The Removal of Bind on Equip from an Endgame Perspective

TheDarkRuler

Not a single ZoS-Statement int his thread hu?
I am (once again) amazed by your community management capacities.

potirondb16_ESO

DocFrost72 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I think I need something clarified; are these dungeons impossible to do without potions? That seems to be the biggest issue you all are facing gold wise, if I read the OP right.

Impossible? No. But very difficult. Popping potions on cooldown helps a lot with sustain--not just the injection of resources, but also Major Endurance/Intellect. It also means that you can get Major Brutality, Savagery, and Sorcery without taking up bar space or rotation time.

For 4-man dungeons, I typically use the dropped trash potions (I used to use crafted potions for dungeons, but that's too cost-prohibitive now). But for vet trials, the difficulty scaling and DPS requirements are such that potions are a de facto requirement. And if you are running competitively, then they're definitely required.

And, yes, they are by far the biggest expense. Gear is expensive too, but that's a 1-time cost. You burn through potions every night.

The core problem with potion is that alchemy yields do not realistically support this kind of use. With maxed passives, a single craft gets you enough potions for 3 minutes of usage. Contrast that with 4 hours for blue food. And on top of that, alchemical nodes yield just one mat.

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Considering Dev team couldn't make it past Vet Ruins 2nd major boss on live stream, they should be sympathetic to the costs of running Veteran Trials.

@Shadesofkin do you have a link to this stream?

Not to sound dismissive of the OP, I am very much sympathetic to the idea of not being able to do what one loves;

Why not adjust tactics around NOT consuming pots? If it is so expensive to run them, then in theory after this change few if any at all will be able to sustain it, making the De facto requirement a luxury instead.

To be honest, if the content is doable with trash pots and some bar changes... I don't know how I feel about it.

EDIT: If content requires you to run equipment that costs more than the reward for the content, maybe the content ought to be looked at, is my point I suppose.

@DocFrost72

Actually in order to give you a comparaison normal boss have 13 millions hp, while in veteran mode they have 69 millions hp... That mean the fight is likely to last 5 time longer in Veteran mode that they would normally do in normal.

Now if you compare, a normal Dps, doing a normal trial is likely to have an average of 14k single target, which mean the fight last for 1 minutes 40 second, that's if you don't have mecanics which are slowing you down etc... let's now say the average people who are going for veteran target do 28k dps so the double of the dps the other one was doing the same fight is now lasting 4 minutes 15 sec. that's when no mecannics is slowing you down.

So now the question is, do you sometime run low on ressource during a normal trial, if so what would happend if that fight lasted 2 1/2 more. Also what would happend to those dps if they were not using those potion and use regular one... they would drop their dps to 24k-25k maybe (as an average) and now your fight would be 5 minutes ! but you still haven't consider the adds and everything else that you also have to clear... so yes sustain become a huge issue really quickly

silvereyes

I rarely PvE at all. I'm an altaholic who loves tinkering with builds and the trading. All my alts are fully leveled in all crafts and hirelings, so my income is pretty secure even once One Tamriel comes out.

Even so, I absolutely hate the new BoP changes for dungeons and trials.

• Encourages "WTS trial clear" sort of cheating behavior
• Increases the wealth gap between farmers and those that actually play content.
• Gates off legendary jewelry behind golden weekly PvP vendor. No way to purchase whole sets.
• Fewer customers with gold to buy my stuff == lower sales for me == sad panda

Lava_Croft

Another aspect of One Tamriel is that it's overly unfair to Argonians and Nightblades, a race and a class that has passives which depend on potions, potions which will be ever harder to create and more expensive to buy.

DisgracefulMind

I raid in The Order of Mundus, an endgame raiding guild for the PC NA server as a core healer. We raid 4-5 nights a week, we push scores, we push progression. Recently we went through a few weeks of some major progression on trials. Due to the increasing cost of mats, potions, and upgrade materials for gear, I spent more gold than I gained, as I know most of the rest of our core raid did as well. We don't raid to get rich, we raid because it is what we enjoy in this game. So if a raid goes badly, we reset, and when we push our clears, RNG often isn't kind to any of us. I think in the past 15 vMoL runs perhaps 4-5 of us pulled anything we could sell. Please put that in perspective. The few times any of us get drops, selling those items allows us to fund our potions for the next week. Potions are an absolute MUST for our raid. We need it for the dps, the better healing, and for our tanks to sustain. We need potions and legendary gear to perform at our best possible quality.

People are also not taking into consideration the theory crafting that goes into end-game raiding. Most of these top guilds are the ones who create the builds that the rest of the population follows and uses to improve themselves as overall players. Theory crafting and build testing requires mats and upgrade materials, both of which are incredibly expensive. We might be in the minority as top-end players, but we are still important to the community.

So we're looking at potions, mats, upgrade materials. We do not want good drops to sell to become rich, we just want them so we can continue to play and enjoy the content in this game. It is ridiculous to even think that completing a Hardmode trial shouldn't reward us more than 10k a week. We put the time, the energy, and the dedication into this content, into perfecting it, into perfecting our builds, and being loyal to the content we love that ZoS provides. But we cannot sustain ourselves if we have nothing to sell.

Most of our core doesn't even get online until the later evening, and then we go into raid. There isn't time for a lot of us to farm all day just to make a stack of potions. A good way for the economy to work is that we work for things to sell, and we use the gold we make to then in turn buy mats and such that we need for raid. What is wrong with this?

I plead with you, ZoS, don't take away the only way we have, as endgame raiders, to make an income. We begged for so long for us to finally have a way to make gold again, you gave it to us, it was well received, the population that was doing trials increased so much, and now you take it away from us again? Your community started raiding again, so many people. Zones asking for trial runs, guilds running more; your content that you improved was being ran more than it has in so long so that people could seek this top-end gear. Don't take that away from anyone. It's not been a negative thing for the community.

Essiaga

I'm not sure many people are realizing that Overland drops will be green, with a small chance a blue, and that Jewelry can't be upgraded.

So you'll be able to get Silks of the Sun in Stonefalls ... but do you really want to yellow armor and weapons with green jewelry? The players who are currently buying these jewelry pieces in purple from Trial runners will have a leg up on all of you who do not yet have them. There will be a pretty good divide there. Enjoy.

• PVPers will not be able to simply play their way. They'll have to get a job farming this or that to fund what they really want to do.
• vTrials leaderboard chases won't simply be able to play their way. They'll also have to get a job farming this or that to fund what they really want to do.

Basically those that want to play any kind of competitive game are getting boned by the BOP changes. Their quality of life goes down and they're going to start questioning weather they care to spend their time doing crap they don't want to in ESO or finding something else they want do with their time.

What's that do to the casual competitive guy?

Lets face it, most players to do Overland content in CP 10-100 green quality gear. Those players are not going to suffer. It's those who currently DO or WOULD LIKE to do PVP or Trials who are going to be less happy.

Normal Trials have been great, but they're already starting to dry up with players completing sets and not going back. The incentive to go back currently is to be able list drops on guild stores. ZOS is going to need to add a 4th daily Undaunted Pledge as incentive to continue running normal Trials soon. Its hard to find a nMaw run already, unless they're farming motifs of course.

Volrion

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I think Zenimax also needs to think about endgame Trials guilds that are better than 90% of the guilds out there but not at that Top 1% everything-hard-mode-on-farm level. My guild might only get 1 or 2 raid nights per week. We have cleared Vet Sanctum hard mode but are still working on Vet Hel Ra hard mode. We have not even cleared Vet Maw of Lorkhaj at all, let alone on hard mode. That 10,000g trophy is not enough to cover costs for top guilds that have this on farm. What about dedicated guilds that are not in the Top 1%? That are still learning this difficult content and it could be months before we get a clear? We will not get a 10,000g trophy, we will not get gold jewelry. We will get nothing. At least now we get some Viper, Dreugh King, Ebon, Sun, Dragon, Red Mountain, Worm, etc., armor that we can sell in guild stores to help defray costs of repairs and potions.

In other words, Zenimax need to give some thought to people still in the middle of this content. And future players who want to tackle this content. The guild that spends 4 hours in a Trial wiping spends just as much on potions and more on repairs than a guild that farms the Trial 4 times in those 4 hours. If the guild with the Trial on farm feels discouraged from trying, how will the guild that is still learning feel? What about new players and guilds that come along in the future? Having guilds attempting this content and organizing and socializing and basing events around progression attempts is good for the game!

I know games need gold sinks to prevent inflation. But I do not think you want the marquee PvE content in the game to be the gold sink. That will discourage current and future players from even trying the content. You should be encouraging players to go into Veteran Trials.

Great post mate. I absolutely agree.

So often I see changes made to this game that are pin pointed on one portion of the player base... With just about every change either the very best players get the hard end of the deal, or the very worst... With this one, I feel like everyone is getting a terrible deal!

We need a healthy economy in this game. BoP really hinders that potential in my opinion.

I truly hope it doesn't go live.

Cherryblossom

I agree with the idea of having one BoP and another BoE, this makes perfect sense to be honest.

Without this I see no real incentive to doing the content once you have the gear and achievements you want.

Trublz

/sign

Riga_Mortis

This will make people less inclined to help others as there is nothing in it for them if they already have all the gear.

Havent read entire thread, so sorry if already brought up.

SlayerTheDragon

What a mess.

code65536

Nifty2g wrote: »

Increasing the amount of drops from a node has literally nothing to do with this, that benefits potion makers not raiders, sure it will lower the price cost, but what does that fix? That doesn't give raiders a viable amount of gold to keep running the content that they want to

It is entirely related because potions are the biggest cost component, and, as you admit, it would lower prices--which is the whole point of such a suggestion. And it's also something that does need to happen. If you think prices are exorbitant now, just want until One Tamriel hits and we lose two Hollow City instances. We have it easy on PC/NA and have the lowest prices of all the servers. If you've seen what people have reported on the forums for Console or EU prices...

Yes, raiding does need a reward. Neither is a standalone silver bullet--raising potion yields would make self-farming more feasible than it is now and would lower the cost for purchases, but it won't address gear cost and it would only alleviate--not fully address--the problem for those who buy potions. But at the same time, injecting more gold into the mix without addressing the wildly unbalanced supply-and-demand equation will serve to just inflate prices even more.

Nifty2g

code65536 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Increasing the amount of drops from a node has literally nothing to do with this, that benefits potion makers not raiders, sure it will lower the price cost, but what does that fix? That doesn't give raiders a viable amount of gold to keep running the content that they want to

It is entirely related because potions are the biggest cost component, and, as you admit, it would lower prices--which is the whole point of such a suggestion. And it's also something that does need to happen. If you think prices are exorbitant now, just want until One Tamriel hits and we lose two Hollow City instances. We have it easy on PC/NA and have the lowest prices of all the servers. If you've seen what people have reported on the forums for Console or EU prices...

Yes, raiding does need a reward. Neither is a standalone silver bullet--raising potion yields would make self-farming more feasible than it is now and would lower the cost for purchases, but it won't address gear cost and it would only alleviate--not fully address--the problem for those who buy potions. But at the same time, injecting more gold into the mix without addressing the wildly unbalanced supply-and-demand equation will serve to just inflate prices even more.

I do not see how adjusting potions has any relevance to this, this is an entirely different subject, adjusting potions really does not affect raiding at all, it is a side issue that comes at the cost of minmaxing. You are saying that having increased nodes will drop potion prices, sure, but in the end that doesn't really help other than dropping the price.
This has no relevance to rewarding trials, because I personally do not believe ZOS needs to change nodes because balancing harvesting and such around minmax trials, that just seems biased and will make a lot of the game unbalanced. The issue here is that trials is not rewarding enough (on the PTS, on Live it is completely fine) to be able to support the demand of the potions and other stuff, that is what should be balanced, not the other way around.

You also mention farming, I do not want to farm, ever. That should be no relevance either, I shouldn't have to farm and furthermore, I do not have time to farm, neither do many other raiders. I would like to have increased nodes but really, I just find that unbalancing in all kinds of the content, it shouldn't be that easily obtainable if you want to drop the prices so much

Carbonised

Nifty, I have a somewhat ambivalent feeling towards your kind of player type, like the proposal you put forward here.

Sure, alchemy is expensive, plants cost a fortune, and it would be nice if they yielded slightly more so that potion prices weren't rising to huge levels (says I, who profits form selling plants and potions and never use them myself).

Sure, BoP sucks, for you and me both, and I much prefer BoE than BoP in general.

On the other hand, your post does appear as somewhat whining. You pretty much say 'I want more rewards from trials, and I don't want to farm, ever, to be able to make my own potions, and I want to be able to do trials 4 evenings a week popping lots of potions and still profit from it". Uhm .. no. I don't think you should have those expectations.

I mean, this is a game that has content for many different things. Solo content, group content, pvp content etc. If you deliberately choose to only play 2 % of the content and live in vet trials, hey, that's your choice. But don't expect to get everything else handed out to you as well.
And don't make it sound like trials are completely unrewarding. Even if you disregard leaderboard rewards and such, just look at Maw. Motifs were sold for 150-200k each, now they sit around 50k a piece. Whiskers were sold for 3-5k before, now they sit around 1.5k-2k each. Even with all trial EQ BoP, you can still earn lots of cash just by selling off motifs and style stones, and with the introduction of Celestial this is just gonna repeat itself.

You know what, maybe 1 of those trial nights you could spend doing solo content, or dungeon content, which still gives you plenty of rewards and income that you could spend on buying stuff.
And who says you have to pop tripots every 45 secs in a trial? It's not a necessity. I've done lots of trials, even some vet trials, and only used cheap trash pots. Sure it would have been more effective to use crafted ones, but it's not a necessity. You have choices. You could cut down on your consumption, or you could spend more time working on your income. I have little respect for someone who spends all their time living in trials and expecting to get all the rewards for doing a minuscle part of the content of the game.

I mean, look at the situation right now, gold jewellery and even regular EQ with the right traits from trials is sitting at 200-500k per item! Do you hear a lot of QQ from those of us who never have a living chance to get any of that EQ? At least all your characters, and your trial buddies, will have all the trial gear and gold jewels that you ever need. Me I'll still be forced to use crafted stuff, stuff found in solo content, and dungeon sets that aren't from Hist, since I don't have trial guilds or trial buddies to help me get that. You win some you lose some, and you have plenty of choices, you just choose not to use them.

What I like about ESO (one of the few things that I like about ESO, actually), is that this is more like an online RPG, not an MMO classic. There are more things to do in ESO than raid raid raid, and my opinion is that ESO should cater to those of us who like to do the broad content, solo, group, pvp, instead of focusing on the few who only want to raid raid raid or pvp pvp pvp.

silvereyes

code65536 wrote: »

Adding more gold to the pot, while nice, won't solve the fundamental underlying problem: supply.

I think you miss the point of this thread. It's not that pots are more expensive than they used to be. It's that they aren't free, so they require income. And making pve content drops all bop takes away the only significant income for players that focus exclusively on pve content.

DisgracefulMind

Carbonised wrote: »

And who says you have to pop tripots every 45 secs in a trial? It's not a necessity. I've done lots of trials, even some vet trials, and only used cheap trash pots. Sure it would have been more effective to use crafted ones, but it's not a necessity. You have choices. You could cut down on your consumption, or you could spend more time working on your income. I have little respect for someone who spends all their time living in trials and expecting to get all the rewards for doing a minuscle part of the content of the game.

You miss the complete point of what it takes to be a completely effective endgame raider. Trash pots in our raids? No. Not happening. Spell power and weapon power pots are a complete must.

Your respect on a player is based on them wanting to spend time in trials? We're not asking to get "all rewards", we're literally just asking to not get our only source of income taken away from us. They plan to have no BoE for us to sell. How can anyone justify that? We just want a way to make some gold lol. There are plenty of people who play this game just to PvP, or just to do casual dungeons, or to quest, and there are some who play just to endgame raid. We happen to have plenty of people in guild, and not just us, but lots of other guilds, who play to ENDGAME RAID. They don't have the time to go and farm for hours, they log on to raid, and then log out after. How is it fair to say they shouldn't get an income?

code65536

Nifty2g wrote: »

I do not see how adjusting potions has any relevance to this, this is an entirely different subject, adjusting potions really does not affect raiding at all, it is a side issue that comes at the cost of minmaxing. You are saying that having increased nodes will drop potion prices, sure, but in the end that doesn't really help other than dropping the price.

But potions are the single biggest expense that you have. And it's an expense that keeps rising.

Nifty2g wrote: »

This has no relevance to rewarding trials, because I personally do not believe ZOS needs to change nodes because balancing harvesting and such around minmax trials, that just seems biased and will make a lot of the game unbalanced. The issue here is that trials is not rewarding enough (on the PTS, on Live it is completely fine) to be able to support the demand of the potions and other stuff, that is what should be balanced, not the other way around.

No, it doesn't change the reward. But it changes the net reward by lowering the costs of running trials.

Nifty2g wrote: »

You also mention farming, I do not want to farm, ever. That should be no relevance either, I shouldn't have to farm and furthermore, I do not have time to farm, neither do many other raiders. I would like to have increased nodes but really, I just find that unbalancing in all kinds of the content, it shouldn't be that easily obtainable if you want to drop the prices so much

And you shouldn't have to if you don't want to. Some raiders farm. Some buy. Some do a mix of both. Whether or not you farm is irrelevant. If you do, it means that you getting enough mats for one night's run shouldn't take over an hour of running in circles. And if you don't, greater supply means that you won't be spending over 100K per week on potions (there goes your BoE reward!).

And if you want to talk balance, then you have to also keep in mind that most players can't complete vet trials, much less the HM vet trials. What's the reward for people who are in progression, spending hours wiping to get their first clear? Those kinds of barriers of entry will not be good for the long-term health of the raiding community.

Yes, making trials rewarding is important, and I dread this new BoP as much as you do. But you also have to look at the bigger picture. How much has the cost of running trials gone up in the past few months? Do you really think that, after we lose separate-faction instances in One Tamriel and even more people come into the game, that these costs won't rise even more down the road? Update 12 will hit us in two places: in the rewards we get, and in the costs that we incur, and it's not sufficient to just look at one while ignoring the other.

Carbonised

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

And who says you have to pop tripots every 45 secs in a trial? It's not a necessity. I've done lots of trials, even some vet trials, and only used cheap trash pots. Sure it would have been more effective to use crafted ones, but it's not a necessity. You have choices. You could cut down on your consumption, or you could spend more time working on your income. I have little respect for someone who spends all their time living in trials and expecting to get all the rewards for doing a minuscle part of the content of the game.

You miss the complete point of what it takes to be a completely effective endgame raider. Trash pots in our raids? No. Not happening. Spell power and weapon power pots are a complete must.

Your respect on a player is based on them wanting to spend time in trials? We're not asking to get "all rewards", we're literally just asking to not get our only source of income taken away from us. They plan to have no BoE for us to sell. How can anyone justify that? We just want a way to make some gold lol. There are plenty of people who play this game just to PvP, or just to do casual dungeons, or to quest, and there are some who play just to endgame raid. We happen to have plenty of people in guild, and not just us, but lots of other guilds, who play to ENDGAME RAID. They don't have the time to go and farm for hours, they log on to raid, and then log out after. How is it fair to say they shouldn't get an income?

No i'm not missing anything, and again, please go easy with the whine here, ok?

Gear is not 'your only source of income', I just stated plain and clear that selling off trial motifs and motif stones is a huge source of income, in Maw as well as now in Crag. You and me both know that Celestial motifs and stones will cost exorbitant amounts of gold for the first month after introduction.

So you have 'no time to farm' but plenty of time to log on and raid raid raid 4 times a week? lol mate, that's a priority. Maybe use 10 % less time on trials and 10 % more time on farming. Again you absolutely disregarded what I wrote about you CHOOSING to spend your time like this. Don't expect to do 2 % of the content in the game and get everything handed to you.

If using pots is a necessity to compete on leaderboards and you have no time to farm, then I'm sorry, but maybe you're just too casual to compete on leaderboards then. I know for sure that tripots and expensive pots aren't a NECESSITY to complete the content, so that's not where the problem lies.

Again let me repeat myself, I'm not a bigger fan og BoP than you are, I don't like it either, but don't make trial people appear as beggars who can barely make ends meet, because that's really a l2p issue aka. learn to prioritize.

Nifty2g

Carbonised wrote: »

Again let me repeat myself, I'm not a bigger fan og BoP than you are, I don't like it either, but don't make trial people appear as beggars who can barely make ends meet, because that's really a l2p issue aka. learn to prioritize.

You can not come in here and tell people what to do, or how to spend their time. I do not tell PvPers to go and do undaunted pledges for their helms, neither does the game force them to anymore, their are other ways for them to do it.
So tell me, why should I have to stop doing what I like so I can buy my potions as another way of not having to farm.

Don't come in here and tell people to prioritize, who are you?

Lava_Croft

silvereyes wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Adding more gold to the pot, while nice, won't solve the fundamental underlying problem: supply.

I think you miss the point of this thread. It's not that pots are more expensive than they used to be. It's that they aren't free, so they require income. And making pve content drops all bop takes away the only significant income for players that focus exclusively on pve content.

Don't really think all PvE loot is BoP.

DisgracefulMind

Carbonised wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

And who says you have to pop tripots every 45 secs in a trial? It's not a necessity. I've done lots of trials, even some vet trials, and only used cheap trash pots. Sure it would have been more effective to use crafted ones, but it's not a necessity. You have choices. You could cut down on your consumption, or you could spend more time working on your income. I have little respect for someone who spends all their time living in trials and expecting to get all the rewards for doing a minuscle part of the content of the game.

You miss the complete point of what it takes to be a completely effective endgame raider. Trash pots in our raids? No. Not happening. Spell power and weapon power pots are a complete must.

Your respect on a player is based on them wanting to spend time in trials? We're not asking to get "all rewards", we're literally just asking to not get our only source of income taken away from us. They plan to have no BoE for us to sell. How can anyone justify that? We just want a way to make some gold lol. There are plenty of people who play this game just to PvP, or just to do casual dungeons, or to quest, and there are some who play just to endgame raid. We happen to have plenty of people in guild, and not just us, but lots of other guilds, who play to ENDGAME RAID. They don't have the time to go and farm for hours, they log on to raid, and then log out after. How is it fair to say they shouldn't get an income?

No i'm not missing anything, and again, please go easy with the whine here, ok?

Gear is not 'your only source of income', I just stated plain and clear that selling off trial motifs and motif stones is a huge source of income, in Maw as well as now in Crag. You and me both know that Celestial motifs and stones will cost exorbitant amounts of gold for the first month after introduction.

So you have 'no time to farm' but plenty of time to log on and raid raid raid 4 times a week? lol mate, that's a priority. Maybe use 10 % less time on trials and 10 % more time on farming. Again you absolutely disregarded what I wrote about you CHOOSING to spend your time like this. Don't expect to do 2 % of the content in the game and get everything handed to you.

If using pots is a necessity to compete on leaderboards and you have no time to farm, then I'm sorry, but maybe you're just too casual to compete on leaderboards then. I know for sure that tripots and expensive pots aren't a NECESSITY to complete the content, so that's not where the problem lies.

Again let me repeat myself, I'm not a bigger fan og BoP than you are, I don't like it either, but don't make trial people appear as beggars who can barely make ends meet, because that's really a l2p issue aka. learn to prioritize.

First of all, drops from the content are the only source of income for plenty of endgame raiders. You are not one, obviously, so you have no clue what you are talking about. Second, sure, there are motif drops from Maw of Lorkhaj once a week per toon. Typically we raid on our same toons because they are specced for that: raiding. So we're looking at a one time drop a week of a 25-50k motif page. Okay, cool. That's nice. The next motifs will go for a bit, sure, but that is literally a temporary thing, those prices will drop. So, yes, gear is the only source of income for endgame raiders.

Moving to the next point, I'm not specifically speaking for myself, I do farm when I can fit it in, but I would prefer not to because then my play time literally becomes just farming and then going to raid. I don't want that. I like to PvP too, I like to explore the rest of the content when I have free time. But there are raiders who do NOT have that option. Why should people be punished because they choose to play a part of the game that they enjoy and have time for? There's no reason why there shouldn't be some sort of reward from completing difficult content. NO ONE IS ASKING FOR EVERYTHING TO BE HANDED TO THEM. IT'S NOT BEING HANDED TO THEM IF THEY WORKED FOR IT. Please quit saying raiders want things handed to them. We don't, we just want to be able to enjoy the content we choose to play and make a somewhat income from it so we can keep doing it.

And calling me casual? Lol. I have top scores in almost all the content on PC NA, please sit down and don't try to insult me. Spell power and weapon power pots ARE A NECESSITY TO COMPLETE CONTENT FOR SCORES WHICH IS WHAT ENDGAME RAIDERS DO- COMPETE FOR SCORES. This is why I said that you do NOT understand endgame raiding.

We are concerned about income for raiders because we have seen this same thing happen before. There was a huge chunk of time from 1.7 until this recent patch where it was absolutely hard to be an endgame pver and make gold. We have one patch where we can make gold, finally, and it's being taken away again. If you have not experienced this, why are you speaking on it? Why are you even in here arguing about it? Is it because you want to have a chance to make endgame raiders feel bad for being that? I don't understand what your deal is if you don't even care about endgame raiding.

Destruent

Carbonised wrote: »

Gear is not 'your only source of income', I just stated plain and clear that selling off trial motifs and motif stones is a huge source of income, in Maw as well as now in Crag. You and me both know that Celestial motifs and stones will cost exorbitant amounts of gold for the first month after introduction.

Those motifs are and will be farmed in normal mode and will be quite cheap. Just look at the prices for the dro'matra-style.

Carbonised wrote: »

So you have 'no time to farm' but plenty of time to log on and raid raid raid 4 times a week? lol mate, that's a priority. Maybe use 10 % less time on trials and 10 % more time on farming. Again you absolutely disregarded what I wrote about you CHOOSING to spend your time like this. Don't expect to do 2 % of the content in the game and get everything handed to you.

We want to play the game in a way we like it: raiding. Others want to pvp only and so on. Why aren't we supposed to be able to do this?
Oh...and try to beat all #1-scores atm with only junkpots. i'm sure you won't be able to and (more important) hold this for a while....but good luck with this.

Carbonised

Nifty2g wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Again let me repeat myself, I'm not a bigger fan og BoP than you are, I don't like it either, but don't make trial people appear as beggars who can barely make ends meet, because that's really a l2p issue aka. learn to prioritize.

You can not come in here and tell people what to do, or how to spend their time. I do not tell PvPers to go and do undaunted pledges for their helms, neither does the game force them to anymore, their are other ways for them to do it.
So tell me, why should I have to stop doing what I like so I can buy my potions as another way of not having to farm.

Don't come in here and tell people to prioritize, who are you?

Uhm, as long as there is freedom of speech, I believe I can come in here and say pretty much what I want.

Sure, you're free to do whatever the heck you want to mate, live in vet trials if that's what you want, but no, I don't think you should get more rewards out of that than what you already get. That's a consequence of the choice you make - deal with it.

Destruent

Carbonised wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Again let me repeat myself, I'm not a bigger fan og BoP than you are, I don't like it either, but don't make trial people appear as beggars who can barely make ends meet, because that's really a l2p issue aka. learn to prioritize.

You can not come in here and tell people what to do, or how to spend their time. I do not tell PvPers to go and do undaunted pledges for their helms, neither does the game force them to anymore, their are other ways for them to do it.
So tell me, why should I have to stop doing what I like so I can buy my potions as another way of not having to farm.

Don't come in here and tell people to prioritize, who are you?

Uhm, as long as there is freedom of speech, I believe I can come in here and say pretty much what I want.

Sure, you're free to do whatever the heck you want to mate, live in vet trials if that's what you want, but no, I don't think you should get more rewards out of that than what you already get. That's a consequence of the choice you make - deal with it.

We don't want to get more, we just don't want to get less than now. Is it that hard to understand?

DisgracefulMind

Carbonised wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Again let me repeat myself, I'm not a bigger fan og BoP than you are, I don't like it either, but don't make trial people appear as beggars who can barely make ends meet, because that's really a l2p issue aka. learn to prioritize.

You can not come in here and tell people what to do, or how to spend their time. I do not tell PvPers to go and do undaunted pledges for their helms, neither does the game force them to anymore, their are other ways for them to do it.
So tell me, why should I have to stop doing what I like so I can buy my potions as another way of not having to farm.

Don't come in here and tell people to prioritize, who are you?

Uhm, as long as there is freedom of speech, I believe I can come in here and say pretty much what I want.

Sure, you're free to do whatever the heck you want to mate, live in vet trials if that's what you want, but no, I don't think you should get more rewards out of that than what you already get. That's a consequence of the choice you make - deal with it.

That's the problem we're discussing here, what we get is being taken away lol.

You obviously know nothing about raiding, yet you're in here talking about raiding and the rewards from it like you know everything about it. It's just ignorant. If you were a raider and had a valid reason as to why we should have BoE gear taken from trials, you'd have some credibility, but it honestly just sounds like you're a player without access to vet raiding groups regularly, so you're in here being salty about it.

I've yet to hear one good reason as to why endgame raiding shouldn't offer any sort of rewards anymore.

Carbonised

Destruent wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Again let me repeat myself, I'm not a bigger fan og BoP than you are, I don't like it either, but don't make trial people appear as beggars who can barely make ends meet, because that's really a l2p issue aka. learn to prioritize.

You can not come in here and tell people what to do, or how to spend their time. I do not tell PvPers to go and do undaunted pledges for their helms, neither does the game force them to anymore, their are other ways for them to do it.
So tell me, why should I have to stop doing what I like so I can buy my potions as another way of not having to farm.

Don't come in here and tell people to prioritize, who are you?

Uhm, as long as there is freedom of speech, I believe I can come in here and say pretty much what I want.

Sure, you're free to do whatever the heck you want to mate, live in vet trials if that's what you want, but no, I don't think you should get more rewards out of that than what you already get. That's a consequence of the choice you make - deal with it.

We don't want to get more, we just don't want to get less than now. Is it that hard to understand?

Nope, I understand you pretty well. And I don't agree with you, and I have made it clear why I don't agree, is that hard to understand?

Also, going back a page or two in this thread, and others have made the exact same arguements like I have so it's not like I'm the only one.

Sure, I get it, you want to do only trials and get rich from that, selling your 500k rings and jewels to fools like me. I disagree with that, that's all. Can we disagree on something without feeling the need to throw a hissyfit about it?

Destruent

Carbonised wrote: »

Sure, I get it, you want to do only trials and get rich from that, selling your 500k rings and jewels to fools like me. I disagree with that, that's all.

We don't want to get rich, we want to be able to pay for potions and gear with the things we soll from trials. Why should we have to farm if we don't enjoy this? Why is it better to force everyone to farm for gold than to give everyone a way to get gold while playing the content they enjoy? It's a game, you should be able to only do what you like...

silvereyes

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Don't really think all PvE loot is BoP.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

All set drops from dungeons and Trials are bind-on-pickup.

I meant PvE in the specific sense of dungeons and trials. And yes, all set drops from dungeons and trials are bind-on-pickup on PTS.

hedna123b14_ESO

Carbonised wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

And who says you have to pop tripots every 45 secs in a trial? It's not a necessity. I've done lots of trials, even some vet trials, and only used cheap trash pots. Sure it would have been more effective to use crafted ones, but it's not a necessity. You have choices. You could cut down on your consumption, or you could spend more time working on your income. I have little respect for someone who spends all their time living in trials and expecting to get all the rewards for doing a minuscle part of the content of the game.

You miss the complete point of what it takes to be a completely effective endgame raider. Trash pots in our raids? No. Not happening. Spell power and weapon power pots are a complete must.

Your respect on a player is based on them wanting to spend time in trials? We're not asking to get "all rewards", we're literally just asking to not get our only source of income taken away from us. They plan to have no BoE for us to sell. How can anyone justify that? We just want a way to make some gold lol. There are plenty of people who play this game just to PvP, or just to do casual dungeons, or to quest, and there are some who play just to endgame raid. We happen to have plenty of people in guild, and not just us, but lots of other guilds, who play to ENDGAME RAID. They don't have the time to go and farm for hours, they log on to raid, and then log out after. How is it fair to say they shouldn't get an income?

No i'm not missing anything, and again, please go easy with the whine here, ok?

Gear is not 'your only source of income', I just stated plain and clear that selling off trial motifs and motif stones is a huge source of income, in Maw as well as now in Crag. You and me both know that Celestial motifs and stones will cost exorbitant amounts of gold for the first month after introduction.

So you have 'no time to farm' but plenty of time to log on and raid raid raid 4 times a week? lol mate, that's a priority. Maybe use 10 % less time on trials and 10 % more time on farming. Again you absolutely disregarded what I wrote about you CHOOSING to spend your time like this. Don't expect to do 2 % of the content in the game and get everything handed to you.

If using pots is a necessity to compete on leaderboards and you have no time to farm, then I'm sorry, but maybe you're just too casual to compete on leaderboards then. I know for sure that tripots and expensive pots aren't a NECESSITY to complete the content, so that's not where the problem lies.

Again let me repeat myself, I'm not a bigger fan og BoP than you are, I don't like it either, but don't make trial people appear as beggars who can barely make ends meet, because that's really a l2p issue aka. learn to prioritize.

So much faulty logic and lack of understanding in your post it baffles me.
1. If you enjoy PvP and devote most of your time to PvP you earn Gold, Items to sell and AP which then can be used to purchase further items to sell. The most pricey items are akaviri motifs, which are still fairly expensive.
2. If you enjoy solo content you have daily quests, and farming. The farming provides you with plenty of items that you can sell and make money off.
3. If you enjoy trials currently you have item rewards which could be sold to make money. The next DLC takes that away. You mentioned Maw Motifs and whiskers? Which server are you on? I've seen the Motifs sell for 10-15k. Also there is no guarantee of getting them. For example, the last 4 clears I got 1 motif.

The issue at hand is that there should be an incentive outside of EPEEN to complete hard content. By taking away BoE items they are effectively saying:" Do it for EPEEN".
You can counter by saying that we earn valuable items for ourselves and that may be true for the first 3 weeks, but after 3 weeks of raiding (raiding 3-4 nights a week like some guilds do) most people will have their gear. I have full infal/VO for all of my alts (I have 8 of them). What is the actual point of me going back into that trial since I have all my gear? What is the incentive? There is none except to EPEEN or to get items to sell. I guarantee that if BoP goes through the frequency of trial running will drop, and from a business perspective doing something that is detrimental to the game and has utterly no benefits makes no sense.

You talk about whining? Last time I checked asking for a proper compensation is not called whining, it's called negotiating. You may be an individual that just accepts things in life as they are given to you, but most of us negotiate favorable terms. In this case the terms we ask for are not only favorable they are fair. How difficult is it to understand that there should be adequate rewards in place for any kind of effort. This is like the basic psychological principle inherent in human nature.

Saying that people are not hard core enough if they don't want to farm trials makes zero sense. Introducing BoP everywhere only makes sense if the game benefits from this in some way. As it stands the top players do not want this, because they can not support themselves financially without it. The non Raiders do not want this because they will lose access to the items that they could buy and benefit from. Literally EVERYONE loses in this scenario.

Things that immidiately negatively impact the game should only happen if there is a long term benefit in place from this action. There is no long term benefit in this particular action, only a means of discouraging trial participation and an increase in disparity between gear composition of competent and incompetent groups.

Silver_Strider

Meh, too much complaining for my tastes.

In truth, potions aren't a necessity for trials if all you care about is loot, which is probably a healthy majority of players. You can clear trials just as well without them. Now, if you're going for LB placing than use pots by all means but know that LB slot is going to come at a hefty bill attached for all those pots.

As for repairs, the amount of gold it takes to repair gear on a good trial run is 10k at best, which is very easy to make that I can't really understand the hate on this. You probably waste much more on vMA runs and you don't make ANY money on doing that but you don't complain on the repair bill on that, so how is this really any different?

You can still make money selling trial motifs so it's not like you don't have some form of income for your hard work. Seems like a lot of petty complaints IMO.