Game balancing: where is the counter to passive Dodging ?

hrothbern

Against stacked Armor Resist, there is increasing Penetration
Against stacked Impen, there is increasing Crit Damage
Against stacked Healing, there are Defiles

So... where is the counter for Dodge ?

Where is the Blitz feature, that makes my attack go faster than a Dodge ?

Dracane

Excuse me, Hrothbern of Bleackrock:
How can you ask for a counterplay to dodge roll and passive dodge chance ?
Don't you know, that stamina must remain the flavor of the year and above everything else ?

Asking for a valid counter is like asking for..... balance.

GreenSoup2HoT

Dawnbreaker is undodgeable (yes you can move out of the way but if your hit by it is it undodgeable). Meteor is undodgeable (all though easily block-able). Mass Hysteria is undodgeable. Far as im aware, all magicka based AoE's are undodgeable also. Radiant Destruction is undodgeable. Puncturing Sweeps i believe is undodgeable. There is a lot of stuff undodgeable.

Waiting out the 0.7 second dodge animation while someone has proc'd shuffle or used roll dodge is a good idea instead of casting like a bone head wasting resources. Good idea to heal or reapply buffs when this is happening. Playing smart and queuing up abilitys so you can land them after the dodge animation has ended is also a good idea (with Uppercut or heavy attack).

DannyLV702

Dawnbreaker. Fear. Sap essence. Curse. Streak. JESUS BEAM. Meteor. Soul assault. Jabs. PRESSURE. If they keep dodging, they won't have much gas to hit you. Idk. Even when I played my magic sorcerer, BEFORE they added the increase cost to dodge rolling, I still never saw an issue with dodge rollers.

susmitds

Unlike Armor Resist, Impen etc, Dodge is an active defense mechanic and spamming it will finish your stamina pool pretty fast unless of course you are full well-fitted, 100 tumbling and 7 pc Medium like me.

RoyalSlyness

Timing and pressure.

Dracane

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Dawnbreaker is undodgeable (yes you can move out of the way but if your hit by it is it undodgeable). Meteor is undodgeable (all though easily block-able). Mass Hysteria is undodgeable. Far as im aware, all magicka based AoE's are undodgeable also. Radiant Destruction is undodgeable. Puncturing Sweeps i believe is undodgeable. There is a lot of stuff undodgeable.

Waiting out the 0.7 second dodge animation while someone has proc'd shuffle or used roll dodge is a good idea instead of casting like a bone head wasting resources. Good idea to heal or reapply buffs when this is happening. Playing smart and queuing up abilitys so you can land them after the dodge animation has ended is also a good idea (with Uppercut or heavy attack).

How is that a counter ?
Armor stackers can be hit by all of these things.
Heal stackers can be hit by all of these things
Stacked impen etc etc etc (everything that OP mentioned)

So this is not a counter to dodge roll in particular.
We want something that punishes roll dodge spam/exploit or a REAL counter play.
For example, that you suffer significatnly more damage from all channeled abilities while dodging.
But this is not going to satisfy anyone besides me I guess.

Drdeath20

Couldn't you just heavy attack with a staff?

Dracane

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Couldn't you just heavy attack with a staff?

Only the lightning and restoration heavy attacks can do that and their damage is really laughable and not worth mentioning.

hrothbern

ahhh
Reading the posts I see I should have been more clear !
Thanks @Dracane for making the distinction between the active Dodge Roll and the passive Dodge chance.

Active Dodge rolling is imo a great asset for the game.
As such it invites for active and diverse gameplay
If it is perfectly balanced ?
IDK.
There are costs, you get all your recoveries, perhaps even some additional Ultimates and you cannot do much damage during that time.

What I tried to put forward was: "how is passive Dodging countered ?"
You push the button of Evasion or Blur.... and you get your 20%.

So... a Minor Blitz could reduce that 20% with 10% and a Major Blitz could reduce it with 20% to zero.

hrothbern

Dracane wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Dawnbreaker is undodgeable (yes you can move out of the way but if your hit by it is it undodgeable). Meteor is undodgeable (all though easily block-able). Mass Hysteria is undodgeable. Far as im aware, all magicka based AoE's are undodgeable also. Radiant Destruction is undodgeable. Puncturing Sweeps i believe is undodgeable. There is a lot of stuff undodgeable.

Waiting out the 0.7 second dodge animation while someone has proc'd shuffle or used roll dodge is a good idea instead of casting like a bone head wasting resources. Good idea to heal or reapply buffs when this is happening. Playing smart and queuing up abilitys so you can land them after the dodge animation has ended is also a good idea (with Uppercut or heavy attack).

How is that a counter ?
Armor stackers can be hit by all of these things.
Heal stackers can be hit by all of these things
Stacked impen etc etc etc (everything that OP mentioned)

So this is not a counter to dodge roll in particular.
We want something that punishes roll dodge spam/exploit or a REAL counter play.
For example, that you suffer significatnly more damage from all channeled abilities while dodging.
But this is not going to satisfy anyone besides me I guess.

agree
and Sorcs are hit hard by all the dodging.

I think you could see a Dodge roll as buying some time where in you are getting much less damage.
So why is it not balanced cost wise by getting during that same time much less recoveries ?

Dracane

hrothbern wrote: »

ahhh
Reading the posts I see I should have been more clear !
Thanks @Dracane for making the distinction between the active Dodge Roll and the passive Dodge chance.

Active Dodge rolling is imo a great asset for the game.
As such it invites for active and diverse gameplay
If it is perfectly balanced ?
IDK.
There are costs, you get all your recoveries, perhaps even some additional Ultimates and you cannot do much damage during that time.

What I tried to put forward was: "how is passive Dodging countered ?"
You push the button of Evasion or Blur.... and you get your 20%.

So... a Minor Blitz could reduce that 20% with 10% and a Major Blitz could reduce it with 20% to zero.

Stamina fanboys will say "RNG counters evasion"

hrothbern wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Dawnbreaker is undodgeable (yes you can move out of the way but if your hit by it is it undodgeable). Meteor is undodgeable (all though easily block-able). Mass Hysteria is undodgeable. Far as im aware, all magicka based AoE's are undodgeable also. Radiant Destruction is undodgeable. Puncturing Sweeps i believe is undodgeable. There is a lot of stuff undodgeable.

Waiting out the 0.7 second dodge animation while someone has proc'd shuffle or used roll dodge is a good idea instead of casting like a bone head wasting resources. Good idea to heal or reapply buffs when this is happening. Playing smart and queuing up abilitys so you can land them after the dodge animation has ended is also a good idea (with Uppercut or heavy attack).

How is that a counter ?
Armor stackers can be hit by all of these things.
Heal stackers can be hit by all of these things
Stacked impen etc etc etc (everything that OP mentioned)

So this is not a counter to dodge roll in particular.
We want something that punishes roll dodge spam/exploit or a REAL counter play.
For example, that you suffer significatnly more damage from all channeled abilities while dodging.
But this is not going to satisfy anyone besides me I guess.

agree
and Sorcs are hit hard by all the dodging.

I think you could see a Dodge roll as buying some time where in you are getting much less damage.
So why is it not balanced cost wise by getting during that same time much less recoveries ?

I'm sorry to say this. The only solution in my opinion, is to give active roll dodges a cooldown of 1s.
You dodge and can't dodge again for 1 second to prevent this exploiting and to give classes like Sorcerer at least a liddle liddle chance to do something against stamina classes. Won't help much, but maybe enough for good players to see some light at the end of the tunnel.

ScruffyWhiskers

Hey maybe we could make concealed weapon hit through dodge again? <dodges for cover>

Dracane

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

Hey maybe we could make concealed weapon hit through dodge again? <dodges for cover>

No !

Qbiken

Just waiting for this thread to turn into an a "Make Radiant destruction dodgeable" XD

Pinja

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Dawnbreaker is undodgeable (yes you can move out of the way but if your hit by it is it undodgeable). Meteor is undodgeable (all though easily block-able). Mass Hysteria is undodgeable. Far as im aware, all magicka based AoE's are undodgeable also. Radiant Destruction is undodgeable. Puncturing Sweeps i believe is undodgeable. There is a lot of stuff undodgeable.

Waiting out the 0.7 second dodge animation while someone has proc'd shuffle or used roll dodge is a good idea instead of casting like a bone head wasting resources. Good idea to heal or reapply buffs when this is happening. Playing smart and queuing up abilitys so you can land them after the dodge animation has ended is also a good idea (with Uppercut or heavy attack).

Glad I made it here, now brake this down.
How do you brake radiant or similar channel moves? Get behind something or interrupt the caster to induce cc. Whats the easiest way to get behind something or change position: roll dodge.
Whats the easiest way to go out of range of puncturing sweeps? roll dodge. (way back when b4 I had streak or shields its all I could do.)
What is the Easiest way to get out of an AoE? ...role dodge. Like let me dump my mana or stam pool to hit you in single tics of AoE...
To be fair with trapping webs gone I personally run daedric tomb like a boss but its only such an effective skill shot that's unavailable to hit in certain terrain conditions. On top of that it's unavailable for a lot of sorc playstyles (& other classes) seeming how half the community doesn't know it exist.
& back to the point at hand how do you escape from the root. Roll dodge.

When the counter to the counter is itself, it's not a counter.

Not to mention if you can rely on an effective projectile that you can spam within .7s you might as well keep spamming it because my pixie stick inferno light attacks are not going to do much to you either way, hit or miss. The impotent thing was the first crystal frag proc or entropy procked dark flare that just whizzed by you. Not to mention telling me to take this 'opportunity' to debunk myself from that causal bit of Stendarr's grace isn't really much of an "opportunity" its not like that dodge's animation cc's you. In actuality its a free animation cancel so I can get gap closed & bashed for charging a frag if I chose to stay on the offensive. Not to mention as a sorcerer the time of the initial buff & attack on top of the failed cast time & disorient means my 6's are up if not close to... & we all no what that means.
As the game is right now there's no player induced deterrent to stop people from roll dodging endlessly.

Drdeath20

Dracane wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Couldn't you just heavy attack with a staff?

Only the lightning and restoration heavy attacks can do that and their damage is really laughable and not worth mentioning.

Wait I have 0 CP's invested in staff expert and my heavy staff attacks are around 3k. That's not bad.

Dracane

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Couldn't you just heavy attack with a staff?

Only the lightning and restoration heavy attacks can do that and their damage is really laughable and not worth mentioning.

Wait I have 0 CP's invested in staff expert and my heavy staff attacks are around 3k. That's not bad.

Yes, that's very bad. And investing points into staff expert is not a great idea.
Because the base damage of staff attacks is so damn low, that this increase is barely noticeable and not worth the points you waste on it. Staff base damage is the lowest of all weapons.

Pinja

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

Hey maybe we could make concealed weapon hit through dodge again? <dodges for cover>

If your running a potion of precision why not, that way everyone could spam whatever move they want at a roll dodgers. Forcing people to stand there ground & block again to retaliate with the champ point passives. Its not like blocking isn't a more stamina conserving alternative, its just that role dodge is a lot cheesier & more effective especially with all the sets. It's why Wood Elves Love doing it.

PainfulFAFA

Channel abilities like lightning staff heavy atts and jeaus beam are undodgeable.

Meteor is undodgeable, you HAVE to block it. Dawnbreaker is also a good way to shut that down aswell

Snares/immobilizes are also counters but the biggest counter i can think off is lots of pressure on him... Eventually he will run out of stam, CC him, and ult him

Pinja

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Couldn't you just heavy attack with a staff?

Only the lightning and restoration heavy attacks can do that and their damage is really laughable and not worth mentioning.

Wait I have 0 CP's invested in staff expert and my heavy staff attacks are around 3k. That's not bad.

Congratulations, you just wasted a 3s channel to do 1-2k short of a persons green food & you did't even proc a frag. No offence to you but no... Its not a counter. +They healed up half of that while you were casting, if its a lighting or resto.

Edziu

hrothbern wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Dawnbreaker is undodgeable (yes you can move out of the way but if your hit by it is it undodgeable). Meteor is undodgeable (all though easily block-able). Mass Hysteria is undodgeable. Far as im aware, all magicka based AoE's are undodgeable also. Radiant Destruction is undodgeable. Puncturing Sweeps i believe is undodgeable. There is a lot of stuff undodgeable.

Waiting out the 0.7 second dodge animation while someone has proc'd shuffle or used roll dodge is a good idea instead of casting like a bone head wasting resources. Good idea to heal or reapply buffs when this is happening. Playing smart and queuing up abilitys so you can land them after the dodge animation has ended is also a good idea (with Uppercut or heavy attack).

How is that a counter ?
Armor stackers can be hit by all of these things.
Heal stackers can be hit by all of these things
Stacked impen etc etc etc (everything that OP mentioned)

So this is not a counter to dodge roll in particular.
We want something that punishes roll dodge spam/exploit or a REAL counter play.
For example, that you suffer significatnly more damage from all channeled abilities while dodging.
But this is not going to satisfy anyone besides me I guess.

agree
and Sorcs are hit hard by all the dodging.

I think you could see a Dodge roll as buying some time where in you are getting much less damage.
So why is it not balanced cost wise by getting during that same time much less recoveries ?

if you cant see all next rolldodge in next 4 seconds are hmm if I good remember 30% more costly...next next rolldodge is with raised cost so with 100% in cp to reduce cost plus all wellfitted on gold you will finally burn your all stamina like spam streak.

we cannont spam rolldoge to *** die after IC DLC.

this is main def skill for stamina builds and cant be spamment like shieldstackt, heal etc.

op what is with it is just sick sustain what is comming to most builds on pvp......

as you want also to less recovery while rolldodge so then maybe you will have less recovery while damage shield is up or anything other defensive on mage build.

all stamina builds without any cost reduction to rolldodge are very punished by spam rolldodge

Pinja

Edziu wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Dawnbreaker is undodgeable (yes you can move out of the way but if your hit by it is it undodgeable). Meteor is undodgeable (all though easily block-able). Mass Hysteria is undodgeable. Far as im aware, all magicka based AoE's are undodgeable also. Radiant Destruction is undodgeable. Puncturing Sweeps i believe is undodgeable. There is a lot of stuff undodgeable.

Waiting out the 0.7 second dodge animation while someone has proc'd shuffle or used roll dodge is a good idea instead of casting like a bone head wasting resources. Good idea to heal or reapply buffs when this is happening. Playing smart and queuing up abilitys so you can land them after the dodge animation has ended is also a good idea (with Uppercut or heavy attack).

How is that a counter ?
Armor stackers can be hit by all of these things.
Heal stackers can be hit by all of these things
Stacked impen etc etc etc (everything that OP mentioned)

So this is not a counter to dodge roll in particular.
We want something that punishes roll dodge spam/exploit or a REAL counter play.
For example, that you suffer significatnly more damage from all channeled abilities while dodging.
But this is not going to satisfy anyone besides me I guess.

agree
and Sorcs are hit hard by all the dodging.

I think you could see a Dodge roll as buying some time where in you are getting much less damage.
So why is it not balanced cost wise by getting during that same time much less recoveries ?

if you cant see all next rolldodge in next 4 seconds are hmm if I good remember 30% more costly...next next rolldodge is with raised cost so with 100% in cp to reduce cost plus all wellfitted on gold you will finally burn your all stamina like spam streak.

we cannont spam rolldoge to *** die after IC DLC.

this is main def skill for stamina builds and cant be spamment like shieldstackt, heal etc.

op what is with it is just sick sustain what is comming to most builds on pvp......

as you want also to less recovery while rolldodge so then maybe you will have less recovery while damage shield is up or anything other defensive on mage build.

all stamina builds without any cost reduction to rolldodge are very punished by spam rolldodge

Difference between Shields & roll dodge. When you roll dodge your immune to every thing in the game that's not placed on the ground or on your character. When you stack shields, your immune to crit & that's it.
If I can spot ancestral silk on the ground without keen eye, you can spot a giant glowing AoE on the ground. Notable also the loud sounds & ring around your feet when someone drops meteor. If you to much of a compulsive roll dodger to not block before it hits thats on you.
& What all stam tanks do is roll dodge heavy hitting bosses?? Stamina has two forms of negation one with a champ point to counter & I think one set the other nothing. Just because roll dodging is abused that doesn't make it pivotal & not nearly as much as shield to a sorcerer. What a sorc to do when he runs into a shieldbraker, resto heal when healing wards the only resto move on their bar?
If there's a counter for us may their be one for you.

hrothbern

Edziu wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Dawnbreaker is undodgeable (yes you can move out of the way but if your hit by it is it undodgeable). Meteor is undodgeable (all though easily block-able). Mass Hysteria is undodgeable. Far as im aware, all magicka based AoE's are undodgeable also. Radiant Destruction is undodgeable. Puncturing Sweeps i believe is undodgeable. There is a lot of stuff undodgeable.

Waiting out the 0.7 second dodge animation while someone has proc'd shuffle or used roll dodge is a good idea instead of casting like a bone head wasting resources. Good idea to heal or reapply buffs when this is happening. Playing smart and queuing up abilitys so you can land them after the dodge animation has ended is also a good idea (with Uppercut or heavy attack).

How is that a counter ?
Armor stackers can be hit by all of these things.
Heal stackers can be hit by all of these things
Stacked impen etc etc etc (everything that OP mentioned)

So this is not a counter to dodge roll in particular.
We want something that punishes roll dodge spam/exploit or a REAL counter play.
For example, that you suffer significatnly more damage from all channeled abilities while dodging.
But this is not going to satisfy anyone besides me I guess.

agree
and Sorcs are hit hard by all the dodging.

I think you could see a Dodge roll as buying some time where in you are getting much less damage.
So why is it not balanced cost wise by getting during that same time much less recoveries ?

if you cant see all next rolldodge in next 4 seconds are hmm if I good remember 30% more costly...next next rolldodge is with raised cost so with 100% in cp to reduce cost plus all wellfitted on gold you will finally burn your all stamina like spam streak.

we cannont spam rolldoge to *** die after IC DLC.

this is main def skill for stamina builds and cant be spamment like shieldstackt, heal etc.

op what is with it is just sick sustain what is comming to most builds on pvp......

as you want also to less recovery while rolldodge so then maybe you will have less recovery while damage shield is up or anything other defensive on mage build.

all stamina builds without any cost reduction to rolldodge are very punished by spam rolldodge

Atlethics gives 4% per MA piece => 20-28% cost saving, without any effort: it is a passive.
Putting only 39 CP in Tumbling gives 10% cost saving (besides the 10% on Break Free)

and what I forgot:
If you do not invest that much in your Defense by roll dodge, I assume you have a decent amount in the Stamina pool and Weapon Damage and Weapon Crit...... => that will give you a nice Vigor tick every second.
So while you are in roll dodge status, your are still getting healed !!!
and during 2-3 roll dodges and 2-3 Vigor ticks well above execute level AND 14-21 meter away.

I really see active roll dodging as a great feature of our game, but I really do not know if the current penalty is balanced.

And back to my own original reason of the post:
Is a 20+ second duration of 20% dodge chance, by a simple one button hit on the back bar, balanced if there is no counter ?

Liofa

Hey . I must say before anything else that I didn't read everything that is written on this topic . Just letting you know .

This is going to be a wall of text but please read all before you start yelling .

Roll Dodge : This is a mechanic that is available to everyone . Either Magicka or Stamina . Stamina users can do it more of course but Magicka users have shields . Roll Dodge reduces the damage of an attack to 0 , yes , but magicka users have shields which is pretty reliable + completely absorbs 90% (maybe not those nasty incaps) of all the damaging abilities . And there are the roll dodges which you can still hit while your target is in mid-roll . For example , Dawnbreaker , one of the strongest Ultimates in this game . With the upcoming Amberplasm set , I don't think Magicka users will have any problems with Roll Dodging .

Dodge : Obtainable with mainly Shuffle . Again , with the new set , Amberplasm , we will see lots of Magicka users who use this (not mentioning mNB with Blur) . Absolutely agree that it is the most powerful defensive buff in the game for stamina AND magicka users . If it is usable by anyone , I don't see a problem with it . I don't even want to talk about the new Gossamer set . Damn zergs will now have Shuffle up pretty much all the time .

Roll Dodge Builds : I don't know if you fought a Monkey build but they hit much lesser than a proper fighter . They use Well-Fitted on all pieces , recovery enchants on jewelry and huge amount of points into Thumbling . They sacrifice lots of stuff to roll dodge that much . Those builds are pretty much nothing without kiting their opponent . Sometimes , we go IC with friends ( 3-4 man groups ) and we see lots of those . They just try to gank one of us and fail because of the lack of damage . As a tank build , I just hit them a few times and watch them roll dodge to the other side of map while spamming Vigor and getting in and out of buildings . It is funny to be honest .

RNG : Classic ESO . There is nothing we can do about that . Sometimes you just dodge 5 in a row , sometimes you just take 20 hits in a row without a single dodge . There is nothing more upsetting than a Magicka build dodging your stun right after you take his shields down .

Shield Breaker : I said pretty good stuff about shields . I can't leave that there while this set exists . Don't get me wrong . I am not going to say ''This set should be nerfed'' . No . This set is shield stackers most fearful nightmare and should continue to be so . This set is being used by maybe 5% (maybe less) of all the players . If you think you should be able to counter this set as a shield stacker , you ask for too much .

Solution : Even though I defended the existance of Dodge and Roll Dodge , I would like a new buff which reduces the chance of your attacks dodged or a new weapon trait maybe ?

EDIT : What I said in Solution part applies only to Evasion kind of dodge . Not to Roll Dodge .

Besides from a new buff or a new weapon trait , we can get rid of a useless CP and put a ''Reduces the chance of your attacks being dodged by %X'' kind of CP in blue tree (so people have to sacrifice damage to get more precise hits) maybe . That might be a better option actually .

Edziu

what a awesome explantation @Liofa

@hrothbern

all stamina builds without any cost reduction to rolldodge are very punished by spam rolldodge

and @Liofa very nice describet it...with more reduction to more spam rolldodge you have less burst

and shieldbreaker..well.....this set come only when shieldstack/spam was to op and zeni not thought about nerf these new meta with shields....this was the only counter agains shieldspam what was better with better damage then (more max magica=better shield=better damage with more max magica) and as for now...I dont see to much people now with this set

and rolldodging is the only the best defensive option because blocking damage without shield you can shove it to your ass, no regen, much stamina burn and not much damage mitigated

and shuffle from medium armor, 20% for dodge..what a problem you have to use it on your magica build? 20% dodge chance is able to all like this rolldodge. maybe you have with it same problem like with rolldodge spam monkey without enough burst to kill someone easily like "glasscannon"

Forestd16b14_ESO

Sorry but few problems here....

Resistance and penetration are not balanced penetration is way to powerful appose to resistance needing 33K (which you have to invest alot into) just to get to the hard cap of 50% mitigation which as I said penetration is way to powerful that can easily knock that all they way down to 10K resistance which is in between MA and LA resistance normally is.

Impen yea doesn't matter how much crit chance and crit damage you have if you get to 3300 you negate ALL crit damage (or so I am lead to believe from crit threads I read).

Yes defile counters healing but you only get the 2 major defile and minor defile while their is major and minor vit and mending. So kinda alot more healing buffs than healing debuffs but meh.

Now for dodging it self well it's often compare to magicka users defense damage shields and well unlike damage shields dodging cost more with each use withing 4 seconds and spamming it can drain stamina pretty fast cause the fatigue as it's called stacks so 22% to 44% to 66% and so on.

So sorry but please stop with these nerf stamina threads already.

hrothbern

Liofa wrote: »

Hey . I must say before anything else that I didn't read everything that is written on this topic . Just letting you know .

This is going to be a wall of text but please read all before you start yelling .

Roll Dodge : This is a mechanic that is available to everyone . Either Magicka or Stamina . Stamina users can do it more of course but Magicka users have shields . Roll Dodge reduces the damage of an attack to 0 , yes , but magicka users have shields which is pretty reliable + completely absorbs 90% (maybe not those nasty incaps) of all the damaging abilities . And there are the roll dodges which you can still hit while your target is in mid-roll . For example , Dawnbreaker , one of the strongest Ultimates in this game . With the upcoming Amberplasm set , I don't think Magicka users will have any problems with Roll Dodging .

Dodge : Obtainable with mainly Shuffle . Again , with the new set , Amberplasm , we will see lots of Magicka users who use this (not mentioning mNB with Blur) . Absolutely agree that it is the most powerful defensive buff in the game for stamina AND magicka users . If it is usable by anyone , I don't see a problem with it . I don't even want to talk about the new Gossamer set . Damn zergs will now have Shuffle up pretty much all the time .

Roll Dodge Builds : I don't know if you fought a Monkey build but they hit much lesser than a proper fighter . They use Well-Fitted on all pieces , recovery enchants on jewelry and huge amount of points into Thumbling . They sacrifice lots of stuff to roll dodge that much . Those builds are pretty much nothing without kiting their opponent . Sometimes , we go IC with friends ( 3-4 man groups ) and we see lots of those . They just try to gank one of us and fail because of the lack of damage . As a tank build , I just hit them a few times and watch them roll dodge to the other side of map while spamming Vigor and getting in and out of buildings . It is funny to be honest .

RNG : Classic ESO . There is nothing we can do about that . Sometimes you just dodge 5 in a row , sometimes you just take 20 hits in a row without a single dodge . There is nothing more upsetting than a Magicka build dodging your stun right after you take his shields down .

Shield Breaker : I said pretty good stuff about shields . I can't leave that there while this set exists . Don't get me wrong . I am not going to say ''This set should be nerfed'' . No . This set is shield stackers most fearful nightmare and should continue to be so . This set is being used by maybe 5% (maybe less) of all the players . If you think you should be able to counter this set as a shield stacker , you ask for too much .

Solution : Even though I defended the existance of Dodge and Roll Dodge , I would like a new buff which reduces the chance of your attacks dodged or a new weapon trait maybe ?

EDIT : What I said in Solution part applies only to Evasion kind of dodge . Not to Roll Dodge .

Besides from a new buff or a new weapon trait , we can get rid of a useless CP and put a ''Reduces the chance of your attacks being dodged by %X'' kind of CP in blue tree (so people have to sacrifice damage to get more precise hits) maybe . That might be a better option actually .

Good summary @Liofa
And the solution you propose for passive Evasion dodging.... yes, something like that would work

Getting a counter to every category of Defense is fundamentally root balancing.
Getting a counter to every category of Offense is fundamentally root balancing.

hrothbern

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Sorry but few problems here....

Resistance and penetration are not balanced penetration is way to powerful appose to resistance needing 33K (which you have to invest alot into) just to get to the hard cap of 50% mitigation which as I said penetration is way to powerful that can easily knock that all they way down to 10K resistance which is in between MA and LA resistance normally is.

Impen yea doesn't matter how much crit chance and crit damage you have if you get to 3300 you negate ALL crit damage (or so I am lead to believe from crit threads I read).

Yes defile counters healing but you only get the 2 major defile and minor defile while their is major and minor vit and mending. So kinda alot more healing buffs than healing debuffs but meh.

Now for dodging it self well it's often compare to magicka users defense damage shields and well unlike damage shields dodging cost more with each use withing 4 seconds and spamming it can drain stamina pretty fast cause the fatigue as it's called stacks so 22% to 44% to 66% and so on.

So sorry but please stop with these nerf stamina threads already.

@Forestd16b14_ESO ,

Having played a HA Tank for two years, I feel where you are coming from.
I think targetting for that 33k Armor Resist with HA, for that 50% mitigation, is something for PVE.

The vanilla base Armor Resist for HA is 17.5k.
And unless you add the 1935 Spell or Physical Resists per piece of Tanking sets, or really "special" Armor Resists like from Blood Spawn, Lord Warden, Pariah, Armor Master, Meritorious, etc that 17.5k is what you will end up with when your enemy counters all your "normal" Armor Resist increases with "normal" penetrations.
However, your opponents will likely have some special penetrations as passive and you end up with even less than 17.5k.

Choosing HA gives you in PVP only 2%-10% more mitigation than your opponent in LA/MA.
Worst case is fighting as Magicka Heavy Armor a Magicka Light Armor player with a Destro, where you have only 2% more mitigation because your Resist is only 1.25k better:
The LA vanilla Spell Resist is 10k and your HA vanilla Spell Resist is 11.25k (17.5 minus the 5k penetration of the LA passive Concentration is 12.5k minus 10% of the Destro passive on that 12.5k is 11.25k Spell Resist).

In the bigger picture of HA regarding mitigation you should count imo the 8% more Healing Taken combined with the minimal 10% more Health as roughly 8% more mitigation.
BUT that 10-18% "overall" more mitigation than LA/MA is still not much.
Especially compared to the "just hit one button Evasion" every 20 seconds to get not only almost 20% more mitigation, but also almost 20% less CC's !!!
So on that HA topic I would favor 2.5k more Armor Resist + a better benefit from Immovable per piece of HA.
But I would also first wait how the new frequency rates are in 2-3 month from now between LA, MA and HA after the HA changes of DB and the Stamina changes of DB and Hist. In principle every kind of Armor should imo be so desirable and viable, that all Armor types have a frequency rate of between 20% and 40%.

But back on topic of this thread:
ALL normal stacking of Armor Resist by Major Ward/Resolve, Defensive trait, CP's are countered by opposite effects of the same magnitude.
THAT is root balancing.
And there is no likewise root balancing counter for the Evasion button.
That was the major point of my thread.
Cold blooded analysing based on facts and math is my trademark (I think)
So, @Forestd16b14_ESO , if you say: "So sorry but please stop with these nerf stamina threads already"".
I feel not spoken to

hrothbern

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Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Sorry but few problems here....

Impen yea doesn't matter how much crit chance and crit damage you have if you get to 3300 you negate ALL crit damage (or so I am lead to believe from crit threads I read).

The 3300 Crit Resist will counter the base value 50% Critical Strike Damage to approx zero.

But you can incease your Critical Strike Damage above that 50%, for example with the mundus stone The Shadow.
And every 1% added is approx 1% more damage against a 3300 Crit Resist player when you crit.
(BTW against a zero Crit Resist player, every 1% added would only do approx 0.6% more damage when you crit. There are diminishing returns when the difference between Critical Strike Damage and Critical Resist become substantial)
To counter for example the mundus stone The Shadow you would need roughly 3 more pieces with impen

SleepyTroll

RD why do you think they want it nerfed OP? It's an amazing hard counter but if you use it anyway other then an execute prepare for the whispecs.
Yes I know RD is a little to strong right now, but so is shuffle.