The problem is not balanced the problem is perspective people want to have a mage with 45K magic 18K help with next to no physical resistance and want to say that then you die fast without a shield. Magic is very good at sustain and at magic penetration.
Stamina is great at burst and when you use those to correctly you have an amazing time when you trying to match the other side you lose more often than not.

5 heavy with Major Resolve puts you at around 25k physical resistance.
Major Fracture subtracts 5280.
A sharpened weapon adds 5160 penetration.
A Maul ignores 20% or your resistance.


((25000-5280)*0.8-5160)/50000 ~= 21% mitigation.
Let's say you also have 18% mitigation from Hardy.

A decent Surprise Attack tooltip is:
8989*1.25(Mighty) = 11236

11236*0.82(Hardy) = 9213
9213*0.79(Resistance) = 7278
7278*0.5(Battle Spirit) = 3639

If you have 25k health you will be dead in less than 6 seconds after ~6 Surprise Attack/Light Attack weaves, but lets be real, you wouldn't let that happen.

What happens is this:

Bow Heavy > Poison Inject > Ambush > Incap Strike > Maul Light > Surprise Attack > Maul Light > Executioner

All of this happens in ~5 seconds.

The bow heavy and the poison inject are animation canceled from stealth and happen on second 1.
The Ambush happens on second 2 and Empowers the following Incap Strike.
The Incap Strike happens on second 3, knocks you down and applies Major Defile, reducing your healing by 30%.
The Maul Light and Surprise Attack happen on second 4, applying Major Fracture, reducing your armor.
The Maul Light and Executioner happen on second 5, killing you.

You don't even realize you're being attacked until you are breaking free from the Incap Strike, so what appears to be second 1 for you is actually the beginning of second 4 for the GankBlade. He's already balls deep.

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

He forgot to highlight how the Lich Crystals take 3 seconds to blow up for less damage than Velidreth! XD
Also Blood Spawn has stamina recovery WTB magicka recovery Undaunted.

Except that in PvE Nerien'eth = more DPS than Velidreth, because the crystal procs don't have a cooldown.

3 second cooldown when it procs, you can't have multiple crystals up at the same time..

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Here where it's not nearly as bad as you claim yes we can all point to extremely cherry picked cases to make any points we want but let's look at the facts.

Armor: Light armor has to take more damage then medium armor it would be silly that with less armor you have the same protection. Not an even match but that's how armor works.

Armor Passive: Both are evenly matched yes stamina gets a raw damage buff but spell pen makes up that difference. Now medium armor has more passives on the surface and out of context that looks unfair but stamina is used for attacks and heals just like magic, BUT it's also used to run, roll and block. Blocking which stops your next recovery tick and resets not where you left off but from zero. For that 3-4 seconds of no recovery for a half second block.
If a Mage in stealth walk or ran into a fight they would have used 0% of what they need to fight a stamina build has to wait to recovery stamina before joining the fight or start the fight at 50% stamina.

Heals: Magic far out heals stamina without a doubt in terms of raw healing Vigor is great. But it's close ranged and you need to PvP to get it. Every single class has magic based heals. Stamina has to nearly max two handed or PvP for an on demand heal. Regeneration has 28 meter range 36 in PvP and with it's duration and having more ticks with crit it heals more players for more health over a longer range.
Advantage magic.

Damage: For the simple fact that most magic builds do little if anything to boost physical resistance despite it being so ever present it feels like stamina hits harder but the fact is if you actually use your destro staff and stack that spell pen you do great damage. All my mages have physical resistance somewhere it's dumb not to it. Stamina should stack damage magic should stack spell pen it's not hard.
Stamina lives and kills on burst while magic has more of a long term sustain set up going.
Even match when you know what you're doing and stop trying to get a taste of citrus from an apple

Defense: Much like damage stamina is still burst while magic is sustain even on defense. Stamina defenses guard against damage right then and there and do nothing immediately after. You can block or roll but that only help stop the damage flying in now not a after. Magic defense is easy just shield up. Even with the nerf to shield to 6 seconds it's still better that what stamina can do. Blocking stops your recovery of stamina meaning it's holding back your attacks and heals. Rolling get more and more expensive as you go. Shields cost the same every time, removes 100% of crit (don't say but, but they take unmitigated damage my 6k Poison Injection tick drops to 700 a tick on a shield that's not a small difference.

Now grants you have more then base health and have physical resistance you will be fine without your shields and very safe with them. For the high cost of stamina defense and the static cost and clear benefits of magic shield magic takes this one.

Weapons: Now this one will be a pain cause 80% of you will not accept the truth here. Stamina DPS has only two weapons, just like magic and tanking.
Restoration and Destruction Staves are for magic, Dual Wield and Bow is stamina and Twohanded and One Hand and Shield are for tanks/health builds.

Like at the effects in Twohanded and One Hand and Shield both get better not with stamina but with Health and in 1.5 Rally don't boost all weapon damage just Twohanded, Wrecking Blow was a joke cause you could bash to stop it. It's damage is so far beyond other powers why?? Cause it was made for builds with low damage that's why it's strong and has a knock back. It just happens to get better for stamina DPS then tanks.

When you get pass fire's DK synergy and Lightning's Sorcerer synergy you Ice staff is the most powerful one limitless snares and roots at range nonetheless it pretty OP. My frost Mage locks you down with Frost reach the reflect your range back and I can just root you over and over and over.

Healing Staff besides with small minded players say is very powerful the passives are great yes you need to be on the bar to use them but that makes sense. You can keep your normal class damage and add Quick Siphon morph no one uses in the restoration skill line and all your attacks turn into Templar's Jabs it's very OP when used with Jabs itself.

Bow sucks it's a Gank or Support weapon it's lacks the power to be used to kill from start to finish unless your target in new. Dual Wield is very well rounded.

Twohanded and One hand and Shield both work as they are meant to when not on a block casting Mage or stamina DPS they are very balanced.

Armor Passive: Light armor has just about 2k more spell resistance than medium and half as much armor as medium (and medium doesn't have an increased armor or spell resistance passive). Hardly a trade off because light armor is stuck with a useless passive (especially in PvP you can a sharpened weapon and 5 light for 100% penetration).
Stamina wins.

Healing: When you are forced to slot a resto staff because you aren't a templar. Sure there is 1 class (Magicka Templar) that has the best healing in game, but stamina builds can already heal through vet content - and Stam Templars have access to Major Mending for stronger Vigor heals. By the way, Vigor only takes 5 hour or less to unlock. Maxing 2h is easy especially since a stamina build will use one regardless. Dragon Blood is a sh*t heal in PvP - garbage.
Magicka Templar > Vigor. That's it.

Damage: For the simple fact every stamina build is pulling 10-20k more DPS than Magicka. Destro staff provides 10% spell penetration ONLY FOR DESTRUCTION STAFF SKILLS. Whereas maces provide a flat 20% armor penetration on all attacks. - Not to mention Major Fracture is much more widely available to apply - comes with damage dealing skills.
Stamina wins


Defense: I don't see any defensive passives for light armor besides the fully penetrated, near useless Spell Resistance. Dodge roll and sprint are reduced cost for medium armor builds and all share the same pool, not to mention how much easier it is to have high stam regen vs. high magicka recovery. Blocking as a medium armor build will likely only be used to block a meteor in PvP or a clutch lucky Dawnbreaker.
Stamina wins

Weapons: Streak costs more and more per use and Sorcerers (the legitimateagicka absorption class) were hit with the shield duration. The shielding you pointed out only really works for Sorcerers because they have the strongest shield in game, the only way for other magicka builds to utilize this is by having execute percentage health paired with hardened ward - which is easy to destroy with the 50% shield debuff not to mention those classes are forced to place champion points into shield absorption whereas Stamina can place 120 points into a tree and get Unchained. Dodge rolling is avoiding all damage - besides AoEs which Magickas best AoE was nerfed (Prox) and Channeled Abilities (Radiant Destruction is almost exclusive) - and having a effortless, given amount of high stamina recovery, players are still able to dodge roll near endlessly whereas Magicka is forced to balance magicka recovery and max magicka especially with the removal of vet ranks increasing all costs for magicka builds dramatically.
Let's also point out that Bow, 2h, dual wield get 20% cost reduction - Main DPS abilities - along with Medium Armor passive reductions not to memtion they already are low costing skills and scale much, much better. Let's compare that to how Magicka's main DPS skills come from their class skills which usually only get reduced by Light Armor passives.
Stamina wins by far - look at Damage too.

What two weapons does tanking have? Magicka DPS won't use a resto staff unless they're (forced) to in PvP. Stamina has 2h, Bow, and Dual Wield all viable in PvE - mainly dual wield and bow. In PvP, Stamina builds have access to S&B as well with good damage. Magicka is able to run S&B and Dual Wield but cannot utilize Light Attacks, Heavy Attacks, or their abilities because of lack of resources to be able to stack weapon damage or stamina as high as Stamina builds resulting a DPS decrease.

2H gets suberbly better with max stamina and weapon damage - it increases the healing with momentum and 20% weapon damage increase adds to their 12% weapon damage passive.
Sabre Ali was an amazing wrecking blow player in 1.5.
You mention 2h is only viable for Stamina DPS tanks? Why does just about every stam build run 2h/bow? FENGRUSH uses Dizzying Swing so he's a stamina tank? Tanks were designed to be in heavy armor and that is about it - every weapon skill was designed as filler moves to fulfill the play as you want slogan.

DK synergizes fire destro in PvE sure, but now they work better spamming heavy attacks with a lightning staff. This is much more synergy than Sorcerers using lightning attacks in PvP. Fire Heavy weaves work well in PvP woth all classes but magicka DK.
You mention an ice staff granting endless snares? A stamina build can do that more effectively and deal more damage - any gap closer adds a snare (used to be a root).

Healing staff is only used in PvP for the magicka regen heavy attacks (a slow channel) and Hardened Ward. You sure do have to lose a weapon slot whereas Vigor heals faster, more reliable than a healing shield that can be broken, and it doesn't require the player to have any certain weapon to use.

Poison Injection is one of the strongest DoTs in game due to it passively executing while you deal damage on your main bar. Some players use it as a support bar, sure, but the Major Expedition dodge roll paired along with medium armor synergizes well.

2H still works suberbly well on players blocking attacks. Notice how Uppercut is no longer interruptable? The damage that skill does is still strong. S&B stamina builds have another weavable skill - Bashing. LA -> Ransack -> Bash is 5-7k (in PvP) worth of damage easy.

All in all Stamina has better scaling CP choices, CP passives, better weapon design, better armor passives, better Stamina Races vs Magicka Races, and better overall dps (by 10-20k in PvE and PvP). Also Dawmbreaker of Smiting is a physical Damage ability instant, no telegraph, easy to weave, instant CC and much longer CC duration than Meteor, costs less and the DoT is applied to the person rather than sticking to the floor.
Dawnbreaker of Smiting has Mighty and Thaumaturge in the same CP tree and they both scale its initial and DoT damage so there's that too. - 120 Points in the ritual = more Ult gen! Where is the magicka equivalent in the Mage tree?!

Xeven wrote: »

you forgot to mark addinational 10000:D

jaye63 wrote: »

Question #1- Has there EVER been a balanced MMO?
Question #2- Have the game developers of any MMO made any balance changes that didnt upset half of the players?
Question #3- Since the answer to #1 and #2 are no, why do you continue to discuss it?
Question #4- The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Do you really expect a different result?



So this entire thread says to the devs and the rest of us... Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It get's everyone nowhere and is like the main topics of every election. They are hot button issues that never get resolved but trotted out to make people feel better about a complaint that can never be resolved.

Not sure what you're getting at, in fact your entire post is mostly a strawman. There has never been a perfectly balanced MMO, no. There HAVE been well balanced MMOs and there have been MMOs much better balanced than ESO.

Some of us run stamina and magic builds. We can see the difference.

It is really F'ed up for sure. By GOD don't let those shields last longer than 6 seconds for those MAG builds !!!!

@Wrobel wtf man.

cjthibs wrote: »

Get rid of animation cancelling, bring back soft caps.

Keep animation canceling, but bring back soft caps.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Anyone whom feels that the sets are even close to comparable to each other are just being stubborn.

This has been brought up MANY times before.

Remember my posts about only 2 magicka dps moves?
Remember my fire fight with Fengrush about STAM NO MATTER THE CLASS has a huge imbalance in moves and sets?

REMEMBER my posts about pigeonholed magicka builds?

Pepperidge Farms remembers...

I dont even remember fighting about this.

This is a completely valid topic put in a forum smeared with pretty brutal anecdotal bias from xeven. Ultimately, it wont get anything done. Fill in your complaints below I guess.

Ohh and I run Crusher enchants so that's another -5120k off both resistances so that 20k off your resistance.

/yawn