many of these people who are so outraged over the crown crates and their cosmetic items are the same people who said to quit crying when a crown store only motif came out because, "It's just a cosmetic." Sorry, not sorry.

Rev Rielle · December 2016

In all my years MMOing I've never come across an online community that complains so much about everything.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · December 2016

Sweet! Opened one crate with the 400 crowns I had and got the bear atronach!

Hahaha. Gambling is fun!

Work hard kids. Life will reward you.

Publius_Scipio · December 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I only bought 4 crates at 400 crowns each. Each crate's contents value on the crown store far exceeded the 400 crowns so I can not call it a rip off or a scam as long as you don't count on getting that one thing you have your heart set on every time. I was lucky and got the mount I wanted in the 4th crate, but was not disappointed in the useful poisons, pets, tattoos, hats and mimic stones I received in the other crates. In other words I more than got my monies worth.

So as long as you don't actually want anything and just feel the need to spend crowns on who-cares-what, they're a great deal, but if you actually want something they're a total scam, got it.

That is the complete and total BS way of understanding what they are. It can't be a scam because YOU ALL KNOW EXACTLY what they are. And ZOS explained how they work. They aren't forced upon anyone. You make the decision if you are going to give it a shot. There is no scam.

@Publius_Scipio Wrong, they're inherently a scam because it's a method of taking money without providing value to the customer. It doesn't become not a scam under the dubious pretense that people "know what they are". The whole thing was literally created by a behaviorist to take advantage of common consumer ignorance. You know what wouldn't be a scam? Putting the items up for direct purchase. A scam isn't something forced on people, it's something that people get tricked into engaging with.

The definition of scam in the dictionary is "a dishonest scheme, a fraud". It is not dishonest because of RNG. You and everyone else know how crown crates work. And you know you there is no guarantee on what you get. How are you or anyone else being scammed? And I am really stretching myself here to understand how there is any "dubious pretense". The whole thing was created for players to try their chance at getting something they want and ZOS to make revenue. The only way I am buying your "common consumer ignorance" argument is if you can prove that ZOS did not do their part in explaining and instructing players exactly how crown crates work.

You can't call the lottery a scam.

Edit: And let me come back to comment on your first line about "providing value to the customer". The customer out of his/her own free will decides there is value in the crown crates when they decide to make the purchase. ZOS didn't force any value upon you, me, or anyone else.

Any sale of tokenized risk is inherently a scam if it can be proven that customers are ignorant regarding the nature of risk. It has been repeatedly shown that they don't. The sale of these items is not, by and large, an honest transaction by educated participants. While some might understand the nature of probability and risk, most do not. This is not to say that all of these people who don't understand will become gambling addicts, we are just talking about whether or not it's a scam. So by the above, we can indeed call the lottery a scam, same as these gambling boxes.

So while you argue along the lines of magical thinking and 'free will", it's just not supported by the facts. The cosmetic items are put there to entice people to gamble, a decision that they cannot make rationally because they don't understand the math behind it, and so we can conclude that it's all a scam. If these were available for purchase on the normal Crown Store it wouldn't be an issue, but ZOS marketing decided that it's reasonable to take people's money and not give them anything of value for it, so now here comes the pushback.

Well it's good to know how you define things. Thankfully we have laws that define things like this, so you don't go around just pointing and saying this is inherently whatever.

As far as magical thinking and free will, not supported by facts. I don't know what else to say to you about this particular topic. I sure as hell know Judge Judy wouldn't rule in your favor.

Moving goalposts around doesn't add credence to your argument. We weren't talking about the legal definition of a scam. Moreover, just because the practice is currently legal and doesn't have any case law surrounding it doesn't mean it won't be found illegal in the future. This can be seen all throughout the history of the US court.

And yes, your belief in magical thinking (the mighty power of Free Will! (TM)) is already documented, so it is supported by facts.

Your basis is so out of whack you don't even realize it i guess. You went off about what you think is a scam, you come off making baseless arguments people not being able to make rational decisions. And whatever else. A total joke.

Unless you prove ZOS didn't do their part legally to explain what crown crates are, how they work, what they cost, what you may OR MAY NOT win, you have zero argument.

You came here you egregiously threw the word scam around. You call ZOS (the people involved with the decision of crown crates at least) scammers. That's bad. And don't paint me with your brush about magical make believes because once again YOU believe it's that way. We don't work like that in this world.

Edit: And to add further to this juggling show you are putting on here. Don't expect anyone to take you seriously in this argument when one of your points is about what may or may not happen in the future, and that history supports that. Give the people that go to work at ZOS like everyone else goes to work, to make an honest living a break.

Cazzy · December 2016

I'm struggling guys. I'm not gonna lie. I'm fighting the urge to gamble away what's left of my overdraft. Everyone talking about how great it is and how lucky they have been.

So not only do I have to avoid the game but I have to avoid the forum now too. Great.

Preyfar · December 2016

Cazzy wrote: »

I'm struggling guys. I'm not gonna lie. I'm fighting the urge to gamble away what's left of my overdraft. Everyone talking about how great it is and how lucky they have been.

So not only do I have to avoid the game but I have to avoid the forum now too. Great.

Heh. I'm in the same boat, and it's not fun.

Cazzy · December 2016

Preyfar wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

I'm struggling guys. I'm not gonna lie. I'm fighting the urge to gamble away what's left of my overdraft. Everyone talking about how great it is and how lucky they have been.

So not only do I have to avoid the game but I have to avoid the forum now too. Great.

Heh. I'm in the same boat, and it's not fun.

I'm gonna play Sims 4 and have a coffee. Got anything you can play that isn't ESO? Stay strong!

disintegr8 · December 2016

JimT722 wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

Can anyone advise me what the legal age for gambling lotteries is in their country?
Does it match the 18+ for this game or is it older?

Because we all know there is nobody under 18 playing this game and as long as the legal gambling age for lottery tickets is 18, everything is fine and people can try their luck on the crates.

From what I hear regularly on PS4 voice chat, there are plenty of people well under 18.

Surely not!
I though every person playing this game was of legal age, sound mind and capable of making well considered choices.

code65536 · December 2016

@Publius_Scipio The word "scam" is a red herring and, frankly, not the word that I would've chosen to use.

What ZOS is doing is not illegal, nor is it a scam.

But it is opaque and hinders people who wish to make informed decisions. A lottery will have stated odds of winning. If you understand the rules of Blackjack, you can calculate the odds of winning because all the key factors like the size of the deck are known. So someone, if they so desire, can look at all the factors--their odds, the cost of play, the value of the potential rewards--and decide if it's worth it.

Granted, most people will not. That's how lotteries and casinos make money, after all. But it's transparent and people who want to act rationally are given the information they need to do so.

ZOS does not provide the drop rates. Thus it is impossible to make an informed decision about Crown Crates. Of course, this won't change things for many people. But can you not see how this is a black mark on this operation? What bothers people is what this lack of transparency signifies and symbolizes and what it says about how much ZOS respects its customers.

If ZOS can't respect us enough to offer us transparency, why, pray tell, should we be expected to respect them in return?

Recremen · December 2016

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I only bought 4 crates at 400 crowns each. Each crate's contents value on the crown store far exceeded the 400 crowns so I can not call it a rip off or a scam as long as you don't count on getting that one thing you have your heart set on every time. I was lucky and got the mount I wanted in the 4th crate, but was not disappointed in the useful poisons, pets, tattoos, hats and mimic stones I received in the other crates. In other words I more than got my monies worth.

So as long as you don't actually want anything and just feel the need to spend crowns on who-cares-what, they're a great deal, but if you actually want something they're a total scam, got it.

That is the complete and total BS way of understanding what they are. It can't be a scam because YOU ALL KNOW EXACTLY what they are. And ZOS explained how they work. They aren't forced upon anyone. You make the decision if you are going to give it a shot. There is no scam.

@Publius_Scipio Wrong, they're inherently a scam because it's a method of taking money without providing value to the customer. It doesn't become not a scam under the dubious pretense that people "know what they are". The whole thing was literally created by a behaviorist to take advantage of common consumer ignorance. You know what wouldn't be a scam? Putting the items up for direct purchase. A scam isn't something forced on people, it's something that people get tricked into engaging with.

The definition of scam in the dictionary is "a dishonest scheme, a fraud". It is not dishonest because of RNG. You and everyone else know how crown crates work. And you know you there is no guarantee on what you get. How are you or anyone else being scammed? And I am really stretching myself here to understand how there is any "dubious pretense". The whole thing was created for players to try their chance at getting something they want and ZOS to make revenue. The only way I am buying your "common consumer ignorance" argument is if you can prove that ZOS did not do their part in explaining and instructing players exactly how crown crates work.

You can't call the lottery a scam.

Edit: And let me come back to comment on your first line about "providing value to the customer". The customer out of his/her own free will decides there is value in the crown crates when they decide to make the purchase. ZOS didn't force any value upon you, me, or anyone else.

Any sale of tokenized risk is inherently a scam if it can be proven that customers are ignorant regarding the nature of risk. It has been repeatedly shown that they don't. The sale of these items is not, by and large, an honest transaction by educated participants. While some might understand the nature of probability and risk, most do not. This is not to say that all of these people who don't understand will become gambling addicts, we are just talking about whether or not it's a scam. So by the above, we can indeed call the lottery a scam, same as these gambling boxes.

So while you argue along the lines of magical thinking and 'free will", it's just not supported by the facts. The cosmetic items are put there to entice people to gamble, a decision that they cannot make rationally because they don't understand the math behind it, and so we can conclude that it's all a scam. If these were available for purchase on the normal Crown Store it wouldn't be an issue, but ZOS marketing decided that it's reasonable to take people's money and not give them anything of value for it, so now here comes the pushback.

Well it's good to know how you define things. Thankfully we have laws that define things like this, so you don't go around just pointing and saying this is inherently whatever.

As far as magical thinking and free will, not supported by facts. I don't know what else to say to you about this particular topic. I sure as hell know Judge Judy wouldn't rule in your favor.

Moving goalposts around doesn't add credence to your argument. We weren't talking about the legal definition of a scam. Moreover, just because the practice is currently legal and doesn't have any case law surrounding it doesn't mean it won't be found illegal in the future. This can be seen all throughout the history of the US court.

And yes, your belief in magical thinking (the mighty power of Free Will! (TM)) is already documented, so it is supported by facts.

Your basis is so out of whack you don't even realize it i guess. You went off about what you think is a scam, you come off making baseless arguments people not being able to make rational decisions. And whatever else. A total joke.

Unless you prove ZOS didn't do their part legally to explain what crown crates are, how they work, what they cost, what you may OR MAY NOT win, you have zero argument.

You came here you egregiously threw the word scam around. You call ZOS (the people involved with the decision of crown crates at least) scammers. That's bad. And don't paint me with your brush about magical make believes because once again YOU believe it's that way. We don't work like that in this world.

It's a perfectly valid argumentative basis, please feel free to prove otherwise. Just claiming something is false doesn't make it so. You are still using legality as the crux of your argument, which I already showed to be a fallacious pretense. If you really need me to spell it out more plainly for you I'm more than willing, but you seem to lack the basic rhetorical background to actually understand what's going on. Maybe educate yourself a bit, take a deep breath, then come back and try to form a cohesive argument.

I mean seriously, just look at yourself. First you went off about free will, and now you're saying that I went off about free will? You are having trouble just keeping track of who said what.

Ethromelb14_ESO · December 2016

That's why it's called luck. They should probably be renamed 'Gamble Crates'.

Preyfar · December 2016

Cazzy wrote: »

Preyfar wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

I'm struggling guys. I'm not gonna lie. I'm fighting the urge to gamble away what's left of my overdraft. Everyone talking about how great it is and how lucky they have been.

So not only do I have to avoid the game but I have to avoid the forum now too. Great.

Heh. I'm in the same boat, and it's not fun.

I'm gonna play Sims 4 and have a coffee. Got anything you can play that isn't ESO? Stay strong!

Well, I've dropped over 25,000 crowns on the crates. No atro mounts. That's the eqv. of $200 on some damn boxes that gave me, really, next to nothing. And yet... I have an impulse tick to buy more. And that's a bad thing.

I'm actually hoping ZOS offers a way to block Crown Crate purchases from accounts because I have that itch. I don't mind the Crown Store, but... the Crates are just...

Eh.

JimT722 · December 2016

Yay rooster frills and enveloping scales. Thanks ZOS for making me think I would be able to purchase this in your amazing style parlor release in July.

Come check out the new dungeons and style parlor. Can't wait to see what they do with housing.

I think I am one of the few people who actually would want these. Can I buy it? Nope. Buy from a other player? No.

Prof_Bawbag · December 2016

disintegr8 wrote: »

Can anyone advise me what the legal age for gambling lotteries is in their country?
Does it match the 18+ for this game or is it older?

Because we all know there is nobody under 18 playing this game and as long as the legal gambling age for lottery tickets is 18, everything is fine and people can try their luck on the crates.

Doesn't make a difference really. If the game box states it's age restricted, then the onus is on the parents to make sure little Timmy isn't gambling. Then there's also the fact little Timmy is in possession of an age restricted game that he has either directly been sold illegally by a retailer or his parents bought it for him (I know that's not illegal before i get jump on for that). You could say the same applies to under age drinking. It's not the manufacturer that is liable for underage drinking, it's the retailer if they've knowingly sold it to someone underage or an adult that have purchased it for them.

Mercutio · December 2016

Legally speaking, Crown Crates are not a scam (at least in the USA, I cannot speak for other nations). One day that may change, but until new laws are enacted or a legal precedent is set via litigation there is nothing illegal being done.

I believe what many may be trying to say is that Crown Crates are unethical. That's certainly a subjective matter of opinion although it is one I share.

L2Pissue · December 2016

Cazzy wrote: »

I'm struggling guys. I'm not gonna lie. I'm fighting the urge to gamble away what's left of my overdraft. Everyone talking about how great it is and how lucky they have been.

So not only do I have to avoid the game but I have to avoid the forum now too. Great.

matter of time before PAWS become most crates purchasers

Publius_Scipio · December 2016

code65536 wrote: »

@Publius_Scipio The word "scam" is a red herring and, frankly, not the word that I would've chosen to use.

What ZOS is doing is not illegal, nor is it a scam.

But it is opaque and hinders people who wish to make informed decisions. A lottery will have stated odds of winning. If you understand the rules of Blackjack, you can calculate the odds of winning because all the key factors like the size of the deck are known. So someone, if they so desire, can look at all the factors--their odds, the cost of play, the value of the potential rewards--and decide if it's worth it.

Granted, most people will not. That's how lotteries and casinos make money, after all. But it's transparent and people who want to act rationally are given the information they need to do so.

ZOS does not provide the drop rates. Thus it is impossible to make an informed decision about Crown Crates. Of course, this won't change things for many people. But can you not see how this is a black mark on this operation? What bothers people is what this lack of transparency signifies and symbolizes and what it says about how much ZOS respects its customers.

If ZOS can't respect us enough to offer us transparency, why, pray tell, should we be expected to respect them in return?

This is a completely sensible response from what seems to be a reasonable sensible person. And you acknowledge there is no "evil" here, people can feel slighted if that's how they feel. But people can't go around and with a brush paint everyone and everything with their emotions.

Cazzy · December 2016

Preyfar wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

Preyfar wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

I'm struggling guys. I'm not gonna lie. I'm fighting the urge to gamble away what's left of my overdraft. Everyone talking about how great it is and how lucky they have been.

So not only do I have to avoid the game but I have to avoid the forum now too. Great.

Heh. I'm in the same boat, and it's not fun.

I'm gonna play Sims 4 and have a coffee. Got anything you can play that isn't ESO? Stay strong!

Well, I've dropped over 25,000 crowns on the crates. No atro mounts. That's the eqv. of $200 on some damn boxes that gave me, really, next to nothing. And yet... I have an impulse tick to buy more. And that's a bad thing.

I'm actually hoping ZOS offers a way to block Crown Crate purchases from accounts because I have that itch. I don't mind the Crown Store, but... the Crates are just...

Eh.

What I'm gonna do is buy some DLC or a book or something (not ESO related) so I get that rewarding feeling. That's pretty much where my cravings come from. Just tell yourself it's not gonna happen. Maybe take a break for a few hours and find something that makes you feel rewarded and happy

Cazzy · December 2016

L2Pissue wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

I'm struggling guys. I'm not gonna lie. I'm fighting the urge to gamble away what's left of my overdraft. Everyone talking about how great it is and how lucky they have been.

So not only do I have to avoid the game but I have to avoid the forum now too. Great.

matter of time before PAWS become most crates purchasers

I wasn't actually referring to crates. I was talking about online gambling.

Publius_Scipio · December 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I only bought 4 crates at 400 crowns each. Each crate's contents value on the crown store far exceeded the 400 crowns so I can not call it a rip off or a scam as long as you don't count on getting that one thing you have your heart set on every time. I was lucky and got the mount I wanted in the 4th crate, but was not disappointed in the useful poisons, pets, tattoos, hats and mimic stones I received in the other crates. In other words I more than got my monies worth.

So as long as you don't actually want anything and just feel the need to spend crowns on who-cares-what, they're a great deal, but if you actually want something they're a total scam, got it.

That is the complete and total BS way of understanding what they are. It can't be a scam because YOU ALL KNOW EXACTLY what they are. And ZOS explained how they work. They aren't forced upon anyone. You make the decision if you are going to give it a shot. There is no scam.

@Publius_Scipio Wrong, they're inherently a scam because it's a method of taking money without providing value to the customer. It doesn't become not a scam under the dubious pretense that people "know what they are". The whole thing was literally created by a behaviorist to take advantage of common consumer ignorance. You know what wouldn't be a scam? Putting the items up for direct purchase. A scam isn't something forced on people, it's something that people get tricked into engaging with.

The definition of scam in the dictionary is "a dishonest scheme, a fraud". It is not dishonest because of RNG. You and everyone else know how crown crates work. And you know you there is no guarantee on what you get. How are you or anyone else being scammed? And I am really stretching myself here to understand how there is any "dubious pretense". The whole thing was created for players to try their chance at getting something they want and ZOS to make revenue. The only way I am buying your "common consumer ignorance" argument is if you can prove that ZOS did not do their part in explaining and instructing players exactly how crown crates work.

You can't call the lottery a scam.

Edit: And let me come back to comment on your first line about "providing value to the customer". The customer out of his/her own free will decides there is value in the crown crates when they decide to make the purchase. ZOS didn't force any value upon you, me, or anyone else.

Any sale of tokenized risk is inherently a scam if it can be proven that customers are ignorant regarding the nature of risk. It has been repeatedly shown that they don't. The sale of these items is not, by and large, an honest transaction by educated participants. While some might understand the nature of probability and risk, most do not. This is not to say that all of these people who don't understand will become gambling addicts, we are just talking about whether or not it's a scam. So by the above, we can indeed call the lottery a scam, same as these gambling boxes.

So while you argue along the lines of magical thinking and 'free will", it's just not supported by the facts. The cosmetic items are put there to entice people to gamble, a decision that they cannot make rationally because they don't understand the math behind it, and so we can conclude that it's all a scam. If these were available for purchase on the normal Crown Store it wouldn't be an issue, but ZOS marketing decided that it's reasonable to take people's money and not give them anything of value for it, so now here comes the pushback.

Well it's good to know how you define things. Thankfully we have laws that define things like this, so you don't go around just pointing and saying this is inherently whatever.

As far as magical thinking and free will, not supported by facts. I don't know what else to say to you about this particular topic. I sure as hell know Judge Judy wouldn't rule in your favor.

Moving goalposts around doesn't add credence to your argument. We weren't talking about the legal definition of a scam. Moreover, just because the practice is currently legal and doesn't have any case law surrounding it doesn't mean it won't be found illegal in the future. This can be seen all throughout the history of the US court.

And yes, your belief in magical thinking (the mighty power of Free Will! (TM)) is already documented, so it is supported by facts.

Your basis is so out of whack you don't even realize it i guess. You went off about what you think is a scam, you come off making baseless arguments people not being able to make rational decisions. And whatever else. A total joke.

Unless you prove ZOS didn't do their part legally to explain what crown crates are, how they work, what they cost, what you may OR MAY NOT win, you have zero argument.

You came here you egregiously threw the word scam around. You call ZOS (the people involved with the decision of crown crates at least) scammers. That's bad. And don't paint me with your brush about magical make believes because once again YOU believe it's that way. We don't work like that in this world.

It's a perfectly valid argumentative basis, please feel free to prove otherwise. Just claiming something is false doesn't make it so. You are still using legality as the crux of your argument, which I already showed to be a fallacious pretense. If you really need me to spell it out more plainly for you I'm more than willing, but you seem to lack the basic rhetorical background to actually understand what's going on. Maybe educate yourself a bit, take a deep breath, then come back and try to form a cohesive argument.

I mean seriously, just look at yourself. First you went off about free will, and now you're saying that I went off about free will? You are having trouble just keeping track of who said what.

There is no track here. I see you juggling. And you have again zero basis. You paint this as a scam because THAT's WHAT YOU SAY IT IS. And you think that what you feel then has to be laid over reality.

You and your philosophy BS. ZOS is a company that in good faith can pursue a profit under applicable rules and regulations in place. People at their OWN RISK will spend their own money on crown crates. That's reality. Not your make believe whatever you say is reality hot garbage.

Recremen · December 2016

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

I only bought 4 crates at 400 crowns each. Each crate's contents value on the crown store far exceeded the 400 crowns so I can not call it a rip off or a scam as long as you don't count on getting that one thing you have your heart set on every time. I was lucky and got the mount I wanted in the 4th crate, but was not disappointed in the useful poisons, pets, tattoos, hats and mimic stones I received in the other crates. In other words I more than got my monies worth.

So as long as you don't actually want anything and just feel the need to spend crowns on who-cares-what, they're a great deal, but if you actually want something they're a total scam, got it.

That is the complete and total BS way of understanding what they are. It can't be a scam because YOU ALL KNOW EXACTLY what they are. And ZOS explained how they work. They aren't forced upon anyone. You make the decision if you are going to give it a shot. There is no scam.

@Publius_Scipio Wrong, they're inherently a scam because it's a method of taking money without providing value to the customer. It doesn't become not a scam under the dubious pretense that people "know what they are". The whole thing was literally created by a behaviorist to take advantage of common consumer ignorance. You know what wouldn't be a scam? Putting the items up for direct purchase. A scam isn't something forced on people, it's something that people get tricked into engaging with.

The definition of scam in the dictionary is "a dishonest scheme, a fraud". It is not dishonest because of RNG. You and everyone else know how crown crates work. And you know you there is no guarantee on what you get. How are you or anyone else being scammed? And I am really stretching myself here to understand how there is any "dubious pretense". The whole thing was created for players to try their chance at getting something they want and ZOS to make revenue. The only way I am buying your "common consumer ignorance" argument is if you can prove that ZOS did not do their part in explaining and instructing players exactly how crown crates work.

You can't call the lottery a scam.

Edit: And let me come back to comment on your first line about "providing value to the customer". The customer out of his/her own free will decides there is value in the crown crates when they decide to make the purchase. ZOS didn't force any value upon you, me, or anyone else.

Any sale of tokenized risk is inherently a scam if it can be proven that customers are ignorant regarding the nature of risk. It has been repeatedly shown that they don't. The sale of these items is not, by and large, an honest transaction by educated participants. While some might understand the nature of probability and risk, most do not. This is not to say that all of these people who don't understand will become gambling addicts, we are just talking about whether or not it's a scam. So by the above, we can indeed call the lottery a scam, same as these gambling boxes.

So while you argue along the lines of magical thinking and 'free will", it's just not supported by the facts. The cosmetic items are put there to entice people to gamble, a decision that they cannot make rationally because they don't understand the math behind it, and so we can conclude that it's all a scam. If these were available for purchase on the normal Crown Store it wouldn't be an issue, but ZOS marketing decided that it's reasonable to take people's money and not give them anything of value for it, so now here comes the pushback.

Well it's good to know how you define things. Thankfully we have laws that define things like this, so you don't go around just pointing and saying this is inherently whatever.

As far as magical thinking and free will, not supported by facts. I don't know what else to say to you about this particular topic. I sure as hell know Judge Judy wouldn't rule in your favor.

Moving goalposts around doesn't add credence to your argument. We weren't talking about the legal definition of a scam. Moreover, just because the practice is currently legal and doesn't have any case law surrounding it doesn't mean it won't be found illegal in the future. This can be seen all throughout the history of the US court.

And yes, your belief in magical thinking (the mighty power of Free Will! (TM)) is already documented, so it is supported by facts.

Your basis is so out of whack you don't even realize it i guess. You went off about what you think is a scam, you come off making baseless arguments people not being able to make rational decisions. And whatever else. A total joke.

Unless you prove ZOS didn't do their part legally to explain what crown crates are, how they work, what they cost, what you may OR MAY NOT win, you have zero argument.

You came here you egregiously threw the word scam around. You call ZOS (the people involved with the decision of crown crates at least) scammers. That's bad. And don't paint me with your brush about magical make believes because once again YOU believe it's that way. We don't work like that in this world.

It's a perfectly valid argumentative basis, please feel free to prove otherwise. Just claiming something is false doesn't make it so. You are still using legality as the crux of your argument, which I already showed to be a fallacious pretense. If you really need me to spell it out more plainly for you I'm more than willing, but you seem to lack the basic rhetorical background to actually understand what's going on. Maybe educate yourself a bit, take a deep breath, then come back and try to form a cohesive argument.

I mean seriously, just look at yourself. First you went off about free will, and now you're saying that I went off about free will? You are having trouble just keeping track of who said what.

There is no track here. I see you juggling. And you have again zero basis. You paint this as a scam because THAT's WHAT YOU SAY IT IS. And you think that what you feel then has to be laid over reality.

You and your philosophy BS. ZOS is a company that in good faith can pursue a profit under applicable rules and regulations in place. People at their OWN RISK will spend their own money on crown crates. That's reality. Not your make believe whatever you say is reality hot garbage.

The basis for my argument is the very definition you gave for a scam.

The definition of scam in the dictionary is "a dishonest scheme, a fraud".

I outlined how the gambling boxes are a dishonest scheme. Specifically, it is dishonest for them to sell risk when the customers do not typically understand risk. I cited a bunch of articles and studies evidencing that consumers indeed don't understand risk. It's not a scam because I say it is, I am using the definition of scam that you found. If you can't follow that train of thought then I don't know what to tell you, it's perfectly outlined and uses your own definitions.

Now, however, you've moved the goalposts into the legal definition of fraud, which I cannot argue in good faith since I'm not a lawyer. I did, however, outline how even that basis is under contention, as it is possible for things to be declared illegal even after they have been in practice. For example, we did not use to have food labeling laws, but now it is illegal not to disclose the contents of a food item. Unless you want to argue that we've always had labeling laws, I'd say your position is on shaky ground.

Cryptical · December 2016

It's not that I didn't get the mount I wanted... It's that I got stuck with crapton of stuff that I was NOT ALLOWED TO TURN INTO GEMS.

I don't have an argonian, and have NO DESIRE AT ALL to make one. But I could not make those jawbone blades into gems, that thing sits in my collection now. I will be reminded of it EVERY time I go to the appearance menu, because there sits the "Facial Accessories" that I paid crowns for but couldn't turn into gems.

Every. Time.
There it is.

Did I want that red pit wolf? Nope. Got FOUR cat mounts, the highland wolf, 3 horses, guar, bear, camel... Wanted to turn that pit wolf into gems to put toward the senche atro... Cannot. Stuck with that red wolf.

Farking furious.

disintegr8 · December 2016

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

Can anyone advise me what the legal age for gambling lotteries is in their country?
Does it match the 18+ for this game or is it older?

Because we all know there is nobody under 18 playing this game and as long as the legal gambling age for lottery tickets is 18, everything is fine and people can try their luck on the crates.

Doesn't make a difference really. If the game box states it's age restricted, then the onus is on the parents to make sure little Timmy isn't gambling. Then there's also the fact little Timmy is in possession of an age restricted game that he has either directly been sold illegally by a retailer or his parents bought it for him (I know that's not illegal before i get jump on for that). You could say the same applies to under age drinking. It's not the manufacturer that is liable for underage drinking, it's the retailer if they've knowingly sold it to someone underage or an adult that have purchased it for them.

Simply having something on the packaging about the age restriction would probably not hold up in a court of law, at least not in this country. Maybe someone who is 16 buys the game, sets up a PSN account using their parents credit card and simply falsifies their date of birth when setting up an account.

I suppose in some countries the parents would try and sue the game designer, manufacturer, the retailer, Sony and the credit card company. Does 18+ on the packaging exonerate everyone from being responsible for whatever happens?

In Australia a 16 year old is not held accountable for what they do, surely the parents have done nothing wrong, has anyone?
Surely someone has, otherwise who can we sue?

Havokatmos93 · December 2016

I got the storm camel in my 1st 4 pack and red pit wolf after 18 crates with gems after liquidating everything I could I'm done with crates until the next mount or cool costume. What else was I gonna spend my black Friday crowns on?

Bouldercleave · December 2016

Moltyr wrote: »

DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY!!! (unless you're super rich)

Edited title to remove caps lock and baiting language.

That's not your call to make.

Recremen · December 2016

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Moltyr wrote: »

DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY!!! (unless you're super rich)

Edited title to remove caps lock and baiting language.

That's not your call to make.

It's their advice to give.