A Conversation with ZOS on Balance

Thelon

Xeven

Decent.

Rohamad_Ali

Xeven

Xeven

JD2013

"Balance"

The most subjective word in an MMO.

Even if all the abilities did exactly the same healing and damage, people would still complain about "balance"

Even WoW, which has been out many more years, gets lots of complaints about balancing classes. In an MMO it's mostly an illusion.

Xeven

s7732425ub17_ESO

Xeven wrote: »

You are comparing a set that originally only dropped in hardmode Trials and was very difficult to get to a crafted set that everyone has.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Xeven wrote: »

You are comparing an ability that is meant to provide a smaller healing tick over a longer period of time. And it costs less than Vigor.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Xeven wrote: »

You are comparing Meteor, which has a DOT that ticks for 3k and lasts for 10 seconds (30k damage) to Dawnbreaker which only has a 10K damage DOT. So if you want more burst damage, save up more Ultimate for Meteor. If you want more damage over a long period of time, use Dawnbreaker.

Xeven

5 skill points. 2 passives.


2 skill points. 1 passive.

Thelon

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

So if you want more burst damage, save up more Ultimate for Meteor. If you want more damage over a long period of time, use Dawnbreaker.

Xeven

For reference all screenshots were taken with 30k stam/mag and 3k spell/weapon damage. Check it out. It's kind of awesome.

Lightninvash

must be a one sided conversation since Zos doesn't know what balance is

Wycks

Asmael

Ah nice, wanted an easy way to compare LA and MA.

Assuming 7/0/0 setups...

LA
28% mag recovery
21% mag cost reduction
2541 spell resistance
2191 spell critical
4884 spell penetration (equivalent to 4884 / 662 ~= up to 7.38% damage increase)

MA
28% stam recovery
21% stam cost reduction
2296 weapon critical (+105, less than an extra %)
12% weapon damage (equivalent to 360 weapon damage with a base of 3000 WD, should be around 6% damage increase, varies a lot depending on max stam and actual weapon damage)
49% sneaking cost reduction
35% detection area reduction
3% sprint speed
28% dodge roll cost reduction

Did not account for MA bonus armor (simply because it's a "medium" and not "light" armor, so similar spell resist, higher physical resist).

While the damage values are similar, there's quite a bit of utility in wearing MA. The sneaking bonuses are rarely relevant, but looks like LA could use a side bonus in the same vein as dodge roll cost reduction / sprint speed.

Brutusmax1mus

Your comparison are idiotic at best.

Craftable set vs end game set only a few will achieve. Common. They also serve different purposes. Seducers is a healing set, not a dps set. I will agree vicious serpent does A LOT, as it should for what it takes to get it.

I'll take meteor over dbos any day as magicka. Circular aoe vs cone. Better dot and a snare.

Forgetting the best part of mutagen, the burst heal that needs no magicka out attention, in 2 seconds you can do more healing immediately with it then vigor can. It is much cheaper. And does more healing to your teammates than vigor.

Wow is a different game.

Passives, OK there is one.

I'm glad you don't balance. I have no issues with any of my magicka characters.

Joy_Division

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Your comparison are idiotic at best.

Craftable set vs end game set only a few will achieve. Common. They also serve different purposes. Seducers is a healing set, not a dps set. I will agree vicious serpent does A LOT, as it should for what it takes to get it.

I'll take meteor over dbos any day as magicka. Circular aoe vs cone. Better dot and a snare.

Forgetting the best part of mutagen, the burst heal that needs no magicka out attention, in 2 seconds you can do more healing immediately with it then vigor can. It is much cheaper. And does more healing to your teammates than vigor.

Wow is a different game.

Passives, OK there is one.

I'm glad you don't balance. I have no issues with any of my magicka characters.

If you think mutagen is anywhere near as effective or versatile as vigor, you are in no position to call anybody's opinions on balance as idiotic.

E-Zekiel

Xeven wrote: »

Yeah, nevermind that 30k DOT. You're absolutely right!


._.

TARAFRAKA

Thelon wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

So if you want more burst damage, save up more Ultimate for Meteor. If you want more damage over a long period of time, use Dawnbreaker.

Have my babies.
Wait I think I'm confused how this works.

Xeven

E-Zekiel wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Yeah, nevermind that 30k DOT. You're absolutely right!


._.

You mean the 1k dps (after spirit/defender/resists) ground based DOT that no idiot ever stands in, or would you like to rethink that?

Saucy_Jack

Well, it depends on how the DOT works. From reading it, it seems like people/mobs only take damage as long as they're in the "target area". If that's the case, then anyone who stands in a DOT area for 10 whole seconds isn't a bad player; they're having a stroke and they're paralyzed on the floor.

Now, if the DOT simply gets applied to whoever the meteor initially hits regardless of whether they stay in or out of the target area, then yeah, ice comet deserves the additional ultimate cost.

Xeven

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

Now, if the DOT simply gets applied to whoever the meteor initially hits regardless of whether they stay in or out of the target area, then yeah, ice comet deserves the additional ultimate cost.

Thats how the Dawnbreaker dot works. It sticks to you, and you can see it as kind of a yellow cloud on your character.

The meteor DOT is ground based.
There is a full 2 second telegraph beginning with a loud boom and a rune at your feet!!
Easily blockable, and if you block, you are not snared either.

Meanwhile you can stack dawnbreaker with any gapcloser. There is no telegraph. It is animation cancelable and instant. It's dot is target based. It does 20% more damage to vampires and werewolves, and, its cheap AF.

SickDuck

Asmael wrote: »

Ah nice, wanted an easy way to compare LA and MA.

Assuming 7/0/0 setups...

LA
28% mag recovery
21% mag cost reduction
2541 spell resistance
2191 spell critical
4884 spell penetration (equivalent to 4884 / 662 ~= up to 7.38% damage increase)

MA
28% stam recovery
21% stam cost reduction
2296 weapon critical (+105, less than an extra %)
12% weapon damage (equivalent to 360 weapon damage with a base of 3000 WD, should be around 6% damage increase, varies a lot depending on max stam and actual weapon damage)
49% sneaking cost reduction
35% detection area reduction
3% sprint speed
28% dodge roll cost reduction

Did not account for MA bonus armor (simply because it's a "medium" and not "light" armor, so similar spell resist, higher physical resist).

While the damage values are similar, there's quite a bit of utility in wearing MA. The sneaking bonuses are rarely relevant, but looks like LA could use a side bonus in the same vein as dodge roll cost reduction / sprint speed.

In combat the difference is 2541 spell resistance vs 28% dodge roll cost. While dodge rolls are powerful they still require lot of the primary resource + active use to get the benefit. The spell resist offers less protection but constant and free.

Things go much worse if you compare 5-1-1 setup. While both lose out on resource management MA loses crit rate (dps) too.

E-Zekiel

Xeven wrote: »

E-Zekiel wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Yeah, nevermind that 30k DOT. You're absolutely right!


._.

You mean the 1k dps (after spirit/defender/resists) ground based DOT that no idiot ever stands in, or would you like to rethink that?

Not really, no. Because the damage potential is significantly higher - ice comet more than doubling and well on its way to tripling Dawnbreaker of smiting.

If you think the cost is that unbalanced, you're either considering its uses wrong or ignoring its use in PVE. Take your pick.

Note: I agree with your vigor comparison, however. I feel it costs too little for how much it heals.

Xeven

Please don't bring PvE into this thread.

SleepyTroll

I'm sure it's really hard to balance a game where everyone can do everything at the same time, with no soft caps.

Carbonised

Stam has vs magicka:
- Better heals (that also don't require running around with a friggin useless resto staff btw)
- Better & cheaper ultimates (shooting star in pvp is hillariously underperforming vs dawnbreaker. Not only can you see it coming for miles, it's also blockable and no one friggin stands in the aoe after it's cast. And for DOUBLE the cost of Dawnbreaker)
- Better armor skills & mitigation
- Way, way, way better sets. Where the f*ck is magicka DPS 5 bonus awesome trial set? Oh yeah, there is none
- Way, way, way better MA weapons
- Easy stacking of thousands of more weapon damage vs. spell damage
- A huge pool of dodgeroll, block and break free. While mag breaks free once, dodge rolls once, and is forevermore a sitting duck
- Shuffle with a friggin 23 secs of 20 % dodge chance and snare immunity vs light armor shield which is a huge joke in pvp due to Cyrodiil shield nerfing, and now also only lasts as long as it takes to blink an eye

Thanks @Xeven for showing plain and clear the huge imbalance between stam and mag at the moment.
Anyone who has anything to say against that should take a walk in any Cyrodiil campaign and see that there is nothing but 7 stam wrecking balls for every 1 magicka who goes there in their pajamas and walking stick, just waiting to be steamrolled over.

UltimaJoe777

Do you people even Balance?

I mean come on just morph Equilibrium and there's your Balance!

Xeven

I'm just getting warmed up. Check this s*** out. These are absolute game changers for all stamina characters.




Here is the new meta:

Bow Heavy >> Poison Inject >> Crit Rush >> Dawnbreaker >> Maul Heavy >> Executioner

GG. Goodnight. Get your macros ready.

Magicka has nothing even REMOTELY comparable.

Edit for obligatory:

Carbonised

Bows and poison injection are already shredding everything in pvp as it is, but hey, I have my *** crushing shock to spam haven't I. Let's hope the enemy does not move so I can take him down with about 10-12 crushing shocks, and let's hope I don't run out of magicka due to the insane cost for horrible damage

And twohanders are already wrecking balling everything in melee, but hey, let me get my 6k shield that lasts for 6 seconds up, and maybe if I spam Mutagen and Healing springs until my magicka runs out, there's a chance he won't get me down within the first 5-6 seconds or so.