Can we get a class change since sorcs are dead next patch?

Alpheu5

Grao wrote: »

I am so sorry but if you failed to kill a sorcerer 1v1 as a stamina DK you suck. Half of the sorcerer skills can be reflected man, and that half is the half that does most damage, crystal frags and overload >.<

I take issue with this, primarily because I main a magicka sorcerer that absolutely loves fighting stamina DKs. You're saying that any time I won wasn't because I was good, but because the other person sucked. That's like saying I won a running race, not cause I was faster or more fit, but the other guy was actually a paraplegic. Don't justify your own ineptitude at a task by bashing people that have managed to accomplish what you haven't yet.

iam117

@Grao i wouldnt argue for anything other than inferno staff, everyone is tied to it for WOE, the fire tick is too good to ignore. so no i will not argue that you could choose lightning, that would be like a nb choosing funnel over force pulse, sure its a choice, but not a good one :P

why should stam toons be required to prioritize weapon skills over class skills when magicka builds should be able to do the opposite? that is so insanely biased i dont even know how to respond to it.

there is not a magicka class other than templar that can main anything other that destro in pve

and for your dps issues once again (multiple times in a couple days now) that you are stuck in needing to see people get 50k+ dps, do you not understand that is burst? the only class that will do that in any truly scaled content that has any kind of time to it will be stam dk(and currently they are sitting around 45k dps). i dont need to be challenged into trying to find you a parse, every number i have called out is all over, overload dps can get over 40k in under a minute fight if you keep all your dots up, as i stated if your dots drop (especially in overload) your dps suffers a ton, sure people can burst for 50k+ BUT once you get into content that is scaled to v16 (vmol and new sanctum) those mean nothing because fights are well over 2 min, closer to 5 and 6 min, where sorcs are currently fairly even with other magicka classes in terms of SUSTAINED dps (35k-40k dps). look them up yourself, im not your google machine. infact a 39k VIDEO was posted already for your viewing pleasure :P

for healing and tanking? yeah not the best, but as far as healing goes, why are you using the pet if it sucks, plenty of other healing skills to get it done (thats right your pissed they arent class skills). as for tanking yeah i said they are last, big deal, i main tank a stamina templar, that something you see a ton of in your trials groups? but i make it work and am plenty welcome in groups, people of all levels would rather play with a skilled player on an off class than a class specific build with a sucky driver.

i did not disagree with your opinion that the class is imbalanced, if anything i fortified that fact by calling out the fact that they have a ton of useless skills and passives as well as basically no group utility, i completly agree that they need reworked on the pve side in alot of ways.

you constantly argue that they are behind in terms of dps, yet it seems your talking about v14 content, where burst rules because in the scaled (v16) content, dps numbers wise they are getting very similar results to other magicka classes.

while we are challenging i challenge you to get 35k in any vmol boss fight on your sorc, much less 39k..........lets see it? because multiple sorcs are hitting those numbers in there (39k), which is very respectable and very on par with other classes, go give it a shot?

tl;dr? it would be stupid of me to argue that the class is unbalanced and does not need attn, that could not be further from what im saying, im simply addressing the fact that in the newest scaled content, sorcs are doing just fine dps wise (NOT UTILITY WISE). those dps numbers have already been provided in a video for you to watch. sanctum is being scaled as well, this will mean that dps will go down there as well and sit about the same as vmol, if more things get scaled the same thing will happen.

Grao

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

What classes have all the PvP streamers been playing on since... well, for a solid year +? Oh, that's right, Sorcs and NB's.

I still think the 1 v X celebs will still be rolling as Sorc or NB just because of their ease of escape... that won't change.

I despise Sorcs and NB's... both those classes have had their time in the sun FAR longer than DK's ever did.

"You had your time. The future is our world, Sorcs. The future is our time."

BYE!

Boy you must have missed 1.0 to 1.5 entirely. It was elder dragonknights online.

Also sad that zos has this balancing approach (i think they´re subject to a misconception of what the term "perfect imbalance" means).
Changing abilities/mechanics by 70% this far into the game just proves they´re entirely clueless in terms of actually trying to balance anything.

How many months was it between 1.0 and 1.5?

1.6 hit in February of 2015... even though that was a Stam focus update, 1.6 that is, Sorcs became quite powerful during that time. Basically, we are talking a SOLID 12+ months where Magicka Sorcs have been VERY dominate.

Magicka DK's are still bottom barrel... it is possible that with the changes coming to mist form, that MAYBE Magicka DK's will have a chance to get away from zerg baddies.

Magicka Sorcs will remain powerful though even with the so called nerfs.

And, if you want to play Stamina so badly... roll a NB or DK... The idea of stamina sorcs just does not make any sense to begin with...

OMG!!!!!!

Just because F**KING Cyrodiil is in the center of the f**king map doesn't make you a**hole PvPers the center of the f**king world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously. How many f**king times do we have to come and explain the problem we have is not with Sorcerer in f**king PvP????? Meanwhile PvE sorcerers have been the weakest class for about a year and saw only nerfs for pretty much a year and a half!

F**k PvP and f**k PvPers, you guys are so f**king self centered!

You sure rage hard for someone belonging to the part of ESO's population that has seen by far the most attention these past two years.

Good job at disqualifying yourself.

Yeah, you guys only have one little piece of the map, but they sure balance everything thinking only about PvP, nothing about PvE.

Lava_Croft

Grao wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

What classes have all the PvP streamers been playing on since... well, for a solid year +? Oh, that's right, Sorcs and NB's.

I still think the 1 v X celebs will still be rolling as Sorc or NB just because of their ease of escape... that won't change.

I despise Sorcs and NB's... both those classes have had their time in the sun FAR longer than DK's ever did.

"You had your time. The future is our world, Sorcs. The future is our time."

BYE!

Boy you must have missed 1.0 to 1.5 entirely. It was elder dragonknights online.

Also sad that zos has this balancing approach (i think they´re subject to a misconception of what the term "perfect imbalance" means).
Changing abilities/mechanics by 70% this far into the game just proves they´re entirely clueless in terms of actually trying to balance anything.

How many months was it between 1.0 and 1.5?

1.6 hit in February of 2015... even though that was a Stam focus update, 1.6 that is, Sorcs became quite powerful during that time. Basically, we are talking a SOLID 12+ months where Magicka Sorcs have been VERY dominate.

Magicka DK's are still bottom barrel... it is possible that with the changes coming to mist form, that MAYBE Magicka DK's will have a chance to get away from zerg baddies.

Magicka Sorcs will remain powerful though even with the so called nerfs.

And, if you want to play Stamina so badly... roll a NB or DK... The idea of stamina sorcs just does not make any sense to begin with...

OMG!!!!!!

Just because F**KING Cyrodiil is in the center of the f**king map doesn't make you a**hole PvPers the center of the f**king world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously. How many f**king times do we have to come and explain the problem we have is not with Sorcerer in f**king PvP????? Meanwhile PvE sorcerers have been the weakest class for about a year and saw only nerfs for pretty much a year and a half!

F**k PvP and f**k PvPers, you guys are so f**king self centered!

You sure rage hard for someone belonging to the part of ESO's population that has seen by far the most attention these past two years.

Good job at disqualifying yourself.

Yeah, you guys only have one little piece of the map, but they sure balance everything thinking only about PvP, nothing about PvE.

Keep up the hyperbole.

Grao

liv3mind wrote: »

@Grao i wouldnt argue for anything other than inferno staff, everyone is tied to it for WOE, the fire tick is too good to ignore. so no i will not argue that you could choose lightning, that would be like a nb choosing funnel over force pulse, sure its a choice, but not a good one :P

why should stam toons be required to prioritize weapon skills over class skills when magicka builds should be able to do the opposite? that is so insanely biased i dont even know how to respond to it.

there is not a magicka class other than templar that can main anything other that destro in pve

and for your dps issues once again (multiple times in a couple days now) that you are stuck in needing to see people get 50k+ dps, do you not understand that is burst? the only class that will do that in any truly scaled content that has any kind of time to it will be stam dk(and currently they are sitting around 45k dps). i dont need to be challenged into trying to find you a parse, every number i have called out is all over, overload dps can get over 40k in under a minute fight if you keep all your dots up, as i stated if your dots drop (especially in overload) your dps suffers a ton, sure people can burst for 50k+ BUT once you get into content that is scaled to v16 (vmol and new sanctum) those mean nothing because fights are well over 2 min, closer to 5 and 6 min, where sorcs are currently fairly even with other magicka classes in terms of SUSTAINED dps (35k-40k dps). look them up yourself, im not your google machine. infact a 39k VIDEO was posted already for your viewing pleasure :P

for healing and tanking? yeah not the best, but as far as healing goes, why are you using the pet if it sucks, plenty of other healing skills to get it done (thats right your pissed they arent class skills). as for tanking yeah i said they are last, big deal, i main tank a stamina templar, that something you see a ton of in your trials groups? but i make it work and am plenty welcome in groups, people of all levels would rather play with a skilled player on an off class than a class specific build with a sucky driver.

i did not disagree with your opinion that the class is imbalanced, if anything i fortified that fact by calling out the fact that they have a ton of useless skills and passives as well as basically no group utility, i completly agree that they need reworked on the pve side in alot of ways.

you constantly argue that they are behind in terms of dps, yet it seems your talking about v14 content, where burst rules because in the scaled (v16) content, dps numbers wise they are getting very similar results to other magicka classes.

while we are challenging i challenge you to get 35k in any vmol boss fight on your sorc, much less 39k..........lets see it? because multiple sorcs are hitting those numbers in there (39k), which is very respectable and very on par with other classes, go give it a shot?

tl;dr? it would be stupid of me to argue that the class is unbalanced and does not need attn, that could not be further from what im saying, im simply addressing the fact that in the newest scaled content, sorcs are doing just fine dps wise (NOT UTILITY WISE). those dps numbers have already been provided in a video for you to watch. sanctum is being scaled as well, this will mean that dps will go down there as well and sit about the same as vmol, if more things get scaled the same thing will happen.

First, Fire Staff is not good for sorcerers, we are forced into it because its light and heavy attacks are too superior, but the overall damage we do using Staff abilities with a lightning staff is by far superior thanks to the passives in storm calling. I tested it. If we weren't forced to use a damn staff as our main weapon, our light and heavy attack weapon we could slot a lightning staff in the back bar and that alone would buff our DPS.

Second, stamina builds should rely more heavily in weapons because there is only one weapon tree available for magicka builds. Meanwhile there are 4 different stamina weapon trees, that alone shows that the game was intended to have Stamina builds focus on weapons and classes focus mostly on magicka with the occasinal stamina ability that helps stamina support their damage done mainly through their weapon. It is a matter of math and simple logic, I am sorry if it is beyond you.

Third, you are incorrect. 50K DPS is possible sustained in certain classes. 55K is actually burst and either way, sorcerers, the class with the least amount of utility in the game, can't get past 40 -41k DPS.

Forth, sorcerer tanking was already the least viable before this patch, but with this patch it is awful. As for healing, any class that tries to heal without having class skills that heal will suck. Our only class heals are the new Negate and a pet that actually does pretty good heals, but dies way too easily.

And finally, as to our results in the current late game content. A class that offers no support, no utility to raid group has, by rule to out DPS the other classes. It is the only reason you take a class that is pure glass cannon, no utility into a raid, for great DPS. We don't have that. We are best in third among the DPS in Vmol, but we are last in utility... By the way, the reason the DPS charts are different in said late game content has nothing to do with burst, but with how the fight moves and the fact sorcerers use Damage Ults instead of the utility ults other classes are forced to use. There is a complete lack of balance in this class for PvE is absurd and the only reason you are perfectly fine with is because you don't main a sorcerer.

iam117

@grao im not going to debate you further, funny though that all of a sudden you went from a sorc cant get 40k+ to now they can do 40-41k? google works no? keep looking, they go higher. i cited specific fights, in which i gave current numbers, specifically vmol where dps is sitting (on average) 35-40k, and sorc is right in there, the highest in there so far of confirmed dps is around 45k atm on a stam dk afaik. if you know of higher numbers on the specific fights i cited, please enlighten.

your right i dont main a sorcerer, reason? i know how mmo works, classes come and go, sorc had its time, it will be op again, they all rotate in and out, sure sorc has needed it longest but it will come, a little patience and an alt would do you some good if your not happy with your main, that or go to b&s as you yourself suggested?

KenaPKK

Grao wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

What classes have all the PvP streamers been playing on since... well, for a solid year +? Oh, that's right, Sorcs and NB's.

I still think the 1 v X celebs will still be rolling as Sorc or NB just because of their ease of escape... that won't change.

I despise Sorcs and NB's... both those classes have had their time in the sun FAR longer than DK's ever did.

"You had your time. The future is our world, Sorcs. The future is our time."

BYE!

Boy you must have missed 1.0 to 1.5 entirely. It was elder dragonknights online.

Also sad that zos has this balancing approach (i think they´re subject to a misconception of what the term "perfect imbalance" means).
Changing abilities/mechanics by 70% this far into the game just proves they´re entirely clueless in terms of actually trying to balance anything.

How many months was it between 1.0 and 1.5?

1.6 hit in February of 2015... even though that was a Stam focus update, 1.6 that is, Sorcs became quite powerful during that time. Basically, we are talking a SOLID 12+ months where Magicka Sorcs have been VERY dominate.

Magicka DK's are still bottom barrel... it is possible that with the changes coming to mist form, that MAYBE Magicka DK's will have a chance to get away from zerg baddies.

Magicka Sorcs will remain powerful though even with the so called nerfs.

And, if you want to play Stamina so badly... roll a NB or DK... The idea of stamina sorcs just does not make any sense to begin with...

OMG!!!!!!

Just because F**KING Cyrodiil is in the center of the f**king map doesn't make you a**hole PvPers the center of the f**king world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously. How many f**king times do we have to come and explain the problem we have is not with Sorcerer in f**king PvP????? Meanwhile PvE sorcerers have been the weakest class for about a year and saw only nerfs for pretty much a year and a half!

F**k PvP and f**k PvPers, you guys are so f**king self centered!

Bought an AvAvA PvP game advertised as centered around large scale PvP combat. Complains when PvPers speak up demanding balance.

Has a meltdown on the forums. Grow up dude. We want sorc to be balanced for you too, but you can't control players in PvP like you can automated PvE engagements. Player characters need to be balanced around PvP first, and then PvE mobs and bosses need to be balanced around the player characters. That's how it's supposed to be, but ZOS keeps crossing the wires.

ZOS just doesn't understand how to balance their game.

Grao

liv3mind wrote: »

@grao im not going to debate you further, funny though that all of a sudden you went from a sorc cant get 40k+ to now they can do 40-41k? google works no? keep looking, they go higher. i cited specific fights, in which i gave current numbers, specifically vmol where dps is sitting (on average) 35-40k, and sorc is right in there, the highest in there so far of confirmed dps is around 45k atm on a stam dk afaik. if you know of higher numbers on the specific fights i cited, please enlighten.

your right i dont main a sorcerer, reason? i know how mmo works, classes come and go, sorc had its time, it will be op again, they all rotate in and out, sure sorc has needed it longest but it will come, a little patience and an alt would do you some good if your not happy with your main, that or go to b&s as you yourself suggested?

Wow, you are arguing against me rounding a value from 40.08 to 40k? That just proves the lenghs you are willing to go to troll... Seriously. And no, sorcerer DPS does not go higher.

By the way, how MMOs work every class in PvE has at least one aspect that shines. I know since I did play WoW since vanilla. Yes, there were times certain classes had severe issues, like Warlock, that was hell, but it wasn't for a year. Blizzard is a competent enough company to fix their *** in about 4-6 months.

A year later and sorcerers are still the worse DPS, the worse utility, the worse tanks and the worst healers. Yeah, they are perfect. That is exactly how MMOs are supposed to work.

By the way between 45 k and and 35 k there is a chasm of 10k and DKs provide far better raid utility than a sorcerer.

iam117

Grao wrote: »

Wow, you are arguing against me rounding a value from 40.08 to 40k? That just proves the lenghs you are willing to go to troll... Seriously. And no, sorcerer DPS does not go higher.

By the way, how MMOs work every class in PvE has at least one aspect that shines. I know since I did play WoW since vanilla. Yes, there were times certain classes had severe issues, like Warlock, that was hell, but it wasn't for a year. Blizzard is a competent enough company to fix their *** in about 4-6 months.

A year later and sorcerers are still the worse DPS, the worse utility, the worse tanks and the worst healers. Yeah, they are perfect. That is exactly how MMOs are supposed to work.

By the way between 45 k and and 35 k there is a chasm of 10k and DKs provide far better raid utility than a sorcerer.

*clap clap clap you can math. and you can read, congrats, except you failed to read that i agree they need a rebalance, and are worst healers and tanks? never once did i even come close to stating they are perfect, infact i said they need rebalace and rework more and longer than any class. your issues are obviously with zeni and how they run their game, as does most players (myself included) but it does not take enjoyment out of it, if you like the game enough find a way to keep enjoying it (reroll), if you can find your melee caster in another game, then go play it.

rofl you been name calling more than you have been posting usefull info of late.

Grao

liv3mind wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Wow, you are arguing against me rounding a value from 40.08 to 40k? That just proves the lenghs you are willing to go to troll... Seriously. And no, sorcerer DPS does not go higher.

By the way, how MMOs work every class in PvE has at least one aspect that shines. I know since I did play WoW since vanilla. Yes, there were times certain classes had severe issues, like Warlock, that was hell, but it wasn't for a year. Blizzard is a competent enough company to fix their *** in about 4-6 months.

A year later and sorcerers are still the worse DPS, the worse utility, the worse tanks and the worst healers. Yeah, they are perfect. That is exactly how MMOs are supposed to work.

By the way between 45 k and and 35 k there is a chasm of 10k and DKs provide far better raid utility than a sorcerer.

*clap clap clap you can math. and you can read, congrats, except you failed to read that i agree they need a rebalance, and are worst healers and tanks? never once did i even come close to stating they are perfect, infact i said they need rebalace and rework more and longer than any class. your issues are obviously with zeni and how they run their game, as does most players (myself included) but it does not take enjoyment out of it, if you like the game enough find a way to keep enjoying it (reroll), if you can find your melee caster in another game, then go play it.

rofl you been name calling more than you have been posting usefull info of late.

I thought you weren't going to argue anymore? Oki, I will help you by not even reading your post

iam117

Grao wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

*clap clap clap you can math. and you can read, congrats, except you failed to read that i agree they need a rebalance, and are worst healers and tanks? never once did i even come close to stating they are perfect, infact i said they need rebalace and rework more and longer than any class. your issues are obviously with zeni and how they run their game, as does most players (myself included) but it does not take enjoyment out of it, if you like the game enough find a way to keep enjoying it (reroll), if you can find your melee caster in another game, then go play it.

rofl you been name calling more than you have been posting usefull info of late.

I thought you weren't going to argue anymore? A troll and a liar. Oki.

there was no argument in that at all, i basically agreed with things you have said in every sentence, you couldn't have made my point easier, thanks and again with the name calling? *tsk tsk

iam117

here is a great sorc tank build for pve end game, he is using it in Vmol as well
tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-lightning-ward-endgame-magicka-sorcerer-tank-pve/

KenaPKK

jknight201 wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

@Grao I have to agree with @KenaPKK that it is important for the devs to balance around pvp first, and pve second. If they do not do this, PVP gets ruined. I've seen it time and again on many games, and this one is even no different. The DK talon spamming perma-batswarm flame lash and dragon leaping vampire is permanently seared on the memories of many pvp'ers for this very reason. Heck that had people who were able to stack bat swarm on top of bat swarm at one point because of this. Once he developers have a handle on PvP balance it makes it easier for them to then take the pvp design and apply it to pve. DCUO did a pretty good job of this.

I do realize your concerns though @Grao. I personally think the Sorcerer class is a neat class but gets 'locked in' on certain elements many of which aren't advantageous - like pets. I can see why Pet builds are not happy about getting a brief shield, and I think a suggestion that would allow for the pet-morph of the shield to last longer on pets or apply some other long term benefit (a HoT or such to them) might be an idea worth pursuing. The Sorcerer as it stands is a hard class to balance for a lot of reasons that I've iterated in other posts. I personally agree that the commitment they have to toggles with the class might not be the most fun option in a game where you have so few button options to begin with. I realize the frustrations, all I'm trying to say to you is to not give up hope. Sorcerer is too popular for them to let it shrivel on the vine.

When you start excluding half of your player base from consideration when balancing a class, that is when the game gets ruined. So your point here is, it is ok for PvE to be ruined as long as PvP is balanced? Well, I am sorry but that sounds just a little bit selfish, how would you feel if PvP was ruined so PvE was ok? I bet you wouldn't feel so great and wouldn't be here defending Zenimax's balancing strategies.

And this is why you're not on the balance team.

You first balance player characters and abilities around PvP, and then you balance PvE around the resulting player characters and abilities. You can control simple PvE mob stats and AI, but you can't control players.

That's how it works -- or at least how it should work. Lately, ZOS has been balancing PvP around a static PvE, resulting in a massive exodus of long time PvP players because PvP is bad right now. It's very bad. Go play PvP instead of sitting in your easy mode PvE bubble, and you'd know these things.

Shame. I was actually agreeing with some of the points you had made in the thread, but after this last bit of garbage - it's obvious you really don't know much about the game or the differences between PVP and PVE. And obviously nothing about game balance.

PVP is bad. PVE is not an "easy mode bubble". The game needs to be balanced so that it's possible to have a PVE build be at least OK in PVP play. And vice versa. Right now, it's not. When I take my average PVE character into PVP I get wrecked. Instantly. Not "oh, let me make a few tweaks and maybe I can help out". No. Wrecked. That's why I stopped playing PVP. And the PVP "balance" crap Zos is forcing on us is spilling into PVE play as well.

If your PvE build is truly a solid PvE build, then you could definitely jump right in with zero changes and be relevant and "help out." If you're getting rekt that hard, the problem is not your build. Builds matter much less in PvP than they do in PvE. The problem is that you don't have enough understanding or experience of PvP. PvP is completely different from PvE, and the learning curve is steep. You can improve at it and enjoy it if you are patient and put the time into it, but do not expect to just jump right in and perform as well as you might in your repetitive, AI PvE world.

But a word of warning, the PvP environment is pretty bad right now. We're losing organized guilds left and right because of how ZOS has neglected PvP performance and balance since the 1.6 patch over a year ago, so there are massive, disorganized zergs and very few knowledgeable players left trying to teach or lead new PvPers. If you would like to talk about adapting your PvE build for PvP or about how to play differently in PvP, then feel free to message me.

As for PvE, yes it is easy. It's putting together a min/maxed build then learning and executing the same repetitive mechanics in every run. And the only max level PvE group material we've had for a LONG time is vMoL, which was just released in the last patch. That is the only challenging material left, and completing it will be as routine as completing vICP in time, just like vICP did a short while after the v16 upgrade. The other trials are under leveled and neglected, and Maelstrom is a a pushover that you play solo...in an mmo for goodness' sake.

Oh, and PvPers were the first to complete Maelstrom. PvEers struggled with it and responded poorly to it initially because it forces self-sufficiency. But now that we've all done it a bunch, it's a minimal challenge with poor loot tables.

Anyway, I said ZOS should balance PvP first the PvE around the resulting player characters. I didn't sat that's what they do. ZOS sucks at balancing and has neglected and screwed over both spheres of the game.

The easier alternative would be to give abilities and passives separate PvP and PvE behaviors, but they didn't think of that before it was too late.

Valrien

KenaPKK wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

@Grao I have to agree with @KenaPKK that it is important for the devs to balance around pvp first, and pve second. If they do not do this, PVP gets ruined. I've seen it time and again on many games, and this one is even no different. The DK talon spamming perma-batswarm flame lash and dragon leaping vampire is permanently seared on the memories of many pvp'ers for this very reason. Heck that had people who were able to stack bat swarm on top of bat swarm at one point because of this. Once he developers have a handle on PvP balance it makes it easier for them to then take the pvp design and apply it to pve. DCUO did a pretty good job of this.

I do realize your concerns though @Grao. I personally think the Sorcerer class is a neat class but gets 'locked in' on certain elements many of which aren't advantageous - like pets. I can see why Pet builds are not happy about getting a brief shield, and I think a suggestion that would allow for the pet-morph of the shield to last longer on pets or apply some other long term benefit (a HoT or such to them) might be an idea worth pursuing. The Sorcerer as it stands is a hard class to balance for a lot of reasons that I've iterated in other posts. I personally agree that the commitment they have to toggles with the class might not be the most fun option in a game where you have so few button options to begin with. I realize the frustrations, all I'm trying to say to you is to not give up hope. Sorcerer is too popular for them to let it shrivel on the vine.

When you start excluding half of your player base from consideration when balancing a class, that is when the game gets ruined. So your point here is, it is ok for PvE to be ruined as long as PvP is balanced? Well, I am sorry but that sounds just a little bit selfish, how would you feel if PvP was ruined so PvE was ok? I bet you wouldn't feel so great and wouldn't be here defending Zenimax's balancing strategies.

And this is why you're not on the balance team.

You first balance player characters and abilities around PvP, and then you balance PvE around the resulting player characters and abilities. You can control simple PvE mob stats and AI, but you can't control players.

That's how it works -- or at least how it should work. Lately, ZOS has been balancing PvP around a static PvE, resulting in a massive exodus of long time PvP players because PvP is bad right now. It's very bad. Go play PvP instead of sitting in your easy mode PvE bubble, and you'd know these things.

Shame. I was actually agreeing with some of the points you had made in the thread, but after this last bit of garbage - it's obvious you really don't know much about the game or the differences between PVP and PVE. And obviously nothing about game balance.

PVP is bad. PVE is not an "easy mode bubble". The game needs to be balanced so that it's possible to have a PVE build be at least OK in PVP play. And vice versa. Right now, it's not. When I take my average PVE character into PVP I get wrecked. Instantly. Not "oh, let me make a few tweaks and maybe I can help out". No. Wrecked. That's why I stopped playing PVP. And the PVP "balance" crap Zos is forcing on us is spilling into PVE play as well.

If your PvE build is truly a solid PvE build, then you could definitely jump right in with zero changes and be relevant and "help out." If you're getting rekt that hard, the problem is not your build. Builds matter much less in PvP than they do in PvE. The problem is that you don't have enough understanding or experience of PvP. PvP is completely different from PvE, and the learning curve is steep. You can improve at it and enjoy it if you are patient and put the time into it, but do not expect to just jump right in and perform as well as you might in your repetitive, AI PvE world.

But a word of warning, the PvP environment is pretty bad right now. We're losing organized guilds left and right because of how ZOS has neglected PvP performance and balance since the 1.6 patch over a year ago, so there are massive, disorganized zergs and very few knowledgeable players left trying to teach or lead new PvPers. If you would like to talk about adapting your PvE build for PvP or about how to play differently in PvP, then feel free to message me.

As for PvE, yes it is easy. It's putting together a min/maxed build then learning and executing the same repetitive mechanics in every run. And the only max level PvE group material we've had for a LONG time is vMoL, which was just released in the last patch. That is the only challenging material left, and completing it will be as routine as completing vICP in time, just like vICP did a short while after the v16 upgrade. The other trials are under leveled and neglected, and Maelstrom is a a pushover that you play solo...in an mmo for goodness' sake.

Oh, and PvPers were the first to complete Maelstrom. PvEers struggled with it and responded poorly to it initially because it forces self-sufficiency. But now that we've all done it a bunch, it's a minimal challenge with poor loot tables.

Anyway, I said ZOS should balance PvP first the PvE around the resulting player characters. I didn't sat that's what they do. ZOS sucks at balancing and has neglected and screwed over both spheres of the game.

The easier alternative would be to give abilities and passives separate PvP and PvE behaviors, but they didn't think of that before it was too late.

Actually, the first player to finish vMA was a PvE player.

@Dymence

Cathexis

Can someone enlighten me as to how sorcs are dead.

I just leveled my mag sorc. I assume they are just killing the classes I want to play, which means next I'll be making a nightblade, and then a dk.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Cathexis wrote: »

Can someone enlighten me as to how sorcs are dead.

I just leveled my mag sorc. I assume they are just killing the classes I want to play, which means next I'll be making a nightblade, and then a dk.

Basically killing off our only decent self heal and then nerfing shields a ton and then don't give them anything to compensate for it, sorcs still have an almost non-existant way to support groups and no bigger damage to show for the lack of group utility. So basically, anything a sorc can do, you can do better with other classes.

Tannus15

liv3mind wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

*clap clap clap you can math. and you can read, congrats, except you failed to read that i agree they need a rebalance, and are worst healers and tanks? never once did i even come close to stating they are perfect, infact i said they need rebalace and rework more and longer than any class. your issues are obviously with zeni and how they run their game, as does most players (myself included) but it does not take enjoyment out of it, if you like the game enough find a way to keep enjoying it (reroll), if you can find your melee caster in another game, then go play it.

rofl you been name calling more than you have been posting usefull info of late.

I thought you weren't going to argue anymore? A troll and a liar. Oki.

there was no argument in that at all, i basically agreed with things you have said in every sentence, you couldn't have made my point easier, thanks and again with the name calling? *tsk tsk

Sorry guys, but this is hilarious.

I've never seen two people so vehemently agree with each other. I mean, you've basically both said "Sorceror DPS is on par / close to other classes but they have no utility or versatility and need to be reworked" and then somehow it's pages of rage.

iam117

Tannus15 wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

*clap clap clap you can math. and you can read, congrats, except you failed to read that i agree they need a rebalance, and are worst healers and tanks? never once did i even come close to stating they are perfect, infact i said they need rebalace and rework more and longer than any class. your issues are obviously with zeni and how they run their game, as does most players (myself included) but it does not take enjoyment out of it, if you like the game enough find a way to keep enjoying it (reroll), if you can find your melee caster in another game, then go play it.

rofl you been name calling more than you have been posting usefull info of late.

I thought you weren't going to argue anymore? A troll and a liar. Oki.

there was no argument in that at all, i basically agreed with things you have said in every sentence, you couldn't have made my point easier, thanks and again with the name calling? *tsk tsk

Sorry guys, but this is hilarious.

I've never seen two people so vehemently agree with each other. I mean, you've basically both said "Sorceror DPS is on par / close to other classes but they have no utility or versatility and need to be reworked" and then somehow it's pages of rage.

oh my [snip] thank you rofl, finally im not the only one who sees it

[Edit to remove profanity]

Tannus15

Cathexis wrote: »

Can someone enlighten me as to how sorcs are dead.

I just leveled my mag sorc. I assume they are just killing the classes I want to play, which means next I'll be making a nightblade, and then a dk.

Sorcs are losing their primary class healing skill, purge, as well as having their shields duration nerfed hard. This means they can't afford to take damage since they can't heal it, and they need to spend way more magika to keep their shields up in a fight of any duration.

Experienced sorcs are saying that doing vMA is basically pointless since any other class can do it way easier. Sorc DPS bring no utility to raids / groups and their numbers are comparable or under the other classes anyway.

From what I gather sorc burst damage is still ok, so in PvP they are still viable, but PvE endgame they are pretty wrecked.

Stamina sorcs in particular are in a terrible place with very poor DPS and no utility.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Tannus15 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Can someone enlighten me as to how sorcs are dead.

I just leveled my mag sorc. I assume they are just killing the classes I want to play, which means next I'll be making a nightblade, and then a dk.

Sorcs are losing their primary class healing skill, purge, as well as having their shields duration nerfed hard. This means they can't afford to take damage since they can't heal it, and they need to spend way more magika to keep their shields up in a fight of any duration.

Experienced sorcs are saying that doing vMA is basically pointless since any other class can do it way easier. Sorc DPS bring no utility to raids / groups and their numbers are comparable or under the other classes anyway.

From what I gather sorc burst damage is still ok, so in PvP they are still viable, but PvE endgame they are pretty wrecked.

Stamina sorcs in particular are in a terrible place with very poor DPS and no utility.

Surge* just had to correct you on that, lol.

Wollust

Grao wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Rohaus wrote: »

What classes have all the PvP streamers been playing on since... well, for a solid year +? Oh, that's right, Sorcs and NB's.

I still think the 1 v X celebs will still be rolling as Sorc or NB just because of their ease of escape... that won't change.

I despise Sorcs and NB's... both those classes have had their time in the sun FAR longer than DK's ever did.

"You had your time. The future is our world, Sorcs. The future is our time."

BYE!

Boy you must have missed 1.0 to 1.5 entirely. It was elder dragonknights online.

Also sad that zos has this balancing approach (i think they´re subject to a misconception of what the term "perfect imbalance" means).
Changing abilities/mechanics by 70% this far into the game just proves they´re entirely clueless in terms of actually trying to balance anything.

How many months was it between 1.0 and 1.5?

1.6 hit in February of 2015... even though that was a Stam focus update, 1.6 that is, Sorcs became quite powerful during that time. Basically, we are talking a SOLID 12+ months where Magicka Sorcs have been VERY dominate.

Magicka DK's are still bottom barrel... it is possible that with the changes coming to mist form, that MAYBE Magicka DK's will have a chance to get away from zerg baddies.

Magicka Sorcs will remain powerful though even with the so called nerfs.

And, if you want to play Stamina so badly... roll a NB or DK... The idea of stamina sorcs just does not make any sense to begin with...

OMG!!!!!!

Just because F**KING Cyrodiil is in the center of the f**king map doesn't make you a**hole PvPers the center of the f**king world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously. How many f**king times do we have to come and explain the problem we have is not with Sorcerer in f**king PvP????? Meanwhile PvE sorcerers have been the weakest class for about a year and saw only nerfs for pretty much a year and a half!

F**k PvP and f**k PvPers, you guys are so f**king self centered!

triggered

Grao

Tannus15 wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

*clap clap clap you can math. and you can read, congrats, except you failed to read that i agree they need a rebalance, and are worst healers and tanks? never once did i even come close to stating they are perfect, infact i said they need rebalace and rework more and longer than any class. your issues are obviously with zeni and how they run their game, as does most players (myself included) but it does not take enjoyment out of it, if you like the game enough find a way to keep enjoying it (reroll), if you can find your melee caster in another game, then go play it.

rofl you been name calling more than you have been posting usefull info of late.

I thought you weren't going to argue anymore? A troll and a liar. Oki.

there was no argument in that at all, i basically agreed with things you have said in every sentence, you couldn't have made my point easier, thanks and again with the name calling? *tsk tsk

Sorry guys, but this is hilarious.

I've never seen two people so vehemently agree with each other. I mean, you've basically both said "Sorceror DPS is on par / close to other classes but they have no utility or versatility and need to be reworked" and then somehow it's pages of rage.

THe reason for my frustration is that while admitting sorcerers have all this problems for over a year now, he still says it is perfectly fine and 'part of MMO'. I am sorry, one year of a class being completely screwed, seeing nerfs on every patch and no compensatory buffs is not normal for MMOs and it is stupid. Arguing that this is normal and that we should just roll over is trolling and baiting and purely infuriating.

Tannus15

Grao wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

*clap clap clap you can math. and you can read, congrats, except you failed to read that i agree they need a rebalance, and are worst healers and tanks? never once did i even come close to stating they are perfect, infact i said they need rebalace and rework more and longer than any class. your issues are obviously with zeni and how they run their game, as does most players (myself included) but it does not take enjoyment out of it, if you like the game enough find a way to keep enjoying it (reroll), if you can find your melee caster in another game, then go play it.

rofl you been name calling more than you have been posting usefull info of late.

I thought you weren't going to argue anymore? A troll and a liar. Oki.

there was no argument in that at all, i basically agreed with things you have said in every sentence, you couldn't have made my point easier, thanks and again with the name calling? *tsk tsk

Sorry guys, but this is hilarious.

I've never seen two people so vehemently agree with each other. I mean, you've basically both said "Sorceror DPS is on par / close to other classes but they have no utility or versatility and need to be reworked" and then somehow it's pages of rage.

THe reason for my frustration is that while admitting sorcerers have all this problems for over a year now, he still says it is perfectly fine and 'part of MMO'. I am sorry, one year of a class being completely screwed, seeing nerfs on every patch and no compensatory buffs is not normal for MMOs and it is stupid. Arguing that this is normal and that we should just roll over is trolling and baiting and purely infuriating.

Yeah, I can see that. It's basically his philosophy for dealing with the fact that Zenimax (apparantly) aren't listening.

Personally I'll no doubt shelve my Sorc once DB hits. If nothing else ZoS will be looking at stats on what classes are getting played and if there is a large drop off of Sorcs at end game then they will need to address it.

Hopefully Sorcs will get their day in the sun, but it's certainly not this update.

It's also worth noting that I find my stam sorc my most enjoyable character to play on live, yet the surge nerf so completely guts the style that I'll be levelling my stam blade in DB.

DaveMoeDee

Just level 2 of each class.

iam117

Tannus15 wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

liv3mind wrote: »

*clap clap clap you can math. and you can read, congrats, except you failed to read that i agree they need a rebalance, and are worst healers and tanks? never once did i even come close to stating they are perfect, infact i said they need rebalace and rework more and longer than any class. your issues are obviously with zeni and how they run their game, as does most players (myself included) but it does not take enjoyment out of it, if you like the game enough find a way to keep enjoying it (reroll), if you can find your melee caster in another game, then go play it.

rofl you been name calling more than you have been posting usefull info of late.

I thought you weren't going to argue anymore? A troll and a liar. Oki.

there was no argument in that at all, i basically agreed with things you have said in every sentence, you couldn't have made my point easier, thanks and again with the name calling? *tsk tsk

Sorry guys, but this is hilarious.

I've never seen two people so vehemently agree with each other. I mean, you've basically both said "Sorceror DPS is on par / close to other classes but they have no utility or versatility and need to be reworked" and then somehow it's pages of rage.

THe reason for my frustration is that while admitting sorcerers have all this problems for over a year now, he still says it is perfectly fine and 'part of MMO'. I am sorry, one year of a class being completely screwed, seeing nerfs on every patch and no compensatory buffs is not normal for MMOs and it is stupid. Arguing that this is normal and that we should just roll over is trolling and baiting and purely infuriating.

Yeah, I can see that. It's basically his philosophy for dealing with the fact that Zenimax (apparantly) aren't listening.

Personally I'll no doubt shelve my Sorc once DB hits. If nothing else ZoS will be looking at stats on what classes are getting played and if there is a large drop off of Sorcs at end game then they will need to address it.

Hopefully Sorcs will get their day in the sun, but it's certainly not this update.

It's also worth noting that I find my stam sorc my most enjoyable character to play on live, yet the surge nerf so completely guts the style that I'll be levelling my stam blade in DB.

I definately do not think it's fine, just that class fluctuations happen in mmo's. Its unavoidable when you change skills and passives. time frame sucks, no doubt, but it is what it is at this point. People will continue to play them or they will reroll like many are. I was excited to stam sorcerer this time around in pve, and may still if the aoe is strong enough in vmol, but if not oh well, the class will get reworked at some point, and like you stated likely sooner than later because of the exodus (even more than before) of sorcerer players to other classes.

Lord_Hev

Sorc is dead in PvP.


Why play my sorc when I can just do a 45k magic build on my DK, run Dampen magic with destro/resto, have 88 into elemental and hardy, and have access to wings?


Why play my sorc when I can just lvl a NB and run 45k magic, use dampen magic. And have a vastly superior re-position/escape ability that can be spammed infinitely? And can just replace my crushing shock with a vastly cheaper Swallow Soul that not only does more dmg... but also heals me(more reliably then surge now, lmao)


Why play my sorc when I can just play Templar and hide my heals behind dampen magic and replace my frags with an even harder hitting ability that also heal-debuffs, and be able to build a house?



Why play my sorc? So I can stack 2 shields that only last 6 seconds, do zero dps because im constantly refreshing shields, and then die burning my magic trying to streak away while I try to "re-position" myself with a cost-stack increasing punishing skill on top of having to spam all my shields like a god-damn noodle? ****ing ridiculous. I'd sooner take shields with a cast-time over this.


People keep down-playing the duration nerf. You just dont get it do you? I am not already refreshing my shields every 6 seconds against another player. This is not a table-top RPG where we are taking turns. I can have plenty of fights where I do not need to refresh my shield. There is a gazzilion factors going on in a fight, key among them, CROWD CONTROL. All it takes now, is a CC within 4 seconds of a sorc's DPS rotation, to sneak in a heavy burst just as the shield conveniently expires... because it only lasts 6 seconds.


@KenaPKK


I do not go into NB threads acting like i'm a seasoned NB and telling others how to adapt. Please, do not come into a sorc thread and try to suger-coat things you cannot understand on a level of personal experience. I have been playing sorc since the very start of this game. I have been running the "1.6 sorc" build before it was even a thing, at a time when soft-caps existed. (2.7k magic as a wood elf with no undaunted and 2.5k health.)


Do not come into this thread, and tell me sorcs are fine. Sorcs are not fine. There is literally no reason to play one other then having negate for group fights. Because of not only the duration nerf, but every magic build now having Dampen Magic as an effective Hardened ward, what is the point? I can throw on my exact build on any class and pull off better results, as the other classes have defensive abilities not reliant on shields for self-preservation. So now, they have this privilege once unique to sorc while at the same time, severely reducing sorc's signature defense. So not only is this homogenization(like every stupid stam build looking the same, *yawn*) now all magic builds can play the same, and do it better then sorc can.



@ZOS

It actually enrages me knowing that these balance decisions could even pass through in the first place. But what did I expect? We are talking about the same developer team that think's it's fair-play to include a damn snare to every singe ability in game.

NBrookus

Cathexis wrote: »

Can someone enlighten me as to how sorcs are dead.

I just leveled my mag sorc. I assume they are just killing the classes I want to play, which means next I'll be making a nightblade, and then a dk.

If you plan on using your sorc to do quests and 4 man dungeons, the class is quite capable of all that even with the nerfs. When people say sorc is dead, they are talking about competitive trials, vMA, and the dismantling of the last bit of build variety remaining in PvP.

If your goal is to stay on the leaderboards of vMoL... you may want to cut your losses on your sorc character. Otherwise, play your sorc if s/he is fun for you.

KenaPKK

@Lord_Hev sounds like you have more of a problem with the Harness change (a ridiculous change) giving every magicka user a big shield than the sorc ones. I agree with that completely.

As for the rest, sorcs still play fundamentally differently than the other classes and excel at mobility, defensive utility, and burst damage just as much relative to the others as they did before DB.

My opinions are based on playing with and against the best sorcs in NA, discussing the changes with them, dueling sorcs on PTS, and playing my magicka sorc in open world for a few months now and doing quite well on him. I'm no longer nightblade-only.

Alpheu5

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Sorc is dead in PvP.
Why play my sorc when I can just do a 45k magic build on my DK, run Dampen magic with destro/resto, have 88 into elemental and hardy, and have access to wings?


Why play my sorc when I can just lvl a NB and run 45k magic, use dampen magic. And have a vastly superior re-position/escape ability that can be spammed infinitely? And can just replace my crushing shock with a vastly cheaper Swallow Soul that not only does more dmg... but also heals me(more reliably then surge now, lmao)


Why play my sorc when I can just play Templar and hide my heals behind dampen magic and replace my frags with an even harder hitting ability that also heal-debuffs, and be able to build a house?



Why play my sorc? So I can stack 2 shields that only last 6 seconds, do zero dps because im constantly refreshing shields, and then die burning my magic trying to streak away while I try to "re-position" myself with a cost-stack increasing punishing skill on top of having to spam all my shields like a god-damn noodle? ****ing ridiculous. I'd sooner take shields with a cast-time over this.


People keep down-playing the duration nerf. You just dont get it do you? I am not already refreshing my shields every 6 seconds against another player. This is not a table-top RPG where we are taking turns. I can have plenty of fights where I do not need to refresh my shield. There is a gazzilion factors going on in a fight, key among them, CROWD CONTROL. All it takes now, is a CC within 4 seconds of a sorc's DPS rotation, to sneak in a heavy burst just as the shield conveniently expires... because it only lasts 6 seconds.

Sorcs have lots of things the other classes don't have access to:

• Purple, and now invisible, aluminum armor
• Fists of reflectable lightning
• Pet dinosaurs made of glass
• A sentient pile of pebbles
• The power of Meridia, but don't expect her to keep you alive for much longer
• A 6% chance of, just, absolutely annihilating anybody with less than 15% health if they're hit with a shock or physical attack
• Fortitude

Lucky28

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Lord_Hev sounds like you have more of a problem with the Harness change (a ridiculous change) giving every magicka user a big shield than the sorc ones. I agree with that completely.

As for the rest, sorcs still play fundamentally differently than the other classes and excel at mobility, defensive utility, and burst damage just as much relative to the others as they did before DB.

My opinions are based on playing with and against the best sorcs in NA, discussing the changes with them, dueling sorcs on PTS, and playing my magicka sorc in open world for a few months now and doing quite well on him. I'm no longer nightblade-only.

and where is the build diversity?. Sorcs wanted the ability to branch out and experiment with different builds now we're forced into the same build even more than we where before. as i and many others have already said this class is no longer fun to play because of the lack of variety.