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Lets Balance Radiant Destruction
Nifty2g
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Yes this thread is obviously going to fester the tears of all the Templars around Tamriel and create a large ball of salt to defend the skill, but let's be real -- Radiant Destruction is incredibly over powered and not currently balanced, it is enabling toxic game play and unthoughtful play styles.
I'll start off by saying yes this skill has a lot of counters, you can purge, you can interrupt it and what not, overall that is not the problem, the problem is the play style this skill provokes, to sit back while some guy is fighting lets say 2 or 3 people, to have a Templar or two sitting in the back just casting Radiant Destruction because that is the only skill they have on their bar and just holding it on him or her while the damage goes up and up as the target gets low, and that person usually always has an inevitable death. We have seen it on streams time and time again, it's a toxic playstyle, it's unthoughtful and it's just provoking such a terrible game design.
Now before the Templar tears get riled up, here are my thoughts on the skill. Yes Templars need an execute, you can't take the execute away or nerf the damage it does otherwise the class is going to be too weak, but what I want is to stop the horrible mentality the skill is giving, and how strong it is.
The skill is in need of an internal cooldown; the player can't recast the skill within .5 seconds or 1 second. Doing this will stop the whole beam spamming, and it will reduce the amount of beams a target will have on them at one time (unless of course Templars communicate in the group, and that in itself is promoting a nice healthy thoughtful game play). Including an ICD to the skill will not break it, but reduce how much spam it gives. I believe because the amount of damage it actually gives having a cooldown on it will make up for that and it will also make the Templar think more and use it a lot more appropriately and it will be put in line will all the other executes without having to reduce the damage it actually does.
And not that many care, but this change would be good for PvE as it allows you to want to weave during your casts so you can get some spell damage procs from your swords.
@Wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler
That's all I have to say, and yes being in PvP for the past week, I can finally see how terribly balanced the skill is. 1 or 2 are fine to handle but more often than not you are faced with about 4 or 5 beams at once, there is no counter to that, it desyncs your health and as soon as you hit 40% health you are dead. There is counters I know, but you are forced to spec in a way you should not be forced to spec to deal with that crap.
That's all I have to say. Balance it, don't damage nerf it.
EDIT: Actually it wont hurt pve at all, you just put all your dots down while you are on cooldown. And it fixes beam spam in Cyrodill
Win/Win
Edited by Nifty2g on July 8, 2016 12:52PM I'll start off by saying yes this skill has a lot of counters, you can purge, you can interrupt it and what not, overall that is not the problem, the problem is the play style this skill provokes, to sit back while some guy is fighting lets say 2 or 3 people, to have a Templar or two sitting in the back just casting Radiant Destruction because that is the only skill they have on their bar and just holding it on him or her while the damage goes up and up as the target gets low, and that person usually always has an inevitable death. We have seen it on streams time and time again, it's a toxic playstyle, it's unthoughtful and it's just provoking such a terrible game design.
Now before the Templar tears get riled up, here are my thoughts on the skill. Yes Templars need an execute, you can't take the execute away or nerf the damage it does otherwise the class is going to be too weak, but what I want is to stop the horrible mentality the skill is giving, and how strong it is.
The skill is in need of an internal cooldown; the player can't recast the skill within .5 seconds or 1 second. Doing this will stop the whole beam spamming, and it will reduce the amount of beams a target will have on them at one time (unless of course Templars communicate in the group, and that in itself is promoting a nice healthy thoughtful game play). Including an ICD to the skill will not break it, but reduce how much spam it gives. I believe because the amount of damage it actually gives having a cooldown on it will make up for that and it will also make the Templar think more and use it a lot more appropriately and it will be put in line will all the other executes without having to reduce the damage it actually does.
And not that many care, but this change would be good for PvE as it allows you to want to weave during your casts so you can get some spell damage procs from your swords.
@Wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler
That's all I have to say, and yes being in PvP for the past week, I can finally see how terribly balanced the skill is. 1 or 2 are fine to handle but more often than not you are faced with about 4 or 5 beams at once, there is no counter to that, it desyncs your health and as soon as you hit 40% health you are dead. There is counters I know, but you are forced to spec in a way you should not be forced to spec to deal with that crap.
That's all I have to say. Balance it, don't damage nerf it.
EDIT: Actually it wont hurt pve at all, you just put all your dots down while you are on cooldown. And it fixes beam spam in Cyrodill
Win/Win
product of my own destruction
#MOREORBS
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Sallington✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Just start by making it dodgeable, and take it from there.
Or give it Dark Flare's cast time, and make Dark Flare instant cast (or have a proc like Frags)
Edited by Sallington on July 8, 2016 12:32PMDaggerfall Covenant
Sallington - Templar - Stormproof - Prefect II
Cobham - Sorcerer - Stormproof - First Sergeant II
Shallington - NightBlade - Lieutenant |
Balmorah - Templar - Sergeant ||4 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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A cast time I think is too much, an execute should be instant damaging otherwise there's no point to call it an execute, the target will just heal back to full.Sallington wrote: »Just start by making it dodgeable, and take it from there.
Or give it Dark Flare's cast time, and make Dark Flare instant cast (or have a proc like Frags)
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Robbmrp✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since your talking about an execute, why not have them all with similar mechanics. Zenimax could update all Execute Skills so that they are an instant cast as well as only give the execute bonus at 20% or below. If the skill is used on a player above 20% health then it should do damage but nothing close to an execute level. This way any execute skill that's used, works the same way. It will eliminate complaints about this skill being too OP or that skill needs work.
They are an execute after all, using it on someone with a lot of health should do minimal damage. They all need to be dodgeable as well.NA Server - Kildair3 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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Honestly, with it being a damage nerf or anything else like that, it really hits templars pretty hard in their dps and will nerf them shockingly bad.Since your talking about an execute, why not have them all with similar mechanics. Zenimax could update all Execute Skills so that they are an instant cast as well as only give the execute bonus at 20% or below. If the skill is used on a player above 20% health then it should do damage but nothing close to an execute level. This way any execute skill that's used, works the same way. It will eliminate complaints about this skill being too OP or that skill needs work.
They are an execute after all, using it on someone with a lot of health should do minimal damage. They all need to be dodgeable as well.
I don't agree with making it dodgeable after thinking about it, stamina class can dodge far too much and it's just too much.
Plus every execute has someone unique about how it works, I like the system they have rather than making all executes the same.
Nightblade is instant and fast.
Sorcerer is burst, it explodes at low health, it's like a time bomb in a way.
Templar is a beam that deals ticks that get stronger.
If you make beam instant you'd have to rework the whole skill and it would be the same as nightblades, but the most balancing thing without breaking the skill and class to cripple them would be to add an ICD to balance out the amount of damage it can do when multiple are casted.Edited by Nifty2g on July 8, 2016 1:21PM#MOREORBS1 -
gamerguy757✭✭✭✭✭The problem is that it is a crazy strong execute. Hell, I've never had a Snipe, Endless Fury or Executioner. I've never even had an Overload hit me for as strong as Radiant Destruction.1 -
Anazasi✭✭✭✭✭
✭I would be happy if they would just stop spamming it when i'm at full health. Of course when they do it makes it very easy to find them and kill them. Now if they could just fix those gap closers so i could do it faster.
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Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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Radiant shows up in your death recap as a channel, it shows how much damage every tick did rather than each tick.gamerguy757 wrote: »The problem is that it is a crazy strong execute. Hell, I've never had a Snipe, Endless Fury or Executioner. I've never even had an Overload hit me for as strong as Radiant Destruction.
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Taylor_MB✭✭✭✭✭
✭My 2nd toon is a Templar and I'll freely admit RD is overpowered. I do think however you are over complicating the fix.
1) Lower execute range to 25% (change 2H while you are at it).
2) Get rid off the morph that increases power based on current magicka pool.
I don't believe damage needs to be changed or anything overly complicated. 25% is a reasonable execute range and it does not need an additional damage multiplier on top of the standard (up to) 300%.PvP Defensive Set Comparison
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Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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Changing to 25% hurts pve too much, and lets be real when dealing with changes like so, you need to think about both sides.My 2nd toon is a Templar and I'll freely admit RD is overpowered. I do think however you are over complicating the fix.
1) Lower execute range to 25% (change 2H while you are at it).
2) Get rid off the morph that increases power based on current magicka pool.
I don't believe damage needs to be changed or anything overly complicated. 25% is a reasonable execute range and it does not need an additional damage multiplier on top of the standard (up to) 300%.
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Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Range needs to be 20m or less.
Execute should be for <25%, like every other "execute" in the game.Edited by Ishammael on July 8, 2016 1:29PM3 -
nordsavage✭✭✭✭✭More pvp whining that ends up hurting pve. Radiant Destruction is the least of what breaks pvp I can assure you.I didn't choose tank life, tank life chose me.7 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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I main a Templar in PvE, I can assure you, this change wont hurt it but would balance out PvP a lot betternordsavage wrote: »More pvp whining that ends up hurting pve. Radiant Destruction is the least of what breaks pvp I can assure you.
#MOREORBS4 -
RebornV3x✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Easy make Radiant Destruction proc at 25 or 20% bringing it in line with other executes there ZOS don't think to hard this ones free.Xbox One - NA GT: RebornV3x
I also play on PC from time to time but I just wanna be left alone on there so sorry.3 -
Robbmrp✭✭✭✭✭
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Honestly, with it being a damage nerf or anything else like that, it really hits templars pretty hard in their dps and will nerf them shockingly bad.Since your talking about an execute, why not have them all with similar mechanics. Zenimax could update all Execute Skills so that they are an instant cast as well as only give the execute bonus at 20% or below. If the skill is used on a player above 20% health then it should do damage but nothing close to an execute level. This way any execute skill that's used, works the same way. It will eliminate complaints about this skill being too OP or that skill needs work.
They are an execute after all, using it on someone with a lot of health should do minimal damage. They all need to be dodgeable as well.
I don't agree with making it dodgeable after thinking about it, stamina class can dodge far too much and it's just too much.
Plus every execute has someone unique about how it works, I like the system they have rather than making all executes the same.
Nightblade is instant and fast.
Sorcerer is burst, it explodes at low health, it's like a time bomb in a way.
Templar is a beam that deals ticks that get stronger.
If you make beam instant you'd have to rework the whole skill and it would be the same as nightblades, but the most balancing thing without breaking the skill and class to cripple them would be to add an ICD to balance out the amount of damage it can do when multiple are casted.
Here's a couple reasons why I'd rather it be an instant cast. With it being channeled it can be interrupted. If it's an instant cast it's harder to dodge and can't be interrupted as easily. While channeling, our movement is slowed hindering us while getting attacked from other players. With an instacast, it would help PVE more as it could be cast more often like Mages Wrath when the boss is at 20% or below.
Using RD in PVE on a boss with health higher than 30% health is just lazy DPS imo. I can get a much stronger hit from Dark Flare than just pressing RD over and over and over again on mobs with higher health.
The bottom line is I am all on board for making this skill better to use while not making to OP.NA Server - Kildair0 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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No, believe me you can't get higher hits from Dark Flare than RD in PvE lol. DF is trash for PvE.
Honestly, with it being a damage nerf or anything else like that, it really hits templars pretty hard in their dps and will nerf them shockingly bad.Since your talking about an execute, why not have them all with similar mechanics. Zenimax could update all Execute Skills so that they are an instant cast as well as only give the execute bonus at 20% or below. If the skill is used on a player above 20% health then it should do damage but nothing close to an execute level. This way any execute skill that's used, works the same way. It will eliminate complaints about this skill being too OP or that skill needs work.
They are an execute after all, using it on someone with a lot of health should do minimal damage. They all need to be dodgeable as well.
I don't agree with making it dodgeable after thinking about it, stamina class can dodge far too much and it's just too much.
Plus every execute has someone unique about how it works, I like the system they have rather than making all executes the same.
Nightblade is instant and fast.
Sorcerer is burst, it explodes at low health, it's like a time bomb in a way.
Templar is a beam that deals ticks that get stronger.
If you make beam instant you'd have to rework the whole skill and it would be the same as nightblades, but the most balancing thing without breaking the skill and class to cripple them would be to add an ICD to balance out the amount of damage it can do when multiple are casted.
Here's a couple reasons why I'd rather it be an instant cast. With it being channeled it can be interrupted. If it's an instant cast it's harder to dodge and can't be interrupted as easily. While channeling, our movement is slowed hindering us while getting attacked from other players. With an instacast, it would help PVE more as it could be cast more often like Mages Wrath when the boss is at 20% or below.
Using RD in PVE on a boss with health higher than 30% health is just lazy DPS imo. I can get a much stronger hit from Dark Flare than just pressing RD over and over and over again on mobs with higher health.
The bottom line is I am all on board for making this skill better to use while not making to OP.
Instant cast just means a total skill rework, don't think at this time they will do that.Edited by Nifty2g on July 8, 2016 1:39PM#MOREORBS0 -
nordsavage✭✭✭✭✭
I main a Templar in PvE, I can assure you, this change wont hurt it but would balance out PvP a lot betternordsavage wrote: »More pvp whining that ends up hurting pve. Radiant Destruction is the least of what breaks pvp I can assure you.
PvP in this game is fundamentally flawed. The tri faction mechanic as well as no system of auto balancing "teams" ensures uneven player counts. Not having any preset classes and equipment ensures imbalances between players. The lack of new play areas and stale goals has forced players to resort to AP farming, not playing objectives and cheating for "fun". I could go all day about how broken of a program ESO pvp is but it boils down to this. If you make changes to classes before fixing the real problems its just going to be a never ending cycle where the focus is left on classes instead of the AvA aspect where it sorely needs to be. Everytime something for pvp is changed pve always gets screwed.
Besides if you want to stand on a tower all day farming AP you deserve to get your face beamed off or sniped at.I didn't choose tank life, tank life chose me.1 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
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I main a Templar in PvE, I can assure you, this change wont hurt it but would balance out PvP a lot betternordsavage wrote: »More pvp whining that ends up hurting pve. Radiant Destruction is the least of what breaks pvp I can assure you.
But you don't really pvp.2 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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Sorry to break it to you, but promoting toxic playstyles is a real problem in PvP.nordsavage wrote: »
I main a Templar in PvE, I can assure you, this change wont hurt it but would balance out PvP a lot betternordsavage wrote: »More pvp whining that ends up hurting pve. Radiant Destruction is the least of what breaks pvp I can assure you.
PvP in this game is fundamentally flawed. The tri faction mechanic as well as no system of auto balancing "teams" ensures uneven player counts. Not having any preset classes and equipment ensures imbalances between players. The lack of new play areas and stale goals has forced players to resort to AP farming, not playing objectives and cheating for "fun". I could go all day about how broken of a program ESO pvp is but it boils down to this. If you make changes to classes before fixing the real problems its just going to be a never ending cycle where the focus is left on classes instead of the AvA aspect where it sorely needs to be. Everytime something for pvp is changed pve always gets screwed.
Besides if you want to stand on a tower all day farming AP you deserve to get your face beamed off or sniped at.
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Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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I've probably put about 20 days game time into PvP or a bit more, that really has nothing to do with the discussion. I can clearly see when something is so unbalanced
I main a Templar in PvE, I can assure you, this change wont hurt it but would balance out PvP a lot betternordsavage wrote: »More pvp whining that ends up hurting pve. Radiant Destruction is the least of what breaks pvp I can assure you.
But you don't really pvp.
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nordsavage✭✭✭✭✭
Sorry to break it to you, but promoting toxic playstyles is a real problem in PvP.nordsavage wrote: »
I main a Templar in PvE, I can assure you, this change wont hurt it but would balance out PvP a lot betternordsavage wrote: »More pvp whining that ends up hurting pve. Radiant Destruction is the least of what breaks pvp I can assure you.
PvP in this game is fundamentally flawed. The tri faction mechanic as well as no system of auto balancing "teams" ensures uneven player counts. Not having any preset classes and equipment ensures imbalances between players. The lack of new play areas and stale goals has forced players to resort to AP farming, not playing objectives and cheating for "fun". I could go all day about how broken of a program ESO pvp is but it boils down to this. If you make changes to classes before fixing the real problems its just going to be a never ending cycle where the focus is left on classes instead of the AvA aspect where it sorely needs to be. Everytime something for pvp is changed pve always gets screwed.
Besides if you want to stand on a tower all day farming AP you deserve to get your face beamed off or sniped at.
And you should know by now they do not know how to fine tune changes. They use to "Kid glove" it but now they just hack at the game with a cleaver and hope it does not fall apart more. That PvP will never be out of the toilet but at least we can still enjoy the PvE for a while.I didn't choose tank life, tank life chose me.0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Just to be clear, any change that happens at all (and I am of the belief it doesn't need a change...) needs to be PvP only. If you put a cool down on a templar execute of even a half second, you WILL see a dramatic loss in DPS compared to even other executes.
Secondly, I understand the frustration of having five beams on you, but literally any move x5 from half alive toons in Cyrodiil will be monsterous. Hell, 5 surprise attacks is 30k damage. 5 snipes is probably 40k damage. 5 molten whips, probably 20k. And most RD beams tick for only 3 or 4 k damage on an impen build until you hit execute range. (Roughly 25 to 30%)
If the move was amazing in 1v1 and could melt a person in two ticks, it would be overpowered. The only thing that is even remotely special about this ability is its range and it's undodgeability, which given the sheer power of stam builds at present seems fine. If you're close to the caster, you can interupt. If not, you can heal or break LOS. If you're facing five opponents in an open field, sorry but I'm struggling to find a way you would survive against a half competance enemy force with literally anything.
All this is coming from a templar....a stamina templar, lol.
Edit for usual phone derpinessEdited by DocFrost72 on July 8, 2016 2:01PM7 -
OdinForge✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭When the skill could be dodged, there was nothing wrong with it in the hands of a good player. But trying to justify beam with the idea that a Templar needs to rely on it versus dodge for a kill is ridiculous. It's just another excuse for the typical zergplar to crutch on a one button strategy, hiding behind a group instead of learning how to build better. You never hear people bitching about someone spamming executioner on them from 100% HP, it doesn't happen. The two executes cannot be compared, there is an inherent risk with being in melee range. Every day you hear it in streams, in TS and see it in chat, people bitching about beam spam.
You want to keep it undodgable, okay. Add the cooldown for PvP, without touching PvE.The Age of Wrobel.1 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I think cooldowns are bad in general in this game. However, make the internal cooldown PvP only and I don't care. Like the last time RD was made worthless in PvP, I can just stop using it and still do fine. Not using it is not an option in PvE. Templar PvE DPS needs no form of nerfing.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
KisoValley✭✭✭✭✭You can tell who spams jesus beam in this thread and who doesn't. One even claims he doesn't play it!
Anyway, fact of the matter is the fact it scales off magicka pool is what makes it so broken (alongside range, the fact that it executes you at 50% etc.).
I think both jesus beam and executioner should be changed to 25% or at least for jesus beam take away the *** as *** magicka pool scaling because it makes it deal stupid damage for an execute above execute range.
Anyone who claims it's fine is a tool btw.2 -
DKsUnite✭✭✭✭✭
✭just make it 15m like the NB execute.... if they wanna hit me for 15k then i want them to be next to meVyr Cor | Magicka Dragonknight | DC
Vir Cor | Stamina Dragonknight | DC
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Magicka Dragonknight: Vyr Cor | "A Dragon's Fury" | Magicka Dragonknight PvP
Stamina Dragonknight: Vir Cor | "Heathen" | Stamina Dragonknight PvP
Youtube: CorGaming2 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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you say L2P but really, it's the ones sitting in the back hitting 1 button for their day in Cyrodill. Those are the ones who need to L2P and stop with terrible game play.Oh fuxxake. Lol. L2P
I also agreejust make it 15m like the NB execute.... if they wanna hit me for 15k then i want them to be next to meEdited by Nifty2g on July 8, 2016 2:15PM#MOREORBS3 -
sluice✭✭✭✭Oh nice finally a thread on Jesus Beam!
PSN: sluiceqc (NA-PS4) CP: 551+
I strictly play on Daggerfall Covenant for when it comes to PvPDaggerfall Covenant
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maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
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I've probably put about 20 days game time into PvP or a bit more, that really has nothing to do with the discussion. I can clearly see when something is so unbalanced
I main a Templar in PvE, I can assure you, this change wont hurt it but would balance out PvP a lot betternordsavage wrote: »More pvp whining that ends up hurting pve. Radiant Destruction is the least of what breaks pvp I can assure you.
But you don't really pvp.
20 days?! And you really think you can see clearly? I beg to differ. Play pvp a bit more and get a bigger picture of what goes on. And till then, go back and read comments of experienced pvp Templars. There are differences of opinions, but the general consensus is that given our lack of mobility, the fact that a channel not only snares us, but leaves us open to interrupts, and that it is the only skill that hard counters shuffle/dodge spammers...it is working as intended. Heck, even the Devs have said that it is working as intended.
So yeah, your lack of experience as a pvp player has everything to do with this discussion. So why don't you go back and read what other Templars have said before you start a new thread.3