Infallible Aether: Buff set, Troll set, Glitch set, or BIS?

VampiricByNature · July 2016

elium85 wrote: »

Whether or not it was 'intended' as a healer set, it has quickly become BiS for healers paired with SPC.

I agree.
I am missing one ring of infallible but it's what I am aiming for to match with my spc. I like the idea of twilight's remedy but I no clue when I will be able to assemble that set. I haven't even been able to get 1 of the jewelries yet.

f047ys3v3n · August 2016

Well, patch dropped and looks like the final call on minor slayer was to keep it at 5%. Probably wise on that one as Vicious already was giving two 5 piece magnitude bonuses and that would have been a third. However... This decision, combined with the other sets released in jewelry in this patch, means that Infallible is not best in slot for any magica dps that is not utilizing the shock staff exploit in combination with the vMA shock staff. In fact, it is not even going to be particularly close.

My specific thoughts:

Mag DK's will use sun and this will be a very strong set for them.

Sorcs will use Elegant which will work well with their overload. It won't be DK sun good or even close to any stam with VO but it will be very helpfull in VMA and dangerous in pvp.

Templars will probably use 4x transmutation with 2x monster or 3x transmutation if they have VMA staff. Regen is worth a lot to a Templar. Their skills are very expensive.

NB's will probably use Elegant or Destruction mastery. Neither of these is great for them just as none of the monster sets are great. The bottom line is they don't do enough dots for valken to be good, using force pulse instead of funnel for neraneth yields higher dps but the loss of heals is not even close to worth, not enough of their damage is fire for sun to be helpful, and they really aren't strapped for resources for transmutation though give ZOS another patch and this may change as nerf mag NB seems to be the order as of late. NB's were probably the class that needed Infallible to not suck most but it does suck, badly.

Infallible, for a dps, is effectively a 5 peice set that does not have a 5 peice strength bonus. It has 2 very crappy crit bonuses, a nice spell power, and a minor slayer that is effectively a spell power that only works in PVE. That is somewhat worse than an average 5 peice set with no 5 peice strength bonus would be as crit bonuses are very low in magnitude and rank far down my list of bonus desirability both because of that and because they have even less value in PVP.

My list normal bonuses for stam or mag in order:
1) Power - The magnitude of this is still greatest and it has equal value in PVP. Not what it used to be but still better than anything else.
2) Regen - Except for mag NB (and when this is not true of mag NB it will truly be worthless) everybody now needs more resources and with the huge nerf to cost reduction enchants this is one of the best ways to get it.
3) + main stat - Different skills scale differently off of this but it is both a substantial dps boost and helps some with sustain.
4) + Health - I advocate running 20k health in trials now. That amount requires that you either have it as a set buff or get some from attribute points or enchants. Because of this a health buff and a main stat buff basically have the same value.
5) Crit - You get 3.2% from a gold crit buff. This is a 1.6% dps increase. Not only is this very low in magnitude but it has even less value in PVP where impen will make it close to worthless. Crit mattered when it regenerated ultimate, avoided softcap and was 4% in magnitude. It is undesirable now and has been since 1.6 but ZOS has not caught on and changed any of the important sets to reflect this. Honestly, even at 4% it would still be pretty stinky. It would probably have to be 5% to come close to a flat stat buff.

6) + armor - Harder to get then spell resist and always helpful
7) + Spell resist - always good to have more
8) + Healing received - ok, for VMA or pvp this would probably rank 5, above crit, even for a DPS, but for most trials content it is the spikes in damage not the sustain that matter.
9) health regen - This is, and always has been, a completely worthless buff that even tanks typically don't want.

So, Infallible is a 5 peice set with effectively no 5 peice bonus. It is stinky and competes with Vicious Ophidian which is awesome. It is clearly supposed to be best in slot for PVE Mag DPS but is, in fact only usefull as a group buff set for healers to wear. My raid groups now average 1 magica dps despite mechanics that favor ranged and my PVP groups are the same despite the existence of Vicious Death (which I know is a driving reason magica builds have been destroyed.) ARRRGGGGGGG I am so frustrated with you ZOS people all of the things I want to say would get me banned from the forums.

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Well, patch dropped and looks like the final call on minor slayer was to keep it at 5%. Probably wise on that one as Vicious already was giving two 5 piece magnitude bonuses and that would have been a third. However... This decision, combined with the other sets released in jewelry in this patch, means that Infallible is not best in slot for any magica dps that is not utilizing the shock staff exploit in combination with the vMA shock staff. In fact, it is not even going to be particularly close.

My specific thoughts:

Mag DK's will use sun and this will be a very strong set for them.

Sorcs will use Elegant which will work well with their overload. It won't be DK sun good or even close to any stam with VO but it will be very helpfull in VMA and dangerous in pvp.

Templars will probably use 4x transmutation with 2x monster or 3x transmutation if they have VMA staff. Regen is worth a lot to a Templar. Their skills are very expensive.

NB's will probably use Elegant or Destruction mastery. Neither of these is great for them just as none of the monster sets are great. The bottom line is they don't do enough dots for valken to be good, using force pulse instead of funnel for neraneth yields higher dps but the loss of heals is not even close to worth, not enough of their damage is fire for sun to be helpful, and they really aren't strapped for resources for transmutation though give ZOS another patch and this may change as nerf mag NB seems to be the order as of late. NB's were probably the class that needed Infallible to not suck most but it does suck, badly.

Infallible, for a dps, is effectively a 5 peice set that does not have a 5 peice strength bonus. It has 2 very crappy crit bonuses, a nice spell power, and a minor slayer that is effectively a spell power that only works in PVE. That is somewhat worse than an average 5 peice set with no 5 peice strength bonus would be as crit bonuses are very low in magnitude and rank far down my list of bonus desirability both because of that and because they have even less value in PVP.

My list normal bonuses for stam or mag in order:
1) Power - The magnitude of this is still greatest and it has equal value in PVP. Not what it used to be but still better than anything else.
2) Regen - Except for mag NB (and when this is not true of mag NB it will truly be worthless) everybody now needs more resources and with the huge nerf to cost reduction enchants this is one of the best ways to get it.
3) + main stat - Different skills scale differently off of this but it is both a substantial dps boost and helps some with sustain.
4) + Health - I advocate running 20k health in trials now. That amount requires that you either have it as a set buff or get some from attribute points or enchants. Because of this a health buff and a main stat buff basically have the same value.
5) Crit - You get 3.2% from a gold crit buff. This is a 1.6% dps increase. Not only is this very low in magnitude but it has even less value in PVP where impen will make it close to worthless. Crit mattered when it regenerated ultimate, avoided softcap and was 4% in magnitude. It is undesirable now and has been since 1.6 but ZOS has not caught on and changed any of the important sets to reflect this. Honestly, even at 4% it would still be pretty stinky. It would probably have to be 5% to come close to a flat stat buff.

6) + armor - Harder to get then spell resist and always helpful
7) + Spell resist - always good to have more
8) + Healing received - ok, for VMA or pvp this would probably rank 5, above crit, even for a DPS, but for most trials content it is the spikes in damage not the sustain that matter.
9) health regen - This is, and always has been, a completely worthless buff that even tanks typically don't want.

So, Infallible is a 5 peice set with effectively no 5 peice bonus. It is stinky and competes with Vicious Ophidian which is awesome. It is clearly supposed to be best in slot for PVE Mag DPS but is, in fact only usefull as a group buff set for healers to wear. My raid groups now average 1 magica dps despite mechanics that favor ranged and my PVP groups are the same despite the existence of Vicious Death (which I know is a driving reason magica builds have been destroyed.) ARRRGGGGGGG I am so frustrated with you ZOS people all of the things I want to say would get me banned from the forums.

Just to point out that speaking for PvE this is simply innacurate...
1. Dks will wear 5 TBS 3 Infal 2 Kena/Skoria or 5 TBS 5 Infallible if you're using the staff build, which you should be since your healers should be running worm/ SPC or Gossamer/spc...
2. Nightblades still wear 5 Scathing 2 Kena/Nerieneth, but now they will run 3 infal jewelry and 2 infal swords on back bar.
3. Templars will either run 5 Julianos/TBS 2 Kena/Skoria 3 Infal jewelry with 2 infal swords OR 5 Juli/TBS 2 Kena/Skoria 3 moondancer jewelry 2 moondancer swords.
4. Sorcs will run same gear as nightblades...

Myths:
1. Sun set is great for DPS. It isn't. The sun set offers 400 spell damage to fire sources and 129 spell damage and 967 max magicka for dps. These are bonuses for 5 gear pieces. 400 spell damage is equivalent to around 6.47%. Infal gives you 5%, which means that the sun only adds around 1.47% more damage. This 1.47% increase to damage is easily eclipsed by the 6.28% crit you get from infal.
2. Infal has "crappy" crit bonuses. Are you joking? With how crit starved magicka users are 6.28% is HUGE. It's around a 4%+ dps increase, by itself.

DerpyShadowz · August 2016

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

My specific thoughts:

NB's will probably use Elegant or Destruction mastery. Neither of these is great for them just as none of the monster sets are great. The bottom line is they don't do enough dots for valken to be good, using force pulse instead of funnel for neraneth yields higher dps but the loss of heals is not even close to worth, not enough of their damage is fire for sun to be helpful, and they really aren't strapped for resources for transmutation though give ZOS another patch and this may change as nerf mag NB seems to be the order as of late. NB's were probably the class that needed Infallible to not suck most but it does suck, badly.

What part of Nightblade sucks badly?

(Not comparing to stamina since they are currently roll face on keyboard ahead of Magicka)

Comparing to all Magicka classes atm, show me something to prove this statement

Autolycus · August 2016

I disagree with a lot of this insight. I still see a lot of use in IA for Sorcs and DKs, who were the primary classes interested in it to begin with. Some of the comments here pertaining to how bad IA is now (which it's not, it has proven to be a significant increase in group damage) are saying that NBs and Temps are screwed for gear? Since when does a NB (other than a healer) want to run IA over Scathing? IA set bonuses are not at all bad for a Templar; spell crit isn't exactly a top priority as a healer, but it's a well-known concept that crit can be built in without giving up max magicka and SD (or even give up some SD if you want, it can be a positive swing depending on set choice).

The addition of IA for one of my Sorcs has boosted group damage by a desirable amount. To me it seems more valuable than Elegant and Sun in a trials setting (assuming you only have one sorc, we can have several different sets present). VMA is a different story perhaps; Elegant is quite useful in this instance but I've seen references to how useful the lightning staff exploit is in there as well.

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

Pinja · August 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Well, patch dropped and looks like the final call on minor slayer was to keep it at 5%. Probably wise on that one as Vicious already was giving two 5 piece magnitude bonuses and that would have been a third. However... This decision, combined with the other sets released in jewelry in this patch, means that Infallible is not best in slot for any magica dps that is not utilizing the shock staff exploit in combination with the vMA shock staff. In fact, it is not even going to be particularly close.

My specific thoughts:

Mag DK's will use sun and this will be a very strong set for them.

Sorcs will use Elegant which will work well with their overload. It won't be DK sun good or even close to any stam with VO but it will be very helpfull in VMA and dangerous in pvp.

Templars will probably use 4x transmutation with 2x monster or 3x transmutation if they have VMA staff. Regen is worth a lot to a Templar. Their skills are very expensive.

NB's will probably use Elegant or Destruction mastery. Neither of these is great for them just as none of the monster sets are great. The bottom line is they don't do enough dots for valken to be good, using force pulse instead of funnel for neraneth yields higher dps but the loss of heals is not even close to worth, not enough of their damage is fire for sun to be helpful, and they really aren't strapped for resources for transmutation though give ZOS another patch and this may change as nerf mag NB seems to be the order as of late. NB's were probably the class that needed Infallible to not suck most but it does suck, badly.

Infallible, for a dps, is effectively a 5 peice set that does not have a 5 peice strength bonus. It has 2 very crappy crit bonuses, a nice spell power, and a minor slayer that is effectively a spell power that only works in PVE. That is somewhat worse than an average 5 peice set with no 5 peice strength bonus would be as crit bonuses are very low in magnitude and rank far down my list of bonus desirability both because of that and because they have even less value in PVP.

My list normal bonuses for stam or mag in order:
1) Power - The magnitude of this is still greatest and it has equal value in PVP. Not what it used to be but still better than anything else.
2) Regen - Except for mag NB (and when this is not true of mag NB it will truly be worthless) everybody now needs more resources and with the huge nerf to cost reduction enchants this is one of the best ways to get it.
3) + main stat - Different skills scale differently off of this but it is both a substantial dps boost and helps some with sustain.
4) + Health - I advocate running 20k health in trials now. That amount requires that you either have it as a set buff or get some from attribute points or enchants. Because of this a health buff and a main stat buff basically have the same value.
5) Crit - You get 3.2% from a gold crit buff. This is a 1.6% dps increase. Not only is this very low in magnitude but it has even less value in PVP where impen will make it close to worthless. Crit mattered when it regenerated ultimate, avoided softcap and was 4% in magnitude. It is undesirable now and has been since 1.6 but ZOS has not caught on and changed any of the important sets to reflect this. Honestly, even at 4% it would still be pretty stinky. It would probably have to be 5% to come close to a flat stat buff.

6) + armor - Harder to get then spell resist and always helpful
7) + Spell resist - always good to have more
8) + Healing received - ok, for VMA or pvp this would probably rank 5, above crit, even for a DPS, but for most trials content it is the spikes in damage not the sustain that matter.
9) health regen - This is, and always has been, a completely worthless buff that even tanks typically don't want.

So, Infallible is a 5 peice set with effectively no 5 peice bonus. It is stinky and competes with Vicious Ophidian which is awesome. It is clearly supposed to be best in slot for PVE Mag DPS but is, in fact only usefull as a group buff set for healers to wear. My raid groups now average 1 magica dps despite mechanics that favor ranged and my PVP groups are the same despite the existence of Vicious Death (which I know is a driving reason magica builds have been destroyed.) ARRRGGGGGGG I am so frustrated with you ZOS people all of the things I want to say would get me banned from the forums.

Just to point out that speaking for PvE this is simply innacurate...
1. Dks will wear 5 TBS 3 Infal 2 Kena/Skoria or 5 TBS 5 Infallible if you're using the staff build, which you should be since your healers should be running worm/ SPC or Gossamer/spc...
2. Nightblades still wear 5 Scathing 2 Kena/Nerieneth, but now they will run 3 infal jewelry and 2 infal swords on back bar.
3. Templars will either run 5 Julianos/TBS 2 Kena/Skoria 3 Infal jewelry with 2 infal swords OR 5 Juli/TBS 2 Kena/Skoria 3 moondancer jewelry 2 moondancer swords.
4. Sorcs will run same gear as nightblades...

Myths:
1. Sun set is great for DPS. It isn't. The sun set offers 400 spell damage to fire sources and 129 spell damage and 967 max magicka for dps. These are bonuses for 5 gear pieces. 400 spell damage is equivalent to around 6.47%. Infal gives you 5%, which means that the sun only adds around 1.47% more damage. This 1.47% increase to damage is easily eclipsed by the 6.28% crit you get from infal.
2. Infal has "crappy" crit bonuses. Are you joking? With how crit starved magicka users are 6.28% is HUGE. It's around a 4%+ dps increase, by itself.

Did you not realize what he was saying in regards to stalff build... What are those two useless set piece bonuses going to do being run on swords... Compared to the indisputable more broad range, stam superior Vicious Ophidian this sets is no reward. As he said as a magic nightblade you could run it ontop of your crit bonus (Yirm...). But if the rest of the magic family is loosing dps over it, because of the failure of two set bonuses, its needs a buff.
I just got my IA & will do some testing with it on a staff build but one major foil I'm looking forward to is the failed heavy attack initiation proc thanks to evasion... Which also supports an incentive as he said to make it work on any heavy attack or light attack. As it wouldn't cost that much time to reapply after said failure.
If you know how to use an inferno staff like a flame whip, then you'd know how much damage is lost with the current setting. Changing that it would make a great buff to damage & almost make the set as worth while as VO. Saying it's great for healers, as is, shouts the current limitation of the set, sparking the question. Who else uses fully charges heavy staff attacks, NO one. (Noobs, understand just because it says heavy attack on the recap that doesn't mean its full -_-b)
When was the last time anyone's seen a sorc volunteer to stand up on the Pitchers mound & get battered?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2016

For what it's worth, I run the crap out of TBS/IA on both a Sorc and a DK. It took me through VMOL on my DK, and am pulling 33-35k on the first 2 bosses and 30k on the last boss. I think the last boss parse will get bumped once we start skipping the middle phase (we are about 10% off the needed DPS mark). You also must consider this is a huge utility set that is buffing your whole raid DPS. So even if I could pull 1-2k more personally, with other gear, I wouldnt run it.

To answer your question, IA is BIS in my opinion for Magic DKs, and arguably sorcs if you have a lightening VMA staff. I think the really gifted sorcs like Jace or Yolo will stick to a traditional "pew pew" build, but the amount of splash damage you can create is mind boggling. My sorc had a solid 45K parse on the second boss in the new AA going last night until I had to start rezing , no overload. Overload is still amazing for burst in 4 man stuff, but the fights are just too long in these trials to make it viable.

Some people like to get very high and mighty about "pure single target", but I think that is very short sighted. There are basically 2 single target fights now in raids. Manti, and the first boss in AA. Everything else has adds that MUST be killed. Optimizing Raid DPS =/= Optimizing Pure Single Target, and the first one is more important IMO.

As for healers running it, I think it is BIS in 4 man content if none of the DPS are running it. It is free AOE DPS (nice for a healer), and as said, it debuffs everything. In a raid, I dont think it makes as much sense because there will likely be a few DPS running it so the debuff should already be on everything. My guess is that the meta will shift to both healers in SPC, with 1 Worm and 1 Gossamer, but I wont bet the farm just yet.

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

Pinja wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Well, patch dropped and looks like the final call on minor slayer was to keep it at 5%. Probably wise on that one as Vicious already was giving two 5 piece magnitude bonuses and that would have been a third. However... This decision, combined with the other sets released in jewelry in this patch, means that Infallible is not best in slot for any magica dps that is not utilizing the shock staff exploit in combination with the vMA shock staff. In fact, it is not even going to be particularly close.

My specific thoughts:

Mag DK's will use sun and this will be a very strong set for them.

Sorcs will use Elegant which will work well with their overload. It won't be DK sun good or even close to any stam with VO but it will be very helpfull in VMA and dangerous in pvp.

Templars will probably use 4x transmutation with 2x monster or 3x transmutation if they have VMA staff. Regen is worth a lot to a Templar. Their skills are very expensive.

NB's will probably use Elegant or Destruction mastery. Neither of these is great for them just as none of the monster sets are great. The bottom line is they don't do enough dots for valken to be good, using force pulse instead of funnel for neraneth yields higher dps but the loss of heals is not even close to worth, not enough of their damage is fire for sun to be helpful, and they really aren't strapped for resources for transmutation though give ZOS another patch and this may change as nerf mag NB seems to be the order as of late. NB's were probably the class that needed Infallible to not suck most but it does suck, badly.

Infallible, for a dps, is effectively a 5 peice set that does not have a 5 peice strength bonus. It has 2 very crappy crit bonuses, a nice spell power, and a minor slayer that is effectively a spell power that only works in PVE. That is somewhat worse than an average 5 peice set with no 5 peice strength bonus would be as crit bonuses are very low in magnitude and rank far down my list of bonus desirability both because of that and because they have even less value in PVP.

My list normal bonuses for stam or mag in order:
1) Power - The magnitude of this is still greatest and it has equal value in PVP. Not what it used to be but still better than anything else.
2) Regen - Except for mag NB (and when this is not true of mag NB it will truly be worthless) everybody now needs more resources and with the huge nerf to cost reduction enchants this is one of the best ways to get it.
3) + main stat - Different skills scale differently off of this but it is both a substantial dps boost and helps some with sustain.
4) + Health - I advocate running 20k health in trials now. That amount requires that you either have it as a set buff or get some from attribute points or enchants. Because of this a health buff and a main stat buff basically have the same value.
5) Crit - You get 3.2% from a gold crit buff. This is a 1.6% dps increase. Not only is this very low in magnitude but it has even less value in PVP where impen will make it close to worthless. Crit mattered when it regenerated ultimate, avoided softcap and was 4% in magnitude. It is undesirable now and has been since 1.6 but ZOS has not caught on and changed any of the important sets to reflect this. Honestly, even at 4% it would still be pretty stinky. It would probably have to be 5% to come close to a flat stat buff.

6) + armor - Harder to get then spell resist and always helpful
7) + Spell resist - always good to have more
8) + Healing received - ok, for VMA or pvp this would probably rank 5, above crit, even for a DPS, but for most trials content it is the spikes in damage not the sustain that matter.
9) health regen - This is, and always has been, a completely worthless buff that even tanks typically don't want.

So, Infallible is a 5 peice set with effectively no 5 peice bonus. It is stinky and competes with Vicious Ophidian which is awesome. It is clearly supposed to be best in slot for PVE Mag DPS but is, in fact only usefull as a group buff set for healers to wear. My raid groups now average 1 magica dps despite mechanics that favor ranged and my PVP groups are the same despite the existence of Vicious Death (which I know is a driving reason magica builds have been destroyed.) ARRRGGGGGGG I am so frustrated with you ZOS people all of the things I want to say would get me banned from the forums.

Just to point out that speaking for PvE this is simply innacurate...
1. Dks will wear 5 TBS 3 Infal 2 Kena/Skoria or 5 TBS 5 Infallible if you're using the staff build, which you should be since your healers should be running worm/ SPC or Gossamer/spc...
2. Nightblades still wear 5 Scathing 2 Kena/Nerieneth, but now they will run 3 infal jewelry and 2 infal swords on back bar.
3. Templars will either run 5 Julianos/TBS 2 Kena/Skoria 3 Infal jewelry with 2 infal swords OR 5 Juli/TBS 2 Kena/Skoria 3 moondancer jewelry 2 moondancer swords.
4. Sorcs will run same gear as nightblades...

Myths:
1. Sun set is great for DPS. It isn't. The sun set offers 400 spell damage to fire sources and 129 spell damage and 967 max magicka for dps. These are bonuses for 5 gear pieces. 400 spell damage is equivalent to around 6.47%. Infal gives you 5%, which means that the sun only adds around 1.47% more damage. This 1.47% increase to damage is easily eclipsed by the 6.28% crit you get from infal.
2. Infal has "crappy" crit bonuses. Are you joking? With how crit starved magicka users are 6.28% is HUGE. It's around a 4%+ dps increase, by itself.

Did you not realize what he was saying in regards to stalff build... What are those two useless set piece bonuses going to do being run on swords... Compared to the indisputable more broad range, stam superior Vicious Ophidian this sets is no reward. As he said as a magic nightblade you could run it ontop of your crit bonus (Yirm...). But if the rest of the magic family is loosing dps over it, because of the failure of two set bonuses, its needs a buff.
I just got my IA & will do some testing with it on a staff build but one major foil I'm looking forward to is the failed heavy attack initiation proc thanks to evasion... Which also supports an incentive as he said to make it work on any heavy attack or light attack. As it wouldn't cost that much time to reapply after said failure.
If you know how to use an inferno staff like a flame whip, then you'd know how much damage is lost with the current setting. Changing that it would make a great buff to damage & almost make the set as worth while as VO. Saying it's great for healers, as is, shouts the current limitation of the set, sparking the question. Who else uses fully charges heavy staff attacks, NO one. (Noobs, understand just because it says heavy attack on the recap that doesn't mean its full -_-b)
When was the last time anyone's seen a sorc volunteer to stand up on the Pitchers mound & get battered?

I'm not understanding what you are trying to say. I will tell you though that if you arent running infal in some form (3 piece or 5 piece), you are losing DPS.

VO offers Recovery, 2 crit bonuses, wep damage and slayer. Infal offers Minor Vulnerability, 2 crit bonuses, spell damage and slayer. The sets offer similar bonuses with Infal outdoing VO significantly if a lightning staff is used.

For Templars/Nightblade/Sorcs who DW it provides an additional crit bonus to the 3 willpower/2 torugs set up, which is while not a huge improvement, an improvement non the less. no one is losing anything from running it...i dont get where you are getting this logic from?

I use infal on my Dk...here is an example of a parse: http://imgur.com/2QLwRg3 Please tell me about those failed heavy attacks...

No buff to this set is necessary and the healers should be running SPC/Worm and SPC/Gossamer/Twilight... they should NOT be running infal. Do you know why? Because They wont have time to apply infal to each and every add that spawns, while the dps can shift targets and apply the debuff to all adds, resulting in a huge DPS increase for the group.

Who else is using fully charged heavy attacks? You are clearly not up to date to tthe meta...Fully charged heavy attacks on a vMA lightning staff is now standard for AoE...as a DK my resources are at full, my damage is high and the group DPS is through the roof...oh and dont forget im pulling higherr AoE dps than stambuilds with this setup, whilst having infinite resources....

So no...your assessment is incorrect.

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

For what it's worth, I run the crap out of TBS/IA on both a Sorc and a DK. It took me through VMOL on my DK, and am pulling 33-35k on the first 2 bosses and 30k on the last boss. I think the last boss parse will get bumped once we start skipping the middle phase (we are about 10% off the needed DPS mark). You also must consider this is a huge utility set that is buffing your whole raid DPS. So even if I could pull 1-2k more personally, with other gear, I wouldnt run it.

To answer your question, IA is BIS in my opinion for Magic DKs, and arguably sorcs if you have a lightening VMA staff. I think the really gifted sorcs like Jace or Yolo will stick to a traditional "pew pew" build, but the amount of splash damage you can create is mind boggling. My sorc had a solid 45K parse on the second boss in the new AA going last night until I had to start rezing , no overload. Overload is still amazing for burst in 4 man stuff, but the fights are just too long in these trials to make it viable.

Some people like to get very high and mighty about "pure single target", but I think that is very short sighted. There are basically 2 single target fights now in raids. Manti, and the first boss in AA. Everything else has adds that MUST be killed. Optimizing Raid DPS =/= Optimizing Pure Single Target, and the first one is more important IMO.

As for healers running it, I think it is BIS in 4 man content if none of the DPS are running it. It is free AOE DPS (nice for a healer), and as said, it debuffs everything. In a raid, I dont think it makes as much sense because there will likely be a few DPS running it so the debuff should already be on everything. My guess is that the meta will shift to both healers in SPC, with 1 Worm and 1 Gossamer, but I wont bet the farm just yet.

Were running gossamer/spc and worm/spc right now....its nice:)

f047ys3v3n · August 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Pinja wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Well, patch dropped and looks like the final call on minor slayer was to keep it at 5%. Probably wise on that one as Vicious already was giving two 5 piece magnitude bonuses and that would have been a third. However... This decision, combined with the other sets released in jewelry in this patch, means that Infallible is not best in slot for any magica dps that is not utilizing the shock staff exploit in combination with the vMA shock staff. In fact, it is not even going to be particularly close.

My specific thoughts:

Mag DK's will use sun and this will be a very strong set for them.

Sorcs will use Elegant which will work well with their overload. It won't be DK sun good or even close to any stam with VO but it will be very helpfull in VMA and dangerous in pvp.

Templars will probably use 4x transmutation with 2x monster or 3x transmutation if they have VMA staff. Regen is worth a lot to a Templar. Their skills are very expensive.

NB's will probably use Elegant or Destruction mastery. Neither of these is great for them just as none of the monster sets are great. The bottom line is they don't do enough dots for valken to be good, using force pulse instead of funnel for neraneth yields higher dps but the loss of heals is not even close to worth, not enough of their damage is fire for sun to be helpful, and they really aren't strapped for resources for transmutation though give ZOS another patch and this may change as nerf mag NB seems to be the order as of late. NB's were probably the class that needed Infallible to not suck most but it does suck, badly.

Infallible, for a dps, is effectively a 5 peice set that does not have a 5 peice strength bonus. It has 2 very crappy crit bonuses, a nice spell power, and a minor slayer that is effectively a spell power that only works in PVE. That is somewhat worse than an average 5 peice set with no 5 peice strength bonus would be as crit bonuses are very low in magnitude and rank far down my list of bonus desirability both because of that and because they have even less value in PVP.

My list normal bonuses for stam or mag in order:
1) Power - The magnitude of this is still greatest and it has equal value in PVP. Not what it used to be but still better than anything else.
2) Regen - Except for mag NB (and when this is not true of mag NB it will truly be worthless) everybody now needs more resources and with the huge nerf to cost reduction enchants this is one of the best ways to get it.
3) + main stat - Different skills scale differently off of this but it is both a substantial dps boost and helps some with sustain.
4) + Health - I advocate running 20k health in trials now. That amount requires that you either have it as a set buff or get some from attribute points or enchants. Because of this a health buff and a main stat buff basically have the same value.
5) Crit - You get 3.2% from a gold crit buff. This is a 1.6% dps increase. Not only is this very low in magnitude but it has even less value in PVP where impen will make it close to worthless. Crit mattered when it regenerated ultimate, avoided softcap and was 4% in magnitude. It is undesirable now and has been since 1.6 but ZOS has not caught on and changed any of the important sets to reflect this. Honestly, even at 4% it would still be pretty stinky. It would probably have to be 5% to come close to a flat stat buff.

6) + armor - Harder to get then spell resist and always helpful
7) + Spell resist - always good to have more
8) + Healing received - ok, for VMA or pvp this would probably rank 5, above crit, even for a DPS, but for most trials content it is the spikes in damage not the sustain that matter.
9) health regen - This is, and always has been, a completely worthless buff that even tanks typically don't want.

So, Infallible is a 5 peice set with effectively no 5 peice bonus. It is stinky and competes with Vicious Ophidian which is awesome. It is clearly supposed to be best in slot for PVE Mag DPS but is, in fact only usefull as a group buff set for healers to wear. My raid groups now average 1 magica dps despite mechanics that favor ranged and my PVP groups are the same despite the existence of Vicious Death (which I know is a driving reason magica builds have been destroyed.) ARRRGGGGGGG I am so frustrated with you ZOS people all of the things I want to say would get me banned from the forums.

Just to point out that speaking for PvE this is simply innacurate...
1. Dks will wear 5 TBS 3 Infal 2 Kena/Skoria or 5 TBS 5 Infallible if you're using the staff build, which you should be since your healers should be running worm/ SPC or Gossamer/spc...
2. Nightblades still wear 5 Scathing 2 Kena/Nerieneth, but now they will run 3 infal jewelry and 2 infal swords on back bar.
3. Templars will either run 5 Julianos/TBS 2 Kena/Skoria 3 Infal jewelry with 2 infal swords OR 5 Juli/TBS 2 Kena/Skoria 3 moondancer jewelry 2 moondancer swords.
4. Sorcs will run same gear as nightblades...

Myths:
1. Sun set is great for DPS. It isn't. The sun set offers 400 spell damage to fire sources and 129 spell damage and 967 max magicka for dps. These are bonuses for 5 gear pieces. 400 spell damage is equivalent to around 6.47%. Infal gives you 5%, which means that the sun only adds around 1.47% more damage. This 1.47% increase to damage is easily eclipsed by the 6.28% crit you get from infal.
2. Infal has "crappy" crit bonuses. Are you joking? With how crit starved magicka users are 6.28% is HUGE. It's around a 4%+ dps increase, by itself.

Did you not realize what he was saying in regards to stalff build... What are those two useless set piece bonuses going to do being run on swords... Compared to the indisputable more broad range, stam superior Vicious Ophidian this sets is no reward. As he said as a magic nightblade you could run it ontop of your crit bonus (Yirm...). But if the rest of the magic family is loosing dps over it, because of the failure of two set bonuses, its needs a buff.
I just got my IA & will do some testing with it on a staff build but one major foil I'm looking forward to is the failed heavy attack initiation proc thanks to evasion... Which also supports an incentive as he said to make it work on any heavy attack or light attack. As it wouldn't cost that much time to reapply after said failure.
If you know how to use an inferno staff like a flame whip, then you'd know how much damage is lost with the current setting. Changing that it would make a great buff to damage & almost make the set as worth while as VO. Saying it's great for healers, as is, shouts the current limitation of the set, sparking the question. Who else uses fully charges heavy staff attacks, NO one. (Noobs, understand just because it says heavy attack on the recap that doesn't mean its full -_-b)
When was the last time anyone's seen a sorc volunteer to stand up on the Pitchers mound & get battered?

I'm not understanding what you are trying to say. I will tell you though that if you arent running infal in some form (3 piece or 5 piece), you are losing DPS.

VO offers Recovery, 2 crit bonuses, wep damage and slayer. Infal offers Minor Vulnerability, 2 crit bonuses, spell damage and slayer. The sets offer similar bonuses with Infal outdoing VO significantly if a lightning staff is used.

For Templars/Nightblade/Sorcs who DW it provides an additional crit bonus to the 3 willpower/2 torugs set up, which is while not a huge improvement, an improvement non the less. no one is losing anything from running it...i dont get where you are getting this logic from?

I use infal on my Dk...here is an example of a parse: http://imgur.com/2QLwRg3 Please tell me about those failed heavy attacks...

No buff to this set is necessary and the healers should be running SPC/Worm and SPC/Gossamer/Twilight... they should NOT be running infal. Do you know why? Because They wont have time to apply infal to each and every add that spawns, while the dps can shift targets and apply the debuff to all adds, resulting in a huge DPS increase for the group.

Who else is using fully charged heavy attacks? You are clearly not up to date to tthe meta...Fully charged heavy attacks on a vMA lightning staff is now standard for AoE...as a DK my resources are at full, my damage is high and the group DPS is through the roof...oh and dont forget im pulling higherr AoE dps than stambuilds with this setup, whilst having infinite resources....

So no...your assessment is incorrect.

Oh how I wish I had some (at least 2 and ideally 4 for vMoL) mag DK's with right traited vMA staffs to run the exploity shock staff build, apply the Infal debuff, and even be able to switch to provide pretty good ranged dps in applicable fights. I wish I had close to 100% uptime on warhorn. I wish I never saw a meteor dropped in trial. I wish all my stam dps's were at 45k and all my mag ones had 35k. There are less than 4 guilds on the NA server who have these things. The meta you are talking about is only relevant to those few who have the cohesion, dedication, and playtime, to specifically dictate exactly what role, gear and skills every player in the raid is running. For everybody else you form with the best players you have, run who you need to in the roles that must be filled by the most competent players for a good completion, try to get some mitigations, and group buffs from the few you can, and pick up the unimpressive newer melee stam players who are filling most your dps roles when they die because many of your better players have to run utility roles to get a complete.

I get it, sucks for all the rest of us. LTP, get better players, and run a better meta. As I said, we are down to less than 4 guilds on the NA server possessing the gear, high levels of run to run group cohesion, and depth of player skill base to do the things that make your meta work. It is true that in a warhorned world the crit on infal is worth more than in other situations. It is true that with an exploit build with a right traited vMA staff the last infal bonus is very good and healers won't have to run infal. It is also true that infal is not very good for all but the players in guild with all those things running. In short, it is not very good, certainly nowhere near equivalent to the VO stam builds instead have.

We can argue about the wisdom of all these decisions. I, in fact, have a long post about it: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/267330/towards-an-understanding-of-diverging-player-performance-and-its-effect-on-content-scaling#latest
which basically concludes that with the decisions ZOS has made regarding a whole variety of choices it is not longer possible to scale content in any remotely effective way. Witness already all top groups completing VDSA using a stack strategy on the final boss. Witness the top guilds doing the vMoL final fight with the far easier stack and ignore mechanics method. An only self buffed mag toon without VMA gear will top out at around 22k and a fully buffed stam dk will go over 50k. It is not possible to scale content in this environment. Infal is a set that just adds to this mess being only really worthwhile in groups the optimization of which basically requires many of it's players, and certainly it's guildmaster, to be supported by something other than traditional employment.

In short I loathe it all. We have gone from a game which had enough good players to fill an entire AA 100 person board with no death runs to one where no guild can even do vMoL hard mode but the members of that guild continually complain about how easy content that less than .01% of players in game and less than half of players who play every day can complete. As a player who has completed much of that content and topped the leaderboards on a number of occasions. I am not in concurrence with the divergence decisions of ZOS and also not in concurrence that Infal should be a set whose usefullness is restricted to certain exploit builds or to less than 4 guilds on the NA server who have the correct set of group buffs in play.

I have been totally unimpressed with Infal on both my NB and templar builds. To the extend that I can even test dps in a post ninglenelee era I if anything my dps with it is lower than before. On paper it dosen't really look much better than in practice. It is true that I do not run in these fully buffed groups and I see how, on paper, it looks better in them. I just don't think that a set that matters for 4 players each in 3 guilds can be considered good. That is only 12 total players on the NA server with everybody else running it as a healer buff set.

f047ys3v3n · August 2016

I Highlander l wrote: »

What part of Nightblade sucks badly?
(Not comparing to stamina since they are currently roll face on keyboard ahead of Magicka)

Comparing to all Magicka classes atm, show me something to prove this statement

Read again. I said infalible sucks for magblades and they they stood to benifit most from that set being good since few other options are as appealing for them not that magblades suck compared to other mag classes. I agree with you on stam builds generally crushing mag builds with the caveat that much of this is because stam builds get about 10k from vMA weapons where as mag builds get maybe 3k. This hides to the average player just how dominant stam can be and also makes for a lot of newer terrible stam players who just copy builds they see on the internet without either understanding the importance of gear to them or really having the skill to play builds that, being close to the boss, have more mechanics to deal with and also have the liability of channeled attacks in the rotation that players must time and cancel well to avoid getting caught in mechanics while doing.

Oh the problems that all these new stam builds are causing me every time they try out for my guild. 35k they may do on bloodspawn but they are dead more than half the time on the serpent (DB patch hard mode) getting caught in their channels during worldshaper, not dropping mag bombs, not having enough health to survive tears without running the mitigation they are not running, and not being about to keep up their rotation with everything happening. Out of around 10 stam tryouts I could only take 1 into guild and had to drop many from group to complete. Curse ZOS for so cursing me.

code65536 · August 2016

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

not in concurrence that Infal should be a set whose usefullness is restricted to certain exploit builds or to less than 4 guilds on the NA server who have the correct set of group buffs in play.

First, "exploit"? It's certainly unorthodox, but I fail to see how on earth the use of perfectly valid game mechanics be considered an "exploit". In fact, I think it's quite a relief to finally see a move away from the monopoly that a sharpened vMA inferno staff has had. It's good to finally see other gear combinations and weapon types be made viable, and your characterization of it as "exploit" is both baffling and off the mark.

Second, you don't need all those group buffs to make it shine. I use Infal heavy attacks for AoE on my sorc's pledge runs, and it works nicely without anything close to full raid buffs.

Nor were there "elite" raid buffs on the parse that Nos posted. I was there that night, and while we did have war horns going out, it was pretty lax. You can see from the screenshot that the war horn up time (not even talking about the crit portion of it, but war horn in general) didn't even make it on to the first screenful of buffs.

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Pinja wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

Well, patch dropped and looks like the final call on minor slayer was to keep it at 5%. Probably wise on that one as Vicious already was giving two 5 piece magnitude bonuses and that would have been a third. However... This decision, combined with the other sets released in jewelry in this patch, means that Infallible is not best in slot for any magica dps that is not utilizing the shock staff exploit in combination with the vMA shock staff. In fact, it is not even going to be particularly close.

My specific thoughts:

Mag DK's will use sun and this will be a very strong set for them.

Sorcs will use Elegant which will work well with their overload. It won't be DK sun good or even close to any stam with VO but it will be very helpfull in VMA and dangerous in pvp.

Templars will probably use 4x transmutation with 2x monster or 3x transmutation if they have VMA staff. Regen is worth a lot to a Templar. Their skills are very expensive.

NB's will probably use Elegant or Destruction mastery. Neither of these is great for them just as none of the monster sets are great. The bottom line is they don't do enough dots for valken to be good, using force pulse instead of funnel for neraneth yields higher dps but the loss of heals is not even close to worth, not enough of their damage is fire for sun to be helpful, and they really aren't strapped for resources for transmutation though give ZOS another patch and this may change as nerf mag NB seems to be the order as of late. NB's were probably the class that needed Infallible to not suck most but it does suck, badly.

Infallible, for a dps, is effectively a 5 peice set that does not have a 5 peice strength bonus. It has 2 very crappy crit bonuses, a nice spell power, and a minor slayer that is effectively a spell power that only works in PVE. That is somewhat worse than an average 5 peice set with no 5 peice strength bonus would be as crit bonuses are very low in magnitude and rank far down my list of bonus desirability both because of that and because they have even less value in PVP.

My list normal bonuses for stam or mag in order:
1) Power - The magnitude of this is still greatest and it has equal value in PVP. Not what it used to be but still better than anything else.
2) Regen - Except for mag NB (and when this is not true of mag NB it will truly be worthless) everybody now needs more resources and with the huge nerf to cost reduction enchants this is one of the best ways to get it.
3) + main stat - Different skills scale differently off of this but it is both a substantial dps boost and helps some with sustain.
4) + Health - I advocate running 20k health in trials now. That amount requires that you either have it as a set buff or get some from attribute points or enchants. Because of this a health buff and a main stat buff basically have the same value.
5) Crit - You get 3.2% from a gold crit buff. This is a 1.6% dps increase. Not only is this very low in magnitude but it has even less value in PVP where impen will make it close to worthless. Crit mattered when it regenerated ultimate, avoided softcap and was 4% in magnitude. It is undesirable now and has been since 1.6 but ZOS has not caught on and changed any of the important sets to reflect this. Honestly, even at 4% it would still be pretty stinky. It would probably have to be 5% to come close to a flat stat buff.

6) + armor - Harder to get then spell resist and always helpful
7) + Spell resist - always good to have more
8) + Healing received - ok, for VMA or pvp this would probably rank 5, above crit, even for a DPS, but for most trials content it is the spikes in damage not the sustain that matter.
9) health regen - This is, and always has been, a completely worthless buff that even tanks typically don't want.

So, Infallible is a 5 peice set with effectively no 5 peice bonus. It is stinky and competes with Vicious Ophidian which is awesome. It is clearly supposed to be best in slot for PVE Mag DPS but is, in fact only usefull as a group buff set for healers to wear. My raid groups now average 1 magica dps despite mechanics that favor ranged and my PVP groups are the same despite the existence of Vicious Death (which I know is a driving reason magica builds have been destroyed.) ARRRGGGGGGG I am so frustrated with you ZOS people all of the things I want to say would get me banned from the forums.

Just to point out that speaking for PvE this is simply innacurate...
1. Dks will wear 5 TBS 3 Infal 2 Kena/Skoria or 5 TBS 5 Infallible if you're using the staff build, which you should be since your healers should be running worm/ SPC or Gossamer/spc...
2. Nightblades still wear 5 Scathing 2 Kena/Nerieneth, but now they will run 3 infal jewelry and 2 infal swords on back bar.
3. Templars will either run 5 Julianos/TBS 2 Kena/Skoria 3 Infal jewelry with 2 infal swords OR 5 Juli/TBS 2 Kena/Skoria 3 moondancer jewelry 2 moondancer swords.
4. Sorcs will run same gear as nightblades...

Myths:
1. Sun set is great for DPS. It isn't. The sun set offers 400 spell damage to fire sources and 129 spell damage and 967 max magicka for dps. These are bonuses for 5 gear pieces. 400 spell damage is equivalent to around 6.47%. Infal gives you 5%, which means that the sun only adds around 1.47% more damage. This 1.47% increase to damage is easily eclipsed by the 6.28% crit you get from infal.
2. Infal has "crappy" crit bonuses. Are you joking? With how crit starved magicka users are 6.28% is HUGE. It's around a 4%+ dps increase, by itself.

Did you not realize what he was saying in regards to stalff build... What are those two useless set piece bonuses going to do being run on swords... Compared to the indisputable more broad range, stam superior Vicious Ophidian this sets is no reward. As he said as a magic nightblade you could run it ontop of your crit bonus (Yirm...). But if the rest of the magic family is loosing dps over it, because of the failure of two set bonuses, its needs a buff.
I just got my IA & will do some testing with it on a staff build but one major foil I'm looking forward to is the failed heavy attack initiation proc thanks to evasion... Which also supports an incentive as he said to make it work on any heavy attack or light attack. As it wouldn't cost that much time to reapply after said failure.
If you know how to use an inferno staff like a flame whip, then you'd know how much damage is lost with the current setting. Changing that it would make a great buff to damage & almost make the set as worth while as VO. Saying it's great for healers, as is, shouts the current limitation of the set, sparking the question. Who else uses fully charges heavy staff attacks, NO one. (Noobs, understand just because it says heavy attack on the recap that doesn't mean its full -_-b)
When was the last time anyone's seen a sorc volunteer to stand up on the Pitchers mound & get battered?

I'm not understanding what you are trying to say. I will tell you though that if you arent running infal in some form (3 piece or 5 piece), you are losing DPS.

VO offers Recovery, 2 crit bonuses, wep damage and slayer. Infal offers Minor Vulnerability, 2 crit bonuses, spell damage and slayer. The sets offer similar bonuses with Infal outdoing VO significantly if a lightning staff is used.

For Templars/Nightblade/Sorcs who DW it provides an additional crit bonus to the 3 willpower/2 torugs set up, which is while not a huge improvement, an improvement non the less. no one is losing anything from running it...i dont get where you are getting this logic from?

I use infal on my Dk...here is an example of a parse: http://imgur.com/2QLwRg3 Please tell me about those failed heavy attacks...

No buff to this set is necessary and the healers should be running SPC/Worm and SPC/Gossamer/Twilight... they should NOT be running infal. Do you know why? Because They wont have time to apply infal to each and every add that spawns, while the dps can shift targets and apply the debuff to all adds, resulting in a huge DPS increase for the group.

Who else is using fully charged heavy attacks? You are clearly not up to date to tthe meta...Fully charged heavy attacks on a vMA lightning staff is now standard for AoE...as a DK my resources are at full, my damage is high and the group DPS is through the roof...oh and dont forget im pulling higherr AoE dps than stambuilds with this setup, whilst having infinite resources....

So no...your assessment is incorrect.

Oh how I wish I had some (at least 2 and ideally 4 for vMoL) mag DK's with right traited vMA staffs to run the exploity shock staff build, apply the Infal debuff, and even be able to switch to provide pretty good ranged dps in applicable fights. I wish I had close to 100% uptime on warhorn. I wish I never saw a meteor dropped in trial. I wish all my stam dps's were at 45k and all my mag ones had 35k. There are less than 4 guilds on the NA server who have these things. The meta you are talking about is only relevant to those few who have the cohesion, dedication, and playtime, to specifically dictate exactly what role, gear and skills every player in the raid is running. For everybody else you form with the best players you have, run who you need to in the roles that must be filled by the most competent players for a good completion, try to get some mitigations, and group buffs from the few you can, and pick up the unimpressive newer melee stam players who are filling most your dps roles when they die because many of your better players have to run utility roles to get a complete.

I get it, sucks for all the rest of us. LTP, get better players, and run a better meta. As I said, we are down to less than 4 guilds on the NA server possessing the gear, high levels of run to run group cohesion, and depth of player skill base to do the things that make your meta work. It is true that in a warhorned world the crit on infal is worth more than in other situations. It is true that with an exploit build with a right traited vMA staff the last infal bonus is very good and healers won't have to run infal. It is also true that infal is not very good for all but the players in guild with all those things running. In short, it is not very good, certainly nowhere near equivalent to the VO stam builds instead have.

We can argue about the wisdom of all these decisions. I, in fact, have a long post about it: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/267330/towards-an-understanding-of-diverging-player-performance-and-its-effect-on-content-scaling#latest
which basically concludes that with the decisions ZOS has made regarding a whole variety of choices it is not longer possible to scale content in any remotely effective way. Witness already all top groups completing VDSA using a stack strategy on the final boss. Witness the top guilds doing the vMoL final fight with the far easier stack and ignore mechanics method. An only self buffed mag toon without VMA gear will top out at around 22k and a fully buffed stam dk will go over 50k. It is not possible to scale content in this environment. Infal is a set that just adds to this mess being only really worthwhile in groups the optimization of which basically requires many of it's players, and certainly it's guildmaster, to be supported by something other than traditional employment.

In short I loathe it all. We have gone from a game which had enough good players to fill an entire AA 100 person board with no death runs to one where no guild can even do vMoL hard mode but the members of that guild continually complain about how easy content that less than .01% of players in game and less than half of players who play every day can complete. As a player who has completed much of that content and topped the leaderboards on a number of occasions. I am not in concurrence with the divergence decisions of ZOS and also not in concurrence that Infal should be a set whose usefullness is restricted to certain exploit builds or to less than 4 guilds on the NA server who have the correct set of group buffs in play.

I have been totally unimpressed with Infal on both my NB and templar builds. To the extend that I can even test dps in a post ninglenelee era I if anything my dps with it is lower than before. On paper it dosen't really look much better than in practice. It is true that I do not run in these fully buffed groups and I see how, on paper, it looks better in them. I just don't think that a set that matters for 4 players each in 3 guilds can be considered good. That is only 12 total players on the NA server with everybody else running it as a healer buff set.

You sir appear to be out of touch with reality. You call builds exploity that simply take advantage of existing mechanics in the game and are only really good given the particular sets. For example the 25k ticks of my splash damage are only there because of infal tbs and a VMA staff. Withour these it would be bad. Saying that unbuffed mag users top out at 22k is just plain false, no I'm not telling you to LTP, your playstyle and choices are your own. I'm telling you to stop telling lies. Since 25k unbuffed on bloodspawn is a fear very easy to achieve. And 30k+ is doable if you really practice your rotation. In my guild there is an entrance test which requires you to pull 25k unbuffed....I have yet to have a recruit fail it...also even without warhorn this meta works just fine, your dps may not be 35k. It may be 32k, but it will definitely be above 30.

Your post specifically attacks this set and while I do not mind you thinking this. I don't want the rest of the community to fall victim to misinformation. Infal is good regardless of whether you're solo questing doing 4 man's or trials, it's simply BiS for most PvE setups as a 3,4 or a 5 piece set (depending on your needs). Infal is what allowed my sorc and DK to up their DPS in vMoL by 5k+.

f047ys3v3n · August 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

You sir appear to be out of touch with reality. You call builds exploity that simply take advantage of existing mechanics in the game and are only really good given the particular sets. For example the 25k ticks of my splash damage are only there because of infal tbs and a VMA staff. Withour these it would be bad. Saying that unbuffed mag users top out at 22k is just plain false, no I'm not telling you to LTP, your playstyle and choices are your own. I'm telling you to stop telling lies. Since 25k unbuffed on bloodspawn is a fear very easy to achieve. And 30k+ is doable if you really practice your rotation. In my guild there is an entrance test which requires you to pull 25k unbuffed....I have yet to have a recruit fail it...also even without warhorn this meta works just fine, your dps may not be 35k. It may be 32k, but it will definitely be above 30.

Your post specifically attacks this set and while I do not mind you thinking this. I don't want the rest of the community to fall victim to misinformation. Infal is good regardless of whether you're solo questing doing 4 man's or trials, it's simply BiS for most PvE setups as a 3,4 or a 5 piece set (depending on your needs). Infal is what allowed my sorc and DK to up their DPS in vMoL by 5k+.

As for a build being exploity for taking advantage of existing mechanics of the game. Well, do you think salvation is supposed to give you 100k weapon damage when you go wherewolf? I am told it currently does this. Sets don't always work how there supposed to. Witness the long time you could use TBS to get you many extra mundus permanently or you know who's old set that made him near invincible in PVP for a year and a half. I kind of doubt the intention of this was to proc 3x times during one channeled heavy attack. I agree with you that to make that build work and be interesting it must be so. I even agree that it is not all that OP and a nice change to have something other than a flame staff on top but I doubt it was intended.

As for 22k, that was unbuffed on nSO serpent not squishy mister bloodspawn. Amazingly the numbers were basically the same for my mag NB and mag Templar in consecutive farm runs. Bloodspawn is really a nice way to make oneself feel good but I have found nSO serpent dps to translate well to other bosses in trials whereas bloodspawn dps is just very rosy. Also, I occasionally jump in on nSO farm runs which often are unbuffed giving me a nice dps test without having to do something special. I agree that bloodspawn is very easy to do 25k on unbuffed. Wouldn't it be nice if we had a dps dummy to test dps on and have an easy universal comparison? I should probably go run a test on bloodspawn to see what I am currently doing on that. Certainly, last time I tested 25k was not very hard. Unfortunately, he is not a very convenient dps test. I'm more leaning in the direction of the brazier guy in VSO as dying to one trash pull is very much faster than running the first third of spindle and I expect that guy is probably resistant enough to be meaningful.

I am amazed you see an increase with infal of 5k in VMol. I would probably like it better if I had a vMA staff as I could then go 4 infal, 5 julianos TBS or Scathing, vMA staff, and 1x Kena. That would get me the good from infal and let me switch the subpar 5th peice for a nice spell power buff. I have been running 5 julians, 5 infal, 1x kenna on my nb. I realize this is not exactly best in slot but really I don't think it gives up much to the fact that I think a few other sets would be slightly better. I have not really noticed any dps change doing this from my old 5x julianos, 3x will power 1x kenna, 2x torougues pact set and this has been a great disappointment especially compared to how awesome VO has felt on my stam toons. I'm sure if I still had ninglenelle I would notice some difference but fight to fight variance is such that differences must be large and it failed to be big enough making me quite sad as I felt the previous sets were far from optimal. In a different world, with a living ninglenele, and my toons with the sets including jewelry on pts where I could spend gold mats like a fiend I would certainly test it all completely but in this world, where making things gold costs some 50k each, pts doesn't give you jewelry, and we have no simple, reliable, and fast dps test back of the envelope calculations will have to accompany my somewhat limited comparison using the sets that I have. That comparison was very uninspiring and so were the calculations. So I *** because ZOS doesn't actually believe in letting me conveniently test and I think I should be inspired like I easily was when I put VO on my stam toons.

On another note. I just saw the first VAA clear from a mag sorcs standpoint who was at 42k at the 8 min mark. Given I was only in the mid 20's on our attempts tonight I clearly do need to LTP and you are welcome to tell me that. As for lying. I am giving the best information I have. It is better than most but certainly not all.

Erraln · August 2016

You realize, don't you, that every set in the game that says 'when heavy attacking, do ____' behaves this way with channeled heavy attacks? If you're going to try to call a game-wide mechanic an exploit, see if the example you're using is unique first. Might as well call Gossamer a cheese set because people can dodge after Major Evade goes off and get 4s of total invuln

Oh, and Shock heavy attacks have four ticks, not three. You're thinking of Restoration attacks.

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

You sir appear to be out of touch with reality. You call builds exploity that simply take advantage of existing mechanics in the game and are only really good given the particular sets. For example the 25k ticks of my splash damage are only there because of infal tbs and a VMA staff. Withour these it would be bad. Saying that unbuffed mag users top out at 22k is just plain false, no I'm not telling you to LTP, your playstyle and choices are your own. I'm telling you to stop telling lies. Since 25k unbuffed on bloodspawn is a fear very easy to achieve. And 30k+ is doable if you really practice your rotation. In my guild there is an entrance test which requires you to pull 25k unbuffed....I have yet to have a recruit fail it...also even without warhorn this meta works just fine, your dps may not be 35k. It may be 32k, but it will definitely be above 30.

Your post specifically attacks this set and while I do not mind you thinking this. I don't want the rest of the community to fall victim to misinformation. Infal is good regardless of whether you're solo questing doing 4 man's or trials, it's simply BiS for most PvE setups as a 3,4 or a 5 piece set (depending on your needs). Infal is what allowed my sorc and DK to up their DPS in vMoL by 5k+.

As for a build being exploity for taking advantage of existing mechanics of the game. Well, do you think salvation is supposed to give you 100k weapon damage when you go wherewolf? I am told it currently does this. Sets don't always work how there supposed to. Witness the long time you could use TBS to get you many extra mundus permanently or you know who's old set that made him near invincible in PVP for a year and a half. I kind of doubt the intention of this was to proc 3x times during one channeled heavy attack. I agree with you that to make that build work and be interesting it must be so. I even agree that it is not all that OP and a nice change to have something other than a flame staff on top but I doubt it was intended.

As for 22k, that was unbuffed on nSO serpent not squishy mister bloodspawn. Amazingly the numbers were basically the same for my mag NB and mag Templar in consecutive farm runs. Bloodspawn is really a nice way to make oneself feel good but I have found nSO serpent dps to translate well to other bosses in trials whereas bloodspawn dps is just very rosy. Also, I occasionally jump in on nSO farm runs which often are unbuffed giving me a nice dps test without having to do something special. I agree that bloodspawn is very easy to do 25k on unbuffed. Wouldn't it be nice if we had a dps dummy to test dps on and have an easy universal comparison? I should probably go run a test on bloodspawn to see what I am currently doing on that. Certainly, last time I tested 25k was not very hard. Unfortunately, he is not a very convenient dps test. I'm more leaning in the direction of the brazier guy in VSO as dying to one trash pull is very much faster than running the first third of spindle and I expect that guy is probably resistant enough to be meaningful.

I am amazed you see an increase with infal of 5k in VMol. I would probably like it better if I had a vMA staff as I could then go 4 infal, 5 julianos TBS or Scathing, vMA staff, and 1x Kena. That would get me the good from infal and let me switch the subpar 5th peice for a nice spell power buff. I have been running 5 julians, 5 infal, 1x kenna on my nb. I realize this is not exactly best in slot but really I don't think it gives up much to the fact that I think a few other sets would be slightly better. I have not really noticed any dps change doing this from my old 5x julianos, 3x will power 1x kenna, 2x torougues pact set and this has been a great disappointment especially compared to how awesome VO has felt on my stam toons. I'm sure if I still had ninglenelle I would notice some difference but fight to fight variance is such that differences must be large and it failed to be big enough making me quite sad as I felt the previous sets were far from optimal. In a different world, with a living ninglenele, and my toons with the sets including jewelry on pts where I could spend gold mats like a fiend I would certainly test it all completely but in this world, where making things gold costs some 50k each, pts doesn't give you jewelry, and we have no simple, reliable, and fast dps test back of the envelope calculations will have to accompany my somewhat limited comparison using the sets that I have. That comparison was very uninspiring and so were the calculations. So I *** because ZOS doesn't actually believe in letting me conveniently test and I think I should be inspired like I easily was when I put VO on my stam toons.

On another note. I just saw the first VAA clear from a mag sorcs standpoint who was at 42k at the 8 min mark. Given I was only in the mid 20's on our attempts tonight I clearly do need to LTP and you are welcome to tell me that. As for lying. I am giving the best information I have. It is better than most but certainly not all.

1. Comparing the salvation bug which gives you an incorrect weapon damage amount, to a lightning staff heavy is illogical. One is a clear bug and the other one is simply executing what it is supposed to. By what logic do you think that it is exploity? It doesn't do crazy single target damage, it is specifically tuned to deal the most damage in AoE. It has been out for months without any indication from the destro that there is anything wrong with this. In fact I think this may have been a specific intention on their part considering how much they have been nerfing regen lately. There is absolutely zero indication that this was not intended.
2. You talk about serpent nSO. We used to farm serpent nSO a long long time ago. The fight is amazing to test dps because it is long and there are zero mechanics that need to be followed, since it's a straight stack and burn. Given the nature of that fight my personal best on a templar was 38k for that fight, with an average of 35k. While the others I raided with may not have had the same results, they were consistently hitting 30k. Keep in mind that we did pug for these runs a lot, so it was by no means an elite group of players. I maintain that 22k on a magicka user is not accurate.
3. Infal on a sword user offers anew improvement over 3 willpower with torugs gear choice, but you aren't fully utilizing it's potential, since you aren't using a staff, this means that NB and Templars benefit the least from it, but yet benefit from.it non the less. The 6.28% crit buff is nice.
4. As I said before I am not telling you to L2P. I'm not here to attack your ability as a player. By making a lengthy post and doing a deep analysis on a set you are putting yourself into a pundit position. I have no problem with this if the nature of the information you provide is accurate, however through hours and hours of testing and calculating I can assure you that your assessment is incorrect.
5. On another note if you are playing NA PC and you would like any help in getting to a point where you can comfortably pull over 30k as a magicka user don't hesitate to whisper me in game. @Nosferratuzod

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

Erraln wrote: »

You realize, don't you, that every set in the game that says 'when heavy attacking, do ____' behaves this way with channeled heavy attacks? If you're going to try to call a game-wide mechanic an exploit, see if the example you're using is unique first. Might as well call Gossamer a cheese set because people can dodge after Major Evade goes off and get 4s of total invuln

Oh, and Shock heavy attacks have four ticks, not three. You're thinking of Restoration attacks.

To be fair it's 3 ticks and a pulse tick. The difference must be made, because while the 3 staff ticks benefit from all 3 ele expert/staff expert and Thaum, pulse does not. But yeah this is definitely a legit way to use the staff.

kaithuzar · August 2016

@f047ys3v3n Good job on testing & finding all of that information & thank you for posting!
What I'm doing may not be optimal, but for PVP I've decided to use worm cult jewelry & weapons because in theory it's similar to the way Arch Mage use to be ie... a seducer set with spell dmg, but actually the extra 4% healing imo is OP for PVP.
However, I believe that I've had sustain issues even as a magic nb in PVE before so I may run this in PVE as well so something like:
5x julianos
5x worm cult
& either 1 kena & 1 blood spawn or 2 torugs

I think traditionally the healers have been running spell power cure & worm cult, but in a situation where someone doesn't have it I feel it's a decent setup. Also maybe it could work for VMA?

clocksstoppe · August 2016

There is no way IA is BiS on any dd. This is simply because if you're going to talk about BiS, you have to assume everyone has BiS gear (otherwise you're just weakening yourself to make up for others). So the 8% damage bonus effect from IA will be maintained by the healer. With that out of the way, IA is not great. It's decent, but not BiS material.

code65536 · August 2016

clocksstoppe wrote: »

There is no way IA is BiS on any dd. This is simply because if you're going to talk about BiS, you have to assume everyone has BiS gear (otherwise you're just weakening yourself to make up for others). So the 8% damage bonus effect from IA will be maintained by the healer. With that out of the way, IA is not great. It's decent, but not BiS material.

One healer will be running SPC+Worm. If you're running a second healer, they'll have SPC and a choice between Infal, Twlight, or Gossamer. You might not have a second healer. The second healer, if you have one, might not be wearing Infallible. And if they were wearing Infallible, there's no guarantee that, when things get hectic, they'll be able to apply the debuff, as they'll likely be too busy with other things.

Anyway, this is really a matter of semantic quibbling. Is NMG BiS? It's not if someone else in the group is already running it.

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

clocksstoppe wrote: »

There is no way IA is BiS on any dd. This is simply because if you're going to talk about BiS, you have to assume everyone has BiS gear (otherwise you're just weakening yourself to make up for others). So the 8% damage bonus effect from IA will be maintained by the healer. With that out of the way, IA is not great. It's decent, but not BiS material.

No healer should be runnign IA....a DD should be running it..

Oompuh · August 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

There is no way IA is BiS on any dd. This is simply because if you're going to talk about BiS, you have to assume everyone has BiS gear (otherwise you're just weakening yourself to make up for others). So the 8% damage bonus effect from IA will be maintained by the healer. With that out of the way, IA is not great. It's decent, but not BiS material.

No healer should be runnign IA....a DD should be running it..

Every healer I've ever ran Trials with, one of them is wearing Aether and the other WC. I thought it was bis for 1 of them

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

Oompuh wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

There is no way IA is BiS on any dd. This is simply because if you're going to talk about BiS, you have to assume everyone has BiS gear (otherwise you're just weakening yourself to make up for others). So the 8% damage bonus effect from IA will be maintained by the healer. With that out of the way, IA is not great. It's decent, but not BiS material.

No healer should be runnign IA....a DD should be running it..

Every healer I've ever ran Trials with, one of them is wearing Aether and the other WC. I thought it was bis for 1 of them

1 healer runs SPC/Wormcult, the other runs SPC/Gossamer. IA on a healer is wasted since this set is great for Aoe on a lightning staff. A healer wont be able to debuff the boss and every add in the room, while a dps can...

code65536 · August 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

1 healer runs SPC/Wormcult, the other runs SPC/Gossamer.

A bit off-topic, but have you had a chance to try Gossamer in a trial? We had SPC+Worm and SPC+Goss setup in vSO the other day, and it was quite rare to see than one person with the Major Evasion buff. The proc rate and uptime was disappointing.

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

code65536 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

1 healer runs SPC/Wormcult, the other runs SPC/Gossamer.

A bit off-topic, but have you had a chance to try Gossamer in a trial? We had SPC+Worm and SPC+Goss setup in vSO the other day, and it was quite rare to see than one person with the Major Evasion buff. The proc rate and uptime was disappointing.

The uptime is 100%, up to 6 players, there is a caveat though for it to proc your health must be missing, meaning if the heals are not actually healing you, you wont be able to proc it.

SienneYviete · August 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

1 healer runs SPC/Wormcult, the other runs SPC/Gossamer.

A bit off-topic, but have you had a chance to try Gossamer in a trial? We had SPC+Worm and SPC+Goss setup in vSO the other day, and it was quite rare to see than one person with the Major Evasion buff. The proc rate and uptime was disappointing.

The uptime is 100%, up to 6 players, there is a caveat though for it to proc your health must be missing, meaning if the heals are not actually healing you, you wont be able to proc it.

I noticed that you had to actually be missing health for Gossamer to work, in terms of trials with the amount of constant damage being thrown around I could definitely see Gossamer being bis but in four mans it seems as though it would be counter intuitive to the overhealing we use to proc SPC. Back on topic I definitely wouldn't be running Infall while healing as there are as stated better 5 piece sets and generally in trial groups there's always a sorc or dk running around heavy attacking all the things for the invul debuff, the dps from infall on a sorc or dk with tbs is just crazy.

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2016

SienneYviete wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

1 healer runs SPC/Wormcult, the other runs SPC/Gossamer.

A bit off-topic, but have you had a chance to try Gossamer in a trial? We had SPC+Worm and SPC+Goss setup in vSO the other day, and it was quite rare to see than one person with the Major Evasion buff. The proc rate and uptime was disappointing.

The uptime is 100%, up to 6 players, there is a caveat though for it to proc your health must be missing, meaning if the heals are not actually healing you, you wont be able to proc it.

I noticed that you had to actually be missing health for Gossamer to work, in terms of trials with the amount of constant damage being thrown around I could definitely see Gossamer being bis but in four mans it seems as though it would be counter intuitive to the overhealing we use to proc SPC. Back on topic I definitely wouldn't be running Infall while healing as there are as stated better 5 piece sets and generally in trial groups there's always a sorc or dk running around heavy attacking all the things for the invul debuff, the dps from infall on a sorc or dk with tbs is just crazy.

Yup:)