The Removal of Bind on Equip from an Endgame Perspective

silvereyes

potirondb16_ESO wrote: »

It's true that people are arguing because this new update also help a lot of player which now have acces to new interesting set way easier then they had. The fact that we ask reconsideration of the new politics is de facto affecting a huge part of the community.

Oh, I have no problem with a healthy debate, and I doubt Zos does either. I was more referring to the baiting / flaming that went on earlier that got pretty personal and required a forum mod's intervention. Not sure how much a thread with that stigma hanging over it is paid any mind by Zos anymore

Autolycus

silvereyes wrote: »

potirondb16_ESO wrote: »

It's true that people are arguing because this new update also help a lot of player which now have acces to new interesting set way easier then they had. The fact that we ask reconsideration of the new politics is de facto affecting a huge part of the community.

Oh, I have no problem with a healthy debate, and I doubt Zos does either. I was more referring to the baiting / flaming that went on earlier that got pretty personal and required a forum mod's intervention. Not sure how much a thread with that stigma hanging over it is paid any mind by Zos anymore

That's probably true, but no matter how relevant they think it is (or not), it's still extremely disconcerting that a topic such as this, which is clearly hot right now, has been outright ignored by ZOS, outside of their forum mods. Everyone who plays this game paid real money in some form or another, and that qualifies each of us as customers. ZOS has a habit of ignoring their customers, and not just here on the forums.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

What I will enjoy is the logic that soon follows.

Zos: Our internal numbers show that fewer and fewer people are doing trials and vet mode trials. The only logical conclusion we can come to is that they must be way to hard for people, so we are nerfing them all. It might be that we totally removed any incentive to do trials once you have your gear, but we are confident they are just to hard.

Epona222

I do want to add my views to this thread. The thing I find most fun in the game is questing, during the process of which I collect mats like flowers (which is a good example for this particular situation). I occasionally PvP and I occasionally do high end PvE content.

Currently, as things stand on live right now, I do all the activities I like to do, I sell my spare alchemy mats, and I occasionally use the money I earn from that to buy high end gear. This isn't a "trials vs farming" issue, this affects everyone. A healthy game economy is where there is a flow of cash throughout the playerbase; people doing high end content sell the high end gear they get as drops to pay for their consumables. The people who sell those consumables to the people doing trials get cash that they can use to buy gear for PvE or PvP. It works quite well.

Change stuff to BoP and that changes. People who do trials and only trials can no longer financially sustain their potion requirements and leave the game. I can no longer sell my potion mats, or the price slumps. I can no longer afford to buy gear that they used to sell. There's no-one running trials any more, especially runs that involve people without the right gear (that I can no longer afford, or is now BoP), because as well as not being able to afford their own consumables costs, trials people can certainly no longer take a noob on a trial.

This kills the economy, and kills trials.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Question to competitive raiding guilds :

Why don't you recruit farmers ?

Armies don't have only soldiers. They also have cooks, logisticians and administrative staff. They all share the same objective and therefore are fully part of the team and pursue the same goal (whatever the army is fighting for) as everyone else.

Same could apply here. You could recruit players who don't actually comply with the guild's requirements in terms of DPS/skills/whatever, but who are ready to farm and provide pots for the entire team. In exchange, you would carry them in vet trials for achievements. (No shame in that, farming IS hard work).

Only problem I could see here is that I'm not sure vMoL canbe completed with one weaker member. But the three other trials sure can.

Pot problem solved.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Epona222 wrote: »

People who do trials and only trials can no longer financially sustain their potion requirements and leave the game. I can no longer sell my potion mats, or the price slumps.

Not sure about that. End game top raiders are so few. Right behind them, there are thousands of players who run trials for fun and challenge (not loot or profit) and they all use pots. In fact everybody uses pots these days, in trials AND in dungeons, and it's going to be even more with all dungeons being available in a vet version. I don't think this BoP issue will kill the market.

(That being said, I have no firm opinion on the BoP issue, I see pros and cons in both options).

Destruent

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Same could apply here. You could recruit players who don't actually comply with the guild's requirements in terms of DPS/skills/whatever, but who are ready to farm and provide pots for the entire team. In exchange, you would carry them in vet trials for achievements. (No shame in that, farming IS hard work).

I don't want to be the guys who has to farm mats for ~3k potions per raidday. Besides this, i don't think carrying is an option. When should we do this? We probably can't carry more than one every raid, so this will take a lot of time to "pay" all farmers. When are we supposed to make progress?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Destruent wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Same could apply here. You could recruit players who don't actually comply with the guild's requirements in terms of DPS/skills/whatever, but who are ready to farm and provide pots for the entire team. In exchange, you would carry them in vet trials for achievements. (No shame in that, farming IS hard work).

I don't want to be the guys who has to farm mats for ~3k potions per raidday. Besides this, i don't think carrying is an option. When should we do this? We probably can't carry more than one every raid, so this will take a lot of time to "pay" all farmers. When are we supposed to make progress?

Maybe you don't want to be that guy - fine, you don't have to. But if an endgame raiding guild made me such an offer, I would seriously consider being that girl. No need to recruit thousands of farmers, I guess 2 per 12-man team is enough. How often you'd "carry" them would have to be negotiated, but it sure doesn't have to be every week, let alone every time. You'd still have plenty of time and full-power-runs to progress.

I doubt farmers would be interested in being carried often - if they were, they would be raiders and not farmers, and would not need to be carried in the first place. Having the achievements and being able to show the name of a reknown high level guild should be enough of an incentive.

Nifty2g

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Question to competitive raiding guilds :

Why don't you recruit farmers ?

Armies don't have only soldiers. They also have cooks, logisticians and administrative staff. They all share the same objective and therefore are fully part of the team and pursue the same goal (whatever the army is fighting for) as everyone else.

Same could apply here. You could recruit players who don't actually comply with the guild's requirements in terms of DPS/skills/whatever, but who are ready to farm and provide pots for the entire team. In exchange, you would carry them in vet trials for achievements. (No shame in that, farming IS hard work).

Only problem I could see here is that I'm not sure vMoL canbe completed with one weaker member. But the three other trials sure can.

Pot problem solved.

@anitajoneb17_ESO
This is not specifically about the price of potions, I left that in there for a a specific reason. The issue is ZOS are ignoring the costs of running trials. Running content should yield you a way to make profits to keep running the content. That is the issue, it's not about recruiting farmers or anything like that, that's silly. It's simply something being taken out for the raiding community, and nothing being placed there to cover the costs. @ZOS_RichLambert has already let me know that ZOS are not ignoring the costs of trials, I am curious to see what they have in store. I do not want BoE gear to be returned, I like there idea on what they have, but I want a substitute, all of us do.

Destruent

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Same could apply here. You could recruit players who don't actually comply with the guild's requirements in terms of DPS/skills/whatever, but who are ready to farm and provide pots for the entire team. In exchange, you would carry them in vet trials for achievements. (No shame in that, farming IS hard work).

I don't want to be the guys who has to farm mats for ~3k potions per raidday. Besides this, i don't think carrying is an option. When should we do this? We probably can't carry more than one every raid, so this will take a lot of time to "pay" all farmers. When are we supposed to make progress?

Maybe you don't want to be that guy - fine, you don't have to. But if an endgame raiding guild made me such an offer, I would seriously consider being that girl. No need to recruit thousands of farmers, I guess 2 per 12-man team is enough. How often you'd "carry" them would have to be negotiated, but it sure doesn't have to be every week, let alone every time. You'd still have plenty of time and full-power-runs to progress.

I doubt farmers would be interested in being carried often - if they were, they would be raiders and not farmers, and would not need to be carried in the first place. Having the achievements and being able to show the name of a reknown high level guild should be enough of an incentive.

And why would you keep on farming, when you have your achievements? You can get those achievements in maybe 2...3 raiddays, what do you do afterwards? leave the guild? We can't do anything against this...we can't take away your achievements or anything, we only loose time without getting anything in this case.
Note that i don't specifically mean you, so don't take it personally

anitajoneb17_ESO

Destruent wrote: »

And why would you keep on farming, when you have your achievements? You can get those achievements in maybe 2...3 raiddays, what do you do afterwards? leave the guild? We can't do anything against this...we can't take away your achievements or anything, we only loose time without getting anything in this case.
Note that i don't specifically mean you, so don't take it personally

To be "part of the thing" ?
To be a member of a team that achieves great things even if I don't go the "glorious" part of it sure would mean something to me. But I see your point though - many people would probably just get their achievements and run.

Was just a suggestion anyway.

Nifty2g wrote: »

This is not specifically about the price of potions, I left that in there for a a specific reason. The issue is ZOS are ignoring the costs of running trials. Running content should yield you a way to make profits to keep running the content. That is the issue, it's not about recruiting farmers or anything like that, that's silly. It's simply something being taken out for the raiding community, and nothing being placed there to cover the costs. @ZOS_RichLambert has already let me know that ZOS are not ignoring the costs of trials, I am curious to see what they have in store. I do not want BoE gear to be returned, I like there idea on what they have, but I want a substitute, all of us do.

Covering costs is one thing, making profit beyond that is another thing.
What costs are involved with raiding besides potions ? Repair ? That's very low if you master the trial already. How much does repairing cost ? Some 50g/death ? That's insignificant, and you can also use the repair kits that you get for free when doing crafting writs. And I doubt you guys die a lot in a trial you've already beaten several times.
I suspect your argument of "running costs" is hiding your frustration of not being able to make big profits anymore. I can understand that, it's true that something is being taken away from you. But just because you had something doesn't mean you're entitled to have that thing forever. MMOs are a permanently evolving thing. Sorcs used to have a 20s shield, it's gone, Templars used to have an instant heal healing 3 allies, it's gone, etc. Adapt, I guess ?

Nifty2g

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Covering costs is one thing, making profit beyond that is another thing.
What costs are involved with raiding besides potions ? Repair ? That's very low if you master the trial already. How much does repairing cost ? Some 50g/death ? That's insignificant, and you can also use the repair kits that you get for free when doing crafting writs. And I doubt you guys die a lot in a trial you've already beaten several times.
I suspect your argument of "running costs" is hiding your frustration of not being able to make big profits anymore. I can understand that, it's true that something is being taken away from you. But just because you had something doesn't mean you're entitled to have that thing forever. MMOs are a permanently evolving thing. Sorcs used to have a 20s shield, it's gone, Templars used to have an instant heal healing 3 allies, it's gone, etc. Adapt, I guess ?

I am strictly talking about covering costs, BoE gear helped a lot to cover costs while also giving a profit, I can agree it was too much of a profit, personally I barely make a profit at all I do raid leading, there really is not much profits to be had in that most of my loot gets shared to other people, so I really am not talk about my perspectives, you can look in the OP to see my gold and right now I am down to a total of 9k gold.

The cost of running trials is the single most expensive thing in this game, it is the most demanding, and ZOS have already said they are sympathizing with us because it is true, coming in here acting like you are is very ignorant. Running a trial from the end game perspective which means to be competent and running competitively in blatant terms.

Potions, repairs (you dont have to die for gear to break), upgrade mats, gear, soul gems, crafting, theorycrafting,

Outsourcing things like repair kits drop from crafting writs is not solving a problem, because like I said trials should cover the costs of running them, every single patch we are expected to pull money out of thin air and upgrade new gear and farm for new gear, that is fine and all because up until this recent PTS we have had a way to do so, now with the removal of BoE which would be our income source what else do we have to be able to raid?

I am expecting ZOS to increase our end reward significantly to the point where it gives us a way of covering costs but not by making us overly rich.

Here is a news flash, raiding does not make you the richest person in ESO lol

Destruent

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Covering costs is one thing, making profit beyond that is another thing.
What costs are involved with raiding besides potions ? Repair ? That's very low if you master the trial already. How much does repairing cost ? Some 50g/death ? That's insignificant, and you can also use the repair kits that you get for free when doing crafting writs. And I doubt you guys die a lot in a trial you've already beaten several times.
I suspect your argument of "running costs" is hiding your frustration of not being able to make big profits anymore. I can understand that, it's true that something is being taken away from you. But just because you had something doesn't mean you're entitled to have that thing forever. MMOs are a permanently evolving thing. Sorcs used to have a 20s shield, it's gone, Templars used to have an instant heal healing 3 allies, it's gone, etc. Adapt, I guess ?

We are adapting constantly regarding skills, playstyle gear and so on...
And sure...MMOs are changing, but if someone thinks, the changes are bad, he will complain. And that's what this thread is about

Repaircosts are depending on the content we are doing. When doing/trying vMoL/HM it can get really high, dunno what exactly...i usually use repairkits there. Believe me (and the others...) it's not about making profit. We usually make profit in the beginning of a patch bc. everything is new and people pay lots of gold for bad equip with bad traits. But this is only during the first weeky...after this you can maybe cover your costs, after the next patch you won't be able to cover them and you have to use the gold you made in the beginning.
Everyone should be able to pay for potions/repair and whatever is needed by doing the content they like. Somone wants to pvp only? Give them something to sell. Same for raiders, dungeonrunners and so on. They did a good step in this direction in the last patches, but now they just destroy it again

silvereyes

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Sorcs used to have a 20s shield, it's gone, Templars used to have an instant heal healing 3 allies, it's gone, etc. Adapt, I guess ?

This isn't something you can just respec, re-roll, or buy a race change for. It's a fundamental change to the rewards calculus of running high-end PvE content, moving it from the self-sustaining to constantly-gold-starved category.

Can people adapt? Sure, I guess, if they have the time to farm for hours every week. But not everyone will. Participation will plummet for content that already has steep participation requirements.

In short, it will kill off trials for all but the most hard-core raiders.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

People who do trials and only trials can no longer financially sustain their potion requirements and leave the game. I can no longer sell my potion mats, or the price slumps.

Not sure about that. End game top raiders are so few. Right behind them, there are thousands of players who run trials for fun and challenge (not loot or profit) and they all use pots. In fact everybody uses pots these days, in trials AND in dungeons, and it's going to be even more with all dungeons being available in a vet version. I don't think this BoP issue will kill the market.

(That being said, I have no firm opinion on the BoP issue, I see pros and cons in both options).

While this isnt an endgame issue dungeons will see the same problem, since all their drops are BoP as well. For awhile the dungeons will be flooded with people looking for their equipment. But then, they will be mostly quiet. Except for the dailies because there is no point in running them past that once you have what you need.

I guess depending on how rare they make some of the drops in dungeons will decide how long dungeons get to see people running them over and over before it drops off to about what it is now.

anitajoneb17_ESO

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

While this isnt an endgame issue dungeons will see the same problem, since all their drops are BoP as well. For awhile the dungeons will be flooded with people looking for their equipment. But then, they will be mostly quiet.

BoE wouldn't change that. It would even make it worse : people would get their gear quicker via purchasing and wouldn't run the dungeons anymore.
All content is doomed to become "stale" after a while, it would happen quicker with BoE than with BoP. Markets would be flooded and people wouldn't buy beyond their needs anyway.

The only place where BoE would not have such an adverse effect is vet trials, because that content is truly skill-gated.

silvereyes

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

While this isnt an endgame issue dungeons will see the same problem, since all their drops are BoP as well. For awhile the dungeons will be flooded with people looking for their equipment. But then, they will be mostly quiet.

....

The only place where BoE would not have such an adverse effect is vet trials, because that content is truly skill-gated.

There is a separate thread with the suggestion to provide legendary dungeon jewelry drops for a flawless vet hard-mode run of all bosses in the dungeon. I'm curious what people think of that idea. Is that a sufficient skill-gate for legendary jewel drops?

potirondb16_ESO

silvereyes wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

While this isnt an endgame issue dungeons will see the same problem, since all their drops are BoP as well. For awhile the dungeons will be flooded with people looking for their equipment. But then, they will be mostly quiet.

....

The only place where BoE would not have such an adverse effect is vet trials, because that content is truly skill-gated.

There is a separate thread with the suggestion to provide legendary dungeon jewelry drops for a flawless vet hard-mode run of all bosses in the dungeon. I'm curious what people think of that idea. Is that a sufficient skill-gate for legendary jewel drops?

Not sure... gold gear in this game are as satisfactory as they could be, recently upgrading 4 piece of a set to gold to only see minor improvement to my overall stats is kind of underwhelming, even more when we consider how much you have to pay nowaday for those damn temper/resin but if you start hiding some yellow jewellery Inside dungeon you might see a lot of point of view that will diverge.

Pvp player won't want to do pve content in order to gather Bis and won't want to find a good grinding group in order to get them in Gold, High End Pve'rs who are no longer doing dungeon because most of the time they just rush through them as if they were Nothing won't want it either since they are no longer considering those battle worthy and the low-middle end community will be happy but still might ask for more nerfing if they want the SPC gold jewellery or any other set for that matter...

So overall the perspective is good, the idea is noble but I'm scare about the result. The in-game balance is really hard to maintain at the moment because so many advantage are coming from skill and not gear that people have. Giving people acces to gold jewellery Inside dungeon for some set would mean those could overcome any trial set which are way harder to get...

So adding Gold Jewellery Inside dungeon is kind of an issue if trial reward system stay the same... giving a % of chance to get gold gear from trial could be an idea too. Like 10% of the regular Equipment in veteran trial are going to drop in gold...

Moltyr

Do any of these folks at ZOS even run vet trials? Highly doubtful.

Great post though. Sadly, I highly doubt anyone in a position of authority is willing to consider it.

Vet trials are supposed to be the highest tier of content offered (with the best rewards). Even though most of them are extremely easy to complete, the majority of the player base is too stupid to be able to navigate through most Vet Dungeons.

Transairion

Moltyr wrote: »

Do any of these folks at ZOS even run vet trials? Highly doubtful.

Great post though. Sadly, I highly doubt anyone in a position of authority is willing to consider it.

Vet trials are supposed to be the highest tier of content offered (with the best rewards). Even though most of them are extremely easy to complete, the majority of the player base is too stupid to be able to navigate through most Vet Dungeons.

Now you know why most people don't like the "1% best PvE/PvPers" and don't care about their problems in the grand scheme of things. The only groups I've ever seen complete Veteran Trials are guilds, with only MINOR bottom-of-the-barrel PUG members added if they can't field enough players.

Calling them extremely easy just because you have them on farm-mode and are bored to tears just makes you look like an elitist. But go on, we'll be extremely eager to support funding your boring snoozefest Veteran Trials... LOL.

Ashtaris

Moltyr wrote: »

Do any of these folks at ZOS even run vet trials? Highly doubtful.

Great post though. Sadly, I highly doubt anyone in a position of authority is willing to consider it.

Vet trials are supposed to be the highest tier of content offered (with the best rewards). Even though most of them are extremely easy to complete, the majority of the player base is too stupid to be able to navigate through most Vet Dungeons.

Good job. You just destroyed any sympathy I had for end-game trial groups and their issues with BoP.

Autolycus

Nifty2g wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Covering costs is one thing, making profit beyond that is another thing.
What costs are involved with raiding besides potions ? Repair ? That's very low if you master the trial already. How much does repairing cost ? Some 50g/death ? That's insignificant, and you can also use the repair kits that you get for free when doing crafting writs. And I doubt you guys die a lot in a trial you've already beaten several times.
I suspect your argument of "running costs" is hiding your frustration of not being able to make big profits anymore. I can understand that, it's true that something is being taken away from you. But just because you had something doesn't mean you're entitled to have that thing forever. MMOs are a permanently evolving thing. Sorcs used to have a 20s shield, it's gone, Templars used to have an instant heal healing 3 allies, it's gone, etc. Adapt, I guess ?

I am strictly talking about covering costs, BoE gear helped a lot to cover costs while also giving a profit, I can agree it was too much of a profit, personally I barely make a profit at all I do raid leading, there really is not much profits to be had in that most of my loot gets shared to other people, so I really am not talk about my perspectives, you can look in the OP to see my gold and right now I am down to a total of 9k gold.

The cost of running trials is the single most expensive thing in this game, it is the most demanding, and ZOS have already said they are sympathizing with us because it is true, coming in here acting like you are is very ignorant. Running a trial from the end game perspective which means to be competent and running competitively in blatant terms.

Potions, repairs (you dont have to die for gear to break), upgrade mats, gear, soul gems, crafting, theorycrafting,

Outsourcing things like repair kits drop from crafting writs is not solving a problem, because like I said trials should cover the costs of running them, every single patch we are expected to pull money out of thin air and upgrade new gear and farm for new gear, that is fine and all because up until this recent PTS we have had a way to do so, now with the removal of BoE which would be our income source what else do we have to be able to raid?

I am expecting ZOS to increase our end reward significantly to the point where it gives us a way of covering costs but not by making us overly rich.

Here is a news flash, raiding does not make you the richest person in ESO lol

I agree wholeheartedly, as someone who also spends upwards of 90-95% of play time directly on my members, and not just those that run the more competitive events. I have an obligation to run my members through dungeons and pvp too. I'm certain that our guild cultures are different, so the way we spend our time will vary. But, from the perspective of someone who already has next to no time for personal endeavors (like playing the guild storylines that come with each update, DB and TG for example), finding time to farm is simply a luxury I don't have without my members suffering for it too (b/c that means less running and helping from me). It's simply not an approach I condone when it comes to leading a guild, or groups in general for that matter. I don't play this game solely for trials; I play for my people.

As such, certainly even those of you who disagree with my opinions on this subject can understand that almost every BoE drop I get goes to one of my raiders. Only once in maybe 10-15 runs of a normal trial do I get something worth selling, and there's no guarantee it'll even cover the costs of our vet runs. Completing a vet hardmode can be lucrative by way of a gold BoE drop, but even then, as Nifty suggested, it only just covers the cost of doing those runs. If I clear a vet SO HM tonight and get a gold DKS or Viper jewelry, assuming I sell it, I've covered the cost of potions for 1-2 vMOL runs. Running trials is not nearly as lucrative as most seem to think.

And I don't know about every other endgame raider out there, but even the stuff we've done 300+ times (yes, that's realistic for us, except for vMoL at this point) we still die a lot. We either lose our focus and begin to slack off and have fun, which results in people not paying attention and dying, or we're actually dying to mechanics. So yeah, veteran trials, especially hardmodes, result in a lot of deaths, even for experienced players, and can rack up a fairly high repair bill. This alone is not what justifies an income source for trials... it's this in combination with other factors, predominantly potions.

As someone who participates in as much pvp as I can (keeping in mind that this is still with the guild, I rarely go pvp by myself anymore due to lack of time), I see far more lucrative opportunities in pvp than I have seen in any pve content since vDSA was first introduced to the live server. Last night I managed to sneak in about an hour of IC pvp with 4 of my guildies, and we did well enough so as to steal about 8k TV from random players and groups in IC. I can turn 5k TV into 20k gold almost instantly. An hour in a veteran trial can cost me about that much. Not necessarily the content leading up to the final bosses; most of this we get through fairly smoothly (but not completely free of deaths, and using potions the whole time ofc), but accounting for time spent on HM bosses too. Some food for thought, at least.

GreatWhite000

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Question to competitive raiding guilds :

Why don't you recruit farmers ?

Because that would take an insane amount of micro-managing when we could instead just sell our trial loot for potions instead. And even if this was done, both parties would still be broke because there's absolutely NO money to be made with the new system.

anitajoneb17_ESO

GreatWhite000 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Question to competitive raiding guilds :

Why don't you recruit farmers ?

Because that would take an insane amount of micro-managing when we could instead just sell our trial loot for potions instead. And even if this was done, both parties would still be broke because there's absolutely NO money to be made with the new system.

... which brings us back to the question : is it about covering costs, or is it about making gold beyond that ?

Lava_Croft

I just wish ZOS would stop treating their customer base as if they have the same cognitive problems that for example Wrobel has.

Let us play the content we want, let us trade the items we want. Please.

Flak

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

GreatWhite000 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Question to competitive raiding guilds :

Why don't you recruit farmers ?

Because that would take an insane amount of micro-managing when we could instead just sell our trial loot for potions instead. And even if this was done, both parties would still be broke because there's absolutely NO money to be made with the new system.

... which brings us back to the question : is it about covering costs, or is it about making gold beyond that ?

Well, I don't really care about making more gold, I'm fine if it covers my expenses.
But on the other hand: Why would it be such a bad thing to make money with trials?
It's the hardest content, it takes alot of organisation from raidleaders and a group that synergizes well.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Flak wrote: »

But on the other hand: Why would it be such a bad thing to make money with trials?

Nothing. It's just that I was suggesting hiring crafters/farmers into the guild/team somehow to provide potions in exchange for whatever. That would be a workaround for covering costs, but not for making extra gold. (Suggestion doesn't seem very popular so it doesn't really matter).

But I don't think ZOS minds us making money with trials (or with anything for that matter). I think ZOS thinks in maximizing "hours played" and obviously they think BoP is one tool to achieve this (top raiding guilds would run less but many more guilds would run...). I also think they're trying to protect/promote build diversity : if vicious ophidian and infaillible aether are BoE, everybody will run vicious ophidian and infaillible aether within a month. Everybody. (Just like every healer was wearing healer's set and every tank was wearing footman back in the days when it dropped BoE in VDSA).

Medieval_Miss81

It's not only about the elite guilds that may have vet trials on farm. This also affects the guilds who are working to complete this content.

For example, my guild is a social guild that is also trying to push content. We have several people who could and do also run with the elite guilds, but enjoy trying to help the rest of our members achieve this content. So far, we have completed Vet Sanctum, but not any of the other vet trials.

This push to get our members to be able to conquer this content is also very expensive. We don't even get the 10K gold from completing the hard mode once a week. If there is no gear that can be sold from these trials, the ability to continue to run them and help our non-elite members to learn this content and eventually complete it will disappear.

I like the suggestions that @Nifty2g has, but please remember those of us who don't yet have the ability to get these end financial rewards. I hope ZOS doesn't want to discourage guilds who are not elite trials guilds from working to complete this content either.

We don't expect or want it to be easy, but we would like to have some incentive to continue pouring gold into our efforts. If there is no incentive other than the end financial award and the achievement, the guild members who can run with elite guilds will simply leave to do that instead of sticking it out to help those non-elites.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Medieval_Miss81 wrote: »

We don't expect or want it to be easy, but we would like to have some incentive to continue pouring gold into our efforts. If there is no incentive other than the end financial award and the achievement, the guild members who can run with elite guilds will simply leave to do that instead of sticking it out to help those non-elites.

Not sure I understand. The issue here is potions. If your good members are here to help, they don't have to run min/maxed and don't need to run on expensive pots...

Nifty2g

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Medieval_Miss81 wrote: »

We don't expect or want it to be easy, but we would like to have some incentive to continue pouring gold into our efforts. If there is no incentive other than the end financial award and the achievement, the guild members who can run with elite guilds will simply leave to do that instead of sticking it out to help those non-elites.

Not sure I understand. The issue here is potions. If your good members are here to help, they don't have to run min/maxed and don't need to run on expensive pots...

Do you just skip what I am posting? The issue isn't potions the issue is there is nothing to cover the costs, the costs is a broad term stop associating it with potions, I used that as an example, you are just extending the argument to be more beneficial to act against raiders for some odd reason, fair enough I guess, but like I said I've already been told ZOS are looking into this issue and will adjust certain things