A Conversation with ZOS on Balance

Mojmir

I'm still waiting for ZOS side of this conversation. Lmao

Dracane

E-Zekiel wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Yeah, nevermind that 30k DOT. You're absolutely right!


._.

A 30k dot that requires your target to stand still, for 11 seconds.
Compared to a 10k dot that is safe and doesn't require your target to stand still And dawnbreaker costs half that.

So in the time where you use 1 meteor, you can have 2 dawnbreaker.
Not saying that Dawnbreaker needs nerfs. Just saying that Stamina is super imbalanced

Thelon

Mojmir wrote: »

I'm still waiting for ZOS side of this conversation

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Here where it's not nearly as bad as you claim yes we can all point to extremely cherry picked cases to make any points we want but let's look at the facts.

Armor: Light armor has to take more damage then medium armor it would be silly that with less armor you have the same protection. Not an even match but that's how armor works.

Armor Passive: Both are evenly matched yes stamina gets a raw damage buff but spell pen makes up that difference. Now medium armor has more passives on the surface and out of context that looks unfair but stamina is used for attacks and heals just like magic, BUT it's also used to run, roll and block. Blocking which stops your next recovery tick and resets not where you left off but from zero. For that 3-4 seconds of no recovery for a half second block.
If a Mage in stealth walk or ran into a fight they would have used 0% of what they need to fight a stamina build has to wait to recovery stamina before joining the fight or start the fight at 50% stamina.

Heals: Magic far out heals stamina without a doubt in terms of raw healing Vigor is great. But it's close ranged and you need to PvP to get it. Every single class has magic based heals. Stamina has to nearly max two handed or PvP for an on demand heal. Regeneration has 28 meter range 36 in PvP and with it's duration and having more ticks with crit it heals more players for more health over a longer range.
Advantage magic.

Damage: For the simple fact that most magic builds do little if anything to boost physical resistance despite it being so ever present it feels like stamina hits harder but the fact is if you actually use your destro staff and stack that spell pen you do great damage. All my mages have physical resistance somewhere it's dumb not to it. Stamina should stack damage magic should stack spell pen it's not hard.
Stamina lives and kills on burst while magic has more of a long term sustain set up going.
Even match when you know what you're doing and stop trying to get a taste of citrus from an apple

Defense: Much like damage stamina is still burst while magic is sustain even on defense. Stamina defenses guard against damage right then and there and do nothing immediately after. You can block or roll but that only help stop the damage flying in now not a after. Magic defense is easy just shield up. Even with the nerf to shield to 6 seconds it's still better that what stamina can do. Blocking stops your recovery of stamina meaning it's holding back your attacks and heals. Rolling get more and more expensive as you go. Shields cost the same every time, removes 100% of crit (don't say but, but they take unmitigated damage my 6k Poison Injection tick drops to 700 a tick on a shield that's not a small difference.

Now grants you have more then base health and have physical resistance you will be fine without your shields and very safe with them. For the high cost of stamina defense and the static cost and clear benefits of magic shield magic takes this one.

Weapons: Now this one will be a pain cause 80% of you will not accept the truth here. Stamina DPS has only two weapons, just like magic and tanking.
Restoration and Destruction Staves are for magic, Dual Wield and Bow is stamina and Twohanded and One Hand and Shield are for tanks/health builds.

Like at the effects in Twohanded and One Hand and Shield both get better not with stamina but with Health and in 1.5 Rally don't boost all weapon damage just Twohanded, Wrecking Blow was a joke cause you could bash to stop it. It's damage is so far beyond other powers why?? Cause it was made for builds with low damage that's why it's strong and has a knock back. It just happens to get better for stamina DPS then tanks.

When you get pass fire's DK synergy and Lightning's Sorcerer synergy you Ice staff is the most powerful one limitless snares and roots at range nonetheless it pretty OP. My frost Mage locks you down with Frost reach the reflect your range back and I can just root you over and over and over.

Healing Staff besides with small minded players say is very powerful the passives are great yes you need to be on the bar to use them but that makes sense. You can keep your normal class damage and add Quick Siphon morph no one uses in the restoration skill line and all your attacks turn into Templar's Jabs it's very OP when used with Jabs itself.

Bow sucks it's a Gank or Support weapon it's lacks the power to be used to kill from start to finish unless your target in new. Dual Wield is very well rounded.

Twohanded and One hand and Shield both work as they are meant to when not on a block casting Mage or stamina DPS they are very balanced.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

The problem is not balanced the problem is perspective people want to have a mage with 45K magic 18K help with next to no physical resistance and want to say that then you die fast without a shield. Magic is very good at sustain and at magic penetration.
Stamina is great at burst and when you use those to correctly you have an amazing time when you trying to match the other side you lose more often than not.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Your comparison are idiotic at best.

Craftable set vs end game set only a few will achieve. Common. They also serve different purposes. Seducers is a healing set, not a dps set. I will agree vicious serpent does A LOT, as it should for what it takes to get it.

I'll take meteor over dbos any day as magicka. Circular aoe vs cone. Better dot and a snare.

Forgetting the best part of mutagen, the burst heal that needs no magicka out attention, in 2 seconds you can do more healing immediately with it then vigor can. It is much cheaper. And does more healing to your teammates than vigor.

Wow is a different game.

Passives, OK there is one.

I'm glad you don't balance. I have no issues with any of my magicka characters.

you cant compare a dot that sticks(dawnbreaker) to a ground dot any good player can leave in one second; meteor. being 100% cheaper is def not balanced for what they do.

LOL are you for real. learn math, vigor gives more heal than mutegen 20% clutch EVERY 2 SECONDS regardless of health in that posted tooltip, its just a dodge roll away ( not to mention you can get vigor a few k higher, making it heal for way more than the mutegen burst every two seconds)

Thelon

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

The problem is not balance the problem is perspective

Sharee

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

The problem is not balanced the problem is perspective people want to have a mage with 45K magic 18K help with next to no physical resistance and want to say that then you die fast without a shield.

How about a heavy armor s/s DK with 30K physical resistance still dying fast despite holding block and spamming dragon blood?

Fear -> instant 7500 incap strike+3500 SA+ 2000 LA, followed by ~3000 poison injection ticks, ~2000 heavy weapon bleed ticks, 1000+ rearming trap DOT...

Still a perspective problem?

Thelon

@Sharee
Fear has been the bane of perma-block builds since launch. Seems like good counter-play rather than a balance issue, though incap strike is crazy atm

Sharee

Thelon wrote: »

@Sharee
Fear has been the bane of perma-block builds since launch. Seems like good counter-play rather than a balance issue, though incap strike is crazy atm

Its not a bane of permablock, its a bane of everything. And my mDK is far from permablocking. I can block for about 10 seconds before i'm forced to drop it.

Anyway, the issue isn't fear, the issue is a character with very nearly maxed out physical resistance getting shredded in seconds by physical attacks, unless he blocks. Block should be a tool to be used selectively, when the situation calls for it - like blocking an incoming meteor - but with the current stamina balance the "situation calls for it" is basically all the time while a stam build focuses on you (and especially nightblades). Drop the block for a split second and you're dead, heavy armor or not. That's just wrong.

Xeven

5 heavy with Major Resolve puts you at around 25k physical resistance.
Major Fracture subtracts 5280.
A sharpened weapon adds 5160 penetration.
A Maul ignores 20% or your resistance.


((25000-5280)*0.8-5160)/50000 ~= 21% mitigation.
Let's say you also have 18% mitigation from Hardy.

A decent Surprise Attack tooltip is:
8989*1.25(Mighty) = 11236

11236*0.82(Hardy) = 9213
9213*0.79(Resistance) = 7278
7278*0.5(Battle Spirit) = 3639

If you have 25k health you will be dead in less than 6 seconds after ~6 Surprise Attack/Light Attack weaves, but lets be real, you wouldn't let that happen.

What happens is this:

Bow Heavy > Poison Inject > Ambush > Incap Strike > Maul Light > Surprise Attack > Maul Light > Executioner

All of this happens in ~5 seconds.

The bow heavy and the poison inject are animation canceled from stealth and happen on second 1.
The Ambush happens on second 2 and Empowers the following Incap Strike.
The Incap Strike happens on second 3, knocks you down and applies Major Defile, reducing your healing by 30%.
The Maul Light and Surprise Attack happen on second 4, applying Major Fracture, reducing your armor.
The Maul Light and Executioner happen on second 5, killing you.

You don't even realize you're being attacked until you are breaking free from the Incap Strike, so what appears to be second 1 for you is actually the beginning of second 4 for the GankBlade. He's already balls deep.

SanTii.92

Joy_Division wrote: »

LOL at the people trying to argue mutagen is just as good or better than vigor. Especially those so desperate to save the stam meta that they actually used "it's easiest to unlock" as a justification. What a joke.

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Hymzir wrote: »

The original mechanics of the game were based on the idea that everyone would use magicka based class skills and supplement it with few weapon based stamina skills.

I said this way back in the day when it was kinda clear how the game had been build and got shot down a LOT by people who just simply wanted to keep playing Skyrim totally ignoring this was its own game in its own right.

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

You unlocked Regeneration after using a resto staff for 20 seconds.

Unless you are a really good player, you unlock Vigor after doing PVP for 10 hours.

You also forgot to draw a box around the Mutagen effect. "If you or your allies are low on health, the heal over time is consumed to heal immediately and remove harmful effect". Which is an instant 5k heal.

You can unlock Vigor by walking around empty keeps repairing walls and gates.

I agree, but it still makes more than a minute to unlock. It requires 90k AP if I remember correctly, which is about 1800 wall repairs. Which comes out to 165k gold.

Full repairing an upgraded keep will net you about 20k AP and take 15-20 mins.

To unlock regeneration, you put on a resto staff and turn in one quest, or kill a few monsters and you unlock it.

Are we seriously talking about this? Who gives a ***? Id grind for days just to have access to anything even remotely close to what stamina has.

Magicka builds have both shields and multiple heals available. Breath of Life/Honor the Dead are far better than Vigor.

My templars BOL heals more than double what my stamblade's vigor heals. And it does it instantly not over 5 seconds. So please don't tell me magicka builds don't have any good heals.

Hooray for your FOTM templar. Now go roll a DK and watch how your "burst" heal is less than a vigor tick.

What has to do vigor with mutagen in the first place? I agree the gap exisets, not as terrible as some try to represent, but sorry, the comparison is just stupid. Like most on this thread.

Carbonised

[/quote]What has to do vigor with mutagen in the first place? I agree the gap exisets, not as terrible as some try to represent, but sorry, the comparison is just stupid.

[/quote]

Sharee wrote: »

Thelon wrote: »

@Sharee
Fear has been the bane of perma-block builds since launch. Seems like good counter-play rather than a balance issue, though incap strike is crazy atm

Its not a bane of permablock, its a bane of everything. And my mDK is far from permablocking. I can block for about 10 seconds before i'm forced to drop it.

Anyway, the issue isn't fear, the issue is a character with very nearly maxed out physical resistance getting shredded in seconds by physical attacks, unless he blocks. Block should be a tool to be used selectively, when the situation calls for it - like blocking an incoming meteor - but with the current stamina balance the "situation calls for it" is basically all the time while a stam build focuses on you (and especially nightblades). Drop the block for a split second and you're dead, heavy armor or not. That's just wrong.

Word on this.

And that's a MagDK in heavy armor speced for resistance, try going into Cyrodiil as a Magknight in light armor, well let me tell you it's a f*cking joke. "Well magicka has Vicious Death" you say, hah, what is that going to help when you fall over dead whenever a stamina build just farts in your general direction. Light armor is just an accident waiting to happen. Unlike Shuffle, the light amor 'shield' is a 6 sec disaster that will mitigate like 0.5 secs of stamina burst damage. I have resto on my back bar, and even spamming illustrious healing & rapid regen I can't even heal 1/10th of the incoming damage of a stam build. Resto staff is a big fat f*cking joke, the only thing resto staff is good for is healing you from that 10 % cliffdive you had in between fights.

And don't even get me started on the destro staff. I used Inferno before, and let me tell you it sucked. Just compare every single damn skill in the damn skill line to bow and 2hander, oh wait, someone already did that for us in this thread. Now Inferno staff is out of the question now due to all the FOTM immortal stamknights spamming wings due to their neverending magicka return from Bloodspawn and Tava. So Lightning staff then. You know, even in Elegant set buffing my heavy attacks for +50% via Molten you still cannot even put a dent in a stam build. They just laugh at you while mitigating 90 % of the damage, Vigoring the last 10 % and slice you up with their bow and 2hander in 5 seconds.

And for gods sake could we end the discussion about meteor already, it's a huge sucker of an ult in PvP (and really in PvE too), CC is mitigated by blocking, DoT is mitigated by, hey, commong friggin sense, and the whole ult is mitigated by screaming "HERE I COME" 3 seconds before it actually hits. Anyone dying to a meteor in PvP is a n00b. As a light armor spell damage spec'ed MagDK with respectable PvE damage I have time and again seen my f*cking 200 ulti wasted on a stam build and not even taking 7 % off their health, that's how useless and wasted meteor is for you.

Unless you have actually used a magDK in Cyrodiil you're automatically disclassified to participate in this thread, cause frankly you don't know sh*t about what you're talking about.

Xeven

Refer to the following video and watch the scrolling combat text on the right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4PAe_NKGks

1.5-3.2k Vigor tics.
1.5-2k Rally tics.
400-700 Extended Ritual tics.
300 Critical Leech tics.
1-5k Repentence tics.

This is a typical Stamplar. Stamsorc is similar except they get 1.5-2k Surge tics just from Hurricane. Regardless of class, Stamina specs are mitigateing 4-5k DPS from the Vigor/Rally combo alone.

When you combine this with high burst, 20-25k spell resists, dodge roll, shuffle, and elemental defender, no magicka class can touch them because A] we can't out DPS their combined mitigation, and B] we lack the high burst combinations that they possess.

Magicka needs a buff across the board to compete with this meta.

Samuel_Bantien

IzakiBrotheSs wrote: »

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

He forgot to highlight how the Lich Crystals take 3 seconds to blow up for less damage than Velidreth! XD
Also Blood Spawn has stamina recovery WTB magicka recovery Undaunted.

Except that in PvE Nerien'eth = more DPS than Velidreth, because the crystal procs don't have a cooldown.

3 second cooldown when it procs, you can't have multiple crystals up at the same time..

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Here where it's not nearly as bad as you claim yes we can all point to extremely cherry picked cases to make any points we want but let's look at the facts.

Armor: Light armor has to take more damage then medium armor it would be silly that with less armor you have the same protection. Not an even match but that's how armor works.

Armor Passive: Both are evenly matched yes stamina gets a raw damage buff but spell pen makes up that difference. Now medium armor has more passives on the surface and out of context that looks unfair but stamina is used for attacks and heals just like magic, BUT it's also used to run, roll and block. Blocking which stops your next recovery tick and resets not where you left off but from zero. For that 3-4 seconds of no recovery for a half second block.
If a Mage in stealth walk or ran into a fight they would have used 0% of what they need to fight a stamina build has to wait to recovery stamina before joining the fight or start the fight at 50% stamina.

Heals: Magic far out heals stamina without a doubt in terms of raw healing Vigor is great. But it's close ranged and you need to PvP to get it. Every single class has magic based heals. Stamina has to nearly max two handed or PvP for an on demand heal. Regeneration has 28 meter range 36 in PvP and with it's duration and having more ticks with crit it heals more players for more health over a longer range.
Advantage magic.

Damage: For the simple fact that most magic builds do little if anything to boost physical resistance despite it being so ever present it feels like stamina hits harder but the fact is if you actually use your destro staff and stack that spell pen you do great damage. All my mages have physical resistance somewhere it's dumb not to it. Stamina should stack damage magic should stack spell pen it's not hard.
Stamina lives and kills on burst while magic has more of a long term sustain set up going.
Even match when you know what you're doing and stop trying to get a taste of citrus from an apple

Defense: Much like damage stamina is still burst while magic is sustain even on defense. Stamina defenses guard against damage right then and there and do nothing immediately after. You can block or roll but that only help stop the damage flying in now not a after. Magic defense is easy just shield up. Even with the nerf to shield to 6 seconds it's still better that what stamina can do. Blocking stops your recovery of stamina meaning it's holding back your attacks and heals. Rolling get more and more expensive as you go. Shields cost the same every time, removes 100% of crit (don't say but, but they take unmitigated damage my 6k Poison Injection tick drops to 700 a tick on a shield that's not a small difference.

Now grants you have more then base health and have physical resistance you will be fine without your shields and very safe with them. For the high cost of stamina defense and the static cost and clear benefits of magic shield magic takes this one.

Weapons: Now this one will be a pain cause 80% of you will not accept the truth here. Stamina DPS has only two weapons, just like magic and tanking.
Restoration and Destruction Staves are for magic, Dual Wield and Bow is stamina and Twohanded and One Hand and Shield are for tanks/health builds.

Like at the effects in Twohanded and One Hand and Shield both get better not with stamina but with Health and in 1.5 Rally don't boost all weapon damage just Twohanded, Wrecking Blow was a joke cause you could bash to stop it. It's damage is so far beyond other powers why?? Cause it was made for builds with low damage that's why it's strong and has a knock back. It just happens to get better for stamina DPS then tanks.

When you get pass fire's DK synergy and Lightning's Sorcerer synergy you Ice staff is the most powerful one limitless snares and roots at range nonetheless it pretty OP. My frost Mage locks you down with Frost reach the reflect your range back and I can just root you over and over and over.

Healing Staff besides with small minded players say is very powerful the passives are great yes you need to be on the bar to use them but that makes sense. You can keep your normal class damage and add Quick Siphon morph no one uses in the restoration skill line and all your attacks turn into Templar's Jabs it's very OP when used with Jabs itself.

Bow sucks it's a Gank or Support weapon it's lacks the power to be used to kill from start to finish unless your target in new. Dual Wield is very well rounded.

Twohanded and One hand and Shield both work as they are meant to when not on a block casting Mage or stamina DPS they are very balanced.

Armor Passive: Light armor has just about 2k more spell resistance than medium and half as much armor as medium (and medium doesn't have an increased armor or spell resistance passive). Hardly a trade off because light armor is stuck with a useless passive (especially in PvP you can a sharpened weapon and 5 light for 100% penetration).
Stamina wins.

Healing: When you are forced to slot a resto staff because you aren't a templar. Sure there is 1 class (Magicka Templar) that has the best healing in game, but stamina builds can already heal through vet content - and Stam Templars have access to Major Mending for stronger Vigor heals. By the way, Vigor only takes 5 hour or less to unlock. Maxing 2h is easy especially since a stamina build will use one regardless. Dragon Blood is a sh*t heal in PvP - garbage.
Magicka Templar > Vigor. That's it.

Damage: For the simple fact every stamina build is pulling 10-20k more DPS than Magicka. Destro staff provides 10% spell penetration ONLY FOR DESTRUCTION STAFF SKILLS. Whereas maces provide a flat 20% armor penetration on all attacks. - Not to mention Major Fracture is much more widely available to apply - comes with damage dealing skills.
Stamina wins


Defense: I don't see any defensive passives for light armor besides the fully penetrated, near useless Spell Resistance. Dodge roll and sprint are reduced cost for medium armor builds and all share the same pool, not to mention how much easier it is to have high stam regen vs. high magicka recovery. Blocking as a medium armor build will likely only be used to block a meteor in PvP or a clutch lucky Dawnbreaker.
Stamina wins

Weapons: Streak costs more and more per use and Sorcerers (the legitimateagicka absorption class) were hit with the shield duration. The shielding you pointed out only really works for Sorcerers because they have the strongest shield in game, the only way for other magicka builds to utilize this is by having execute percentage health paired with hardened ward - which is easy to destroy with the 50% shield debuff not to mention those classes are forced to place champion points into shield absorption whereas Stamina can place 120 points into a tree and get Unchained. Dodge rolling is avoiding all damage - besides AoEs which Magickas best AoE was nerfed (Prox) and Channeled Abilities (Radiant Destruction is almost exclusive) - and having a effortless, given amount of high stamina recovery, players are still able to dodge roll near endlessly whereas Magicka is forced to balance magicka recovery and max magicka especially with the removal of vet ranks increasing all costs for magicka builds dramatically.
Let's also point out that Bow, 2h, dual wield get 20% cost reduction - Main DPS abilities - along with Medium Armor passive reductions not to memtion they already are low costing skills and scale much, much better. Let's compare that to how Magicka's main DPS skills come from their class skills which usually only get reduced by Light Armor passives.
Stamina wins by far - look at Damage too.

What two weapons does tanking have? Magicka DPS won't use a resto staff unless they're (forced) to in PvP. Stamina has 2h, Bow, and Dual Wield all viable in PvE - mainly dual wield and bow. In PvP, Stamina builds have access to S&B as well with good damage. Magicka is able to run S&B and Dual Wield but cannot utilize Light Attacks, Heavy Attacks, or their abilities because of lack of resources to be able to stack weapon damage or stamina as high as Stamina builds resulting a DPS decrease.

2H gets suberbly better with max stamina and weapon damage - it increases the healing with momentum and 20% weapon damage increase adds to their 12% weapon damage passive.
Sabre Ali was an amazing wrecking blow player in 1.5.
You mention 2h is only viable for Stamina DPS tanks? Why does just about every stam build run 2h/bow? FENGRUSH uses Dizzying Swing so he's a stamina tank? Tanks were designed to be in heavy armor and that is about it - every weapon skill was designed as filler moves to fulfill the play as you want slogan.

DK synergizes fire destro in PvE sure, but now they work better spamming heavy attacks with a lightning staff. This is much more synergy than Sorcerers using lightning attacks in PvP. Fire Heavy weaves work well in PvP woth all classes but magicka DK.
You mention an ice staff granting endless snares? A stamina build can do that more effectively and deal more damage - any gap closer adds a snare (used to be a root).

Healing staff is only used in PvP for the magicka regen heavy attacks (a slow channel) and Hardened Ward. You sure do have to lose a weapon slot whereas Vigor heals faster, more reliable than a healing shield that can be broken, and it doesn't require the player to have any certain weapon to use.

Poison Injection is one of the strongest DoTs in game due to it passively executing while you deal damage on your main bar. Some players use it as a support bar, sure, but the Major Expedition dodge roll paired along with medium armor synergizes well.

2H still works suberbly well on players blocking attacks. Notice how Uppercut is no longer interruptable? The damage that skill does is still strong. S&B stamina builds have another weavable skill - Bashing. LA -> Ransack -> Bash is 5-7k (in PvP) worth of damage easy.

All in all Stamina has better scaling CP choices, CP passives, better weapon design, better armor passives, better Stamina Races vs Magicka Races, and better overall dps (by 10-20k in PvE and PvP). Also Dawmbreaker of Smiting is a physical Damage ability instant, no telegraph, easy to weave, instant CC and much longer CC duration than Meteor, costs less and the DoT is applied to the person rather than sticking to the floor.
Dawnbreaker of Smiting has Mighty and Thaumaturge in the same CP tree and they both scale its initial and DoT damage so there's that too. - 120 Points in the ritual = more Ult gen! Where is the magicka equivalent in the Mage tree?!

Xeven

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

Armor Passive: Light armor has just about 2k more spell resistance than medium and half as much armor as medium (and medium doesn't have an increased armor or spell resistance passive). Hardly a trade off because light armor is stuck with a useless passive (especially in PvP you can a sharpened weapon and 5 light for 100% penetration).
Stamina wins.

While I agree with most of what you said, this is a common misconception. Medium armor can easily achieve 20k spell resists with buffs.

With 5 light, an epic sharpened destruction staff and 77 points into penetrating magic (100 into Elemental Expert) they are still mitigating 11.6% of all magic damage PASSIVELY through armor alone. We cannot fully penetrate 20k resists without LOL Weakness To Elements.

This is before the 18% minimum mitigation from Elemental Defender (because Unchained), 20% from Shuffle, and 50% from battle spirit are even brought into the picture.

TheHsN

Xeven wrote: »

you forgot to mark addinational 10000:D

jaye63

Question #1- Has there EVER been a balanced MMO?
Question #2- Have the game developers of any MMO made any balance changes that didnt upset half of the players?
Question #3- Since the answer to #1 and #2 are no, why do you continue to discuss it?
Question #4- The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Do you really expect a different result?



So this entire thread says to the devs and the rest of us... Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It get's everyone nowhere and is like the main topics of every election. They are hot button issues that never get resolved but trotted out to make people feel better about a complaint that can never be resolved.

CapuchinSeven

jaye63 wrote: »

Question #1- Has there EVER been a balanced MMO?
Question #2- Have the game developers of any MMO made any balance changes that didnt upset half of the players?
Question #3- Since the answer to #1 and #2 are no, why do you continue to discuss it?
Question #4- The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. Do you really expect a different result?



So this entire thread says to the devs and the rest of us... Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. It get's everyone nowhere and is like the main topics of every election. They are hot button issues that never get resolved but trotted out to make people feel better about a complaint that can never be resolved.

Not sure what you're getting at, in fact your entire post is mostly a strawman. There has never been a perfectly balanced MMO, no. There HAVE been well balanced MMOs and there have been MMOs much better balanced than ESO.

Some of us run stamina and magic builds. We can see the difference.

Sumpfheini

Xeven wrote: »

5 heavy with Major Resolve puts you at around 25k physical resistance.
Major Fracture subtracts 5280.
A sharpened weapon adds 5160 penetration.
A Maul ignores 20% or your resistance.


((25000-5280)*0.8-5160)/50000 ~= 21% mitigation.
Let's say you also have 18% mitigation from Hardy.

A decent Surprise Attack tooltip is:
8989*1.25(Mighty) = 11236

11236*0.82(Hardy) = 9213
9213*0.79(Resistance) = 7278
7278*0.5(Battle Spirit) = 3639

If you have 25k health you will be dead in less than 6 seconds after ~6 Surprise Attack/Light Attack weaves, but lets be real, you wouldn't let that happen.

What happens is this:

Bow Heavy > Poison Inject > Ambush > Incap Strike > Maul Light > Surprise Attack > Maul Light > Executioner

All of this happens in ~5 seconds.

The bow heavy and the poison inject are animation canceled from stealth and happen on second 1.
The Ambush happens on second 2 and Empowers the following Incap Strike.
The Incap Strike happens on second 3, knocks you down and applies Major Defile, reducing your healing by 30%.
The Maul Light and Surprise Attack happen on second 4, applying Major Fracture, reducing your armor.
The Maul Light and Executioner happen on second 5, killing you.

You don't even realize you're being attacked until you are breaking free from the Incap Strike, so what appears to be second 1 for you is actually the beginning of second 4 for the GankBlade. He's already balls deep.

you sir, deserve a medal for such a well argumented post!

So what is the solution? Nerfing selected builds will not do the trick, animation cancel seems to be a problem but no one wants to touch it since the game might get too clunky

Khaos_Bane

It is really F'ed up for sure. By GOD don't let those shields last longer than 6 seconds for those MAG builds !!!!

@Wrobel wtf man.

cjthibs

Get rid of animation cancelling, bring back soft caps.

Khaos_Bane

cjthibs wrote: »

Get rid of animation cancelling, bring back soft caps.

Keep animation canceling, but bring back soft caps.

cjthibs

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

cjthibs wrote: »

Get rid of animation cancelling, bring back soft caps.

Keep animation canceling, but bring back soft caps.

Meh. Why?
It's unintuitive and makes everything look stupid.
It's not documented in the game, is clearly unintended, and leads to all sorts of issues.
(No visual cues being just one.)

FENGRUSH

Waffennacht wrote: »

Anyone whom feels that the sets are even close to comparable to each other are just being stubborn.

This has been brought up MANY times before.

Remember my posts about only 2 magicka dps moves?
Remember my fire fight with Fengrush about STAM NO MATTER THE CLASS has a huge imbalance in moves and sets?

REMEMBER my posts about pigeonholed magicka builds?

Pepperidge Farms remembers...

I dont even remember fighting about this.

This is a completely valid topic put in a forum smeared with pretty brutal anecdotal bias from xeven. Ultimately, it wont get anything done. Fill in your complaints below I guess.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Sharee wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

The problem is not balanced the problem is perspective people want to have a mage with 45K magic 18K help with next to no physical resistance and want to say that then you die fast without a shield.

How about a heavy armor s/s DK with 30K physical resistance still dying fast despite holding block and spamming dragon blood?

Fear -> instant 7500 incap strike+3500 SA+ 2000 LA, followed by ~3000 poison injection ticks, ~2000 heavy weapon bleed ticks, 1000+ rearming trap DOT...

Still a perspective problem?

Well yea you are not putting up any pressure so they can unload on you and your perspective is that you have 30k but -5000 Armor resistance the CP star no one gets I have, sharpened bow or Twohanded -5120, Mark Target -5120 and I use a Hammer over an Axe the bleed is great but that 20% is good vs Tanky players where the bleed is not.

So in a normal fight I will cut 15k physical resistance and hit you with a -15% damage done with Heroic Slash and 30% healing debuff with Reverberating Bash you have half the resistance you thought you had. Less damage and weaker healer and I will just bit my time and CC you every five seconds to kill your stamina making you drop block.

From your view this makes stamina OP but my mages, I have 4 one of each class all do the same 15k resistance cut and all have a CC that's used every 5-6 seconds all drop a damage AND healing debuff. Everyone of my mages run restro/destro. You're like a guy with a shotgun wanting the range and power of an assault rifle, use what you have to it's max and let the other guy do the same.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Ohh and I run Crusher enchants so that's another -5120k off both resistances so that 20k off your resistance.

Izaki

@Samuel_Bantien Yes there's obviously the 3 second cooldown, but the Crystals can proc back to back. But either way I tested Velidreth for myself now and... the DPS is just stupid high. A must have for any PvE DPS build and pretty damn sweet in PvP for burst. Really strong set. Now thats what all monster sets should be like. ZOS should buff the others, rather than nerf this one.

Autolycus

/yawn

Xeven

FENGRUSH wrote: »

This is a completely valid topic put in a forum smeared with pretty brutal anecdotal bias from xeven. Ultimately, it wont get anything done.

Because LORD FENGRUSH has never used any form of media to smear his brutal anecdotal bias.

It's cool. I still love you.