A Conversation with ZOS on Balance

Nifty2g · August 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Please don't bring PvE into this thread.

I mean you are bringing all this stuff that effects PvE heavily, I wouldn't come and say that

Xeven · August 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Please don't bring PvE into this thread.

I mean you are bringing all this stuff that effects PvE heavily, I wouldn't come and say that

Actually not at all. At no point has anyone ever asked for a nerf to anyone in this thread. Magicka users want the gap closed, and I have CLEARLY shown that gap.

Anyone trying to deny the gap exists is being disingenuous, at best.

Nifty2g · August 2016

Anyway, for PvE favoritism I want to join in on this

Where the heck, is all the Spell Resistance debuffs? Why do you think Magicka DPS is so far behind. BOTH OF THESE SETS SHOULD BE PHYSICAL AND SPELL RESISTANCE

This Passive is currently broken and doesn't even work for Wall of Elements and it's morphs

raw

DHale · August 2016

Most forum posts are crap and I have to say this is 10/10 awesome. Great post and agree.

DocFrost72 · August 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Please don't bring PvE into this thread.

I mean you are bringing all this stuff that effects PvE heavily, I wouldn't come and say that

Actually not at all. At no point has anyone ever asked for a nerf to anyone in this thread. Magicka users want the gap closed, and I have CLEARLY shown that gap.

Anyone trying to deny the gap exists is being disingenuous, at best.

If you're asking for buffs, rock on. I just get nervous when people start talking about imbalance, then say "ignore PvE"

See, tanks.

Amdar_Godkiller · August 2016

Alkosh debuffs both I think, but believe me, I wish Nmg did as well. You do have easier access to the debuffs
though.

FireCowCommando · August 2016

Id recommend to take a drink every time you compare stamina to magicka, because i know Wrobel does

Seriously though, it would take at least a year to fix the mess were in now.

Thelon · August 2016

Xeven wrote: »

what in the actual fak. @Wrobel how is this acceptable?

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

You get to use two pools. Only an idiot would solely focus on one! Stam and Magic are balanced. Magic builds just aren't willing to sacrifice anything to adapt to the level playing field.
Roll dodge costs a like 5K, so unless you are risking insta-death in all well-fitted, it's not that much help. You do realize that
you are not prevented from using shuffle.

dafak did I just read?

- you get two use two pools, yet stamina can ignore Magicka entirely and still benefit from high damage, high healing and near limitless break free / roll dodge. The inverse is not the same for Magicka. gtfo

- Magicka builds should run shuffle? gtfo

- Stan and Magicka are balanced? This thread is full of OGs showing you exactly where the imbalances lie. gtfo

TARAFRAKA · August 2016

Thelon wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

what in the actual fak. @Wrobel how is this acceptable?

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

You get to use two pools. Only an idiot would solely focus on one! Stam and Magic are balanced. Magic builds just aren't willing to sacrifice anything to adapt to the level playing field.
Roll dodge costs a like 5K, so unless you are risking insta-death in all well-fitted, it's not that much help. You do realize that
you are not prevented from using shuffle.

dafak did I just read?

- you get two use two pools, yet stamina can ignore Magicka entirely and still benefit from high damage, high healing and near limitless break free / roll dodge. The inverse is not the same for Magicka. gtfo

- Magicka builds should run shuffle? gtfo

- Stan and Magicka are balanced? This thread is full of OGs showing you exactly where the imbalances lie. gtfo

TL;DR
Basically gtfo is what @thelon is saying, I think.

Soleya · August 2016

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Hymzir wrote: »

The original mechanics of the game were based on the idea that everyone would use magicka based class skills and supplement it with few weapon based stamina skills.

I said this way back in the day when it was kinda clear how the game had been build and got shot down a LOT by people who just simply wanted to keep playing Skyrim totally ignoring this was its own game in its own right.

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

You unlocked Regeneration after using a resto staff for 20 seconds.

Unless you are a really good player, you unlock Vigor after doing PVP for 10 hours.

You also forgot to draw a box around the Mutagen effect. "If you or your allies are low on health, the heal over time is consumed to heal immediately and remove harmful effect". Which is an instant 5k heal.

You can unlock Vigor by walking around empty keeps repairing walls and gates.

I agree, but it still makes more than a minute to unlock. It requires 90k AP if I remember correctly, which is about 1800 wall repairs. Which comes out to 165k gold.

Full repairing an upgraded keep will net you about 20k AP and take 15-20 mins.

To unlock regeneration, you put on a resto staff and turn in one quest, or kill a few monsters and you unlock it.

Valencer · August 2016

As a former magicka DK, this thread is a special kind of amusing. Sorcs and NBs finally feeling the heat, huh?

Qbiken · August 2016

@Thelon

- Magicka builds should run shuffle? gtfo

I use shuffle on my magplar and it works wonders so you gtfo XD

Jar_Ek · August 2016

The current gap between magicka and stamina has been a long time in the making. Do I think magicka is behind? Yes, probably.. but I don't think it is quite as one sided as has been made out though there are some indisputable anomalies/discrepancies. Having said that why we couldn't have had 3 separate destro staff lines I'll never know - hell why we couldn't have had different magicka schools rather than staves tbh.

Xeven · August 2016

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Hymzir wrote: »

The original mechanics of the game were based on the idea that everyone would use magicka based class skills and supplement it with few weapon based stamina skills.

I said this way back in the day when it was kinda clear how the game had been build and got shot down a LOT by people who just simply wanted to keep playing Skyrim totally ignoring this was its own game in its own right.

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

You unlocked Regeneration after using a resto staff for 20 seconds.

Unless you are a really good player, you unlock Vigor after doing PVP for 10 hours.

You also forgot to draw a box around the Mutagen effect. "If you or your allies are low on health, the heal over time is consumed to heal immediately and remove harmful effect". Which is an instant 5k heal.

You can unlock Vigor by walking around empty keeps repairing walls and gates.

I agree, but it still makes more than a minute to unlock. It requires 90k AP if I remember correctly, which is about 1800 wall repairs. Which comes out to 165k gold.

Full repairing an upgraded keep will net you about 20k AP and take 15-20 mins.

To unlock regeneration, you put on a resto staff and turn in one quest, or kill a few monsters and you unlock it.

Are we seriously talking about this? Who gives a ***? Id grind for days just to have access to anything even remotely close to what stamina has.

Izaki · August 2016

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Rally is definitely OP. I laugh every time I use it.
But so is breath of life.

Vigor isn't. It's a decent heal, but it's outclassed by restro skills and many class heals

I lol'd.

Samuel_Bantien · August 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

yep , PVP imbalance is there. But PVErs suffered for two years with the same dress an stick spec because ZOS refused to address stamina weakness because it would ruin the balance of Wheelers favorite spec.

I disagree with your PvE statement. Wheeler statement I like.

Since 1.3 Stamina has been the top single target DPS and the semi-top AoE DPS in PvE.
Stamina builds lacked Dynamic Ultimate Regen but were able to push out far more raw damage. Magicka builds were forced to pump out as much ultimates as they could but were still unable to surpass Stambuild's raw damage.

The reason they lacked in PvP was because they could not pump out as much ultimates as magicka builds because Stamina only gained Ultimate from Critical hits but Impen blocked crit chance.

Now we move to update 1.6. - The destruction of PvP.
We have now removed dynamic ultimate gemeration - Stamina builds now deal more damage than magicka while also being granted far more ultimate than they could before, not to mention they recieve the one of the strongest heals in game (most magicka builds are forced into a whole weapon to have a decent heal now - Restoration Staff a whole weapon Vs. 1 skill slot).

CP system highly favors Stamina - Unchained and that one Ultimate Generation passive.

Not to mention Weapon Damage was easily (stackable now!) softcapped and easily hardcapped with Caltrops + Ravager back then, so we have are forced into a power craving state.

Impenetrable was what stopped 1 Shot Bow builds from killing players out of stealth in 1.5, but we have moved on and stam can now 1 shot people out of stealth because they have the ability to crit - not to mention they are doing this with 50% damage reduction from Battle Spirit.

Back to PvE now. We can all just read the threads about how stamina is pulling 10-20k more dps than magicka builds... Zzz.

Xeven hit the spot with all his comparisons. He forgot to highlight how the Lich Crystals take 3 seconds to blow up for less damage than Velidreth! XD
Also Blood Spawn has stamina recovery WTB magicka recovery Undaunted.

Soleya · August 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Hymzir wrote: »

The original mechanics of the game were based on the idea that everyone would use magicka based class skills and supplement it with few weapon based stamina skills.

I said this way back in the day when it was kinda clear how the game had been build and got shot down a LOT by people who just simply wanted to keep playing Skyrim totally ignoring this was its own game in its own right.

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

You unlocked Regeneration after using a resto staff for 20 seconds.

Unless you are a really good player, you unlock Vigor after doing PVP for 10 hours.

You also forgot to draw a box around the Mutagen effect. "If you or your allies are low on health, the heal over time is consumed to heal immediately and remove harmful effect". Which is an instant 5k heal.

You can unlock Vigor by walking around empty keeps repairing walls and gates.

I agree, but it still makes more than a minute to unlock. It requires 90k AP if I remember correctly, which is about 1800 wall repairs. Which comes out to 165k gold.

Full repairing an upgraded keep will net you about 20k AP and take 15-20 mins.

To unlock regeneration, you put on a resto staff and turn in one quest, or kill a few monsters and you unlock it.

Are we seriously talking about this? Who gives a ***? Id grind for days just to have access to anything even remotely close to what stamina has.

Magicka builds have both shields and multiple heals available. Breath of Life/Honor the Dead are far better than Vigor.

My templars BOL heals more than double what my stamblade's vigor heals. And it does it instantly not over 5 seconds. So please don't tell me magicka builds don't have any good heals.

E-Zekiel · August 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

And for what it's worth 2610 x 5 =13050

13050/4 seconds = 3262.5 heals per second

15200/5 seconds = 3040 heals per second with that morph, so less healing per tick than Illustrious

Irrelevant. 4 seconds vs 5 seconds. You can move with vigor (huge), you don't have to target the ground, and it's not tied to an otherwise *** weapon. Combine this with shuffle, rally, dodge roll, block and 20k resists, and you can face tank a magicka build because they cant out DPS your HoTs.

If you're going to ignore and disqualify every single point brought up that doesn't adhere to your nitpicky tunnel vision that determines there is only one use for literally everything, you're really not the person to be asking about balance.

Sorry, man.

For the record, again, I think vigor is a little OP, and I do think there is a gap, but I think you are reaching way too far. And it's important to not do that when trying to make good points.

Also, for the record, I spend most of my time in Cyrodiil. Sorry that you think caring about things other than PVP, or that having differing opinions from your own means a person is clueless about PVP, but it doesn't.

Xeven · August 2016

Uh, I hate to break it to you but, for almost half the cost, Vigor heals more than BoL, a class specific, class defining heal. Vigor scales REALLY well with Stamina/Weapon Damage. Both screenshots with 40k mag/stam and 4k weapon/spell power:

See for yourself if you don't believe me.

dsalter · August 2016

Xeven wrote: »

I'd like to point something else out to @Wrobel and everyone else. These passives DO NOT APPLY after swapping back to your DPS weapon which means... Your HoTs do not benefit from these passives, and your healing ward does not benefit from these passives! Theyre ALMOST USELESS!

they litterally say with a restoration staff EQUIPPED, meaning you switch, you no longer have it equipped.

Amdar_Godkiller · August 2016

Thelon wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

what in the actual fak. @Wrobel how is this acceptable?

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

You get to use two pools. Only an idiot would solely focus on one! Stam and Magic are balanced. Magic builds just aren't willing to sacrifice anything to adapt to the level playing field.
Roll dodge costs a like 5K, so unless you are risking insta-death in all well-fitted, it's not that much help. You do realize that
you are not prevented from using shuffle.

dafak did I just read?

- you get two use two pools, yet stamina can ignore Magicka entirely and still benefit from high damage, high healing and near limitless break free / roll dodge. The inverse is not the same for Magicka. gtfo

- Magicka builds should run shuffle? gtfo

- Stan and Magicka are balanced? This thread is full of OGs showing you exactly where the imbalances lie. gtfo

And Stamina is constantly pulling on their primary resource to survive while magicka has an easy 15K stamina just for avoiding ***. I can't dodge roll with magic and that's more useful than any spell on a stam build.

Break free is broken. It doesn't work at all most of the time, so you GTFO.

Why the *** wouldn't you run shuffle? If it's op and doesn't involve any amount of Stam/WD scaling, and doesn't drain your primary resource, then it's just common sense. LTP or GTFO

Stam and Magic are always going to be imbalanced, but it's no where near as bad as it was for stam just 4 months ago.
My main point is that you sound like a moron when you whine about Vigor, because as I've shown, it is definitively weaker
than Restro heals, and it's pathetic compared to BOL. Same spell and weapon damage, but with 80% more Stamina and
Illustrious Healing and Vigor put out nearly equal ticks. SO GTFO.

Xeven · August 2016

dsalter wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

I'd like to point something else out to @Wrobel and everyone else. These passives DO NOT APPLY after swapping back to your DPS weapon which means... Your HoTs do not benefit from these passives, and your healing ward does not benefit from these passives! Theyre ALMOST USELESS!

they litterally say with a restoration staff EQUIPPED, meaning you switch, you no longer have it equipped.

Yep. In other words, you have to main bar an LOL restoration staff to make use of it's passives, where as with vigor, you don't need to do *** except stack damage.

Waffennacht · August 2016

Anyone whom feels that the sets are even close to comparable to each other are just being stubborn.

This has been brought up MANY times before.

Remember my posts about only 2 magicka dps moves?
Remember my fire fight with Fengrush about STAM NO MATTER THE CLASS has a huge imbalance in moves and sets?

REMEMBER my posts about pigeonholed magicka builds?

Pepperidge Farms remembers...

Joy_Division · August 2016

LOL at the people trying to argue mutagen is just as good or better than vigor. Especially those so desperate to save the stam meta that they actually used "it's easiest to unlock" as a justification. What a joke.

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Hymzir wrote: »

The original mechanics of the game were based on the idea that everyone would use magicka based class skills and supplement it with few weapon based stamina skills.

I said this way back in the day when it was kinda clear how the game had been build and got shot down a LOT by people who just simply wanted to keep playing Skyrim totally ignoring this was its own game in its own right.

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

You unlocked Regeneration after using a resto staff for 20 seconds.

Unless you are a really good player, you unlock Vigor after doing PVP for 10 hours.

You also forgot to draw a box around the Mutagen effect. "If you or your allies are low on health, the heal over time is consumed to heal immediately and remove harmful effect". Which is an instant 5k heal.

You can unlock Vigor by walking around empty keeps repairing walls and gates.

I agree, but it still makes more than a minute to unlock. It requires 90k AP if I remember correctly, which is about 1800 wall repairs. Which comes out to 165k gold.

Full repairing an upgraded keep will net you about 20k AP and take 15-20 mins.

To unlock regeneration, you put on a resto staff and turn in one quest, or kill a few monsters and you unlock it.

Are we seriously talking about this? Who gives a ***? Id grind for days just to have access to anything even remotely close to what stamina has.

Magicka builds have both shields and multiple heals available. Breath of Life/Honor the Dead are far better than Vigor.

My templars BOL heals more than double what my stamblade's vigor heals. And it does it instantly not over 5 seconds. So please don't tell me magicka builds don't have any good heals.

Hooray for your FOTM templar. Now go roll a DK and watch how your "burst" heal is less than a vigor tick.

Amdar_Godkiller · August 2016

But BoL gets a massive boost from major mending, and so does restro staff. Both skill lines have access to 30% boost and templars get even more when someone's at low health which is the big issue with it.
Now is it tougher with Restro to do? Kind of, but you typically spend a lot of time heavy attacking with a Restro Staff for
the Magic return anyway. I have no idea if bar swapping actually will cancel out your bonuses, but test it before you
cry foul.

Bottom line, vigor is one of two stam heals. It should be strong. It is a solid, but it's not any better than what every magic build
has access to. It does less per tick than Illustrious Healing and can't be performed at range. Vigor also doesn't have an emergency burst heal when your low on health that auto-saves you like healing ward and Mutagen.

The issue isn't Vigor or Rally, or even BoL or Restro skills. The issue is that healing is too powerful in the game. Period.

And this is without even weighing the effects of Blessed...

Nifty2g · August 2016

Did we compare mages guild with fighters guild yet?

Amdar_Godkiller · August 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

LOL at the people trying to argue mutagen is just as good or better than vigor. Especially those so desperate to save the stam meta that they actually used "it's easiest to unlock" as a justification. What a joke.

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Hymzir wrote: »

The original mechanics of the game were based on the idea that everyone would use magicka based class skills and supplement it with few weapon based stamina skills.

I said this way back in the day when it was kinda clear how the game had been build and got shot down a LOT by people who just simply wanted to keep playing Skyrim totally ignoring this was its own game in its own right.

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

You unlocked Regeneration after using a resto staff for 20 seconds.

Unless you are a really good player, you unlock Vigor after doing PVP for 10 hours.

You also forgot to draw a box around the Mutagen effect. "If you or your allies are low on health, the heal over time is consumed to heal immediately and remove harmful effect". Which is an instant 5k heal.

You can unlock Vigor by walking around empty keeps repairing walls and gates.

I agree, but it still makes more than a minute to unlock. It requires 90k AP if I remember correctly, which is about 1800 wall repairs. Which comes out to 165k gold.

Full repairing an upgraded keep will net you about 20k AP and take 15-20 mins.

To unlock regeneration, you put on a resto staff and turn in one quest, or kill a few monsters and you unlock it.

Are we seriously talking about this? Who gives a ***? Id grind for days just to have access to anything even remotely close to what stamina has.

Magicka builds have both shields and multiple heals available. Breath of Life/Honor the Dead are far better than Vigor.

My templars BOL heals more than double what my stamblade's vigor heals. And it does it instantly not over 5 seconds. So please don't tell me magicka builds don't have any good heals.

Hooray for your FOTM templar. Now go roll a DK and watch how your "burst" heal is less than a vigor tick.

DK definitely needs some love, but everything that I've posted was done on a DK. Nobody can get as big of heals with a restro
staff as DKs due to Igneous Shield's Major mending, and the passive that boosts heals by 12% with any draconic skill active.
You'll get 13-15K burst crit heals from Obsidian Shard or Combat Prayer all day with those two skills running. And all it requires is popping a shield and Spike armor to get there. Dragon blood sucks and Cauterize is the worst skill in the game, but DKs can heal.

Soleya · August 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Uh, I hate to break it to you but, for almost half the cost, Vigor heals more than BoL, a class specific, class defining heal. Vigor scales REALLY well with Stamina/Weapon Damage. Both screenshots with 40k mag/stam and 4k weapon/spell power:

See for yourself if you don't believe me.

I can't check my tooltips, but I'll just go with what you said. Thanks for the info.

I'll start queuing my stamblade as healer for dungeons and trials and just spam VIgor, since it's the best heal in the game.

I'm sure the groups I run with will be happy with that.

CapuchinSeven · August 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

And for what it's worth 2610 x 5 =13050

13050/4 seconds = 3262.5 heals per second

15200/5 seconds = 3040 heals per second with that morph, so less healing per tick than Illustrious

Irrelevant. 4 seconds vs 5 seconds. You can move with vigor (huge), you don't have to target the ground, and it's not tied to an otherwise *** weapon. Combine this with shuffle, rally, dodge roll, block and 20k resists, and you can face tank a magicka build because they cant out DPS your HoTs.

Totally correct, it's comical people are trying to argue otherwise, lets not forget immunity to snares. Do some of you forget that some of us have magic and stamina builds/characters? The difference on my stamina build is like night and day with weaker gear!

For fun I ran a double bow build a few days ago just to see if I could mash my head on the keyboard and still win with only a bow, the only thing I had any trouble with was DKs using wings.

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

You can cast illustrious healing in front of you and fall into it if you want. You can dodge roll AC combat prayer
all day. I know because I do it. Combat Prayer grants one of the strongest and rarest buffs in the game

Put some damn Stam recovery glyphs on your build then! You get to use two pools. Only an idiot would solely focus on one! Stam and Magic are balanced. Magic builds just aren't willing to sacrifice anything to adapt to the level playing field.
Roll dodge costs a like 5K, so unless you are risking insta-death in all well-fitted, it's not that much help. You do realize that
you are not prevented from using shuffle.

GREAT IDEA! Just what I need, EVEN LESS damage on my magic NB that is already doing less damage than my stamina NB which also happens to have total immunity to snares, more dodge rolls, more blocks and more resists.

*slow clap*

AfkNinja · August 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Uh, I hate to break it to you but, for almost half the cost, Vigor heals more than BoL, a class specific, class defining heal. Vigor scales REALLY well with Stamina/Weapon Damage. Both screenshots with 40k mag/stam and 4k weapon/spell power:

See for yourself if you don't believe me.

Did you intentionally not use major mending and other buffs for that templar? Cause c'mon, we all know a healer templar in good gear is much closer to 20k on that heal in pve....before it crits.