One of the interesting things I've seen in one of my guilds is the low end CP guys don't want to try the pledges as some don't feel they will be good enough.

I've been trying to convince them other wise but its like pulling teeth.

Hard to learn the mechanics of the dungeon when you don't run them. Even worse though is when the "uber" players won't take on a less experience player so they can learn the dungeon.

But then there is a time and place for everything and we all have that core of guys and gals we like to run with to get the most out of a pledge run.

My all time favorite kick was when a guild mate was looking for a tank so I join them and get kicked form the group seconds later lol.

I'd like to see more transparency with the whole process of kicking. As a high CP tank, it doesn't happen to me. I also don't initiate them unless someone has DC'd and not returned after 5 minutes or so. That said, I think the dialogue should be sent to everyone in the group including the accused:

"Giraffon has initiated a vote to kick The Bad Man. A vote will be cast in 60 seconds"

The Bad Man gets 60 seconds to respond or leave on his own terms. Then after 60 seconds if The Bad Man is still in group the vote prompt appears and the other two players will have a chance to determine the outcome.

The fact that people can initiate a vote to kick anonymously is one of the main problems and the above example would help with that in my opinion.

Ugh, some of the behavior here is just disgusting.

Yesterday, I was doing a random normal on my alt account for the CP leveling. I got nWGT.

The four players are:

• Healer: somewhere between CP200-300
• Tank: CP30-40
• DPS: Level 10
• DPS: me, CP320

Immediately, there is a vote to kick the level 10 that's in the group. I vote no, and the kick fails. Another vote. And I vote no again. This happens a few times before the tank speaks up and screams in all-caps "THIS IS THE HARDEST DUNGEON IN THE GAME" (lol, please, only 4th hardest) and that we simply cannot have a level 10 in the group. And does another vote-kick, which I again veto.

At this point, I explain to the level 10, who by now has said that this is his first week playing the game, that WGT is indeed harder than most other dungeons and not a good place for a newbie. That he should probably leave, but that I would not forcibly kick him. It's amazing what a little bit of courtesy like actual communication can do, because at that point the lowbie thanks me for explaining the situation and offers to leave on his own if I want him out of the group (and only if I want him out; he doesn't care what the other two want because the other two didn't bother to treat him with any respect). At this point, I just wanted to spite that *** of a tank, so I said that he can stay and that I have no qualms about carrying him (all normal dungeons are jokes and except for certain mechanics, can be soloed by any good player), and the tank then threatens to leave if the level 10 isn't removed.

Anyway, we do a pull, and it turns out that this tank who is so hell-bent on vote-kicking doesn't even have a taunt and just runs around attacking with a bow. After that pull, I commented that if there's anyone who needs to be kicked, it's a "tank" who doesn't have a taunt. The "tank" rage-quits, I slot the Undaunted taunt on my off-bar, and we proceed through the dungeon until the Group Finder gets us a replacement tank (a level 13 player, but at least he has a taunt). Anyway, we complete nWGT with no difficulty, and the two lowbies were good about following instructions regarding mechanics. Yes, I did carry the group and did 70-90% of the DPS, but if I was not prepared for the possibility of having to carry people, then I should not have PUG'ed in the first place.

1. Use vote-kick only as a last resort. Talk to people. This is supposed to be a social game, so stop being so anti-social. It's amazing how receptive most people are to reasonable, polite requests. For example, last week, I picked up someone from zone chat for a vet DLC pledge, and they were sub-CP160. I asked if they had ever completed this dungeon in vet mode, and then explained that it was very difficult and not really suitable for someone with limited experience, and they left on their own. Or in yesterday's nWGT pledge, after I explained things to the level 10, they offered to leave if I wanted them to.
2. For normal dungeons, any good player should be able to solo it (except for a few places where boss mechanics get in the way). In my experience, the people who most want to kick are the players who want people to carry them and are aghast at the possibility of actually having that turned around on them.
3. CP is overrated. I guarantee you that my alt account with around 300 CP can out-DPS most of the CP-capped 561 players you'd find in a random group. Skill is more important than levels, and I've seen way too many CP561 players who do things like Ambush-spam, light-attack spam, etc. Even in groups with good CP-capped players, my alt account would often match them in DPS simply because I have a cleaner, tighter rotation. Of course, someone with equal or better skill will do better than me with their higher CP, but the point is that skill level and experience matter more than CP and levels.

code65536 wrote: »

Ugh, some of the behavior here is just disgusting.

Yesterday, I was doing a random normal on my alt account for the CP leveling. I got nWGT.

The four players are:

• Healer: somewhere between CP200-300
• Tank: CP30-40
• DPS: Level 10
• DPS: me, CP320

Immediately, there is a vote to kick the level 10 that's in the group. I vote no, and the kick fails. Another vote. And I vote no again. This happens a few times before the tank speaks up and screams in all-caps "THIS IS THE HARDEST DUNGEON IN THE GAME" (lol, please, only 4th hardest) and that we simply cannot have a level 10 in the group. And does another vote-kick, which I again veto.

At this point, I explain to the level 10, who by now has said that this is his first week playing the game, that WGT is indeed harder than most other dungeons and not a good place for a newbie. That he should probably leave, but that I would not forcibly kick him. It's amazing what a little bit of courtesy like actual communication can do, because at that point the lowbie thanks me for explaining the situation and offers to leave on his own if I want him out of the group (and only if I want him out; he doesn't care what the other two want because the other two didn't bother to treat him with any respect). At this point, I just wanted to spite that *** of a tank, so I said that he can stay and that I have no qualms about carrying him (all normal dungeons are jokes and except for certain mechanics, can be soloed by any good player), and the tank then threatens to leave if the level 10 isn't removed.

Anyway, we do a pull, and it turns out that this tank who is so hell-bent on vote-kicking doesn't even have a taunt and just runs around attacking with a bow. After that pull, I commented that if there's anyone who needs to be kicked, it's a "tank" who doesn't have a taunt. The "tank" rage-quits, I slot the Undaunted taunt on my off-bar, and we proceed through the dungeon until the Group Finder gets us a replacement tank (a level 13 player, but at least he has a taunt). Anyway, we complete nWGT with no difficulty, and the two lowbies were good about following instructions regarding mechanics. Yes, I did carry the group and did 70-90% of the DPS, but if I was not prepared for the possibility of having to carry people, then I should not have PUG'ed in the first place.

1. Use vote-kick only as a last resort. Talk to people. This is supposed to be a social game, so stop being so anti-social. It's amazing how receptive most people are to reasonable, polite requests. For example, last week, I picked up someone from zone chat for a vet DLC pledge, and they were sub-CP160. I asked if they had ever completed this dungeon in vet mode, and then explained that it was very difficult and not really suitable for someone with limited experience, and they left on their own. Or in yesterday's nWGT pledge, after I explained things to the level 10, they offered to leave if I wanted them to.
2. For normal dungeons, any good player should be able to solo it (except for a few places where boss mechanics get in the way). In my experience, the people who most want to kick are the players who want people to carry them and are aghast at the possibility of actually having that turned around on them.
3. CP is overrated. I guarantee you that my alt account with around 300 CP can out-DPS most of the CP-capped 561 players you'd find in a random group. Skill is more important than levels, and I've seen way too many CP561 players who do things like Ambush-spam, light-attack spam, etc. Even in groups with good CP-capped players, my alt account would often match them in DPS simply because I have a cleaner, tighter rotation. Of course, someone with equal or better skill will do better than me with their higher CP, but the point is that skill level and experience matter more than CP and levels.

Well done helping the lowbies.

There is a poll on penalty related to this discussion: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/293860/group-finder-penalty

No reaction from ZOS yet. Please vote.

You aren't elite if you need an optimized group to complete an instance. That means you borderline suck yourself...

Before the time penalty, people would queue for random dungeons and drop immediately if they got one they didn't want (i.e. lol bye when landing in a dlc dungeon, or keep queing until they got the pledge dungeon to get the xp for the "random" on top of the pledge). I'm pretty sure that's why the time penalty was originally put in the group finder, not to penalize people for getting kicked, but to penalize people for dropping. The vote kick "feature" actually came at the same time as the time penalty, so I think the consequences there just weren't well thought out.

I think the group finder's a good tool that needs some tweaking. It would be nice to have some options or filters, and I think more players might be more comfortable using it if they had more control with it and could narrow parameters to suit their needs and expectations.

I know if my first dungeon experience in ESO had been landing randomly in the hardest normal dlc dungeon in the game on pledge day with a bunch of impatient max level players kicking me instantly or else dragging me through like it's a race and cursing my lack of skills and experience, I probably wouldn't have gone back.

How many people here really want to do ICP or WGT with a 3 people under CP100 and you would be the only 561.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sibenice wrote: »

I've recently come back to the game. And decided to try some dungeons. I got kicked for being low CP (240) and low dps.

Instead of whining about getting kicked I took a hard look at myself. My gear wasn't great and my ability/rotation set up was out of date.

I asked around for a way to check my damage and was informed of an addon. Got that downloaded, looked up a build, crafted myself a Julianos set (magicka sorc) with three purples and two oranges, paid to reset all my skill points, set up the new build, went out and leveled some skills I hadn't had before and tried again.

I'm definitely still not up there with the best. The rest of my gear is not great (3pc Vicious Death and 3pc Willpower with bad traits because that's all I could afford) and I'm still considered low CP but I'm doing much more damage than I was before and have successfully completed all dungeons I've attempted since.

Do I think it's okay that people are getting kicked as they join the dungeon just for their level? Absolutely not. If lower level CP people shouldn't be in some of the dungeons then they shouldn't be able to join them in the first place. Especially when you're queuing random for the bonuses. But that's not up to the players to fix.

I also think a 15m debuff for being kicked is stupid. The queue times take long enough as a dps that it basically means you have to wait 40-50m just to get into another dungeon.

TLDR: If you're getting kicked see what you can do to improve yourself before you go getting butthurt over the people who kicked you. But the system does need changes to make it more reasonable for new and vet players alike.

It has not been said better. Is the system as it currently is broken? Yes. One Tamriel's effect on group content gave us a good hard look at the systems flaws and how the current scaling has not taken into account a good year or two of design clash, now we're really feeling it.

But at the same time, part of the onus is on players. And I'm very glad someone took the opportunity to improve.

@Sibenice I tip my hat to you.

The problem isn't if people are or aren't trying to improve themselves. The problem is you'll get kicked before people even give you a chance to see if it can be done.

People will kick people over and over and wait for hours and not finish the dungeon where maybe that person who is on the cusp or slightly below what you wanted would have allowed you to finish.

Not to mention getting a 15 min time when you are in the group for literally less than 15 seconds.

By choosing Vet instead of Norm, you are telling the team you are in essence qualified for the job. When you get kicked it is a majority vote. So whats the problem?

Without the 15min. rule, the effect of unready players joining GF would be out of control, you would be constantly kicking CP10s from Vets for who knows how long until you actually find someone ready for it because everyone seems to think they are entitled to run any dungeon they want at whatever level they want. That's why the timer should stay.

Once the entitled get their way, all of these multiple threads that pop up daily about the same exact subject will turn into something entirely different and just as worse.

DPShiro wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Bramir wrote: »

You aren't elite if you need an optimized group to complete an instance. That means you borderline suck yourself...

Good players don't need an optimized group, they want a group that knows what they are doing to make the run take a fraction of the time, and spend the saved time doing other things.

For players who run several alts, doing pledges etc the difference between 20 min and 2h is significant.

That why we need more parameters to the group finder;
Speed run, new player, max cp etc

To each his/her own, but I find that sort of run boring in the extreme. Challenge = fun.

Paying challenging content with good players, like vMoL is really fun!
....playing easy content with mentally challenged people are not.

They are mentally challenged because they haven't done it 10 times before?

And if the content is that easy, why aren't you soloing it?

Tawniey wrote: »

I really had hoped that a casual game like this one would not foster the kind of elitist players that I see engaging in this kind of behavior.

CP level does not equal skill. CP level does not even always equal experience. Not only from the fact that low level CPs could have run far more trials than say, a high level CP who mostly sticks to crafting or overworld content-- but also-- I know multiple people, including myself, who have more than one account because of the limited character slots. I'm max CP on one account, but my second just barely got to c160, and my third isn't even champion leveled yet. I lead trials with my guild on the regular, and know how to build a competent character for team events. But if someone were to see me on my c160 account, who didn't know me before hand, I could reasonably expect to be kicked from a dungeon run, and that's some serious horse manure.

Now, I do not expect there to be a paradigm shift where people expect lower CP levels to be incredibly experienced, but I do think that as a community, we need to work on fixing the behavior that automatically assumes that an arbitrary number assigned to your character based on points earned through combat is indicative of overall skill in the game. Previous games I've played have used achievement points as a similar marker, and it is just as ridiculous.

What you are telling others when you say "I refuse to engage in content that is not maximum efficiency, and will judge this by a number over your characters head" is really "I want to feel superior to others while playing this video game, so I refuse to give anyone else a chance to prove their skill."

Obviously the important question here is, what on Nirn do you do with 36 characters?!?

I mean I love alts too, but 12 is more than enough, if you keep them all updated with gear, ready for Trials etc.and I can't even imagine the time needed for (36!!) characters.