Please leave the new sets for PVE alone!

AdicusDio · November 2016

I hear people in PvP are complaining about sets popping too much. Fine whatever.

Being strictly a PvE player, I slowly switched all my old Golden Hundings and Golden Dreugh King out for newer sets as they seem more fun to run with. Took a couple weeks to get everything dialed-in with desirable traits and fully upgraded. So far, they are great fun doing pledges, grinding, etc. Now I hear they are getting nerfed? Becuase.....PvP is whining about them? Seriously? Do you actually WANT people to keep playing? Or is this some under-handed subterfuge to drive people away in disgust to never return?

Taylor_MB · November 2016

Stacking proc sets has already driven people away from PvP and the game.

Balancing proc sets is a good move, light attacks should not instantly be able to do 15k+ instant undodgeable dmg.

Proc sets are nice in PvE, but if you rely on them to get through content you need to look again at your skill rotation and optimize some more.

Rohamad_Ali · November 2016

Certain proc sets like vipers are broken and not working as intended for PvP or PVE . Getting fixed is not a nerf .

AdicusDio · November 2016

I could care less about PvP. People teleport 100' forward and snare you, and you are dead by the time you get out. That's OK? That drove me from Cyrodill. That and everyone seems to have unlimited health, magic, and stam regen. Watched one get somehow survive 6 high cp players wailing on him for 2 minutes and he shrugged it off. But a set bothers you? Gimme a break.

Why do you care about Viper in PvE? I use it, but took a huge crit drop from the set it replaced, so it evens out. It also helps to slightly offset constant stam usage. I actually use 3 of the new sets after ignoring them for awhile. They are fun, but I'm playing mostly vet pledges and they don't turn me into a super hero just by equipping them.

I could also care less about apologists that defend everything regardless of merits, go wipe your nose off. The sets are doing what they are supposed to do. Don't like, don't wear them. Leave the whining crud OUT of PvE.

FENGRUSH · November 2016

AdicusDio wrote: »

I could care less about PvP. People teleport 100' forward and snare you, and you are dead by the time you get out. That's OK? That drove me from Cyrodill. That and everyone seems to have unlimited health, magic, and stam regen. Watched one get somehow survive 6 high cp players wailing on him for 2 minutes and he shrugged it off. But a set bothers you? Gimme a break.

Why do you care about Viper in PvE? I use it, but took a huge crit drop from the set it replaced, so it evens out. It also helps to slightly offset constant stam usage. I actually use 3 of the new sets after ignoring them for awhile. They are fun, but I'm playing mostly vet pledges and they don't turn me into a super hero just by equipping them.

I could also care less about apologists that defend everything regardless of merits, go wipe your nose off. The sets are doing what they are supposed to do. Don't like, don't wear them. Leave the whining crud OUT of PvE.

This is a really productive thread with your well rounded point of view of PvP and PvE.

WuffyCerulei · November 2016

There has to be a nerf (maybe apart of battle spirit) specifically for PvP instances, so that PvE doesn't suffer for the whining of PvPers. I do a lot of both, and unfortunately PvEers suffer a lot of nerfs because of PvPers

WildWilbur · November 2016

Ok, stop all balancing! A PvEer is happy as it is!

Enslaved · November 2016

Don't nerf my vicecannon/viper/tumorscale build, its super effective

Mady · November 2016

You can bash people and (if you have the mighty skill aka luck) one hit them.

Sure.... don't nerf it.

I hope @Sypher makes a video about his bad luck yesterday

bebynnag · November 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

AdicusDio wrote: »

I could care less about PvP. People teleport 100' forward and snare you, and you are dead by the time you get out. That's OK? That drove me from Cyrodill. That and everyone seems to have unlimited health, magic, and stam regen. Watched one get somehow survive 6 high cp players wailing on him for 2 minutes and he shrugged it off. But a set bothers you? Gimme a break.

Why do you care about Viper in PvE? I use it, but took a huge crit drop from the set it replaced, so it evens out. It also helps to slightly offset constant stam usage. I actually use 3 of the new sets after ignoring them for awhile. They are fun, but I'm playing mostly vet pledges and they don't turn me into a super hero just by equipping them.

I could also care less about apologists that defend everything regardless of merits, go wipe your nose off. The sets are doing what they are supposed to do. Don't like, don't wear them. Leave the whining crud OUT of PvE.

This is a really productive thread with your well rounded point of view of PvP and PvE.

I actually agree with you, with the double negative & the beginning of each paragraph (i could care less) they clearly care a great deal about the state of PvP, which is a complete u-turn from their original post... im getting confused & dizzy!

Taylor_MB · November 2016

AdicusDio wrote: »

I could care less about PvP. People teleport 100' forward and snare you, and you are dead by the time you get out. That's OK? That drove me from Cyrodill. That and everyone seems to have unlimited health, magic, and stam regen. Watched one get somehow survive 6 high cp players wailing on him for 2 minutes and he shrugged it off. But a set bothers you? Gimme a break.

Why do you care about Viper in PvE? I use it, but took a huge crit drop from the set it replaced, so it evens out. It also helps to slightly offset constant stam usage. I actually use 3 of the new sets after ignoring them for awhile. They are fun, but I'm playing mostly vet pledges and they don't turn me into a super hero just by equipping them.

I could also care less about apologists that defend everything regardless of merits, go wipe your nose off. The sets are doing what they are supposed to do. Don't like, don't wear them. Leave the whining crud OUT of PvE.

Well okay. I presented a few points about why it needs adjustment, but you call me the whiner? GG starting a constructive conversation. And yet, I'm going to persist, because I think it's important these issues are discussed.

The balance to proc sets has a 99% chance of being a global cooldown, and we PERFECTLY HAPPY with that being integrated into battle spirit.

1) In order to have an effective discussion you should care about all aspects of the game. I mainly PvP, but I still care about PvE and enjoy the time I spend there (apart from grinding new sets, gross).

2) I would love to have a detailed discussions about the issues you have experienced with PvP, I spent (as did everyone else) A LOT of time dying before I learnt counters to everything. In PvP, the ONLY counter to proc sets is sheilds or increased HP (I run with 24k now instead of 19k), but you can still die instantly from 2 light attacks if both people are wearing 3 proc sets.

Regarding unlimited resources, try playing non-cp campaign, procs sets are worse there (cause no HP from CP) but resource management / damage output / survivability need to be traded off with each other. High survivability = no damage (unless stacking proc sets, which is an issue). 1v6 is not an issue as long as that 1 cannot do damage, so no, that does not bother me in the slightest.

3) Seeming you mentioned viper - it will not get nerfed, it will get fixed to stop proccing off range attacks (seeming the tooltip explicitly states its a melee only proc). If you just wear Viper and don't stack with other proc sets, you will not be affected in the slightest.

4) Unsure what I'm wiping my nose about to be perfectly honest.

----

To summarize. If you just wear viper you will not see a change. Stacking procs sets for PvE you'd hit your dps cap pretty quickly (and it will be pretty low), so any half decent PvE'er will not be effected in any way (any PvE'er who does stack proc sets will just drop that setup sooner then they would've without a global cool down, no harm done there).

So a global cool down (even if not in battle spirit) will have MINIMAL effect in PvE.

A global cooldown is required for PvP for the following reasons:
• As your example above, 1v6 is fine as long as that 1 cannot put out damage (balancing regen / survivability / damage is core to PvP), proc sets allow that 1 to survive and pump out way to much burst damage with little no trade off.
• Undodgeable, instant damage proc sets have no counter, this is an issue. Viper, Widowmaker, Tremorscale, Red Mountain and (90% of the time) Veli are the issues here, 3 can be stacked and proc off a single light attack for instantaneous 15k+ damage. No counter = bad design. **(Skoria would be an issue, but magicka users have no instant dmg proc sets (neither should stamina), so it is only a problem on stam sorcs (the only decent stamina DoT stacking class)).

---

Long post I know, but I hope it has cleared up why we care so much.

Edit: Also in you 1v6 example, high CP means absolutely nothing. Sooooooo many times a cp561 players first reaction to me attacking them has been to heavy attack me with their stave, it's terribly embarrassing.

UntrustedExistenz · November 2016

I disagree.
Proc sets are overpowered and it's a fact (dealing such amount of dmg by striking light attack is redicolous).
I don't like whining of pvpers but this time they have right. PvP is unplayable at the way as it is.
And you need to rescpect another point of view of playing eso. Don't get me wrong, I'm more PVE than PVP so we are at the same team,but with a nerf of overpowered proc sets you will be slighty weaker (but still strong af). At the other side pvp players can have a good experience at their playing without waiting for instakill.

Biro123 · November 2016

I'm sure the PVP mobs would be complaining just as much as the PVPers (if they could post in the forums)..

Imbalance is imbalance, whether you like it or not.

But seriously, there is a big problem with procsets that combine high damage with high proc-chance and similar cooldowns which means massive spikes in damage When your opponents only have player-sized health pools as opposed to boss-sized health-pools, this makes a MASSIVE difference. And when you spend half your time being defensive as opposed to constant attacking that nicely-taunted mob - well, some the procs are going off with almost every attack.

The other problem is the massive power-creep on these sets compared to what came before - and it is huge...

Vipers - 100% chance on melee hits to cause 7894 poison dmg every 4 seconds.
Ashen Grip - 10% chance on melee hits to cause 1352 fire dmg every 4 seconds.

Not to mention poison dmg is further boosted by stam CP's.. fire dmg isn't (and its other bonuses make Ashen a stam set). Sets should have to make you choose what to run - not have these kind of massive difference in power.

Nobody complained about Ashen Grip - but nobody used it.. The porridge was too cold. Everybody complains about viper.. and Everybody uses it.. The porridge is too hot. The porridge needs to be just right.

Wizball1987 · November 2016

Maybe we could have a law that doesnt allow pve sets in pvp lands...if you zone into cyri with pve set's on..it strips you!

STEVIL · November 2016

The main change i want is to death recap.

First, list desth recap stats for adversaries.
Second, separate out the damage gained as a result of gear effects.

That way, when a NMG proc cuts the def of an enemy boss and the whole gang gets dmg boosts against it, they csn see how much the kill was a result of the set proc just like right now they see it for viper, tremorscale, etc.

That way when the extra crits from other sets kick in they can see how much its the 100% proc on existing from TBS or others as opposed to their "skill."

May add a second to the post combat recap math.

Well worth it tho.

Drummerx04 · November 2016

AdicusDio wrote: »

I could care less about PvP. People teleport 100' forward and snare you, and you are dead by the time you get out. That's OK? That drove me from Cyrodill. That and everyone seems to have unlimited health, magic, and stam regen. Watched one get somehow survive 6 high cp players wailing on him for 2 minutes and he shrugged it off. But a set bothers you? Gimme a break.

Why do you care about Viper in PvE? I use it, but took a huge crit drop from the set it replaced, so it evens out. It also helps to slightly offset constant stam usage. I actually use 3 of the new sets after ignoring them for awhile. They are fun, but I'm playing mostly vet pledges and they don't turn me into a super hero just by equipping them.

I could also care less about apologists that defend everything regardless of merits, go wipe your nose off. The sets are doing what they are supposed to do. Don't like, don't wear them. Leave the whining crud OUT of PvE.

Tell you what, go fight that permablocking tremorscale+viper tank running with his 4 other permablocking tremorscale+viper tank friends and come back here and tell me you had a good time.

ku5h · November 2016

Tipical ESO newcommer. Have no idea about real state of the game, but first to spit wisdom all over the forum. You see, many of us actually know how to PvP and enjoy it, so we want some balance changes when we see something not performing in balanced way. I couldn't care less about you and you'r PvE so im all for PvP balance changes, so you can go and wipe you'r nose off.
On a serious note, why ppl cry about nerfing some sets if you play PvE? Is PvE to hard for you? No wander you couldn't stand for 2 sec in PvP. Go L2P boy!

AzuraKin · November 2016

AdicusDio wrote: »

I could care less about PvP. People teleport 100' forward and snare you, and you are dead by the time you get out. That's OK? That drove me from Cyrodill. That and everyone seems to have unlimited health, magic, and stam regen. Watched one get somehow survive 6 high cp players wailing on him for 2 minutes and he shrugged it off. But a set bothers you? Gimme a break.

Why do you care about Viper in PvE? I use it, but took a huge crit drop from the set it replaced, so it evens out. It also helps to slightly offset constant stam usage. I actually use 3 of the new sets after ignoring them for awhile. They are fun, but I'm playing mostly vet pledges and they don't turn me into a super hero just by equipping them.

I could also care less about apologists that defend everything regardless of merits, go wipe your nose off. The sets are doing what they are supposed to do. Don't like, don't wear them. Leave the whining crud OUT of PvE.

sounds like the classic learn to play dilemma.

STEVIL · November 2016

Drummerx04 wrote: »

AdicusDio wrote: »

I could care less about PvP. People teleport 100' forward and snare you, and you are dead by the time you get out. That's OK? That drove me from Cyrodill. That and everyone seems to have unlimited health, magic, and stam regen. Watched one get somehow survive 6 high cp players wailing on him for 2 minutes and he shrugged it off. But a set bothers you? Gimme a break.

Why do you care about Viper in PvE? I use it, but took a huge crit drop from the set it replaced, so it evens out. It also helps to slightly offset constant stam usage. I actually use 3 of the new sets after ignoring them for awhile. They are fun, but I'm playing mostly vet pledges and they don't turn me into a super hero just by equipping them.

I could also care less about apologists that defend everything regardless of merits, go wipe your nose off. The sets are doing what they are supposed to do. Don't like, don't wear them. Leave the whining crud OUT of PvE.

Tell you what, go fight that permablocking tremorscale+viper tank running with his 4 other permablocking tremorscale+viper tank friends and come back here and tell me you had a good time.

Is it really that much more enjoyable to fight the 5 man jesus besmers or 5 man stormers or or 5 man shiners or 5 man meta of the monthers?

"Fighting outnumbered five to one against build x isnt fun" does not seem to me a compelling argument for there being an imbalance.

"Fighting outnumbered five to one wearing this build is competitive" ... that would be the start of a compelling argument perhaps.

AzuraKin · November 2016

Wizball1987 wrote: »

Maybe we could have a law that doesnt allow pve sets in pvp lands...if you zone into cyri with pve set's on..it strips you!

define pvp vs pve gear. would spc be considered pve? pvp? how about julianos? kagrenacs hope? archer's mind? twice born star? fasallas? while your post sounds great, when you actually have zos start abitrarily designating sets as pve, pvp you then crimp creativity. i would say the only thing they should do is make the proc sets work like vicious death, something you cannot guarantee even if you pull the greatest damage in the world. vicious death is very powerful damage, but the fact it only procs on a killing blow, and only in 4m of the target balances it out. that should be how any other proc sets work, rather then oh you hit a guy do 6k additional damage to them.

STEVIL · November 2016

AzuraKin wrote: »

Wizball1987 wrote: »

Maybe we could have a law that doesnt allow pve sets in pvp lands...if you zone into cyri with pve set's on..it strips you!

define pvp vs pve gear. would spc be considered pve? pvp? how about julianos? kagrenacs hope? archer's mind? twice born star? fasallas? while your post sounds great, when you actually have zos start abitrarily designating sets as pve, pvp you then crimp creativity. i would say the only thing they should do is make the proc sets work like vicious death, something you cannot guarantee even if you pull the greatest damage in the world. vicious death is very powerful damage, but the fact it only procs on a killing blow, and only in 4m of the target balances it out. that should be how any other proc sets work, rather then oh you hit a guy do 6k additional damage to them.

so if viper is changed to VDish 16k aoe with no cool down but a more restricted set of circumstances vs its current 7kish single target 4s cooldown you would be good with that?

What if viper proc on crits?

stevepdodson_ESO888 · November 2016

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Certain proc sets like vipers are broken and not working as intended for PvP or PVE . Getting fixed is not a nerf .

actually if you read the tool tip then it is doing exactly what is intended...it's just that they could make some changes to it so it does not constantly proc and also give it a cool down (e.g. 10% chance and 5 second cool down or something like that)

i'm not against making changes to sets for balance, but just make sure you know what the set is supposed to do before you say it is "not working as intended for PvP or PvE"

AzuraKin · November 2016

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Certain proc sets like vipers are broken and not working as intended for PvP or PVE . Getting fixed is not a nerf .

actually if you read the tool tip then it is doing exactly what is intended...it's just that they could make some changes to it so it does not constantly proc and also give it a cool down (e.g. 10% chance and 5 second cool down or something like that)

i'm not against making changes to sets for balance, but just make sure you know what the set is supposed to do before you say it is "not working as intended for PvP or PvE"

rofl tool tip says when doing melee damage, yet it procs of guess what? bow attacks which are guess what? not melee attacks.

Francescolg · November 2016

Is the nurf comfirmed? When will it come?

PvP has had "this problem" for too long now, I stopped playing even before the patch came out...

I have pointed out, already before the patch came, that these sets are OP. If we had a competent team... They would avoid introducing this items/sets before the patch goes live. I wonder, how they draw their conclusions about feedback and how much experience these developers really have in mmos, they act as if they don't know that stamina classes have had their spot on the bright side of pvp for too long now.. Instead, they give them candies and goodies for free, patch after patch..

Haquor · November 2016

Just add a proc global cooldown to battle spirit and be done with it. I cant help but thnk that the majority of the debates on this forum could be resolved through CAREFUL modifications to battle spirit at times.

And high profile streamers coming into this thread to *** about a lack of perspective and well rounded view of pve and pvp is fakn laughable. Heaven forbid someone should speak out in favor of the other side of the game (you know... the 90% of it) without a care for yours.

Q the "oh its taking skill out of pve and is therefore bad for the game as a whole" arguments.

Lieblingsjunge · November 2016

I still don't get how PvEers can defend stacking proc-sets in PvE. Your DPS is increased based on RNG? No, just no. It shouldn't even be a factor. Sure, one proc-set is fine, but 2 or 3 of them at the same time? That can't be defended, not from a PvP, nor from a PvE-perspective.

BalticBlues · November 2016

The OP is spot on. PvE players invested hundreds of hours and hundred thousands of gold into their favorite sets.
Nerfing the sets into the ground for PvP - like so many things have been nerfed into the ground - is hardly a fair solution.

ZOS could remove proc sets from PvP, I would be fine with that. But I am tired of notorious PvP whiners crippling PvE more and more. Moreover: PvP once was fun. Currently PvP is only a snare game. Not fun at all. The real problem of PvP is endless snaring and repetitive gameplay. Fix that first ZOS, before touching what is working, at least in PvE. PvE is what the majority of people are playing.

SHADOW2KK · November 2016

AdicusDio wrote: »

I could care less about PvP. People teleport 100' forward and snare you, and you are dead by the time you get out. That's OK? That drove me from Cyrodill. That and everyone seems to have unlimited health, magic, and stam regen. Watched one get somehow survive 6 high cp players wailing on him for 2 minutes and he shrugged it off. But a set bothers you? Gimme a break.

Why do you care about Viper in PvE? I use it, but took a huge crit drop from the set it replaced, so it evens out. It also helps to slightly offset constant stam usage. I actually use 3 of the new sets after ignoring them for awhile. They are fun, but I'm playing mostly vet pledges and they don't turn me into a super hero just by equipping them.

I could also care less about apologists that defend everything regardless of merits, go wipe your nose off. The sets are doing what they are supposed to do. Don't like, don't wear them. Leave the whining crud OUT of PvE.

Lol, so you are whining, but whining about whiners?

Logic ftw eh.

Maybe adapt and l2p

STEVIL · November 2016

AzuraKin wrote: »

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Certain proc sets like vipers are broken and not working as intended for PvP or PVE . Getting fixed is not a nerf .

actually if you read the tool tip then it is doing exactly what is intended...it's just that they could make some changes to it so it does not constantly proc and also give it a cool down (e.g. 10% chance and 5 second cool down or something like that)

i'm not against making changes to sets for balance, but just make sure you know what the set is supposed to do before you say it is "not working as intended for PvP or PvE"

rofl tool tip says when doing melee damage, yet it procs of guess what? bow attacks which are guess what? not melee attacks.

Roflmao

I dont know of anyone saying "dont fix bugged sets" so your strawman-fu is strong.

I do know a lot of people seem to be calling for nerfs to certain sets (often erroneously called procs whether they involve random chance or not) if the set lists its damage boosts separately.

Wollust · November 2016

BalticBlues wrote: »

The OP is spot on. PvE players invested hundreds of hours and hundred thousands of gold into their favorite sets.
Nerfing the sets into the ground for PvP - like so many things have been nerfed into the ground - is hardly a fair solution.

ZOS could remove proc sets from PvP, I would be fine with that. But I am tired of notorious PvP whiners crippling PvE more and more. Moreover: PvP once was fun. Currently PvP is only a snare game. Not fun at all. The real problem of PvP is endless snaring and repetitive gameplay. Fix that first ZOS, before touching what is working, at least in PvE. PvE is what the majority of people are playing.

Because PvE is not repetitive at all.

Integral1900 · November 2016

There will NEVER be balance until the pve and pvp systems use separate rules for gear and abilities, what the players want from is so utterly incompatible that fixing one will always screw over the other.