WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I'd love to see this, Sorcs playing Templar lol. Mines and Hardened Ward 1000% stronger than Templar house.

As a prior 2 year sorcerer player I've got my Mageplar to V16 during the cake event. I''ve been taking the field in Cyrodiil once again like I used to on my Sorc, "when it was decent". I was even stomping V16 Sorcs on live with a darn Lvl 34 Stamblade. Let not even talk about my cheese Mageblade. But w/e yall got yalls wish and got a class completely nuked.

Stamblade is currently lvl 45 and I have a lvl 7 Stamknight ready to get leveled soon as well. As they say if you can't beat'em, join'em.

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I'd love to see this, Sorcs playing Templar lol. Mines and Hardened Ward 1000% stronger than Templar house.

As a prior 2 year sorcerer player I've got my Mageplar to V16 during the cake event. I''ve been taking the field in Cyrodiil once again like I used to on my Sorc, "when it was decent". I was even stomping V16 Sorcs on live with a darn Lvl 34 Stamblade. Let not even talk about my cheese Mageblade. But w/e yall got yalls wish and got a class completely nuked.

Stamblade is currently lvl 45 and I have a lvl 7 Stamknight ready to get leveled soon as well. As they say if you can't beat'em, join'em.

You been standing in the back spamming J Beam getting loadsa kills. Good for you, Overload light attacks are actually better for that BTW but anyway on the Templar, what happens when your group falls apart around you and you're left with 2 Sorcs, a Stam DK and a Stamblade? Unless you're a complete tank, you're dying, no escape, no defence that scales from max magicka.

Trust me I dualled Sorcs in the PTS, they are the strongest even against stam DK's. 2 sorcs were actually unbeatable.

Now for PvE. DPS isn't everything, being able to complete the content is. Maelstrom is way easier on a Sorc this and the next patch. That's a fact.

Ok, 1v4 and you expect him to win? That would be balanced? Can you win 1v4 on a sorcerer? What level were the 4 you fought? lvl 1? lvl 2? lol

I am so sorry but if you failed to kill a sorcerer 1v1 as a stamina DK you suck. Half of the sorcerer skills can be reflected man, and that half is the half that does most damage, crystal frags and overload >.<

Also, LOL again, have you actually seen the data for VMA from the PTS? Sorcerers are doing horribly since their shield was obliterated and their main sustain option was nerfed as well. Come on, if you are going to give an opinion on sorcerers at least do your homework... @Joy_Division has a huge post he released today precisely on concerns about VMA... >.<

But you are right about DPS not being everything in PvE, utility is also important... Guess what class provide the least raid Utility? Ding ding ding. Sorcerers!!! Tanking is also important for PvE, which class has the worst sustain? Sorcerers!!! Healing is also important for PVE, guess which is the only class to have their heal tied to a pet as resilient as toilet paper???? SORCERERS!!!

Vangy wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

It is hilarious how people that come and say Sorcerers are fine and perfect are people that have every other class listed in their signatures...! All except sorcerers.

I have a sorc.... They aren't perfect. But they are fine. Just not optimal. Refer to my above post for reasoning.

See, you have a sorcerers, so you at least have points to argue on. I agree magicka sorcerers are ok in pvP, they are not the most powerful, but do well enough.

But in PvE the class in general is in serious trouble.

While it is true we were the first class to run around with absurdly low health, we weren;t the last. Actually every PvE oriented DPSer currently has about 16-17k health, the minimum provided by the game because they can survive the content thanks to all the resistances we get from the Champion System. By the way, that is why you were able to drop Ward from your rotation... Your Champion Points became enough that you could survive only on them and more powerful heals from your healers.

We are and have been for quite a while the weakest Magicka and Stamina DPS, how much more do we have to wait for sorcerer's DPS to be increased? For the first time we had managed to free our selves from using Destro staff as our main weapons and what did Zenimax do? Changed Trapping Webs and all its morphs to be stamina morphs >.<

So we are back to Force Pulse, an ability that does not benefit well from our passives, cannot couple with Overload (for obvious reasons) and that has the lowest base damage of the spammable magicka abilities. we are also forced into using a Fire staff even though Lightning would be far more beneficial for sorcerers as all shock spells have increased damage from the Storm Calling passives, but light and heavy attack from the lightning staff sucks and is as bugged as overload, so we can't use it.

Sorcerer DPS has been in this state for almost a year, it is not a recent problem it is not a problem this patch is introducing, it is a problem this patch is aggravating. When is the problem going to be solved? Also have you tested the Healing Negate? Because that is the one that will be trully valuable in PvE, the damage one I can see being useful for high AoE and PvP.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

@Grao with regard to the PvP vs. PvE balance concerns I think you misunderstand me. I think @KenaPKK holds to a similar philosophy here as me. DCUO tried to balance PvP game design first, and the wonderful thing about it is that the gameplay in PvE feels a lot more like Pvp than in many other mmo's. What this means it that when a player comes from PvE and goes to PVP in that game it doesn't feel so foreign to them. Its a breath of fresh air honestly, instead of having to learn and apply two completely sets of principles and games really.

I would argue that PvE balance can't be possible without first coming through the crucible of PvP balancing. PvP brings out the obvious faults of a build which might go unnoticed in the pve-realm otherwise. All too often I've seen in games where a skill set is functionally terrible but mathematically great. Devs often hold hardline to them for years for no reason. The Assault RIfle Blaster skillset in City of Heroes was an excellent example of this. There were some serious functional problems with this skill set with respect to other Blaster sets. It took them something like 5 years to really right the wrong. When PvP comes first, the obvious failings of a build come to the fore and are more easily balanced. In all honesty, I believe your desire to see Pet Builds become more meaningful could be benefitted by having the Pet Build being run through the crucible of pvp. When its clear Pet Builds under perform, and that the Devs want Pet Builds to be meaningful, it causes them to think of novel ways to solve the issues with them and with the class. The same can be said of the AoE's of the class.

I've made similar debates on the Templar subject matter, sometimes unpopular as well in that crowd. PvP Balancing SHOULD help PvE balance in my view. The reverse is not true because ultimately PvE encounters are more or less canned, and once you have the gear and know the flow of a pve encounter you know what needs to be done every time.

What I'm not suggesting is that PvE gameplay is somehow inferior. I'm just suggesting that game balance as a whole (and this is just a personal view by observation and reason) is best approached from the pvp side of the game first.

I see... So, how many more years do you think it is fair to make PvE sorcerers wait to have their class balanced to the content they are interested in? Over half the content of the game by the way, since Cyyrodill is one little continent and PvE extends to considerably more territory...

Because we've been waiting for ZOS to be done balancing PvP for over a year now... Sorcerer's main abilities have only seen nerfs this past year... We haven't even seen bug fixes as Overload is still bugged and Crystal blast still fails to activate properly...

I mean, fine... I understand that PvP has to be balanced, but don't you think it is taking ridiculously too long? Maybe ZoS should do some palliative buffing for PvE sorcerers in the mean time because as it is the class is nearing its death.

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I'd love to see this, Sorcs playing Templar lol. Mines and Hardened Ward 1000% stronger than Templar house.

As a prior 2 year sorcerer player I've got my Mageplar to V16 during the cake event. I''ve been taking the field in Cyrodiil once again like I used to on my Sorc, "when it was decent". I was even stomping V16 Sorcs on live with a darn Lvl 34 Stamblade. Let not even talk about my cheese Mageblade. But w/e yall got yalls wish and got a class completely nuked.

Stamblade is currently lvl 45 and I have a lvl 7 Stamknight ready to get leveled soon as well. As they say if you can't beat'em, join'em.

You been standing in the back spamming J Beam getting loadsa kills. Good for you, Overload light attacks are actually better for that BTW but anyway on the Templar, what happens when your group falls apart around you and you're left with 2 Sorcs, a Stam DK and a Stamblade? Unless you're a complete tank, you're dying, no escape, no defence that scales from max magicka.

Trust me I dualled Sorcs in the PTS, they are the strongest even against stam DK's. 2 sorcs were actually unbeatable.

Now for PvE. DPS isn't everything, being able to complete the content is. Maelstrom is way easier on a Sorc this and the next patch. That's a fact.

Ok, 1v4 and you expect him to win? That wqould be balanced? Can you win 1v4 on a sorcerer? What level were the other 4? 1? 2? lol

I am so sorry but if you failed to kill a sorcerer 1v1 as a stamina DK you suck. Half of the sorcerer skills can be reflected man, and that hald is the half that does most damage, crystal frags and overload >.<

Win, possibly, many Sorcs can do this. But getting away so he can rez his group later or get a camp up, he won't be able to do that on a Templar haha, he'll probably be the first to die tbh, everyone takes the Templar first. Our group does anyway.

FYI I've won a few 1vX on all my characters. Templar being the most rewarding, as in, the hardest to do and very high risk. Apart from Magicka DK, Templar is the hardest to kill with 1vX, no INSTANT burst, no root, no AoE CC like Sorcs. Magicka DK is also hard to get kills but at least you can Tank for a while which is useful.

When fighting Stam DK on a Sorc, the hardest counter a Sorc can face. You need to count light attacks, you also need Crushing Shock, Atro, Mines and Curse. Forget OL and Frags, they're not even that useful against my Templar tbh. The Stam DK's I saw beaten did not suck, they destroyed my Templar in 1 combo, the Sorcs took it on the chin (well 2 Shields that mitigate physical damage to be correct) many times and when the DK's took too many mines they were punished instantly.

Ok, I am sorry, but if a Magicka sorcerer wins 1v4 in this current patch the other 4 were not playing adequately. I am sorry, but 1v4 no class should be able to win, period.

I do accept that the sorcerer might not die 1v4, but he wouldn't win. He would spam his shields and Bolt Escape away because sorcerers are still slippery in PvP despite the ridiculous debuff on Bolt Escape.

And great, if you wqon 1v1 in every character than it seems things are pretty balanced in PvE, every build has weaknesses, some tricker than others, but they are there. I want to see some PVE Balancing happening though... Because in PvE sorcerers always lose, they lose as tanks, they lose as healers, they lose as magicka dps and the lose as stamina dps as well.

Vangy wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

It is hilarious how people that come and say Sorcerers are fine and perfect are people that have every other class listed in their signatures...! All except sorcerers.

I have a sorc.... They aren't perfect. But they are fine. Just not optimal. Refer to my above post for reasoning.

See, you have a sorcerers, so you at least have points to argue on. I agree magicka sorcerers are ok in pvP, they are not the most powerful, but do well enough.

But in PvE the class in general is in serious trouble.

While it is true we were the first class to run around with absurdly low health, we weren;t the last. Actually every PvE oriented DPSer currently has about 16-17k health, the minimum provided by the game because they can survive the content thanks to all the resistances we get from the Champion System. By the way, that is why you were able to drop Ward from your rotation... Your Champion Points became enough that you could survive only on them and more powerful heals from your healers.

We are and have been for quite a while the weakest Magicka and Stamina DPS, how much more do we have to wait for sorcerer's DPS to be increased? For the first time we had managed to free our selves from using Destro staff as our main weapons and what did Zenimax do? Changed Trapping Webs and all its morphs to be stamina morphs >.<

So we are back to Force Pulse, an ability that does not benefit well from our passives, cannot couple with Overload (for obvious reasons) and that has the lowest base damage of the spammable magicka abilities. we are also forced into using a Fire staff even though Lightning would be far more beneficial for sorcerers as all shock spells have increased damage from the Storm Calling passives, but light and heavy attack from the lightning staff sucks and is as bugged as overload, so we can't use it.

Sorcerer DPS has been in this state for almost a year, it is not a recent problem it is not a problem this patch is introducing, it is a problem this patch is aggravating. When is the problem going to be solved? Also have you tested the Healing Negate? Because that is the one that will be trully valuable in PvE, the damage one I can see being useful for high AoE and PvP.

I agree with most of what you have to say man. No I havent looked into the healing negate cos I use my templar for heals =X.. Too many DPS are addicted to SHARDS SHARDS SHARDS...... I think ZOS had their hands full with the stamina balancing for this patch... The DK changes etc. Maybe next DLC..... Its not nice to wait but considering at least one of my toons were broken for 6 months + at each point in time, ive come to accept the fact that ZOS needs to break things to fix them lol.... I remember long before I was even on the forums, my DK sucked, then got better...(not mag), templar always sucked....now got better, sorc was pretty darn OP... then slowly got nerfed nerfed just like old mag DK.... etc etc. Its the sad truth of ESO. Balance is never going to happen fully lol. One or 2 classes will be broken as F at any point in time. Its just my sorcs turn to take one in the knee for PvE lol. Eventually she will become OP again and maybe stamDK will suck in the near future lol.

Its been a year and a half since ZoS started nerfing sorcerers in PvE and it hasn't stopped. Even in this patch our DPS is being further shot down... You waited 6 months to have your character fixed... Sorcerers have been the lowest DPS in every damage meter for an entire year. Our build have zero flexibility, we can't even choose our main weapon, our ults are either bugged or don't provide either enough DPS or enough utility to the point we are asked to run barrier and warhorn in raids when utility is needed because our class doesn't offer any. I am hoping the Healing Negate is good and gives us a much needed Utility focused Ult, but ZOS has a way to disappoint me whenever I am hopeful.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

It is hilarious how people that come and say Sorcerers are fine and perfect are people that have every other class listed in their signatures...! All except sorcerers.

I have a sorc.... They aren't perfect. But they are fine. Just not optimal. Refer to my above post for reasoning.

See, you have a sorcerers, so you at least have points to argue on. I agree magicka sorcerers are ok in pvP, they are not the most powerful, but do well enough.

But in PvE the class in general is in serious trouble.

While it is true we were the first class to run around with absurdly low health, we weren;t the last. Actually every PvE oriented DPSer currently has about 16-17k health, the minimum provided by the game because they can survive the content thanks to all the resistances we get from the Champion System. By the way, that is why you were able to drop Ward from your rotation... Your Champion Points became enough that you could survive only on them and more powerful heals from your healers.

We are and have been for quite a while the weakest Magicka and Stamina DPS, how much more do we have to wait for sorcerer's DPS to be increased? For the first time we had managed to free our selves from using Destro staff as our main weapons and what did Zenimax do? Changed Trapping Webs and all its morphs to be stamina morphs >.<

So we are back to Force Pulse, an ability that does not benefit well from our passives, cannot couple with Overload (for obvious reasons) and that has the lowest base damage of the spammable magicka abilities. we are also forced into using a Fire staff even though Lightning would be far more beneficial for sorcerers as all shock spells have increased damage from the Storm Calling passives, but light and heavy attack from the lightning staff sucks and is as bugged as overload, so we can't use it.

Sorcerer DPS has been in this state for almost a year, it is not a recent problem it is not a problem this patch is introducing, it is a problem this patch is aggravating. When is the problem going to be solved? Also have you tested the Healing Negate? Because that is the one that will be trully valuable in PvE, the damage one I can see being useful for high AoE and PvP.

I agree with most of what you have to say man. No I havent looked into the healing negate cos I use my templar for heals =X.. Too many DPS are addicted to SHARDS SHARDS SHARDS...... I think ZOS had their hands full with the stamina balancing for this patch... The DK changes etc. Maybe next DLC..... Its not nice to wait but considering at least one of my toons were broken for 6 months + at each point in time, ive come to accept the fact that ZOS needs to break things to fix them lol.... I remember long before I was even on the forums, my DK sucked, then got better...(not mag), templar always sucked....now got better, sorc was pretty darn OP... then slowly got nerfed nerfed just like old mag DK.... etc etc. Its the sad truth of ESO. Balance is never going to happen fully lol. One or 2 classes will be broken as F at any point in time. Its just my sorcs turn to take one in the knee for PvE lol. Eventually she will become OP again and maybe stamDK will suck in the near future lol.

@Vangy you sum up my feelings on the matter of class balance and repair. I'm trying to suggest that @Grao realize that the grass isn't always greener. I've seen what its like for nightblade to really underperform, for Templar to have an array of skills that don't properly work (many of which by the way still don't properly work). All classes need refinement. The shift in game systems (CP for instance) was huge to the game and upended a lot of inherent attempts at balance from the old system (soft caps and such). The addition to cc-immunity to the game completely flipped Templar cc on its head, and probably won't really start to look better until this DB patch goes live. Even then Eclipse is still terrible, and should not be a cc at all. I could also talk about how I've seen the heavy attack (I forget the morph, but igneous weapons) DK build get completely gutted in I believe it was the TG update. DK lost its execute in that patch. Dk is becoming a poison knight so player who built around dunmer flame damage dropping a flame volley with their bow now find they're going to need to build a different way.

I expect change in the game. At any regard my views are clear here. My suggestion @Grao is for you to just point out the key elements where you see flaws with the Sorcerer. I'll reiterate my views on it very simplistically because I'm tired:
1) Toggles are bad.
2) If they get rid of the Toggling problem and stop forcing a double-load of skills, they also need to get rid of the overload bar to make up for that fact.
3) Hopefully Surge is better. I'll try it out when it goes live, no time for test servers right now.
4) Exchange could be better.
5) Pets need better meaning and use.
6) A stamina attack would be interesting for Sorc, but needs to be balanced with the fact that the more skills a Sorc can slot from the class, the more damage he does. I was imagining something here like a Bound Armor version of Grim Focus, or something similar to it. Its just an idea but you could easily have a mag/stam morph.

What I am trying to get you to understand is that this is not a new situation, the grass has been quite brown for almost a year and now it is turning black. You talk about Nightblades being bad for 6 months, I know, my boyfriend left the game because of that, I am still trying to bring him back for some reason. But that was fixed in 6 months, our situation an year later is only getting worse. You talk about Templars having issues with several of their skill and DKs having to completely change their damage builds, that is all true, but it is also true those characters were never reduced to uselessness. Templars are the best healers in the game in the great majority of the situations, broken skills or not and DKs will always be the best at tanking or at least extremely good at it.
Sorcerers used to be good at Magicka DPS, that was our little corner in which we did well but half a year into the game every other class got buffs and our class started seeing some nerfs. They weren't as heavy initially, but six more month and our Magicka DPS went from best to worse. A year later and we are still seeing nerfs... Our utility was destroyed (again, hopes on the healing Negate being good), our damage was never rebalanced, actually it saw more nerfs even in this current patch and now it is our survivability that is going away, the last bit of... Anything we had... It leaves us also as the worse class for tanking. So we are it... The class that doesn't excel in anything Actually, we excel at sucking in PvE >.<

1) Toggles are not great, but if they have an active element they are tolerable, specially considering we do have the Overload bar to help us handle the toggleness. Give Bound Armaments and Bound Aegis a Active Ability.
3) Surge is worse, there is no denying it. At least for PvE Surge is very much worse. @Joy_Division ran tests and published an extensive analyzes of Sorcerer performance in VMA. Surge is really bad now.
4) Useless Exchange is useless. The ability needs to be an instant cast to be useful and ZOS won't do that as they fear the ability to permanently block in PvP, which I understand. This ability thus has to be replaced with a spammable Magicka DPS, melee and ranged morphs, untying us from staves, opening the possibility for melee magicka sorcerers and giving us extra sustain through blood magic.
5) The new passive that increases health if you have pets summoned should instead grant Magicka. The extra health should be moved to be the passive in Bound Aegis (Aegis is a shield thus the skill should be about being tankier, tougher). That would make pets far more desirable for Magicka DPS sorcerers. Pet need to also benefit from sorcerer passives and CPs, they currently don't. Their health could use buffs and Ward should also heal the pets by a certain amount besides shielding for a short duration.
6 Crystal Blast is still very much bugged. The ability needs to be looked into no matter what and since no one uses it, it could be redesigned to be a proc for Stamina Sorcerers. It is a staple ability for sorcerers in ESO afterall and thus stamina builds should have access to it as well.

luxfreak wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Roymachine wrote: »

So dramatic. The good sorcs who stick with it will learn to adapt and move on.

The good sorcs have been sticking with the class and have watched its 2 years long agonizing march to death. It is finally here, it is called the Dark Brotherhood.

I guess that why shieldstacking sorcs are so OP that were forced to play without any shields in EU tournament.

Again, you are talking about PvP, not PvE. That is only half of the game, half of the story and thus a very narrow vision.

Yes, sorcerers have good burst and they had good survivability with their shields in PvP, but in PvE we have worst DPS registered, near to no utility for a raid, we can't heal efficiently and we can't tank nearly as well as other classes. That is the sorcerer reality, not some colored version of a competition in Europe which happened before all this nerfs hit this already agonizing class.

Worst DPS registered, yeah... right

https://youtu.be/Bfi1e_2xif4

And the dps of everyone else in that fight?
Be buffed by an entire raid group is one thing... I've seen 4 man groups with a NB's pulling 15k higher dps then that.
he also is not shielding at all "had to cut his shield to increase his dps" which sometimes just isn't possible in some content because we lack other classes mitigation techniques.
He's literally running 6 attacks, with innerlight and bound armor.
No self buffs/group buffs, wearing molag kena and x5 piece twice born.

It's all glass cannon, and completely dependent on others for support, and not a realistic scenerio in the least for judging a class.

What would a Nb, dk, or templar get from their builds if they went glass cannon all in it for themselves? I know other classes can achieve higher numbers without sacrificing everything for damage spamming.

Hey, im sorry to disagree with you, but in my opinion, the main Objectiv of DDs in Elder Scrolls Online is to Deal Damage, and Secondary, to not kill others.
Neither sustain, nor Survivability should be a worry of ESO DDs.
The Reaseon for this are following:
-You dont need Full Tanks in ESO, you can probably Tank with 20k Resistances Unbuffed, if you can just provide group Support.
For the Few Times where you get Hit REALY hard, there are things called def ults, like Corrosiv.(Or The Ego Veil on Blades, etc)
-There are things called Healers, and different from WOW, ESO Healers are not only responsible for the Tanks survival, but the DDs Surviaval as well.
-> You dont need Full Heals, Support Heals can Flash Hard enought, and Healing Springs +Templar Focus are enought for even the Shield Phase in vmol 1st Boss(in my opinion the most hard to heal phase in game currently). Healers are Responisble for Ele-Drain on the Bosses.
- Healer and Tanks should use Necro Orbs in Raids and Group PVE

Soo, why do i think that DDs should Focus only on DPS?
Because everything in this Game gets more easy with more DPS. Most Fights include some kind of Damage Race, getting Harder over time.
And even for fights that dont get harder, they dont get easyer as well, so having a shorter fight duration makes it more easy to not loose focus while fighting.

Your turn

Well, unlike WoW, ESO has PvE Solo End Game content and to go through VMA every class needs some level of sustain... Good sustain. Currently in the PTS sorcerers that have done VMA several times and have no problem with the content are having serious issues because our ability to sustain was heavily nerfed. I know this only affects one end game PvE encounter, but it is still quite significant and should not be overlooked.

Derra wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

lol

This thread amuses me.

This won't be a popular opinion (but what does the general populace tend to know anyway?).

Anyone who thinks sorc is "dead" next patch is a moron. There, I said it.

You are getting huge buffs to Harness Magicka and Negate. Literally all you have to do differently is slot meteor or the damage morph of negate instead of Dawnbreaker and time your shields a little bit more deliberately before you anticipate taking damage.

I've been running around on a sorc with all sustain sets and no undaunted using just Hardened Ward for a long time, and I do just fine in solo / 1vX PvP. I consider this a huge buff to good sorcs, and good riddance to bad sorcs. The shields are still too big, but I expect people will just start using the new Harness instead of both, which is pretty alright imo.

Damage increasing, mobility unchanged, defense technically buffed but harder to pull off = sorcs overall buffed this patch. Stop being sheeple.

Standard cookie cutter builds were maybe buffed when having to fight multiple stam builds. That´s about where sorcs were buffed.

Surge was nerfed into oblivion - why would i try to utilize crit again now? Every sustained dmg build (some people actually played those) was nerfed bc they require higher offensive uptime than standard burst rotations. Every pet build was nerfed.

If you´re fighting idiots the class will be fine. Against anyone competent you´re going to have a bad time as noone i know worth their weight in pvp dies to sorc burst combos.
It´s like saying NB is fine because they´re excellent at scrubfarming but once you put them against a competent stamDK they just hit a brick wall.

Wait... Stamina DKs are not a brick wall? I think pretty much every class feels they are...