Please leave the new sets for PVE alone!

Korah_Eaglecry

AdicusDio wrote: »

I could care less about PvP. People teleport 100' forward and snare you, and you are dead by the time you get out. That's OK? That drove me from Cyrodill. That and everyone seems to have unlimited health, magic, and stam regen. Watched one get somehow survive 6 high cp players wailing on him for 2 minutes and he shrugged it off. But a set bothers you? Gimme a break.

Why do you care about Viper in PvE? I use it, but took a huge crit drop from the set it replaced, so it evens out. It also helps to slightly offset constant stam usage. I actually use 3 of the new sets after ignoring them for awhile. They are fun, but I'm playing mostly vet pledges and they don't turn me into a super hero just by equipping them.

I could also care less about apologists that defend everything regardless of merits, go wipe your nose off. The sets are doing what they are supposed to do. Don't like, don't wear them. Leave the whining crud OUT of PvE.

Thank god, we dont need your whiney self in PvP.

Malamar1229

All they have to do is add a line "this proc chance is reduced to X % in PvP" and then any nerfs will have zero impact on PvE.

Danksta

UntrustedExistenz wrote: »

I disagree.
Proc sets are overpowered and it's a fact (dealing such amount of dmg by striking light attack is redicolous).
I don't like whining of pvpers but this time they have right. PvP is unplayable at the way as it is.
And you need to rescpect another point of view of playing eso. Don't get me wrong, I'm more PVE than PVP so we are at the same team,but with a nerf of overpowered proc sets you will be slighty weaker (but still strong af). At the other side pvp players can have a good experience at their playing without waiting for instakill.

We (PvE and PvP players) should both be on the same team, and that team should be "Team Balance PvE and PvP Separately".

Danksta

Integral1900 wrote: »

There will NEVER be balance until the pve and pvp systems use separate rules for gear and abilities, what the players want from is so utterly incompatible that fixing one will always screw over the other.

It's amazing to me how obvious this is yet I hardly see it mentioned on these forums.

Doctordarkspawn

Danksta wrote: »

UntrustedExistenz wrote: »

I disagree.
Proc sets are overpowered and it's a fact (dealing such amount of dmg by striking light attack is redicolous).
I don't like whining of pvpers but this time they have right. PvP is unplayable at the way as it is.
And you need to rescpect another point of view of playing eso. Don't get me wrong, I'm more PVE than PVP so we are at the same team,but with a nerf of overpowered proc sets you will be slighty weaker (but still strong af). At the other side pvp players can have a good experience at their playing without waiting for instakill.

We (PvE and PvP players) should both be on the same team, and that team should be "Team Balance PvE and PvP Separately".

Amen to that.

Valencer

All those top tier PvE tanks running tremorscale deserve to remain unaffected by any tremorscale nerfs. Luckily there are exactly 0 so that's not going to be much of a problem.

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill...

silky_soft

Nerf blocking so pve can cry more haha

TequilaFire

Actually restore blocking and make the proc effects blockable and PvP would be happier.
Point is there should always be a viable defense for the sets introduced.

Biro123

Danksta wrote: »

Integral1900 wrote: »

There will NEVER be balance until the pve and pvp systems use separate rules for gear and abilities, what the players want from is so utterly incompatible that fixing one will always screw over the other.

It's amazing to me how obvious this is yet I hardly see it mentioned on these forums.

I see it mentioned a lot. Don't agree with it - but I do see it. Simply put, I think they should be able to introduce sets that are good for one but poor for the other (so will only be used in that one aspect of the game) - but currently they seem to only manage the combination of good for one but overpowered for the other.

WuffyCerulei

BalticBlues wrote: »

The OP is spot on. PvE players invested hundreds of hours and hundred thousands of gold into their favorite sets.
Nerfing the sets into the ground for PvP - like so many things have been nerfed into the ground - is hardly a fair solution.

ZOS could remove proc sets from PvP, I would be fine with that. But I am tired of notorious PvP whiners crippling PvE more and more. Moreover: PvP once was fun. Currently PvP is only a snare game. Not fun at all. The real problem of PvP is endless snaring and repetitive gameplay. Fix that first ZOS, before touching what is working, at least in PvE. PvE is what the majority of people are playing.

I most certainly agree with the fact that PvE suffers too much from PvPers whining instead of playing. However, it's not so much a snare game, but more so how long can you survive. If you can purge the snare, sweet. I play a magplar a lot, and holy crap, people can't snare me so easily. Also killing me either takes quick action or 5v1, since magplar have heavy duty heals.

RazorCaltrops

Not every nerf demand come from PVPers as the most recent nerf came because of PVE players.


VMA DW got nerfed because our beloved PVE magicka users' qq.

Destruent

RazorCaltrops wrote: »

Not every nerf demand come from PVPers as the most recent nerf came because of PVE players.


VMA DW got nerfed because our beloved PVE magicka users' qq.

Stam still has the highest ST-DPS.

And still...a nerf to multiple proccsets (e.g. global cooldown on offensive dmg-proccs) wouldn't effect pve at all. Bc using more then one proccset is a dps-loss (only exception is vMSA).

STEVIL

Awakatanka wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

@Fvh09NL
Imo killing someone with 1-2 attacks - does it really matter whether thry were a couple set procs or an ambush, incap, execute? Dead is dead.
Ganked by stygian set stealth takedown bow-bush worse that vipers?

Imo "free" and "set does it for you" are not critical because sets ave been doing it for you all along. Hundings procs constantly giving you crits and bonus dmg that boost every attack you make. If you get one dot plus weave and attack going it likely does more than viper over 4s period. Key is, hundings adds to all be it ranged or not. Viper requires you to melee.

Proc sets or rather recap sets are the current scapegoat for what is to some a problem.

Damage, specifically burst damage, is easier to drive up than it was before. This is from boosted enchants, poisons, drop set availability etc.

Spriggans may give you more than viper too.

How about battle spirit adding "reduce all damage from all sources by 50% more for 15s"?

That should make every fight last long enough to "give elite skill/gear a chance" or does it need to be longer?

Those sets make your skill hit harder and can be blocked, dodged etc. So it is still your skill against his skill. With those new sets you can be killed by the set without any of your skills

If you dont believe your sets are killing the enemies, ehy dont we see more folks running in white setless gear and saving all thst grind time since their skills are whats killing the enemy?

If they change recap to show how much damage was due to sets for all sets, not just the current scapegoats, it would be telling.

Btw, elegant set, bahara curse and others also provide buffs to damage from non-skill-using light attacks.
Should they also be nerfed since we have decided clicking anything but skills is bad?
What about the set where dodge roll puts a rune down go boom - hunt something?
Briarhart... its crits cause more.
Twin susters damage off block not skills.

Seems the number of sets where non-skills attacks trigger either damage itself (or non-recao damage) is pretty long... includIng NMG.

STEVIL

THIRD LAW OF NERFODYNAMICS
The gear i wear when killing = good.
The gear others wear when killing me = bad.

stevepdodson_ESO888

AzuraKin wrote: »

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Certain proc sets like vipers are broken and not working as intended for PvP or PVE . Getting fixed is not a nerf .

actually if you read the tool tip then it is doing exactly what is intended...it's just that they could make some changes to it so it does not constantly proc and also give it a cool down (e.g. 10% chance and 5 second cool down or something like that)

i'm not against making changes to sets for balance, but just make sure you know what the set is supposed to do before you say it is "not working as intended for PvP or PvE"

rofl tool tip says when doing melee damage, yet it procs of guess what? bow attacks which are guess what? not melee attacks.

oh wow...sorry...i had know idea you could do that...no wonder people are annoyed with this set then

Rev Rielle

They need to be fixed for PvE too I think. Some proc focused builds are just silly. I never really though about it till seeing some in action; there's just basically zero skill/engagement required on the player's part. The game shouldn't be like this, no one should want it to head further down this path. Something likely should be done now.

xRIVALENx

Integral1900 wrote: »

There will NEVER be balance until the pve and pvp systems use separate rules for gear and abilities, what the players want from is so utterly incompatible that fixing one will always screw over the other.

Exactly this!

RazorCaltrops

Destruent wrote: »

RazorCaltrops wrote: »

Not every nerf demand come from PVPers as the most recent nerf came because of PVE players.


VMA DW got nerfed because our beloved PVE magicka users' qq.

Stam still has the highest ST-DPS.

And still...a nerf to multiple proccsets (e.g. global cooldown on offensive dmg-proccs) wouldn't effect pve at all. Bc using more then one proccset is a dps-loss (only exception is vMSA).

Agree with you completely.

Just wanted to give an example that not every nerf/balance demands come from PVP community.

Zedrian

Rev Rielle wrote: »

They need to be fixed for PvE too I think. Some proc focused builds are just silly. I never really though about it till seeing some in action; there's just basically zero skill/engagement required on the player's part. The game shouldn't be like this, no one should want it to head further down this path. Something likely should be done now.

Even with proc sets, if you don't know your rotation well enough, you are still useless in Vet trials.

STEVIL

Zedrian wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

They need to be fixed for PvE too I think. Some proc focused builds are just silly. I never really though about it till seeing some in action; there's just basically zero skill/engagement required on the player's part. The game shouldn't be like this, no one should want it to head further down this path. Something likely should be done now.

Even with proc sets, if you don't know your rotation well enough, you are still useless in Vet trials.

Proc set players using skills? Some serms to not think thstd needed?

But, yes, agree.

Imo it boils down to this, if proc/recap sets get nerfed enough that the total best burst damage their maxed builds can do isnt sufficient to end pvp fights quickly against traditional high dps med armour builds AND the proc set build sustained dps is lower than comparable skilled end game pve/pvp med armor builds, seems to me they quickly go the way of the dodo or ashen grip. Cant win on burst and cant get top drawer dps make a killer combo.

Destruent

Zedrian wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

They need to be fixed for PvE too I think. Some proc focused builds are just silly. I never really though about it till seeing some in action; there's just basically zero skill/engagement required on the player's part. The game shouldn't be like this, no one should want it to head further down this path. Something likely should be done now.

Even with proc sets, if you don't know your rotation well enough, you are still useless in Vet trials.

You can go a step further: Proccsets (different from monstersets in this case) are useless in trials if you know what you are doing.

SaRuZ

I say add more, ALOT more for all builds. Add more craftable sets too. Variety is a solution imo. This whole "OP! OP! L2P!" Is immature. You say people suck because they 'need' a proc set all because you suck and can't kill them. What a bunch of hypocrites. Never in my life have I played a game where people are crying and getting pissy over gear or something being 'OP.'

From my experience in other games. You use what gets the job done. Not everyone wants to spin around in circle for 10 minutes spamming the same skills until one person gets that last lucky shot. Proc sets made PVP more fluid and fast pace and certainly made PVE a lot more fun. No matter what ZoS does there will always be a problem because all you hardcore 1337 people think you're the *** yet can't adapt when metal comes to meat.

STEVIL

But.. adapting my last mets gold gear costs...

Taylor_MB

STEVIL wrote: »

Awakatanka wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

@Fvh09NL
Imo killing someone with 1-2 attacks - does it really matter whether thry were a couple set procs or an ambush, incap, execute? Dead is dead.
Ganked by stygian set stealth takedown bow-bush worse that vipers?

Imo "free" and "set does it for you" are not critical because sets ave been doing it for you all along. Hundings procs constantly giving you crits and bonus dmg that boost every attack you make. If you get one dot plus weave and attack going it likely does more than viper over 4s period. Key is, hundings adds to all be it ranged or not. Viper requires you to melee.

Proc sets or rather recap sets are the current scapegoat for what is to some a problem.

Damage, specifically burst damage, is easier to drive up than it was before. This is from boosted enchants, poisons, drop set availability etc.

Spriggans may give you more than viper too.

How about battle spirit adding "reduce all damage from all sources by 50% more for 15s"?

That should make every fight last long enough to "give elite skill/gear a chance" or does it need to be longer?

Those sets make your skill hit harder and can be blocked, dodged etc. So it is still your skill against his skill. With those new sets you can be killed by the set without any of your skills

If you dont believe your sets are killing the enemies, ehy dont we see more folks running in white setless gear and saving all thst grind time since their skills are whats killing the enemy?

If they change recap to show how much damage was due to sets for all sets, not just the current scapegoats, it would be telling.

Btw, elegant set, bahara curse and others also provide buffs to damage from non-skill-using light attacks.
Should they also be nerfed since we have decided clicking anything but skills is bad?
What about the set where dodge roll puts a rune down go boom - hunt something?
Briarhart... its crits cause more.
Twin susters damage off block not skills.

Seems the number of sets where non-skills attacks trigger either damage itself (or non-recao damage) is pretty long... includIng NMG.

Honestly cannot tell if trolling or legitimately don't know what is being discussed.

A set that adds a statistical advantage (unless like 3000 weapon dmg like that bugged werewolf one from a while ago) are fine. They add sustained, semi-predictable dps (which doesn't mean boring or less skill, it allows for counter play with plenty of 'random' skill usage that can happen directly initiated by your opponent - a well placed meteor + streak for example - not undodgable, instant, unseen proc damage).

A set that adds an additional 5k+ damage with little to no conditions to apply and little to no cooldown with no counterplay are bad designs and should be addressed.

Programmed random occurrences are not necessarily a bad thing (the statistical buff from Briarhart for example (which has very strict conditions on it)), but when 3 proc sets can easily be stacked all being undodgeable and very very low 'randomness' to them allowing zero counter play, that is bad design and needs addressing.

Unless otherwise stated it can be assumed "proc sets" = offensive instant damage proc sets that cannot reasonably be dodged. Most common of which are:
• Vipers (undodgeable, also bugged)
• Selena (can be dodged but only if you happened to be dodge rolling before it proc'd)
• Red Mountain (undodgeable)
• Windowmaker (undodgeable, also bugged)
• Skoria (undodgeable, see my other post for more thoughts on this one)
• Velidreth (technically dodgeable, but not if attacker is in melee range)
• Tremorscale (undodgeable)

The reason so many people are against these proc sets are
a) There is little to no trade off between surviability / regen / damage output (the core of PvP) when wearing proc sets. Gank builds use to be glass cannons, now they can be sword and shield and heavy armour.
b) There is no counterplay. Adding HP only goes so far when two people light attacking once with 3 proc sets each can easily do 30k+ undodgeable, burst, unseen damage. (I can post screenshots of damage numbers like this).

No counterplay = bad design. Sets that add statistical advantage (proc based or permanent) boost damage of skills, skills that have animations, that can be countered. Sets that add (especially when they stack) instant undodgable damage (for example LA > Ransack > Bash > Tremor > Viper > Widowmaker) are terrible for a PvP environment.

---

I ran with Veli for 2 days and was disgusted, it's basically like having a free ultimate, I felt completely overpowered and it was only a single proc set. The prevalence of proc sets has made me a better player though, I've revamped my no proc build and it is bliss killing perma blockers who ransack every 4 seconds to proc viper and tremor. It's no easy though, I'm always conscious that I'm gimping myself and swapping a few armour pieces could basically give me 2 ultimates on demand.

STEVIL

@Taylor_MB

Several points.

First, no trade-offs for proc sets you deem bad?
Last time i checked, the viper and hundings and nmg have rather similar 2-3--4 pc bonuses.
Lsst time i checked, none have more or less trade-offs.
Last time i checked, most posters from trials and vet dungeons and such say you get higher sustained dps from hundings or nmg than from viper.
So it seems like a viper set is giving up sustained dps for burst dps.
Do you disagree?

Second, undodgeable.
The extra damage from viper is dodgeable if you dodge the attack carrying it. Attack dodged, no damage, no sting.
Just like the extra damage from hundings is dodgeable if you dodge attacks that carry it.
Just like the debuff and its subsequent damage gains are dodgeable if you dodge the attacks carying them.

Third, set adds 5k for little to no...
Have you ever seen what nmg on crit 6s proc debug does in a large trial or group fight vs big bossman? It make the 7k every 4s of vipers pale.

Fourth, no counterplay, free ultimate.
You conveniently left out block. You conveniently left out range.

A ranged build keeping vipers velidreth at range... seems like counterplay. Vel spores are slow. Sure the last meta or two were hvy slam med arm pt blank but... times change.Also, you do realize viper has a clock. Block every 3-4 secs and that swing and sting gets cut down for one block carge.

Finally, basically it seems there is a premise that proc are bad and stats debuts bad... not a conclusion. It' seems stats boost are good is taken on faith, just like if it lists damage separate then it's the set not the player when in fact viper requires more limited set of actions than hundings.

FIRST LAW OF NERFODYNAMIC
Way I used to get kills = good.
Way others kill me now = bad.

Qbiken

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Certain proc sets like vipers are broken and not working as intended for PvP or PVE . Getting fixed is not a nerf .

Ísn´t the definition of a proc set that it has a % change to proc?? Viper isn´t such a set (but I get your point)

Funkopotamus

ku5h wrote: »

Tipical ESO newcommer. Have no idea about real state of the game, but first to spit wisdom all over the forum. You see, many of us actually know how to PvP and enjoy it, so we want some balance changes when we see something not performing in balanced way. I couldn't care less about you and you'r PvE so im all for PvP balance changes, so you can go and wipe you'r nose off.
On a serious note, why ppl cry about nerfing some sets if you play PvE? Is PvE to hard for you? No wander you couldn't stand for 2 sec in PvP. Go L2P boy!

0_o

Luv this guy

Clarkieson

#makelightarmourgreatagain

Taylor_MB

STEVIL wrote: »

@Taylor_MB

Several points.

First, no trade-offs for proc sets you deem bad?
Last time i checked, the viper and hundings and nmg have rather similar 2-3--4 pc bonuses.
Lsst time i checked, none have more or less trade-offs.
Last time i checked, most posters from trials and vet dungeons and such say you get higher sustained dps from hundings or nmg than from viper.
So it seems like a viper set is giving up sustained dps for burst dps.
Do you disagree?

I agree, in my second post in this thread I explicitly stated that to get half decent sustained dps in PvE one would not use proc sets anyway (so a re balancing would not effect any better then average player, and would just cause other players to drop their proc set build sooner then they would have otherwise).

That is precisely what I mean for little to no trade off (in a PvP environment), swapping to Viper's from Hundings you lose 300 weapon damage (probably less then 500 tooltip damage), but you gain an additional 5k burst. So the "little to no trade off" is slightly weaker spammable, but stupid high burst triggered from a light attack.

STEVIL wrote: »

Second, undodgeable.
The extra damage from viper is dodgeable if you dodge the attack carrying it. Attack dodged, no damage, no sting.
Just like the extra damage from hundings is dodgeable if you dodge attacks that carry it.
Just like the debuff and its subsequent damage gains are dodgeable if you dodge the attacks carying them.

Yeah..... but weapon enchants can still proc even if the attack is dodge (posted about this months ago with screenshots (against players and npcs) but no one cared much), and seeming most proc sets will proc off weapon enchants also, dodging does not help much.

Also, you have no idea an opponents light attack is going to do 15k damage until you let them hit you. So either dodge roll or block all their attacks (impossible except for specific builds who then rely on proc sets to put out any damage (it's a vicious cycle)) or let yourself get hit with an insane burst. Perma dodging or blocking is not an appropriate counter to proc sets, it's good they added dodge fatigue and no stamina regen while blocking, but it means perma rolling / blocking to avoid that initial 15k hit (when it might not even be coming)(and every 4 seconds after) is not a counter anymore.

STEVIL wrote: »

Third, set adds 5k for little to no...
Have you ever seen what nmg on crit 6s proc debug does in a large trial or group fight vs big bossman? It make the 7k every 4s of vipers pale.

Unsure of the point. Most people agree proc sets (instant damage etc (not NMG) are terrible for PvE, except people like the OP who believe a rebalance is going to destroy PvE.

STEVIL wrote: »

Fourth, no counterplay, free ultimate.
You conveniently left out block. You conveniently left out range.

A ranged build keeping vipers velidreth at range... seems like counterplay. Vel spores are slow. Sure the last meta or two were hvy slam med arm pt blank but... times change.Also, you do realize viper has a clock. Block every 3-4 secs and that swing and sting gets cut down for one block carge.

Range play doesn't exists in PvP unless PuG v PuG too afraid to engage directly. Gap closers and gap closer snare make sure of that (and 70% Tremor snare... holy *** that is way too much).

Again, blocking or dodging every 4 seconds is not an appropriate counter play, but I guess this is the main difference of opinion. I think a better game design would be to counter skills with skills, dodging and blocking certainly have their place, but the counter to heavy armour proc stackers should not be heavy armour proc stackers (that's how metas start I suppose).

STEVIL wrote: »

Finally, basically it seems there is a premise that proc are bad and stats debuts bad... not a conclusion. It' seems stats boost are good is taken on faith, just like if it lists damage separate then it's the set not the player when in fact viper requires more limited set of actions than hundings.

The reason that premise exists is because statistical sets (proc or not) add damage to abilities that can be seen (give a little due to animation cancelling). Without proc sets you can land 2 attacks every second (3 if board and sword and bashing), with proc sets you can land 5 attacks every 4 seconds (6 if board and sword and bashing) and still 2 every other second. Added to the fact that trading Hundings for Viper effects your tooltip very little but adds huge burst, this is entirely too much damage too quickly from attacks that cannot be seen

The statistical boost to abilities from sets does not compare to huge burst from proc sets. Blocking or dodging every light attack because it might to 15k damage is not the type of counter play this game needs.

---

I really do appreciate your thoughts, and I recognise the irony of me complaining about lack of counterplay when I outplay these builds everyday (I have no doubt someone with equal skill to my own would faceroll me in heavy armour, Blockrose, Viper, Tremor). I just don't believe the primary counter to perma blocking proc stacking should be more perma blocking proc stacking. The only real previous meta I can remember is Mag/Stam plar, the counter to them was (and still is) major defile, not rerolling to almost identical builds.