Veteran Maelstrom Arena Weapons in DB

Agency79 · May 2016

As of right now, the chance of getting a specific weapon/trait combo is at least twice as bad on the PTS as it is on the live server. The chance of getting a "good" weapon trait combo is about 50% worse on the PTS as well. This is because the pool of available traits on the weapons has been expanded far more than the number of desirable traits has.

This is going in the wrong direction, especially since the enchantments on these weapons are becoming relatively weak compared to the mega-buffed glyphs on PTS.

I have a thread buried on page 3-4 with my math behind these claims, along with some suggestions I'd like to see. The main one is to simply implement a token reward system and add add a vendor with every weapon and trait combo available. Score, arena completion, and round completion (on vet) would all affect the number of tokens awarded.

Iirc, my proposed reward scaling was like this:
10x 500k+ runs would yield enough tokens for a specific weapon
15x 400k runs
20x any run with a score
30x basic veteran mode completions (i.e, no score)
And finally 200x normal mode completions.

The weekly leaderboard reward would be your highest token-earning run x3.

I really don't care if it takes a token system to get what I want here (a kind of certainty that it is definitely rewarding for me to continue completing the arena and improving my times). It's just damn annoying that I've completed it over 60 times (with something like half a dozen weeklies), and I've only received 3 weapons that are better than any current gold set weapon with a carefully chosen trait and glyph. And I don't use any of those on my favorite builds.

Agency79 · May 2016

It just doesn't feel rewarding enough for the effort involved.

Being able to grind it out (with increased certainty) for the weapons I want for my builds would help.

Improving the vMSA-available sets would help.

hedna123b14_ESO · May 2016

Agency79 wrote: »

It just doesn't feel rewarding enough for the effort involved.

Being able to grind it out (with increased certainty) for the weapons I want for my builds would help.

Improving the vMSA-available sets would help.

So many design issues with not just this place, but the reason why it's so hard to get what you want. Stam users can use daggers and bow for PvE and 2h for PVP. That's 3 weapons that are useful. On the weapons you have 2 traits that can be useful since you can build around one or the other because of how flexible stam is with crit chance and penetration. While specific builds call for specific traits on specific items, you can build around different traits.

For Magicka everyone is only looking for 1 weapon, the fire staff (the resto staff can count as a second one, but it's for healers, not DPS, and isn't really all that necessary). The fire staff can also work with precise or sharpened depending on the build. That means that out of the entirety of weapon/ trait combinations magicka dps users are only looking for 2 combinations, compared to stamina's 14. Why is it that lightning and ice staves are made to be clearly inferior? Why are fire staves the only ones that offer best damage in the game? This is the bigger issue. I have a bunch of lightning and ice staves in good traits, but I will never use them because fire will always do better by a wide margin..

Agency79 · May 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Agency79 wrote: »

It just doesn't feel rewarding enough for the effort involved.

Being able to grind it out (with increased certainty) for the weapons I want for my builds would help.

Improving the vMSA-available sets would help.

So many design issues with not just this place, but the reason why it's so hard to get what you want. Stam users can use daggers and bow for PvE and 2h for PVP. That's 3 weapons that are useful. On the weapons you have 2 traits that can be useful since you can build around one or the other because of how flexible stam is with crit chance and penetration. While specific builds call for specific traits on specific items, you can build around different traits.

For Magicka everyone is only looking for 1 weapon, the fire staff (the resto staff can count as a second one, but it's for healers, not DPS, and isn't really all that necessary). The fire staff can also work with precise or sharpened depending on the build. That means that out of the entirety of weapon/ trait combinations magicka dps users are only looking for 2 combinations, compared to stamina's 14. Why is it that lightning and ice staves are made to be clearly inferior? Why are fire staves the only ones that offer best damage in the game? This is the bigger issue. I have a bunch of lightning and ice staves in good traits, but I will never use them because fire will always do better by a wide margin..

Yep, it's all about that fire desto staff - and only sharpened or precise will do. I have actually gotten 5 gold staves from the weekly, but neither sharpened lightning nor sharpened ice outperforms a non-set nirnhoned inferno for dps.

And the new nirnhoned trait that's going to be a possible trait on vMA weapons is inferior to precise and sharpened for PVE dps.

frozywozy · May 2016

I could care less about the loot system. What I really hope is that next time they make a solo dungeon, they make it so people who stay at max range stacking shields takes an additional 200% damage.

Artis · May 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I want to hear you talk MOARR!

Haha soon. You know how to find me.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Why is it that lightning and ice staves are made to be clearly inferior? Why are fire staves the only ones that offer best damage in the game?

This has to be discussed in a separate thread and commented on by ZOS. It really is a good question. I can see an ice staff being used in PvP with all that CC, but whats' the point of a lightning staff? Is that debuff that strong? Doesn't seem so.

Anyways, just came across this article and realized that it reminded me of this topic lol

You’ve all heard the trope: Children today grow up believing it’s their effort that matters. -
https://chroniclevitae.com/news/908-dear-student-no-i-won-t-change-the-grade-you-deserve

However, it's the result that matters usually. And luck is a part of it too sometimes

But we are a generation of participation trophies

where you get something guaranteed just because of the effort. When there are so many people who put tons of effort but their efforts don't pay off and/or eventually they go bankrupt

code65536 · May 2016

Artis wrote: »

However, it's the result that matters usually.

Your version of the analogy is flawed.

I put effort in on a test. And failed. I did not get--nor did I deserve--a good grade.

I put effort in on a test. And aced the test. But the teacher then rolled a pair of dice to determine if I get an "A" or an "F". She gave me an F.

If someone puts in hours and hours of effort but can't beat vMA--or if they can't beat it consistently--then they don't deserve the reward. And that's fine--none of us want to change that.

If someone puts in hours and hours of effort and clears vMA hundreds of times--they've clearly passed the test. Now they just need to whack some in sense into that dice-rolling teacher and teach her what "fairness" means.

This isn't--and never was--about giving people participation trophies despite losing the game. This is about people who won the soccer tournament and then get shafted out of their trophy by an arbitrary dice roll.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Why is it that lightning and ice staves are made to be clearly inferior? Why are fire staves the only ones that offer best damage in the game?

I use my precise Lightning staff on my sorc. That 5% sorc passive to all shock damage, plus the disintegration chance (particularly in AoE trash pulls) makes it worthwhile. That, and it's just too much of a hassle to have my sorc share a staff with my other toons.

hedna123b14_ESO · May 2016

Artis wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I want to hear you talk MOARR!

Haha soon. You know how to find me.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Why is it that lightning and ice staves are made to be clearly inferior? Why are fire staves the only ones that offer best damage in the game?

This has to be discussed in a separate thread and commented on by ZOS. It really is a good question. I can see an ice staff being used in PvP with all that CC, but whats' the point of a lightning staff? Is that debuff that strong? Doesn't seem so.

Anyways, just came across this article and realized that it reminded me of this topic lol

You’ve all heard the trope: Children today grow up believing it’s their effort that matters. -
https://chroniclevitae.com/news/908-dear-student-no-i-won-t-change-the-grade-you-deserve

However, it's the result that matters usually. And luck is a part of it too sometimes But we are a generation of participation trophies where you get something guaranteed just because of the effort. When there are so many people who put tons of effort but their efforts don't pay off and/or eventually they go bankrupt

While I agree with these points, I'll play Devils advocate. The exponential tial growth of the human population actually dilutes the ability of an individual to be exceptional, since the invention of novel ways to excel lags behind population growth. This forces the current population into an ever increasing competition for achievements. The barrier for entry into the "special" category thus becomes higher and higher leaving many behind. This puts 2 choices in front of an individual- accept that he is not exceptional or work harder. The issue is that since the barrier keeps rising. Future generations have to work harder than those that came before them. This is why certain doctors now study for over a decade before assuming the full responsibilities of their job - partly because of an ever expanding knowledge base, andivines partly because the requirements keep rising. While the requirements for achievement keep rising, the human capacity to accomplish tasks doesn't evolve at a pace to keep up with these requirements. This promotes a culture with a dichotomy of overworked individuals that are living half of their life in the office and the other side - the people who have given up on overcoming these barriers and living entitled lives.

hedna123b14_ESO · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

However, it's the result that matters usually.

Your version of the analogy is flawed.

I put effort in on a test. And failed. I did not get--nor did I deserve--a good grade.

I put effort in on a test. And aced the test. But the teacher then rolled a pair of dice to determine if I get an "A" or an "F". She gave me an F.

If someone puts in hours and hours of effort but can't beat vMA--or if they can't beat it consistently--then they don't deserve the reward. And that's fine--none of us want to change that.

If someone puts in hours and hours of effort and clears vMA hundreds of times--they've clearly passed the test. Now they just need to whack some in sense into that dice-rolling teacher and teach her what "fairness" means.

This isn't--and never was--about giving people participation trophies despite losing the game. This is about people who won the soccer tournament and then get shafted out of their trophy by an arbitrary dice roll.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Why is it that lightning and ice staves are made to be clearly inferior? Why are fire staves the only ones that offer best damage in the game?

I use my precise Lightning staff on my sorc. That 5% sorc passive to all shock damage, plus the disintegration chance (particularly in AoE trash pulls) makes it worthwhile. That, and it's just too much of a hassle to have my sorc share a staff with my other toons.

But how will I medium weave?!?!?!?!

LegendaryArcher · May 2016

I'm not quite sure why people have been discussing "increase in DPS in %", since the increase in damage from a Maelstrom weapon is usually a flat number. So the more DPS you pull, the less increase it is. However, pulling 30k, which is about the maximum (single target) for the greatest players out there in raids, the DPS increase is somewhere around 3k (flat value). So, if you have bad luck, you will still have 26k with a Maelstrom staff instead of 23k etc.

We can discuss "fairness" all we want. Fact is: If I keep getting sh*t on flawless runs while hundreds of others get their staff within their first few runs, and there is no guarantee I will ever get my weapon, I get discouraged. If the game treats me like sh*t, while treating others much better, no matter how much I like the universe/setting, I will not play it and I will not spend money on it. This is natural behavior, not just human. I know many that have quit because of it, and only because of it. And looking at the new patch notes, once DB comes out, I'll be proud to join their ranks.

ZOS has designed their game to frustrate a certain percentage of players. Sadly, I am one of them. I guess they want random people to regularly quit.

Riggsy · May 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

I could care less about the loot system. What I really hope is that next time they make a solo dungeon, they make it so people who stay at max range stacking shields takes an additional 200% damage.

Amen

InfaM · May 2016

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

We can discuss "fairness" all we want. Fact is: If I keep getting sh*t on flawless runs while hundreds of others get their staff within their first few runs, and there is no guarantee I will ever get my weapon, I get discouraged. If the game treats me like sh*t, while treating others much better, no matter how much I like the universe/setting, I will not play it and I will not spend money on it. This is natural behavior, not just human. I know many that have quit because of it, and only because of it. And looking at the new patch notes, once DB comes out, I'll be proud to join their ranks.

ZOS has designed their game to frustrate a certain percentage of players. Sadly, I am one of them. I guess they want random people to regularly quit.

Totally agree with this , they don't reward score (my best is 552k+) they don't rewards run (I've done 100+ runs atm) , they reward lucK (I have ??? luck ?) can't even put a number on that, so someone can do a 100 score on his first run and get it while I'll be doing 550k+ on my 200th runs and still not have it, I'm not even jealous of that guy good for him, I'm just pissed of my situation , they introduced it like a hard trial with challenge and rewards that are supposed to be worth the challenge, but in fact it's just a *** gambling.

And it sure is *** frustrating and annoying for people that aim for the weapons and put the effort of running it multiple times to end up with useless rewards run after run, for my part it will probably be the reason that will makes me quit the game at some point because there's nothing that guarantee me that I'll have my weapons before I'm too pissed/bored of running it for nothing.

Artis · May 2016

Lol all of that is already replied to in that link.

"I know that it is unfair that some students spend no time at all on schoolwork and get A’s while others struggle and barely scrape C’s. I suggest you quickly cry a river, build a bridge and get over it. In the meantime, reflect on whether you want other students graded based on how hard they try. "

Too bad you put so much effort and get C's instead of acing the test even though you think you are haha. And someone who will only run it once will get an A and his weapon.

Such is life. The reward is not proportional to effort. In games, where loot is usually random, it's closer to quantum mechanics - you don't know the state of a particle until you measure it

So yeah not everything is deterministic in nature. Don't rationalize your requests with nature or RL.

Derra · May 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

I could care less about the loot system. What I really hope is that next time they make a solo dungeon, they make it so people who stay at max range stacking shields takes an additional 200% damage.

What´s the difference to max range spamming selfhealattack or meleerange spamming selfhealattack.

The only thing different from magblade to magsorc to magplar for me is time invested. For NB it´s a little slower because i´m too lazy to use optimal pve sets as they´re on my sorc.
On my templar i´m bosmer so i miss quite a bit of dmg and regen aswell as only using v15 kagrenac in purple.

There´s hardly any difference in difficulty for all three of them for me.

code65536 · May 2016

Artis wrote: »

Lol all of that is already replied to in that link.

"I know that it is unfair that some students spend no time at all on schoolwork and get A’s while others struggle and barely scrape C’s. I suggest you quickly cry a river, build a bridge and get over it. In the meantime, reflect on whether you want other students graded based on how hard they try. "

Too bad you put so much effort and get C's instead of acing the test even though you think you are haha. And someone who will only run it once will get an A and his weapon.

Such is life. The reward is not proportional to effort. In games, where loot is usually random, it's closer to quantum mechanics - you don't know the state of a particle until you measure it So yeah not everything is deterministic in nature. Don't rationalize your requests with nature or RL.

Sigh. Let's drop "effort" since it's clearly become a red herring.

People who get an A in school with almost no effort (me) do so because we're naturally gifted, not because of luck. Similarly, some people can get Flawless in vMA in far fewer tries than others because they're just naturally better at gaming.

Success is a combination of effort and talent. Effort does not guarantee success. Nor does talent. So let's stop talking "effort" and talk "merit" (which is the combination of effort and talent).

The RNG system that you are so in love with is more akin to a kid taking a series of tests (running vMA) and getting an A (500K), B (400K), C (300K), D (under 300K or no score), or F (failing to beat it). And then the school decides if the kid makes the Honor Roll not based on the scores from his tests, but on a coin flip. Alice there who got A's on all her tests got Tails. No Honor Roll for her! Bobby got a bunch of C's and a couple of B's got Heads and he gets on the Honor Roll. Charlie took one test, failed it with an F, retook it, and barely scraped out with a D. But he got Heads too. Go Charlie!

In what universe would a system like that be fair? If I were a parent, I'd be trying to get that principal fired.

hedna123b14_ESO · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Lol all of that is already replied to in that link.

"I know that it is unfair that some students spend no time at all on schoolwork and get A’s while others struggle and barely scrape C’s. I suggest you quickly cry a river, build a bridge and get over it. In the meantime, reflect on whether you want other students graded based on how hard they try. "

Too bad you put so much effort and get C's instead of acing the test even though you think you are haha. And someone who will only run it once will get an A and his weapon.

Such is life. The reward is not proportional to effort. In games, where loot is usually random, it's closer to quantum mechanics - you don't know the state of a particle until you measure it So yeah not everything is deterministic in nature. Don't rationalize your requests with nature or RL.

Sigh. Let's drop "effort" since it's clearly become a red herring.

People who get an A in school with almost no effort (me) do so because we're naturally gifted, not because of luck. Similarly, some people can get Flawless in vMA in far fewer tries than others because they're just naturally better at gaming.

Success is a combination of effort and talent. Effort does not guarantee success. Nor does talent. So let's stop talking "effort" and talk "merit" (which is the combination of effort and talent).

The RNG system that you are so in love with is more akin to a kid taking a series of tests (running vMA) and getting an A (500K), B (400K), C (300K), D (under 300K or no score), or F (failing to beat it). And then the school decides if the kid makes the Honor Roll not based on the scores from his tests, but on a coin flip. Alice there who got A's on all her tests got Tails. No Honor Roll for her! Bobby got a bunch of C's and a couple of B's got Heads and he gets on the Honor Roll. Charlie took one test, failed it with an F, retook it, and barely scraped out with a D. But he got Heads too. Go Charlie!

In what universe would a system like that be fair? If I were a parent, I'd be trying to get that principal fired.

I got to say Artis, code articulated the point better than I did in all of my posts..this is pretty bulletproof...

LegendaryArcher · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

People who get an A in school with almost no effort (me) do so because we're naturally gifted, not because of luck. Similarly, some people can get Flawless in vMA in far fewer tries than others because they're just naturally better at gaming.

I would even go further and say that all the "gifted" assumptions is pure speculation. I've seen kids bashing their heads against the walls at the age of 5, I've seen others run around the street and shout nonsense at the same age, and I've seen others trying to understand logical structures at the age of 5, being interested in astronomy. Others are able to quote the Bible or the Quran at that age, but are brain-wise far away from any logical connections.

Before I went to school, I liked to play chess, I liked computers and basic coding. Going to school and understanding 2+2 and 3*3 was a matter of milliseconds for me, while others required more complex models that were already pre-built. Plus, their (more or less empty, child-like) interests didn't support the school material, while mine did.

@Artis I always had A-grades in school, but you cannot tell me it's because there was RNG involved. Any of them could've decided not to play soccer in the afternoon, but try to understand the theory of relativity. This would've boosted their grades in most classes.
Furthermore, from a video game's perspective, even if the world wasn't fair (and accomplishments were due to luck), if there's a population of 100%, with 5% of players regularly quitting within, let's say, 1 year due to RNG and RNG only (and yes, when I first started playing, there were people quitting due to not getting monster helmets after 500+ runs), wouldn't it be smart to implement a system that would keep the 5% playing, like Black Desert is doing? Some "backup mechanism": "If you haven't gotten item X after Y runs, you get it with a chance of 100% on your Y+1 run. Wouldn't that be smarter than just discarding those players? The higher the population, the better, right? The more players willing to spend money on the game, the better, right? Other don't quit, but just decide not to spend money on a game that is treating them way worse than others. Why say no to their money? Is that good for the population overall? I don't think so.

Cuyler · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Lol all of that is already replied to in that link.

"I know that it is unfair that some students spend no time at all on schoolwork and get A’s while others struggle and barely scrape C’s. I suggest you quickly cry a river, build a bridge and get over it. In the meantime, reflect on whether you want other students graded based on how hard they try. "

Too bad you put so much effort and get C's instead of acing the test even though you think you are haha. And someone who will only run it once will get an A and his weapon.

Such is life. The reward is not proportional to effort. In games, where loot is usually random, it's closer to quantum mechanics - you don't know the state of a particle until you measure it So yeah not everything is deterministic in nature. Don't rationalize your requests with nature or RL.

Sigh. Let's drop "effort" since it's clearly become a red herring.

People who get an A in school with almost no effort (me) do so because we're naturally gifted, not because of luck. Similarly, some people can get Flawless in vMA in far fewer tries than others because they're just naturally better at gaming.

Success is a combination of effort and talent. Effort does not guarantee success. Nor does talent. So let's stop talking "effort" and talk "merit" (which is the combination of effort and talent).

The RNG system that you are so in love with is more akin to a kid taking a series of tests (running vMA) and getting an A (500K), B (400K), C (300K), D (under 300K or no score), or F (failing to beat it). And then the school decides if the kid makes the Honor Roll not based on the scores from his tests, but on a coin flip. Alice there who got A's on all her tests got Tails. No Honor Roll for her! Bobby got a bunch of C's and a couple of B's got Heads and he gets on the Honor Roll. Charlie took one test, failed it with an F, retook it, and barely scraped out with a D. But he got Heads too. Go Charlie!

In what universe would a system like that be fair? If I were a parent, I'd be trying to get that principal fired.

< 3

InfaM · May 2016

When comparing VMA to a real life test it would more be like that :

An oral test with a series of questions , each time the person gives a good answer the teacher roll the dices with a total of 200 combination, now let's say you need to roll a 77 to decide that someone pass the test, now if you give a fail answer at any given time you simply fail the test and nobody cares about the dice rolls.

Student A : 2 good answer , roll 77, pass the test (fast lucky vma runs)
Student B : streak of 40 good answer , roll 77 (still lucky vma runs)
Student C : fail answer , no roll (vma not completed so not concerned about vma loot)

Student D : streak of 400+ good answer and still not rolled 77

That student D is still giving good answers, he actually gave more good answer than others student , and he will probably still gives good answers to any of the following questions , but he's unlucky as *** and he's still here answering questions while others passed the test with less than half the good answers he already provided.

That student D is now telling the teacher that he did all those effort to learn his lessons and being able to gives good answers for the only purpose of passing the test and not to be stuck forever in that class room endlessly giving correct answer for being asked a next question, there should be a cap to put everyone on the same level, the goal of those questions is still to prove that he deserves to pass the test, but well the teacher don't gives a *** about it, he just roll the dice and answer "no worry keep giving good answers at some point you'll get lucky and pass the test".
Now that student will start to realise that this rating system is *** as *** and that he's probably being rated by someone lazy enough to not even do the effort of taking in account the numbers of good answers or the quality of the answers he's giving, which will lead him to think that the teacher is fooling him then he'll be like "well *** it, I don't care about that test anymore , it's more of a gamble than a test, all that staging just to end up rating my luck" even if with all the answers he gave he probably deserve it more than others, that's were unlucky VMA farmers are also quitting on ESO.

VMA is like a test right, and all test are putting everyone on the same level, given that it's only about good answers , I don't know of any test that let people answer right only half of the questions and rewards them with the same note as someone who answered right every questions.
As far as I know there's no luck involved in a test.

Decado · May 2016

I wonder if ZoS is even reading this? Do they have anything to say about the loot system? Any plans to change it? Or are they happy with it and never plan to change, I think hats a question we should get answers for, atleast we would
Know where we stood

LegendaryArcher · May 2016

@ZOS_Finn Feedback please.

InfaM · May 2016

.

LegendaryArcher · May 2016

Doesn't look like any of the ZOS representatives give much of a damn about this thread.

InfaM · May 2016

They don't give a *** about any VMA RNG issue thread.

Decado · May 2016

Let's start swearing and arguing and insulting each other, we may get a reply then, seems to me the only time we get a response in these kinda threads is when we are told to behave ourselves

hedna123b14_ESO · May 2016

Decado wrote: »

Let's start swearing and arguing and insulting each other, we may get a reply then, seems to me the only time we get a response in these kinda threads is when we are told to behave ourselves

I bite my thumb at you sir!

pretzl · May 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Decado wrote: »

Let's start swearing and arguing and insulting each other, we may get a reply then, seems to me the only time we get a response in these kinda threads is when we are told to behave ourselves

I bite my thumb at you sir!

Maybe I should hop into the discussion? Mods seem to enjoy deleting my clearly constructive dank memes...

Shadesofkin · May 2016

Seriously, we've been begging for tokens. We're not even asking to be unreasonable with a small amount, 10tokens per run, 120 tokens to buy a Maelstrom Weapon. 12 Runs where we have a maybe 50% chance at the weapon we want, and after that 12th run we can go buy one with something that you'd consider the 2nd Best trait much like the Golden Vendor. This isn't going to stop us from completing the content, many of us have multiple alts and many of us really feel that we should have them all outfitted to do whatever they can.

While we're at it, the Sword and Shield needs to be a 2piece set, it cannot continue to remain a lousy 1h and absolutely useless shield. There is NO meta build currently that can safely say using the Shield will help. And that low slash enchant is just absolutely sub optimal to the point of useless. I get the direction you wanted to go, but no tank is going to use it.

LegendaryArcher · May 2016

Decado wrote: »

Let's start swearing and arguing and insulting each other, we may get a reply then, seems to me the only time we get a response in these kinda threads is when we are told to behave ourselves

Sadly, you're right. That's how mods become aware of threads.

@Decado I *** your mom.

pretzl · May 2016

LegendaryArcher wrote: »

Decado wrote: »

Let's start swearing and arguing and insulting each other, we may get a reply then, seems to me the only time we get a response in these kinda threads is when we are told to behave ourselves

Sadly, you're right. That's how mods become aware of threads.

@Decado I *** your mom.

Damn, this just turned into CoD XBOX Live real fast. I like it