Sallington wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

What is EPEEN? I play for improving as a player, for the challenge and ultimately for the fun. I don`t need aynthing more.

I think it`s a pretty spoiled attitude to not only be the horse demanding a carrot to chase, no, but also demanding that the carrot can be sold to cover any cost with it. Especially when considering the income gap between both endgame worlds, pvp and pve.

So you can raid for your reasons, but other people's reasons make them spoiled.

Got it.

I only solo or duo.... your raids dont matter to me.

Thanks for further proving my point I guess?

Well, even if raids dont matter to me, I am usually quite a nice person who is enjoying other people having fun with whatever they do. I was progress raiding in wow for several years and can somehow relate to where OP is coming from.

But since I was able to acquire another perspective by being PvP only I feel OP is completely ignoring the bigger picture (income gaps & stuff) in favor of defending his personal gain and the gain of people he considers part of his community.

I can beat anyone in PvP, burn through so many stacks of potions a day when PvPing, I don`t think there´s any difference in quality of play or spendings. Yet I am not here claiming to be a super special 1% snowflake that needs to be subsidized by endless streams of sellable gold rewards.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

What is EPEEN? I play for improving as a player, for the challenge and ultimately for the fun. I don`t need aynthing more.

I think it`s a pretty spoiled attitude to not only be the horse demanding a carrot to chase, no, but also demanding that the carrot can be sold to cover any cost with it. Especially when considering the income gap between both endgame worlds, pvp and pve.

Pve players must now give up hours of time each week to have the resources to do their preferred content. You don't have to farm for flowers to keep a healthy stock of potions. I know this for a fact because I pvp too. I can make more money pvping all day that I can in pve, no matter how many hours I sink and no matter how good the rng is to me. A single PK in IC could be worth 20k gold. To make that much in a single kill in trials would take a great deal of favor from the RNG gods and assumes no cost associated with completing said trial from start to finish (which is the only way you'll have a chance at a lucrative drop, which I might remind you here is the going away in the next update; in other words, the whole point of this thread).

Your conception of the "wealth gap" between pvp and pve is opposite of reality. You don't have to pay for repairs. You can very easily convert your AP into gold, which can be used to offset your potion consumption at a more reliable rate than any trials run would allow for. I think it's a pretty spoiled attitude to be sitting comfortably in a position that allows you to spend the overwhelming majority of your time doing what you want to do, and then take a stance against players who are unjustly having their primary reward system revoked. You don't have to farm; you choose to. Pve players are being forced to farm for no reason; the current system is fine and has been what the pve community has asked for and supported since day one.

That was a worth a good laugh. Have you ever done PvP? I mean not the kindergarden handholding raid version. I mean just you solo out there fighting people for the PvP, not the AP. I play for good, challenging fights. You do not earn much that way.

I'd wager that nearly 3 years of pvp experience (the overwhelming majority of which is solo or duo) is enough to earn my credibility. I have fun when I pvp; what makes you assume that I do not? Do you honestly believe I would partake in content that I do not enjoy? Were that the case, I would not be so adamant about seeing this change to BoE reversed before it hits live. I spent only 4-6 hours in IC during the double TV event last week, and of those few hours I earned over 100k gold, over 90% of which was taken directly from players in a fair fight (not ganking).

Just because you personally do not know how to make money and have fun at the same time does not qualify you to tell players from a completely different form of content (of which you clearly have minimal knowledge at best, you said so yourself) what they may or may not do with their time. If you stepped back for a moment to realize that nobody here is asking for more, rather they are asking for things to remain as they are, maybe you'd start to realize how wrong you are.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

What is EPEEN? I play for improving as a player, for the challenge and ultimately for the fun. I don`t need aynthing more.

I think it`s a pretty spoiled attitude to not only be the horse demanding a carrot to chase, no, but also demanding that the carrot can be sold to cover any cost with it. Especially when considering the income gap between both endgame worlds, pvp and pve.

So you can raid for your reasons, but other people's reasons make them spoiled.

Got it.

I only solo or duo.... your raids dont matter to me.

Which is why your opinion is uninformed and thus unimportant.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

What is EPEEN? I play for improving as a player, for the challenge and ultimately for the fun. I don`t need aynthing more.

I think it`s a pretty spoiled attitude to not only be the horse demanding a carrot to chase, no, but also demanding that the carrot can be sold to cover any cost with it. Especially when considering the income gap between both endgame worlds, pvp and pve.

So you can raid for your reasons, but other people's reasons make them spoiled.

Got it.

I only solo or duo.... your raids dont matter to me.

Which is why your opinion is uninformed and thus unimportant.

Because ESO raiding is fancy science to you? Good one. But since we are talking about income/time investment related issues, general attitude and not ESO raiding per se, your post is irrelevant either way.

@Mojomonkeyman ,

As far as PVP goes, you can if you are as good as stated probably do what 150k AP and more per night ? That's usually what one would consider being Inside the Elite Pvp community no ? If you do that two night in a row you do around 250k which mean Something near 5 reward of the worthy (2k gold + 12 sellable) and you get acces to Akaviri or Other piece which can sell inbetween 10 to 50k depending how Lucky you are with RNG if you go for crates.

That's about what you can get each two night as part of an elite community. So overall almost 35k a night and if you keep on doing once a week you gain a gold item which sell for 100k+ usually. so Overall considering a 5 night a week scenario 250k gold. That's if RNG is on your side and if may depend.

Now on the Other end Pve has the same scenario, we get inbetwee 8 and 12 loot a night, most of us. On all of those some are BoP which makes for no money usually in vet it's over 80% of them. So you receive 1/2 sellable a night and 8 a week, some of them are BiS for specific build while other sell for Nothing.

Overall the last reward is a gold ring which at launch of the trial (what we are experiencing right now) are Worth 500k sometimes... a price very likely to remind me of vicious death ring back at their launch... So overall as for Right now both team have the same income, and we didn't consider on both side the money making scenario (Tv player farming and Normal Trial farming)...

So overall, even if the reward of the worthy should be updated sometime soon, pvp will keep their potential 35k a night for the best among them while pve will drop at 0. (Talk about a spoiled group !)

@Carbonised ,

Lolll, you know your point is valid, we should probably picks up weeds and plant, and go farm mats all around map and we should probably but in the end wouldn't it be the community who's doing that as their only source of income who would loose from it ? The way the economy is build is simple, people who gather stuff around map are really well paid ! If you have Temper and do Resselling in this game you probably carry more cash in your bank account that anyone else.

People who buy what you guys are doing are usually the people to whom you buy some gear, it always was. but it's also true that If you ever have the occasion to bound with an end-game player you'll notice one thing they mostly all got in common, they are an helping bunch.

We craft gear for people who need, take time to help people improve (rotation/gear advice/ etc.) , bring them into stuff they'd never experience (dungeon, trial, etc.) , give away loot when we know someone's been looking for it (sometimes even over 50k one), and give stuff to people when they miss it (potion/gems/etc.), while we pay for the one we receive...

That's too what the end-game community is about, lowering income from those people or lowering their capacity to share stuff through the community also mean creating cluster for this part of the community !

Carbonised wrote: »

potirondb16_ESO wrote: »

@Carbonised ,

Lolll, you know your point is valid, we should probably picks up weeds and plant, and go farm mats all around map and we should probably but in the end wouldn't it be the community who's doing that as their only source of income who would loose from it ? The way the economy is build is simple, people who gather stuff around map are really well paid ! If you have Temper and do Resselling in this game you probably carry more cash in your bank account that anyone else.

People who buy what you guys are doing are usually the people to whom you buy some gear, it always was. but it's also true that If you ever have the occasion to bound with an end-game player you'll notice one thing they mostly all got in common, they are an helping bunch.

We craft gear for people who need, take time to help people improve (rotation/gear advice/ etc.) , bring them into stuff they'd never experience (dungeon, trial, etc.) , give away loot when we know someone's been looking for it (sometimes even over 50k one), and give stuff to people when they miss it (potion/gems/etc.), while we pay for the one we receive...

That's too what the end-game community is about, lowering income from those people or lowering their capacity to share stuff through the community also mean creating cluster for this part of the community !

You know what, basically I agree with you, and agree with this. If you even go way back to my first reply in this thread, you can see just that. I agree. It's not like I'm a biggr fan of BoP than any of you either.

What Mojo and I seem to be arguing about here is that we don't really appreciate the tone of entitlement that comes across from many of these so-called 'hardcore' trial raiders. It seems entitled, somewhat arrogant and it seems like you think you're too good for something as base as picking up flowers. Maybe if you had been more humble and reflected about this, instead of many of you going on the extreme defensive, even so much as to demean others who have different opinions than you, then you wouldn't have gotten these reactions from Mojo and I.

And you're not entirely correct in your assumption about my bank account. I spend a lot of time (or rather, used to spend, now I don't rally play the game any more) picking up stuff and farming and selling stuff. But when 1 motif sets me back 1M, and when 4 new motifs are released every 3 months, guess what, that doesn't really make me a rich person. Sure I don't have to buy motifs, but i want to, hence I'm no fat cat. There you go, it's all about choices. We decide what we do with our gaming time, but we can't expect that all choices will yield a bounty of rewards.

So once again, if you feel grinding vet trials is unrewarding and not fun, well, it's not like anyone's forcing you to do it then.

Bah you know how an MMO works right, 20% of the reason you got in is situationnal, 80% of the reason why you're still playing after two year is the community surrounding you ! Most people have felt the harsh cost of IC release where all the trial had no loot to sell since they were all v12 or v14 and when we knew Nothing as for when the new trial would come. When that happend guild lost over 80% of their core group whom all decide to switch game in order to go Inside one where they could be taken into account by the developper.

Now a scenario which is likely to repeat that experience is about to happend. @Nifty2g group isn't at their first run and they are most likely running those dungeon with already fully equip player who mostly are tied together by time more then content and which he wouldn't like to loose for some stupidity as a BoP system.

On my side, my team is not yet veteran trial material but this fall we recruted a bunch of player. I play in French on N/A so guess how low the community is when 80% of the french population in the continent come from a tiny province counting 6 millions people but we think we have a shot at this, and for the first time we might actually have the right momentum to keep people interested into trial... guess how disapointing that would be if those twelve player we assemble would leave... That would probably be the end of raiding in french on N/A server for a while.

So that's also our position and where we come from, at least me. I do believe this can also explain why we are so eager to protect the attractivity of the trial, because we try to protect the integrity of our team too.

What a shame
that a legitimate post describing a practical issue arisen from the changes of the coming patch update

is drawn into the gutter

of controversities between PVP vs PVE, Elitist vs Non-elitist, etc

potirondb16_ESO wrote: »

@Mojomonkeyman ,

As far as PVP goes, you can if you are as good as stated probably do what 150k AP and more per night ? That's usually what one would consider being Inside the Elite Pvp community no ? If you do that two night in a row you do around 250k which mean Something near 5 reward of the worthy (2k gold + 12 sellable) and you get acces to Akaviri or Other piece which can sell inbetween 10 to 50k depending how Lucky you are with RNG if you go for crates.

That's about what you can get each two night as part of an elite community. So overall almost 35k a night and if you keep on doing once a week you gain a gold item which sell for 100k+ usually. so Overall considering a 5 night a week scenario 250k gold. That's if RNG is on your side and if may depend.

Now on the Other end Pve has the same scenario, we get inbetwee 8 and 12 loot a night, most of us. On all of those some are BoP which makes for no money usually in vet it's over 80% of them. So you receive 1/2 sellable a night and 8 a week, some of them are BiS for specific build while other sell for Nothing.

Overall the last reward is a gold ring which at launch of the trial (what we are experiencing right now) are Worth 500k sometimes... a price very likely to remind me of vicious death ring back at their launch... So overall as for Right now both team have the same income, and we didn't consider on both side the money making scenario (Tv player farming and Normal Trial farming)...

So overall, even if the reward of the worthy should be updated sometime soon, pvp will keep their potential 35k a night for the best among them while pve will drop at 0. (Talk about a spoiled group !)

@Carbonised ,

Lolll, you know your point is valid, we should probably picks up weeds and plant, and go farm mats all around map and we should probably but in the end wouldn't it be the community who's doing that as their only source of income who would loose from it ? The way the economy is build is simple, people who gather stuff around map are really well paid ! If you have Temper and do Resselling in this game you probably carry more cash in your bank account that anyone else.

People who buy what you guys are doing are usually the people to whom you buy some gear, it always was. but it's also true that If you ever have the occasion to bound with an end-game player you'll notice one thing they mostly all got in common, they are an helping bunch.

We craft gear for people who need, take time to help people improve (rotation/gear advice/ etc.) , bring them into stuff they'd never experience (dungeon, trial, etc.) , give away loot when we know someone's been looking for it (sometimes even over 50k one), and give stuff to people when they miss it (potion/gems/etc.), while we pay for the one we receive...

That's too what the end-game community is about, lowering income from those people or lowering their capacity to share stuff through the community also mean creating cluster for this part of the community !

I agree with this sentiment. Were it that more people understood just how many others in the community are helped by the alleged "hardcore raiders that are too sophisticated to pick their own flowers." Let's be honest here, while there may be hardcore raiders present on this thread, it isn't owned or dictated by people who think they have the only valid opinion, nor is anyone here asking for anything unreasonable.

I cannot begin to count the number of people I've taken through content they just weren't ready for. I don't charge people to come on veteran trial runs when there are spots open, or when we just feel like bringing new faces along. But it's important to consider that this is a completely separate topic from what is being discussed here.

The point of this thread is that ESO, on the live server, allows for the occasional loot drop be sold to the community for a price determined entirely by the free market. The term "unreasonable" only applies to those circumstances that involved dishonest practices, and the vast majority of people who participate in this economy (which is virtually everyone to some extent) are doing so fairly and humbly.

There is nothing unfair about asking for things to remain the way they are. The current system is one that benefits the entire community, as many have pointed out. Time spent by those who farm materials for potions is modestly rewarded with a humble (many might say overpriced, but again I point to the free market) price for potions and materials. Those potions and materials are used to aid other players in content, which awards gear that goes back to the community. In some cases, the gear is retained by the raiders who completed the trial, but even in this circumstance is undoubtedly a piece that cannot be sold anyway (like VO or IA).

Again, as many have pointed out already, removal of BoE gear from trials and dungeons breaks this cycle. It's not the players who are to blame for this; we didn't ask for it and we are obviously opposed. If this change goes live, all of the "softcore" (lol, can't help but laugh b/c these labels are so stupid) players will have to compete with everyone else who has to begin farming their own potion materials, and there will be no gear for them to buy.

Basically, those of you who are arguing with us against this change, and would see BoE gear removed from dungeons and trials, will see two things happen when it goes live:
1. You will have a harder time making money from your potions and flowers, because we will have to start doing it ourselves or will buy it from someone else who sees the opportunity to undercut your prices.
2. You will have to spend less time farming for flowers and potions, and more time doing the content yourself. This means you're going to spend hours upon hours learning it and improving your character to get that same gear you could have just purchased from other players. Maybe you are someone who would prefer to earn yourself; there's nothing wrong with that. But that in and of itself is not justification to trash talk people who not only appreciate what you do for the community, but would like to be allowed that discretion as well.

It doesn't matter what form of content each of us prefers, at the end of the day what matters is that we are allowed to make that decision for ourselves. Removal of BoE gear forces a portion of this community to spend time on something they would prefer to spend elsewhere.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

It's a game, you should be able to only do what you like...

"It's a game, so please have material nodes spawn AP as well, I shouldn't be forced to get AP from pvp since I don't like pvp'ing"

"It's a game, so please have Dro-m'Athra motif and celestial motif drop from solo content. I don't like trials and I shouldn't be forced to do trials to get motifs"

"It's a game, so remove BoP from IC sets and Orsinium sets. I don't like doing IC dungeons and Wrothgar dailies, so don't force me to do it if I don't want to"

"It's a game, so remove BoP from Maelstrom weapons and Master weapons. I shouldn't have to do DSA and MA if I don't like it"

"It's a game, so have all content in the game drop all rewards. I should be forced to solo/pvp/pve/trial if I don't want to, but I still want access to everything while doing 2 % of the content"

etc etc etc

Anyway, I believe I made my point clear in the first post in this thread, the aggression and somewhat immature reponses that followed from you three so-called 'hardcore top trial raiders' was a little funny, but this is quickly spiralling towards the inconstructive, so I'm out. Enjoy your raiding.

1. you only need AP to buy siege-weapons and akaviri-motif and to get the sets from rewards of the worthy. You can sell your materials and then buy all of this. --> no problem
2. You can do solo-content, sell the stuff from solo-content and buy the motifs --> no problem
3. you can buy the triphies and open all the vaults in the nex patch to get those sets --> won't be a problem
4. people are constantly asking for a better system especially regarding those maelstromeweapons (token system, master weapons through pvp-rewards...) --> needs to be solved
5. as long as you get something in this 2% which can be exchanged for other things that sounds great isn't it?

the game isn't perfect in it's current state, but it's ok (or even great) for endgame-raiding atm. Why do they change something which is good? People get sets from trials without doing them and raider can get some money to buy potions. Those who sell potions get money from the raiders and can (if they need) buy equipment from raiders. What's the problem with this?

For me, the issue lies in the "need" for potions. Again, sympathetic and you guys should all be able to raid to your heart's content, but I don't see why content that requires you to chug expensive pots is a good idea.

Change alchemy, change the need for pots, but ZoS typically doesn't go back on things. It may help to come.up with alternatives for a world.with BoP. Is BoP a good idea? No, not at all, but I'm not sure any number of player requests will change the course we're on.

It's as much a competitive thing as anything else. Are there some guild who can complete veteran trials without potions? Sure. However, if trial guild A currently holds number 1 scores for 2/4 trials, guild B has the other two, and guild C is really close to breaking several of those scores but decides to run without potions, do you think guild C is likely to break into the lead for any of those trials? Do you think guilds A and B are likely to agree to lower their efficiency by forgoing potions too?

Essentially, the competitive guilds must maintain the use of potions in order to remain competitive.

Daveheart wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

It's a game, you should be able to only do what you like...

"It's a game, so please have material nodes spawn AP as well, I shouldn't be forced to get AP from pvp since I don't like pvp'ing"

"It's a game, so please have Dro-m'Athra motif and celestial motif drop from solo content. I don't like trials and I shouldn't be forced to do trials to get motifs"

"It's a game, so remove BoP from IC sets and Orsinium sets. I don't like doing IC dungeons and Wrothgar dailies, so don't force me to do it if I don't want to"

"It's a game, so remove BoP from Maelstrom weapons and Master weapons. I shouldn't have to do DSA and MA if I don't like it"

"It's a game, so have all content in the game drop all rewards. I should be forced to solo/pvp/pve/trial if I don't want to, but I still want access to everything while doing 2 % of the content"

etc etc etc

Anyway, I believe I made my point clear in the first post in this thread, the aggression and somewhat immature reponses that followed from you three so-called 'hardcore top trial raiders' was a little funny, but this is quickly spiralling towards the inconstructive, so I'm out. Enjoy your raiding.

1. you only need AP to buy siege-weapons and akaviri-motif and to get the sets from rewards of the worthy. You can sell your materials and then buy all of this. --> no problem
2. You can do solo-content, sell the stuff from solo-content and buy the motifs --> no problem
3. you can buy the triphies and open all the vaults in the nex patch to get those sets --> won't be a problem
4. people are constantly asking for a better system especially regarding those maelstromeweapons (token system, master weapons through pvp-rewards...) --> needs to be solved
5. as long as you get something in this 2% which can be exchanged for other things that sounds great isn't it?

the game isn't perfect in it's current state, but it's ok (or even great) for endgame-raiding atm. Why do they change something which is good? People get sets from trials without doing them and raider can get some money to buy potions. Those who sell potions get money from the raiders and can (if they need) buy equipment from raiders. What's the problem with this?

For me, the issue lies in the "need" for potions. Again, sympathetic and you guys should all be able to raid to your heart's content, but I don't see why content that requires you to chug expensive pots is a good idea.

Change alchemy, change the need for pots, but ZoS typically doesn't go back on things. It may help to come.up with alternatives for a world.with BoP. Is BoP a good idea? No, not at all, but I'm not sure any number of player requests will change the course we're on.

It's as much a competitive thing as anything else. Are there some guild who can complete veteran trials without potions? Sure. However, if trial guild A currently holds number 1 scores for 2/4 trials, guild B has the other two, and guild C is really close to breaking several of those scores but decides to run without potions, do you think guild C is likely to break into the lead for any of those trials? Do you think guilds A and B are likely to agree to lower their efficiency by forgoing potions too?

Essentially, the competitive guilds must maintain the use of potions in order to remain competitive.

I agree that it is a concept associated with competition, but not necessarily between players or guilds. What you say in your comparison between guilds vying for leaderboard spots is undoubtedly true; I'm not arguing that point. But it goes beyond simple competition between guilds.

There are a great many players and guilds out there who are not trying to place on the all-time leaderboards for any given trial. I'd wager that most raiders are competing for a sense of accomplishment, rather than bragging rights. For many players, simply getting through a veteran trial (any trial, doesn't matter which one) is what they seek and why they play. The need for potions exists in these circumstances too... it's not like potions are only useful for obtaining a leaderboard spot. They are, depending on role, class and build, largely necessary to just participate in an effective manner. Those that choose to forego potions in veteran and hardmode trials are giving something up to save that cost, and what they give up can (and in many cases does) mean the difference between beating a boss (or a glorified trash pull, looking at you vMoL) and a wipe.

I can get in board with boe to bop change (oversaturating market with gold jewelry, overall rapid power creep, gold depreciation, casual non-trial type player motivation to run trials, whatever else dev's reasoning behind it is), but you can't just take a fat chunk of the reward out and expect players who are used to running content get their allowance cut off and be ok with it.

If you want an analogy - let's make AP and telvar stone purchased goodies untradeable and see how community reacts to that.

We're not asking for a new carrot - we're asking that if an old carrot has to be taken away, substitute it with something of equal value.

This is PTS week one, i have high hopes for this cause to be taken seriously.

So how will this work? Im not very interested in doing the trials since i just dont enjoy them that much but i like pvp and i like mag dk.

Will these changes mean i need to run Hell Ra hard mode myself to get golden jewelry because i dont expect the gold jewelry to drop in Stonefalls with the rest of the sun set? I dont mind paying for it from people who like to run trials and make most of their eso gold with selling the stuff as long as the means i dont have to farm a trial 294848223838 times to get the drop i want. In also really unlucky with drops so if i cant buy the sun set i will never get it.