Game balancing: where is the counter to passive Dodging ?

hrothbern · July 2016

SleepyTroll wrote: »

RD why do you think they want it nerfed OP? It's an amazing hard counter but if you use it anyway other then an execute prepare for the whispecs.
Yes I know RD is a little to strong right now, but so is shuffle.

For me the main reason why RD should not be the general counter to dodging is that RD is not, like Shield Breaker, or penetrations, or Defiles, etc available for all classes.

I am fine with one class having a better counter than general available counters. There must also be differences.
For example the Alliance War Purge versus the Templar Cleansing Ritual.
But there should be general available counters that function as ranged attacks or debuff dodging as secondary effect from a ranged attack.

For example:
Caltrops is nowadays not spammed anymore, being a good way to get your Healing Taken debuffed.
If I wear Fasalla's Guile and I see Caltrops, I always consider to walk through it, depending on the situation

So why not add a 2 seconds debuff to dodge when hit by Caltrops ?
you get the dodge debuff, but it is not a free ride, you increase your own risk to survive.

And my personal 2 cents on RD is to reduce "only" the range to 25 meter in PVE and 27 meter in PVP, exactly like with Daedric Tomb.
Because Battle Spirit is only increasing the range with 8 meter for abilities with a 28 meter range or bigger, this is an effective change in Cyro.
It lessens the crossfire from a couple of Templars together AND it forces the RD Templars to be more in the front line or just before the front line and take some risks themselves...
or... they have to cast Propelling Shield first to get that 7 meter additional range and that costs a lot of Magicka... reducing their current Magicka and for RO reducing their damage.

you should get nothing for free

Draxys · July 2016

In order to make a counter to passive dodge chance, they would have to make sure that it grants a different type of dodge than if you dodge roll. I'm not sure how it works currently, just a thought.

I fully agree with needing a counter to passive dodge, but if they aren't already separate, I don't trust zos to do that without seriously screwing something up.

Something that was suggested in another thread on this, was to make shuffle grant a passive 20% chance to mitigate an incoming hit by 50% or something like that. Would be a viable alternate way to balance it without having figure out how to separate the two forms of dodging (again, if that's even necessary).

NeillMcAttack · July 2016

The only problem with dodging is the size of the window in which you dodge everything AFTER the roll. Let's be honest here. Who here wasn't witnessed their own character doing the "I just dodged an attack" animation after you have come out of the dodge and are capable of casting spells still???!

This is without even having an evasion buff up! I know I have, on many occasion, been able to cast two, maybe even three spells in that window. Which is why the argument of timing kinda goes out "the window". Because their isn't a window in which to land any sort of control, especially if that control spell, be it frost clench, crippling crap, stone fist etc, is a projectile.

So you see, being able to cast shuffle AND wait for the dodge roll punishment to subside and re-cast it, basically means there is ZERO timing, if running seven medium, where you can actually be caught out!!!

Armitas · July 2016

Shoot where is the game balance period. It is so out of control and they aren't even discussing doing something about it. It's just plain negligent, but at least in 1 day we can RP with our races. Whooo i feel so alive drinking on my Nord Whooo.

Edziu · July 2016

Armitas wrote: »

Shoot where is the game balance period. It is so out of control and they aren't even discussing doing something about it. It's just plain negligent, but at least in 1 day we can RP with our races. Whooo i feel so alive drinking on my Nord Whooo.

if this problem with balance is with rolldodge...so then revome please rolldodges from game...or maybe do only 1 per minute, all damage shields same, high burst heales also + make bloking albe only if you have shield...without shield you will be not able to block anything, no more sustain without pure tank with shield, all will be happy then

Vangy · July 2016

AOE. Steel nado, proxy det, batswarm, or pretty much any kind of aoe/ground dot..... .. And our most favourite RD. You want to complain about counter? Ask for whats the counter to penetration... There isnt... Even with full heavy you are going to be sitting at barely 10k resists against any proper specced DPS for PvP...... At least shields cant be crit so it saves you that trouble... As stam DPS wearing medium your only defense is dodge roll and doge. No shields, barely any better defense than light armour....... *** AOE short of bombard spamming monkey. There's a reason why 90% of group plays use mag DPS with barely 2 bombard spamming monkeys in their group. Cos stam sucks in open world AvA. Its just good when u kite around rocks and kill stupid potatoes who get split up and bursted down. Any group of competent players hitting you and you cant showcase your ridiculous 1 v x videos.....

Dracane · July 2016

Vangy wrote: »

AOE. Steel nado, proxy det, batswarm, or pretty much any kind of aoe/ground dot..... .. And our most favourite RD. You want to complain about counter? Ask for whats the counter to penetration... There isnt... Even with full heavy you are going to be sitting at barely 10k resists against any proper specced DPS for PvP...... At least shields cant be crit so it saves you that trouble... As stam DPS wearing medium your only defense is dodge roll and doge. No shields, barely any better defense than light armour....... *** AOE short of bombard spamming monkey. There's a reason why 90% of group plays use mag DPS with barely 2 bombard spamming monkeys in their group. Cos stam sucks in open world AvA. Its just good when u kite around rocks and kill stupid potatoes who get split up and bursted down. Any group of competent players hitting you and you cant showcase your ridiculous 1 v x videos.....

This is not true at all ! The only magicka users that run around in pvp seem to be Templars and wing spamming Dks.
I see nothing but stam everywhere. Because Stamina is super mobile, highest damage possible and best sustain. There is no single reason to run Magicka nowadays besides being a Templar or disliking the physical weapon style. I only see Magicka pve fools inside the sewers. But their group can't even last 10 seconds. What can they do ? They must eat each hit. They can only heal and shield, but this does nothing to stop a decent player. 1 CC and it's over. Stamina on the other hand can completely avoid damage for a very long time.

Stamina shines in all aspects of the game, the only exception being a group healer. Despite Vigor being a mighty HoT, the range makes stam healers hard to play in groups

Izaki · July 2016

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Dawnbreaker. Fear. Sap essence. Curse. Streak. JESUS BEAM. Meteor. Soul assault. Jabs. PRESSURE. If they keep dodging, they won't have much gas to hit you. Idk. Even when I played my magic sorcerer, BEFORE they added the increase cost to dodge rolling, I still never saw an issue with dodge rollers.

Well on a sorc thing is... You can't spam streak right ? You can't spam curse right? They won't have much gas to hit you sure, but when there's a hord of dodging mofos you can't really apply pressure right? Its harder on a sorc definetly but still doable.
On a nb things are easier for sure : fear, sap
On a temp things are even easier : sweeps and jesus beam (pretty much THE two only attacks most people use)

Pinja · July 2016

Liofa wrote: »

Hey . I must say before anything else that I didn't read everything that is written on this topic . Just letting you know .

This is going to be a wall of text but please read all before you start yelling .

Roll Dodge : This is a mechanic that is available to everyone . Either Magicka or Stamina . Stamina users can do it more of course but Magicka users have shields . Roll Dodge reduces the damage of an attack to 0 , yes , but magicka users have shields which is pretty reliable + completely absorbs 90% (maybe not those nasty incaps) of all the damaging abilities . And there are the roll dodges which you can still hit while your target is in mid-roll . For example , Dawnbreaker , one of the strongest Ultimates in this game . With the upcoming Amberplasm set , I don't think Magicka users will have any problems with Roll Dodging .

Dodge : Obtainable with mainly Shuffle . Again , with the new set , Amberplasm , we will see lots of Magicka users who use this (not mentioning mNB with Blur) . Absolutely agree that it is the most powerful defensive buff in the game for stamina AND magicka users . If it is usable by anyone , I don't see a problem with it . I don't even want to talk about the new Gossamer set . Damn zergs will now have Shuffle up pretty much all the time .

Roll Dodge Builds : I don't know if you fought a Monkey build but they hit much lesser than a proper fighter . They use Well-Fitted on all pieces , recovery enchants on jewelry and huge amount of points into Thumbling . They sacrifice lots of stuff to roll dodge that much . Those builds are pretty much nothing without kiting their opponent . Sometimes , we go IC with friends ( 3-4 man groups ) and we see lots of those . They just try to gank one of us and fail because of the lack of damage . As a tank build , I just hit them a few times and watch them roll dodge to the other side of map while spamming Vigor and getting in and out of buildings . It is funny to be honest .

RNG : Classic ESO . There is nothing we can do about that . Sometimes you just dodge 5 in a row , sometimes you just take 20 hits in a row without a single dodge . There is nothing more upsetting than a Magicka build dodging your stun right after you take his shields down .

Shield Breaker : I said pretty good stuff about shields . I can't leave that there while this set exists . Don't get me wrong . I am not going to say ''This set should be nerfed'' . No . This set is shield stackers most fearful nightmare and should continue to be so . This set is being used by maybe 5% (maybe less) of all the players . If you think you should be able to counter this set as a shield stacker , you ask for too much .

Solution : Even though I defended the existance of Dodge and Roll Dodge , I would like a new buff which reduces the chance of your attacks dodged or a new weapon trait maybe ?

EDIT : What I said in Solution part applies only to Evasion kind of dodge . Not to Roll Dodge .

Besides from a new buff or a new weapon trait , we can get rid of a useless CP and put a ''Reduces the chance of your attacks being dodged by %X'' kind of CP in blue tree (so people have to sacrifice damage to get more precise hits) maybe . That might be a better option actually .

Amberplasm:

Amberplasm is a set that I've been seeing many 'endorsements' on here in regards to magic builds next patch & really I don't C much game changing effects in it. According to the stats I've seen here the fifth piece offers less then two stam glyphs worth of recovery when its golded out... Not to mention it's bind on pick up so I personally have to go out and get it for four glyphs (non infused) worth of recovery that replaces another fifth piece (not to say there's not much else out their for magicka...) I have ran stam recovery on medium monster sets before I glyphed them out & it helps but its no stam build equalizer when it comes to recovery... & whats up with medium armor sets doing all these magnificent arcane acts??? For them its a matter of which do I want more, blow ppl up while I'm roll dodging or do two Vicious Deaths worth of poison damage on three different sets with basic attacks alone so I can get my roll dodge abusing stamina back? While we're going to make a sorc assemble a team of 12 ppl, to clime a mountain & get a set with some extra recovery like that's overpowered... Add a procing amber bomb to the fifth trait, then make it bind on pick-up...

Roll dodging builds:

Roll dodging builds are wormy, spineless, nuisances yes. But topped off with Nightblade cheese can be a problem for projectile based classes & 'glass cannons'. Not to mention there unchecked mobility makes them worthy Camper's & an effective build for anyone who wants to get off free damage. They hit you as a tank & say oh no. But the thing is there free to try & as you say just roll away. Can a DK chain them, no. Stacked on top of invisibility brakes to escape & regen stamina there's nothing to stop them from always being around & nothing to stop them from failing. Thus they succeeded as a build. It's not like they even have to care to worry about being good enough to realize & plainly see their opponent is wearing heavy armor. On top of the standard stam heals whats to stop them. They can worm around a zerg laying mines to assist. Inaddion to all else stam can do.

Fairly stated, it always sucks when a sorc roll dodges my fear after I brake their shields down... Wait.

Shieldbraker equivalent:

I'm not saying we need a counter to shieldbraker. I'm more or less suggesting to add something like a Roll braker. With a fifth trait that does something like "After an opponent successfully completes a roll dodge that evades one of your attacks Inflict them with Close call removing & preventing them from activating any evasive effects for 3s. Also disorienting them instead if they attempt to activate another roll dodge within the duration." Some thing that still allows them to block and brakefree but not roll dodge. Maybe even adding something like that to the amber bomb, but instead of a disorient its a guaranteed golden amber petrify.

To the point on cp, we might aswell take out shattering blows from the Atronach constellation & call it FLOM. We can't just keep changing those trees for minor percentage advantages, just scale the hard counters correctly so that their effective & you can choose to run them or not to the sacrifice of your usual playstyle.

- - - - - - - - - -

Edziu wrote: »

what a awesome explantation @Liofa

@hrothbern

all stamina builds without any cost reduction to rolldodge are very punished by spam rolldodge

and @Liofa very nice describet it...with more reduction to more spam rolldodge you have less burst

and shieldbreaker..well.....this set come only when shieldstack/spam was to op and zeni not thought about nerf these new meta with shields....this was the only counter agains shieldspam what was better with better damage then (more max magica=better shield=better damage with more max magica) and as for now...I dont see to much people now with this set

and rolldodging is the only the best defensive option because blocking damage without shield you can shove it to your ass, no regen, much stamina burn and not much damage mitigated

and shuffle from medium armor, 20% for dodge..what a problem you have to use it on your magica build? 20% dodge chance is able to all like this rolldodge. maybe you have with it same problem like with rolldodge spam monkey without enough burst to kill someone easily like "glasscannon"

To excuse the best of your stam defense, from my knowledge there is no incremental increase to block cost as there is to roll dodge. The only debuff for all players using it, is the few seconds in between shots you have to regen stamina. Beyond that, with that mentioned roll dodge debuff, it is a better negation for stam players to use then roll dodge against isolated bit of damage that may come from 1-2 isolated players. As a magic user I know its plainly more effective & as a stamina your vigor and armor advantage is you shield. With such a large pool its pathetic u can complain unless you mean to fight a zerg by yourself? Then you'll need to roll dodge so that absolutely no one can hit you with any meaning full damage. For both stam and magic users it should only take one or two roll dodges, most often to evade the pressure of the front line in a zerg v zerg situation.
Asking magica users to run evasion is a low sense of understanding for my stamina pool. If you ran harness ward or dampen in exchange for clocke would that increase your surviveability? In poping evasion once at the start of a match its literally surrendering your life to a 19s fear or other cc were ur free to get beat on. All magica bars mean less to all players then stamina. If your magica your not sprinting in a combat zone u take ur time or streak. Not to mention the redundancy in using that against quick hard damage melee. With so few sorcs out there nowadays we don't even fight each other on console. We hug, cry, & walk away.

KramUzibra · July 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

AOE. Steel nado, proxy det, batswarm, or pretty much any kind of aoe/ground dot..... .. And our most favourite RD. You want to complain about counter? Ask for whats the counter to penetration... There isnt... Even with full heavy you are going to be sitting at barely 10k resists against any proper specced DPS for PvP...... At least shields cant be crit so it saves you that trouble... As stam DPS wearing medium your only defense is dodge roll and doge. No shields, barely any better defense than light armour....... *** AOE short of bombard spamming monkey. There's a reason why 90% of group plays use mag DPS with barely 2 bombard spamming monkeys in their group. Cos stam sucks in open world AvA. Its just good when u kite around rocks and kill stupid potatoes who get split up and bursted down. Any group of competent players hitting you and you cant showcase your ridiculous 1 v x videos.....

This is not true at all ! The only magicka users that run around in pvp seem to be Templars and wing spamming Dks.
I see nothing but stam everywhere. Because Stamina is super mobile, highest damage possible and best sustain. There is no single reason to run Magicka nowadays besides being a Templar or disliking the physical weapon style. I only see Magicka pve fools inside the sewers. But their group can't even last 10 seconds. What can they do ? They must eat each hit. They can only heal and shield, but this does nothing to stop a decent player. 1 CC and it's over. Stamina on the other hand can completely avoid damage for a very long time.

Stamina shines in all aspects of the game, the only exception being a group healer. Despite Vigor being a mighty HoT, the range makes stam healers hard to play in groups

I disagree I see all types including hybrid builds on xbox na

Pinja · July 2016

KramUzibra wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

AOE. Steel nado, proxy det, batswarm, or pretty much any kind of aoe/ground dot..... .. And our most favourite RD. You want to complain about counter? Ask for whats the counter to penetration... There isnt... Even with full heavy you are going to be sitting at barely 10k resists against any proper specced DPS for PvP...... At least shields cant be crit so it saves you that trouble... As stam DPS wearing medium your only defense is dodge roll and doge. No shields, barely any better defense than light armour....... *** AOE short of bombard spamming monkey. There's a reason why 90% of group plays use mag DPS with barely 2 bombard spamming monkeys in their group. Cos stam sucks in open world AvA. Its just good when u kite around rocks and kill stupid potatoes who get split up and bursted down. Any group of competent players hitting you and you cant showcase your ridiculous 1 v x videos.....

This is not true at all ! The only magicka users that run around in pvp seem to be Templars and wing spamming Dks.
I see nothing but stam everywhere. Because Stamina is super mobile, highest damage possible and best sustain. There is no single reason to run Magicka nowadays besides being a Templar or disliking the physical weapon style. I only see Magicka pve fools inside the sewers. But their group can't even last 10 seconds. What can they do ? They must eat each hit. They can only heal and shield, but this does nothing to stop a decent player. 1 CC and it's over. Stamina on the other hand can completely avoid damage for a very long time.

Stamina shines in all aspects of the game, the only exception being a group healer. Despite Vigor being a mighty HoT, the range makes stam healers hard to play in groups

I disagree I see all types including hybrid builds on xbox na

That would only be if your talking about the 12% of the NA sever that plays on DC... & the nubs in Black water. All of AD is Stam Night blades & Templars, All EP is Stamplars & DKs laced with night blades, then you've got us barely holding onto Haderus because were trying to have fun with the game...

Dracane · July 2016

Pinja wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

AOE. Steel nado, proxy det, batswarm, or pretty much any kind of aoe/ground dot..... .. And our most favourite RD. You want to complain about counter? Ask for whats the counter to penetration... There isnt... Even with full heavy you are going to be sitting at barely 10k resists against any proper specced DPS for PvP...... At least shields cant be crit so it saves you that trouble... As stam DPS wearing medium your only defense is dodge roll and doge. No shields, barely any better defense than light armour....... *** AOE short of bombard spamming monkey. There's a reason why 90% of group plays use mag DPS with barely 2 bombard spamming monkeys in their group. Cos stam sucks in open world AvA. Its just good when u kite around rocks and kill stupid potatoes who get split up and bursted down. Any group of competent players hitting you and you cant showcase your ridiculous 1 v x videos.....

This is not true at all ! The only magicka users that run around in pvp seem to be Templars and wing spamming Dks.
I see nothing but stam everywhere. Because Stamina is super mobile, highest damage possible and best sustain. There is no single reason to run Magicka nowadays besides being a Templar or disliking the physical weapon style. I only see Magicka pve fools inside the sewers. But their group can't even last 10 seconds. What can they do ? They must eat each hit. They can only heal and shield, but this does nothing to stop a decent player. 1 CC and it's over. Stamina on the other hand can completely avoid damage for a very long time.

Stamina shines in all aspects of the game, the only exception being a group healer. Despite Vigor being a mighty HoT, the range makes stam healers hard to play in groups

I disagree I see all types including hybrid builds on xbox na

That would only be if your talking about the 12% of the NA sever that plays on DC... & the nubs in Black water. All of AD is Stam Night blades & Templars, All EP is Stamplars & DKs laced with night blades, then you've got us barely holding onto Haderus because were trying to have fun with the game...

Yep. When I see magicka people, then it's usually free AP running around.

But I can only speak for the PC version. Why would consoles be different ?
Well, I consider console ESO players unexperienced and backwarded.
It's probably not true, it's just my brain telling me that.

Just like my father, who always told us as kids that the german car brand BMW is bad and cheap. Nothing of that is true. But something you learn as a kid, is hard to get rid off.

Lord-Otto · July 2016

BMW most certainly is not bad and cheap!
\(>. <)/

I can attest that on XBone EU, almost all big mag sorcs have switched to other classes. I see suspiciously many templars on the leaderboards. Like, really many, 35%-45%. And as always, nightblades, nightblades, nightblades everywhere. I did, however, counted 8 mag sorcs in the top 100 last time I checked. EIGHT.

Yeah, cool balancing for sure! xD

Dodgeroll is way better in open AvA. A shield barely helps against one attacker. Dodging gets more valuable the more opponents are attacking you and it is better for re-positioning away from zergy situations. There is no valid reason for claiming stamina builds need an OP dodging mechanic to be viable on the field, it is simply not true.

I don't think we should spend CPs on countering dodgerollers. Some moves just shouldn't be evadable. NBs have Fear and Sap, templars have Jabs and Radiant. I think sorcs would do well with Fury being undodgeable and Force Shock also being unreflectable. Both with a bit of damage buff.

hrothbern · July 2016

Lord-Otto wrote: »

BMW most certainly is not bad and cheap!
\(>. <)/

When BMW was almost broke in the 50's, they got back on their feet again with this superfast car, with a motorbike engine

Lord-Otto · July 2016

hrothbern wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

BMW most certainly is not bad and cheap!
\(>. <)/

When BMW was almost broke in the 50's, they got back on their feet again with this superfast car, with a motorbike engine

Proof Bavarians are extremely creative. Possible cause being the Oktoberfest and large beer consumption? I think so!
(^___^)

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2016

hrothbern wrote: »

Against stacked Armor Resist, there is increasing Penetration
Against stacked Impen, there is increasing Crit Damage
Against stacked Healing, there are Defiles

So... where is the counter for Dodge ?

Where is the Blitz feature, that makes my attack go faster than a Dodge ?

Its called Aoe and RD.

Anti_Virus · August 2016

Where is the counter for shield stacking?

Maybe add major and minor negation reducing shield strength by 30% (major) and 10% (minor)

Lol im JK but seriously passive dodge is fine.

[Edit replaced passives with counter]

Cronopoly · August 2016

I'd like an "Accuracy" ability that raised the chance to hit someone > 8 meters (Basically the anti-christ to Shuffle)... It would be something that supports Range Only and does not affect Melee at all where the bread and butter is Extremely high in your face "Die right now" Burst. At least I'll be able to have a chance at landing one hit of a Ranged tickle Dot before my toons body flies through the air after getting Gap closed.

Barlthump · August 2016

hrothbern wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Hey . I must say before anything else that I didn't read everything that is written on this topic . Just letting you know .

This is going to be a wall of text but please read all before you start yelling .

Roll Dodge : This is a mechanic that is available to everyone . Either Magicka or Stamina . Stamina users can do it more of course but Magicka users have shields . Roll Dodge reduces the damage of an attack to 0 , yes , but magicka users have shields which is pretty reliable + completely absorbs 90% (maybe not those nasty incaps) of all the damaging abilities . And there are the roll dodges which you can still hit while your target is in mid-roll . For example , Dawnbreaker , one of the strongest Ultimates in this game . With the upcoming Amberplasm set , I don't think Magicka users will have any problems with Roll Dodging .

Dodge : Obtainable with mainly Shuffle . Again , with the new set , Amberplasm , we will see lots of Magicka users who use this (not mentioning mNB with Blur) . Absolutely agree that it is the most powerful defensive buff in the game for stamina AND magicka users . If it is usable by anyone , I don't see a problem with it . I don't even want to talk about the new Gossamer set . Damn zergs will now have Shuffle up pretty much all the time .

Roll Dodge Builds : I don't know if you fought a Monkey build but they hit much lesser than a proper fighter . They use Well-Fitted on all pieces , recovery enchants on jewelry and huge amount of points into Thumbling . They sacrifice lots of stuff to roll dodge that much . Those builds are pretty much nothing without kiting their opponent . Sometimes , we go IC with friends ( 3-4 man groups ) and we see lots of those . They just try to gank one of us and fail because of the lack of damage . As a tank build , I just hit them a few times and watch them roll dodge to the other side of map while spamming Vigor and getting in and out of buildings . It is funny to be honest .

RNG : Classic ESO . There is nothing we can do about that . Sometimes you just dodge 5 in a row , sometimes you just take 20 hits in a row without a single dodge . There is nothing more upsetting than a Magicka build dodging your stun right after you take his shields down .

Shield Breaker : I said pretty good stuff about shields . I can't leave that there while this set exists . Don't get me wrong . I am not going to say ''This set should be nerfed'' . No . This set is shield stackers most fearful nightmare and should continue to be so . This set is being used by maybe 5% (maybe less) of all the players . If you think you should be able to counter this set as a shield stacker , you ask for too much .

Solution : Even though I defended the existance of Dodge and Roll Dodge , I would like a new buff which reduces the chance of your attacks dodged or a new weapon trait maybe ?

EDIT : What I said in Solution part applies only to Evasion kind of dodge . Not to Roll Dodge .

Besides from a new buff or a new weapon trait , we can get rid of a useless CP and put a ''Reduces the chance of your attacks being dodged by %X'' kind of CP in blue tree (so people have to sacrifice damage to get more precise hits) maybe . That might be a better option actually .

Good summary @Liofa
And the solution you propose for passive Evasion dodging.... yes, something like that would work

Getting a counter to every category of Defense is fundamentally root balancing.
Getting a counter to every category of Offense is fundamentally root balancing.

Yeah let's make a counter to dodge! While at it a keep a buff to reduce shieldstacking strength as well. And reapplying shields should in turn cost more and more each time. Let's make ESO balanced by giving a counter to everything.

thankyourat · August 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Against stacked Armor Resist, there is increasing Penetration
Against stacked Impen, there is increasing Crit Damage
Against stacked Healing, there are Defiles

So... where is the counter for Dodge ?

Where is the Blitz feature, that makes my attack go faster than a Dodge ?

Its called Aoe and RD.

I don't know if aoe's are a counter to dodge roll

Barlthump wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Hey . I must say before anything else that I didn't read everything that is written on this topic . Just letting you know .

This is going to be a wall of text but please read all before you start yelling .

Roll Dodge : This is a mechanic that is available to everyone . Either Magicka or Stamina . Stamina users can do it more of course but Magicka users have shields . Roll Dodge reduces the damage of an attack to 0 , yes , but magicka users have shields which is pretty reliable + completely absorbs 90% (maybe not those nasty incaps) of all the damaging abilities . And there are the roll dodges which you can still hit while your target is in mid-roll . For example , Dawnbreaker , one of the strongest Ultimates in this game . With the upcoming Amberplasm set , I don't think Magicka users will have any problems with Roll Dodging .

Dodge : Obtainable with mainly Shuffle . Again , with the new set , Amberplasm , we will see lots of Magicka users who use this (not mentioning mNB with Blur) . Absolutely agree that it is the most powerful defensive buff in the game for stamina AND magicka users . If it is usable by anyone , I don't see a problem with it . I don't even want to talk about the new Gossamer set . Damn zergs will now have Shuffle up pretty much all the time .

Roll Dodge Builds : I don't know if you fought a Monkey build but they hit much lesser than a proper fighter . They use Well-Fitted on all pieces , recovery enchants on jewelry and huge amount of points into Thumbling . They sacrifice lots of stuff to roll dodge that much . Those builds are pretty much nothing without kiting their opponent . Sometimes , we go IC with friends ( 3-4 man groups ) and we see lots of those . They just try to gank one of us and fail because of the lack of damage . As a tank build , I just hit them a few times and watch them roll dodge to the other side of map while spamming Vigor and getting in and out of buildings . It is funny to be honest .

RNG : Classic ESO . There is nothing we can do about that . Sometimes you just dodge 5 in a row , sometimes you just take 20 hits in a row without a single dodge . There is nothing more upsetting than a Magicka build dodging your stun right after you take his shields down .

Shield Breaker : I said pretty good stuff about shields . I can't leave that there while this set exists . Don't get me wrong . I am not going to say ''This set should be nerfed'' . No . This set is shield stackers most fearful nightmare and should continue to be so . This set is being used by maybe 5% (maybe less) of all the players . If you think you should be able to counter this set as a shield stacker , you ask for too much .

Solution : Even though I defended the existance of Dodge and Roll Dodge , I would like a new buff which reduces the chance of your attacks dodged or a new weapon trait maybe ?

EDIT : What I said in Solution part applies only to Evasion kind of dodge . Not to Roll Dodge .

Besides from a new buff or a new weapon trait , we can get rid of a useless CP and put a ''Reduces the chance of your attacks being dodged by %X'' kind of CP in blue tree (so people have to sacrifice damage to get more precise hits) maybe . That might be a better option actually .

Good summary @Liofa
And the solution you propose for passive Evasion dodging.... yes, something like that would work

Getting a counter to every category of Defense is fundamentally root balancing.
Getting a counter to every category of Offense is fundamentally root balancing.

Yeah let's make a counter to dodge! While at it a keep a buff to reduce shieldstacking strength as well. And reapplying shields should in turn cost more and more each time. Let's make ESO balanced by giving a counter to everything.

Lol there's already multiple counters to shields

Vythri · August 2016

How about a bow users counter to projectile reflecting? 100% counter, and nothing you can do about it other than be melee.

syko809 · August 2016

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Dawnbreaker. Fear. Sap essence. Curse. Streak. JESUS BEAM. Meteor. Soul assault. Jabs. PRESSURE. If they keep dodging, they won't have much gas to hit you. Idk. Even when I played my magic sorcerer, BEFORE they added the increase cost to dodge rolling, I still never saw an issue with dodge rollers.

And neither will you have enough gas to hit them

Barlthump · August 2016

thankyourat wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Against stacked Armor Resist, there is increasing Penetration
Against stacked Impen, there is increasing Crit Damage
Against stacked Healing, there are Defiles

So... where is the counter for Dodge ?

Where is the Blitz feature, that makes my attack go faster than a Dodge ?

Its called Aoe and RD.

I don't know if aoe's are a counter to dodge roll

Barlthump wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Hey . I must say before anything else that I didn't read everything that is written on this topic . Just letting you know .

This is going to be a wall of text but please read all before you start yelling .

Roll Dodge : This is a mechanic that is available to everyone . Either Magicka or Stamina . Stamina users can do it more of course but Magicka users have shields . Roll Dodge reduces the damage of an attack to 0 , yes , but magicka users have shields which is pretty reliable + completely absorbs 90% (maybe not those nasty incaps) of all the damaging abilities . And there are the roll dodges which you can still hit while your target is in mid-roll . For example , Dawnbreaker , one of the strongest Ultimates in this game . With the upcoming Amberplasm set , I don't think Magicka users will have any problems with Roll Dodging .

Dodge : Obtainable with mainly Shuffle . Again , with the new set , Amberplasm , we will see lots of Magicka users who use this (not mentioning mNB with Blur) . Absolutely agree that it is the most powerful defensive buff in the game for stamina AND magicka users . If it is usable by anyone , I don't see a problem with it . I don't even want to talk about the new Gossamer set . Damn zergs will now have Shuffle up pretty much all the time .

Roll Dodge Builds : I don't know if you fought a Monkey build but they hit much lesser than a proper fighter . They use Well-Fitted on all pieces , recovery enchants on jewelry and huge amount of points into Thumbling . They sacrifice lots of stuff to roll dodge that much . Those builds are pretty much nothing without kiting their opponent . Sometimes , we go IC with friends ( 3-4 man groups ) and we see lots of those . They just try to gank one of us and fail because of the lack of damage . As a tank build , I just hit them a few times and watch them roll dodge to the other side of map while spamming Vigor and getting in and out of buildings . It is funny to be honest .

RNG : Classic ESO . There is nothing we can do about that . Sometimes you just dodge 5 in a row , sometimes you just take 20 hits in a row without a single dodge . There is nothing more upsetting than a Magicka build dodging your stun right after you take his shields down .

Shield Breaker : I said pretty good stuff about shields . I can't leave that there while this set exists . Don't get me wrong . I am not going to say ''This set should be nerfed'' . No . This set is shield stackers most fearful nightmare and should continue to be so . This set is being used by maybe 5% (maybe less) of all the players . If you think you should be able to counter this set as a shield stacker , you ask for too much .

Solution : Even though I defended the existance of Dodge and Roll Dodge , I would like a new buff which reduces the chance of your attacks dodged or a new weapon trait maybe ?

EDIT : What I said in Solution part applies only to Evasion kind of dodge . Not to Roll Dodge .

Besides from a new buff or a new weapon trait , we can get rid of a useless CP and put a ''Reduces the chance of your attacks being dodged by %X'' kind of CP in blue tree (so people have to sacrifice damage to get more precise hits) maybe . That might be a better option actually .

Good summary @Liofa
And the solution you propose for passive Evasion dodging.... yes, something like that would work

Getting a counter to every category of Defense is fundamentally root balancing.
Getting a counter to every category of Offense is fundamentally root balancing.

Yeah let's make a counter to dodge! While at it a keep a buff to reduce shieldstacking strength as well. And reapplying shields should in turn cost more and more each time. Let's make ESO balanced by giving a counter to everything.

Lol there's already multiple counters to shields

Counters to shield? What are they? Shieldbreaker set? CP tree? Okay then let's make a set that counters dodging and add CP for dodge counter. Cause anyone using a 5 pc shieldbreaker set isn't gonna be doing much damage normally. So it should be fair that instead magicka users get a set to counter dodge, no way they deserve to wear julianos or some other 5 pc worthwhile set