NativeJoe wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Roymachine wrote: »

So dramatic. The good sorcs who stick with it will learn to adapt and move on.

The good sorcs have been sticking with the class and have watched its 2 years long agonizing march to death. It is finally here, it is called the Dark Brotherhood.

I guess that why shieldstacking sorcs are so OP that were forced to play without any shields in EU tournament.

Again, you are talking about PvP, not PvE. That is only half of the game, half of the story and thus a very narrow vision.

Yes, sorcerers have good burst and they had good survivability with their shields in PvP, but in PvE we have worst DPS registered, near to no utility for a raid, we can't heal efficiently and we can't tank nearly as well as other classes. That is the sorcerer reality, not some colored version of a competition in Europe which happened before all this nerfs hit this already agonizing class.

Worst DPS registered, yeah... right

https://youtu.be/Bfi1e_2xif4

And the dps of everyone else in that fight?
Be buffed by an entire raid group is one thing... I've seen 4 man groups with a NB's pulling 15k higher dps then that.
he also is not shielding at all "had to cut his shield to increase his dps" which sometimes just isn't possible in some content because we lack other classes mitigation techniques.
He's literally running 6 attacks, with innerlight and bound armor.
No self buffs/group buffs, wearing molag kena and x5 piece twice born.

It's all glass cannon, and completely dependent on others for support, and not a realistic scenerio in the least for judging a class.

What would a Nb, dk, or templar get from their builds if they went glass cannon all in it for themselves? I know other classes can achieve higher numbers without sacrificing everything for damage spamming.

i can show you 1000000000 videos people make more DPS than this with other classes...:)...like dk nb and templar:D...

Minalan wrote: »

Roymachine wrote: »

So dramatic. The good sorcs who stick with it will learn to adapt and move on.

@Roymachine

Please take a look at the vet maelstrom thread on the PTS here. The numbers are all there. This isn't an L2P issue, it's a find a new game to play problem.

So changes come into the game and you can't do something you could do before with the same build when the skills of that build have changed. Sounds like a L2P issue to me. I'm not saying learn to play the same build to more efficiency but man nobody even wants to look at potentially changing their build. We'll see what sorcs are able to complete vMA with the new changes soon and if the leaderboards for Sorc are empty or all sub 400k score suddenly then I'm sure something will change. In general though, people look at changes that directly affect their build and complain that they won't be able to play exactly the same way they did before.

Rohaus wrote: »

What classes have all the PvP streamers been playing on since... well, for a solid year +? Oh, that's right, Sorcs and NB's.

I still think the 1 v X celebs will still be rolling as Sorc or NB just because of their ease of escape... that won't change.

I despise Sorcs and NB's... both those classes have had their time in the sun FAR longer than DK's ever did.

"You had your time. The future is our world, Sorcs. The future is our time."

BYE!

Boy you must have missed 1.0 to 1.5 entirely. It was elder dragonknights online.

Also sad that zos has this balancing approach (i think they´re subject to a misconception of what the term "perfect imbalance" means).
Changing abilities/mechanics by 70% this far into the game just proves they´re entirely clueless in terms of actually trying to balance anything.

Derra wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

What classes have all the PvP streamers been playing on since... well, for a solid year +? Oh, that's right, Sorcs and NB's.

I still think the 1 v X celebs will still be rolling as Sorc or NB just because of their ease of escape... that won't change.

I despise Sorcs and NB's... both those classes have had their time in the sun FAR longer than DK's ever did.

"You had your time. The future is our world, Sorcs. The future is our time."

BYE!

Boy you must have missed 1.0 to 1.5 entirely. It was elder dragonknights online.

Also sad that zos has this balancing approach (i think they´re subject to a misconception of what the term "perfect imbalance" means).
Changing abilities/mechanics by 70% this far into the game just proves they´re entirely clueless in terms of actually trying to balance anything.

How many months was it between 1.0 and 1.5?

1.6 hit in February of 2015... even though that was a Stam focus update, 1.6 that is, Sorcs became quite powerful during that time. Basically, we are talking a SOLID 12+ months where Magicka Sorcs have been VERY dominate.

Magicka DK's are still bottom barrel... it is possible that with the changes coming to mist form, that MAYBE Magicka DK's will have a chance to get away from zerg baddies.

Magicka Sorcs will remain powerful though even with the so called nerfs.

And, if you want to play Stamina so badly... roll a NB or DK... The idea of stamina sorcs just does not make any sense to begin with...

KenaPKK wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

@Grao I have to agree with @KenaPKK that it is important for the devs to balance around pvp first, and pve second. If they do not do this, PVP gets ruined. I've seen it time and again on many games, and this one is even no different. The DK talon spamming perma-batswarm flame lash and dragon leaping vampire is permanently seared on the memories of many pvp'ers for this very reason. Heck that had people who were able to stack bat swarm on top of bat swarm at one point because of this. Once he developers have a handle on PvP balance it makes it easier for them to then take the pvp design and apply it to pve. DCUO did a pretty good job of this.

I do realize your concerns though @Grao. I personally think the Sorcerer class is a neat class but gets 'locked in' on certain elements many of which aren't advantageous - like pets. I can see why Pet builds are not happy about getting a brief shield, and I think a suggestion that would allow for the pet-morph of the shield to last longer on pets or apply some other long term benefit (a HoT or such to them) might be an idea worth pursuing. The Sorcerer as it stands is a hard class to balance for a lot of reasons that I've iterated in other posts. I personally agree that the commitment they have to toggles with the class might not be the most fun option in a game where you have so few button options to begin with. I realize the frustrations, all I'm trying to say to you is to not give up hope. Sorcerer is too popular for them to let it shrivel on the vine.

When you start excluding half of your player base from consideration when balancing a class, that is when the game gets ruined. So your point here is, it is ok for PvE to be ruined as long as PvP is balanced? Well, I am sorry but that sounds just a little bit selfish, how would you feel if PvP was ruined so PvE was ok? I bet you wouldn't feel so great and wouldn't be here defending Zenimax's balancing strategies.

And this is why you're not on the balance team.

You first balance player characters and abilities around PvP, and then you balance PvE around the resulting player characters and abilities. You can control simple PvE mob stats and AI, but you can't control players.

That's how it works -- or at least how it should work. Lately, ZOS has been balancing PvP around a static PvE, resulting in a massive exodus of long time PvP players because PvP is bad right now. It's very bad. Go play PvP instead of sitting in your easy mode PvE bubble, and you'd know these things.

Shame. I was actually agreeing with some of the points you had made in the thread, but after this last bit of garbage - it's obvious you really don't know much about the game or the differences between PVP and PVE. And obviously nothing about game balance.

PVP is bad. PVE is not an "easy mode bubble". The game needs to be balanced so that it's possible to have a PVE build be at least OK in PVP play. And vice versa. Right now, it's not. When I take my average PVE character into PVP I get wrecked. Instantly. Not "oh, let me make a few tweaks and maybe I can help out". No. Wrecked. That's why I stopped playing PVP. And the PVP "balance" crap Zos is forcing on us is spilling into PVE play as well.

Grao wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

What classes have all the PvP streamers been playing on since... well, for a solid year +? Oh, that's right, Sorcs and NB's.

I still think the 1 v X celebs will still be rolling as Sorc or NB just because of their ease of escape... that won't change.

I despise Sorcs and NB's... both those classes have had their time in the sun FAR longer than DK's ever did.

"You had your time. The future is our world, Sorcs. The future is our time."

BYE!

Boy you must have missed 1.0 to 1.5 entirely. It was elder dragonknights online.

Also sad that zos has this balancing approach (i think they´re subject to a misconception of what the term "perfect imbalance" means).
Changing abilities/mechanics by 70% this far into the game just proves they´re entirely clueless in terms of actually trying to balance anything.

How many months was it between 1.0 and 1.5?

1.6 hit in February of 2015... even though that was a Stam focus update, 1.6 that is, Sorcs became quite powerful during that time. Basically, we are talking a SOLID 12+ months where Magicka Sorcs have been VERY dominate.

Magicka DK's are still bottom barrel... it is possible that with the changes coming to mist form, that MAYBE Magicka DK's will have a chance to get away from zerg baddies.

Magicka Sorcs will remain powerful though even with the so called nerfs.

And, if you want to play Stamina so badly... roll a NB or DK... The idea of stamina sorcs just does not make any sense to begin with...

OMG!!!!!!

Just because F**KING Cyrodiil is in the center of the f**king map doesn't make you a**hole PvPers the center of the f**king world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously. How many f**king times do we have to come and explain the problem we have is not with Sorcerer in f**king PvP????? Meanwhile PvE sorcerers have been the weakest class for about a year and saw only nerfs for pretty much a year and a half!

F**k PvP and f**k PvPers, you guys are so f**king self centered!

Pretty much this. They love pretending to be the center of the world, lol.

Grao wrote: »

LOL 5 sorcerer threads with about 2000 posts with all put together and no answer... What do they choose to answer to?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2985195#Comment_2985195

This. Werewolf fur recoloring...

Actually, most interesting thing I've seen come out of this thread.

Rylana wrote: »

this thread makes me giggle.

see you after DB

- Sorc

From what I've seen sorcs will be pretty much gone next patch, lol. I know I'll put mine into hibernation until better times arrives so he doesn't have to be completely traumatized by the nerfs this new patch.

STEVIL wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

this thread makes me giggle.

see you after DB

- Sorc

From what I've seen sorcs will be pretty much gone next patch, lol. I know I'll put mine into hibernation until better times arrives so he doesn't have to be completely traumatized by the nerfs this new patch.

So the god news is any sorcerer beneficial gear should be rather cheap and/or uncontested with all these sorcerers-in-exile.

Hot damn!!! My hunt for necropotence 160 will be a LOT easie

"It's gonna be a bright, bright sun shiney day..."

Yes, it'll be so much fun being a togglemancer with 1 attack.

disclaimer most of this is only for pve its my opinion that sorc was fine for pvp before, and is still fine with pts changes in pvp:

i mainly tank now in trials, but in 4 man content i run dps and sometimes in trials i run dps. but i spent alot of time pve dpsing (magicka nb, stam nb, mag templar, mag sorc, stam sorc), and still do. i mostly dps'd a nightblade up till about 3 weeks before TG, at which point i swapped to magicka sorc (my main pvp toon), i changed over for the challenge of running the "underdog" magicka class. im still playing magicka sorc dps mainly, some notes:

-without overload, dps is very comparable between nb and sorc, especially in longer fights, if your spot on your rotation, this can be seen in VmoL (the hardest content in game currently), it is like magicka dk though, you suffer greatly if you miss a dot/weave and dmg goes down fast from there.
-UTILITY IS NOT EQUAL<- this is where magicka sorc needs buffed, they need more buffs to offer the group
-i tank with ALL FOUR classes in trials and 4 man content, they are all good in their own ways with imho temp/nb/dk being best and sorc coming last, but still a very viable tank, as a magicka based tank you can add alot of dps to group. stam sorc tanking sucks, but with the coming changes i think there will be a little better viability for a stam sorc tank.
-yes sorcs are bassically required to run destro staff for force pulse, but atm for competitive numbers magicka NB are required to run force pulse too. there is a build that can net you over 30k without outside buffs on bloodspawn (this is a true single target fight done with only a tank to taunt boss and heal you as needed, no buffs, and no outside dps) using dw on main bar and destro on back bar, the rotation is interesting, but a really cool change and if u want a challenge, try it, i was involved in helping test it, here is the link: tamrielfoundry.com/topic/noss-highly-improbable-but-possibly-workable-sorc-build/
-magicka sorc does need more options, but only in terms of utility (buffs for the group) there are plenty of useless skills/morphs that could get this treatment, there isnt really an issues in being "tied" to destro staff, because you only use 2 skills from it, you still use 4 non toggle skills that are sorc specific, it would be REALLY nice to see a better ulti out of the atro for mag and stam though. most classes/builds are tied to weapons in pve (ie: magicka nb is tied to destro with 2 skills needed from it, infact all magicka builds are tied to destro simply because of WOE, stam dk is tied to dw, infact all stam builds will likely be tied to dw in the next patch, most are also currently and will remain tied completely to bow for the offbar)
-stam sorc will probably not be the bottom stam dps class next patch, but it definately will not be close to stam dk
- while not super competitive, my highest vdsa score is on my sorc (#33 currently at 34.4k) this was done without overload and there are plenty of sorcs with much better scores than me.
- there are sorcs in the top 3 groups of EVERY trial leaderboard in the game, currently the highest Vma score too, they wouldnt be there if they couldnt hang, people are not carrying them through, if your in a high end raiding guild you know they dont work that way, everyone pulls their weight.

TL;DR? to wrap up, yes sorc as a class needs the most attention of any of the classes currently in pve, BUT it is not because they cant do dps, their NON overload dps with the right players is the about the same as other magicka classes in longer fights, and in short fights overload can still net you well over 40k dps if you keep your dots up, where they need a ton of work is in what they offer to the group in the way of buffs, would be cool to see some things that ONLY a sorc can bring for the group as a whole, the other thing i would suggest is reworking atro, i havent tested the new negate yet but it seems legit imho.