NativeJoe wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

lol

This thread amuses me.

This won't be a popular opinion (but what does the general populace tend to know anyway?).

Anyone who thinks sorc is "dead" next patch is a moron. There, I said it.

You are getting huge buffs to Harness Magicka and Negate. Literally all you have to do differently is slot meteor or the damage morph of negate instead of Dawnbreaker and time your shields a little bit more deliberately before you anticipate taking damage.

I've been running around on a sorc with all sustain sets and no undaunted using just Hardened Ward for a long time, and I do just fine in solo / 1vX PvP. I consider this a huge buff to good sorcs, and good riddance to bad sorcs. The shields are still too big, but I expect people will just start using the new Harness instead of both, which is pretty alright imo.

Damage increasing, mobility unchanged, defense technically buffed but harder to pull off = sorcs overall buffed this patch. Stop being sheeple.

And your talking about a cookie cutter sorc...which we've said all over these forums is "getting buffed". by sustained i assume you mean your wearing 5 piece warlock 2.0 Every other niche build is being harmed.I don't understand how you can come up with elaborate builds, do the math, but can't read the actual concerns on the forum.

Nope, he was talking about PvP which we all have made quite clear is not the sorcerers main issue. Though the fact Curse was nerfed, Surge was nerfed and our shields were given to every other class while their mitigation is still a far away dream for us will impact the class negatively in PvP as well.

STEVIL wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Sorcs have literally nothing left to be good at that other classes can't do better so can you guys at zenimax just put the class out of it's misery and delete it and let sorc players choose another class?

For those of us who play sorcs or multiple classes, please do no delete the sorc class. I look forward to the new versions and my first added slot will be stam sorc.

As for class change... it already exists as delete char. I hsve done so twice with veteran chars. Worked both times.

You really are an *** aren't you?

Seriously, I try taking your posts seriously and answer to them but every onw and then you spurt some stupid nonsense like this! Some people don't have all day to level up 8 characters and have all play *** styles available for when ZENIMAX decides to screw them up the ass like they have been doing with sorcerers!

Seriously mate, shut up, stop being so *** self centered, self serving, ***.

And yes, I am very aware this post will get removed soon by a Mod, the only presence Zenimax ever shows on their forums. Go right ahead Mod, delete this post, but this *** need to hear this.

Ok so ignoring the personal nonsense, but hey, look what do you expect from class change?
If you switch to a different class using different weapon skills, those zero experience.
Your new class skills have no experience.

You may have the "level" of the char, some atts, some experience in weapon and guilds from your old class but you still got a long row to hoe to get to where you were.

Thats why i say delete exists now. In the new leveling scheme, getting to 50 level to get your new class and weapon skills up then blammo, cp kick in and viola, there you go, with a ton of enlightenment.

Its nowhere nesr as bad as it was when i deleted vets and ran the teo replacements to v10 and v5.

I regret that you see pointing this out as somebpersonal attack, but having bern there done that and seeing how much easier it is now... its just facts.

Actually my main has every weapon leveled, each skill leveled with morphs even for weapons, guilds and PvP skills (for those pvp skill I have available). It also has the majority of the achievements in the game and every profession leveled, researched, everything. I don't want to trash the character as you suggested we should do just because Zenimax fails at math basic skills. I also don't want to go through all that grinding again, I'd be fine with leveling the class skills, I have to learn how those work so that is fine, but I know how every weapon skill works, every guild skill, etc.

I do see it as a personal attack when all you do in several threads is laugh at others misery and speak so flippantly of other people's efforts and care for their damn characters. Be less flippant about and maybe you won't sound so much like an ass, also, try playing the class before saying it doesn't need work as you have done multiple times in our feedback threads.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

In pvp the 6 sec shield thing isn't a big deal, in fact shields got buffed in some ways. The reason I stopped playing my sorc after wrothgar is because they just keep gutting the damn class

Do nightblades get punished for spamming cloak?
Do DK get punished for spamming wings?
Do Templars get punished for spamming breath of life?

Of course not but Sorcs get punished for casting streak. A 50% increase and halted magic recovery wasn't enough for the whiners so they made it stack.

This in turn forced the class into a shield stacking mine camping turret class that is absolute garbage to play. They took everything that was fun about it and gutted. Sure sorc is still powerful, I could/can still play it very well, but it's sure isn't fun at all, especially if you know what the class has lost since launch. The class is terrible in comparison to the sorc of 2014

I agree... Sorcerers used to be so fun to play back then >.> We actually had good damage, lots of choices (even if we were still tied to the damn destro staff). Sigh... Good times.

Yeah I agree ZOS should just go ahead and delete the Sorcerer class because all the other classes have a better version of the Sorcerer in this game.

KenaPKK wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Doncellius wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

You guys seem to be completely misunderstanding me. I am not ever saying Magicka sorcerers are the worse, I am saying sorcerers as a whole are the worse class in the game. Every other class has a role they play in which they are pretty much the best or at least not the worse, all except sorcerers.

We are the worse Tanks, specially with changes to Ward.
We are the worse healers as maintaining our healer pet alive was already nearly impossible before the changes to Ward.
We are the lowest of the Magicka DPS, even when using Overload.
We are the lowest Stamina DPS and will likely remain so even with this buffs.
We are the worse class when it comes to group utility.

How is that balanced? How can you argue that is not simply bad design?

I am not saying other classes don't need buffs on certain areas to be competitive in those areas, I am saying that the other classes have strong points in which they exceed. In which they are great. In which they are needed. Sorcerer don't have that.

There is the stigma amongst the forum community that the Sorcerer class is freakishly OP.

That will not go away, as we have players who stick solely to one class and could care less if another class became a mess. Easier AP for them in PvP and generally not their problem to deal with.

KenaPKK wrote: »

lol

This thread amuses me.

This won't be a popular opinion (but what does the general populace tend to know anyway?).

Anyone who thinks sorc is "dead" next patch is a moron. There, I said it.

You are getting huge buffs to Harness Magicka and Negate. Literally all you have to do differently is slot meteor or the damage morph of negate instead of Dawnbreaker and time your shields a little bit more deliberately before you anticipate taking damage.

I've been running around on a sorc with all sustain sets and no undaunted using just Hardened Ward for a long time, and I do just fine in solo / 1vX PvP. I consider this a huge buff to good sorcs, and good riddance to bad sorcs. The shields are still too big, but I expect people will just start using the new Harness instead of both, which is pretty alright imo.

Damage increasing, mobility unchanged, defense technically buffed but harder to pull off = sorcs overall buffed this patch. Stop being sheeple.

You should not have to be a good player to use your only defense as a Magicka Sorcerer. If you're a really good player, then you will do well no matter what class spec you play.

Most Magicka Sorcs are bad Sorcs, and will get absolutely crushed by this change, until they use another character. Sorcerer will become the "uncommon/rare" class. How is DB going to buff Sorcs in PvP if only a handful of them can even use the class anymore without getting slaughtered?

Not even going to start on how unnecessary the entire Sorc class will become in PvE content

That stigma comes from the start of the game when sorcerers were incredibly powerful and were the class with least bugged abilities. Since then though, other classes were heavily buffed, bugs in skills were fixed and sorcerers saw a huge amount of nerfs to everything they used. It is about time that stigma dies out and reality sets in, the sorcerer class is without a doubt underpowered as they are not really good in any role, at least when it comes to PvE.

PvP is another matter, the class fairs far better in PvP because our skills allow for strong burst combos. Unfortunately that does nothing for PvE except prevent ZoS from buffing abilities that really could use some tweaking. Actually, PvP is one of those reasons sorcerers see nerf after nerf not only of their damage, but now their shields, self heals and ults.

Grao wrote: »

Doncellius wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

You guys seem to be completely misunderstanding me. I am not ever saying Magicka sorcerers are the worse, I am saying sorcerers as a whole are the worse class in the game. Every other class has a role they play in which they are pretty much the best or at least not the worse, all except sorcerers.

We are the worse Tanks, specially with changes to Ward.
We are the worse healers as maintaining our healer pet alive was already nearly impossible before the changes to Ward.
We are the lowest of the Magicka DPS, even when using Overload.
We are the lowest Stamina DPS and will likely remain so even with this buffs.
We are the worse class when it comes to group utility.

How is that balanced? How can you argue that is not simply bad design?

I am not saying other classes don't need buffs on certain areas to be competitive in those areas, I am saying that the other classes have strong points in which they exceed. In which they are great. In which they are needed. Sorcerer don't have that.

There is the stigma amongst the forum community that the Sorcerer class is freakishly OP.

That will not go away, as we have players who stick solely to one class and could care less if another class became a mess. Easier AP for them in PvP and generally not their problem to deal with.

KenaPKK wrote: »

lol

This thread amuses me.

This won't be a popular opinion (but what does the general populace tend to know anyway?).

Anyone who thinks sorc is "dead" next patch is a moron. There, I said it.

You are getting huge buffs to Harness Magicka and Negate. Literally all you have to do differently is slot meteor or the damage morph of negate instead of Dawnbreaker and time your shields a little bit more deliberately before you anticipate taking damage.

I've been running around on a sorc with all sustain sets and no undaunted using just Hardened Ward for a long time, and I do just fine in solo / 1vX PvP. I consider this a huge buff to good sorcs, and good riddance to bad sorcs. The shields are still too big, but I expect people will just start using the new Harness instead of both, which is pretty alright imo.

Damage increasing, mobility unchanged, defense technically buffed but harder to pull off = sorcs overall buffed this patch. Stop being sheeple.

You should not have to be a good player to use your only defense as a Magicka Sorcerer. If you're a really good player, then you will do well no matter what class spec you play.

Most Magicka Sorcs are bad Sorcs, and will get absolutely crushed by this change, until they use another character. Sorcerer will become the "uncommon/rare" class. How is DB going to buff Sorcs in PvP if only a handful of them can even use the class anymore without getting slaughtered?

Not even going to start on how unnecessary the entire Sorc class will become in PvE content

That stigma comes from the start of the game when sorcerers were incredibly powerful and were the class with least bugged abilities. Since then though, other classes were heavily buffed, bugs in skills were fixed and sorcerers saw a huge amount of nerfs to everything they used. It is about time that stigma dies out and reality sets in, the sorcerer class is without a doubt underpowered as they are not really good in any role, at least when it comes to PvE.

PvP is another matter, the class fairs far better in PvP because our skills allow for strong burst combos. Unfortunately that does nothing for PvE except prevent ZoS from buffing abilities that really could use some tweaking. Actually, PvP is one of those reasons sorcerers see nerf after nerf not only of their damage, but now their shields, self heals and ults.

But...it's a mixed PvP + PvE game...and in such games, you balance around the PvP portion since you can't control players. Sorcs have been the single most dominant PvP class since the beginning of 1.6, were still pretty strong before then, and were op, as you said, back at the beginning of the game. It's time they were brought in line.

Plus, f it were just an irrational stigma, then people would still think that magicka DKs are op as well. They were even more OP than magicka sorcs in the past, after all. That isn't the case, so your proposal that the "sorc OP" mentality in PvP is due to such a stigma doesn't hold water.

I am sorry but balancing a game exclusively around PvP is a huge mistake, as you said this game is both about PvP and PvE, not just about PvP. The requirements of PvP and PvE are completely different and you have to balance things considering both requirements.
PvP requires burst so players can't self heal, shield, etc. So enemies will just die. PvE on the other hand requires sustained damage as our fights tend to extend for several minutes, not simply end in one burst. Properly balanced DPS classes will be able to do both efficiently and to similar results.
There is no way to deny how inferior Sorcerers are in PvE, we have the lowest registered Magicka and Stamina DPS, we are the worse tanks as our general heals are either terrible (Useless Exchange), under constant nerfs (Surge), or reliant on pets with near to no survivability (Clannfear and Matriarch). We are also weak healers as our only class heals are an ultimate and pet, again with survivability issues.
To top all those issues we are the class that offers the least amount of group utility and the class with most skill slots taken by toggles, some of which still lack an active element to make their use less boring. More, Magicka Sorcerers are forcefully tied to Destro staves as our class is the only class without their own spammable ability...

Can you tell me exactly how is that good balance? Does the fact the class has good burst DPS in PvP (without being Over powered, I am sorry... Sorcerers are not over powered in PvP, they are only reasonably strong) justifies sucking in every possible role or aspect of PvE? I don't think so.

DHale wrote: »

I laugh when ppl say say good sorcs will adapt. On na pc at least there us like 5 sorcs who are best in the game. There are amazing. They get wrecked by the wrecking blow spammers in seconds. The rest of the sorcs are not at that level won't stand a chance. No good players were worried about sorcs and their shields. You should watch real duels 90 percent of Stam dks can destroy sorcs with little problem even when the Stam dk is average and the sorc is played by a good player.

Ding Ding Ding.

Sorcerers will always lose to DKs though since at leasy 70% of our damage spells can be reflected back at us by their stupid ability...

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

@Grao I have to agree with @KenaPKK that it is important for the devs to balance around pvp first, and pve second. If they do not do this, PVP gets ruined. I've seen it time and again on many games, and this one is even no different. The DK talon spamming perma-batswarm flame lash and dragon leaping vampire is permanently seared on the memories of many pvp'ers for this very reason. Heck that had people who were able to stack bat swarm on top of bat swarm at one point because of this. Once he developers have a handle on PvP balance it makes it easier for them to then take the pvp design and apply it to pve. DCUO did a pretty good job of this.

I do realize your concerns though @Grao. I personally think the Sorcerer class is a neat class but gets 'locked in' on certain elements many of which aren't advantageous - like pets. I can see why Pet builds are not happy about getting a brief shield, and I think a suggestion that would allow for the pet-morph of the shield to last longer on pets or apply some other long term benefit (a HoT or such to them) might be an idea worth pursuing. The Sorcerer as it stands is a hard class to balance for a lot of reasons that I've iterated in other posts. I personally agree that the commitment they have to toggles with the class might not be the most fun option in a game where you have so few button options to begin with. I realize the frustrations, all I'm trying to say to you is to not give up hope. Sorcerer is too popular for them to let it shrivel on the vine.

When you start excluding half of your player base from consideration when balancing a class, that is when the game gets ruined. So your point here is, it is ok for PvE to be ruined as long as PvP is balanced? Well, I am sorry but that sounds just a little bit selfish, how would you feel if PvP was ruined so PvE was ok? I bet you wouldn't feel so great and wouldn't be here defending Zenimax's balancing strategies.

A game has to consider ALL of its aspects when balancing otherwise it is not balancing, it juggling and juggling poorly.

I think 5 large patches, almost a year and a half of sorcerers suffering nerfs with every large patch should have been more than enough time for Zenimax to figure out how to balance PvP and so PvE is due to have some rebalancing, but it is not happening... Again...

The class needs to be untied from Destruction staves as their main weapon. Why is it that sorcerers are the only class in the game without an spammable direct damage ability again? I don't know, Devs won;t respond.

Pet builds need ward to be more than a shield, it needs to be a heal as well, solid heal, not a HoT as pets can't be healed or protected by Restoration Spells. Pets also need to have more health as they are just too damn squishy at the moment.

Bound Armor's morphs, our last remaining toggle that doesn't have an acitve connected to it need to have an active.

The reason sorcerers are hard to balance is one and simple, we have good burst DPS because our main skills, in an ideal situation, can be linked to do really high brust damage. I believe the combo is Curse " Mage's Wrath + Crystal Fragment's Proc with a CC inserted somewhere in between?

Unfortunately that burst is completely useless in PvE, so the solution is to give the class a sustained DPS ability that can be regulated to elevate Sorcerer DPS without increasing burst potential. Somehow Zenimax fails to realize this though... Our spammable ability doesn;t need to be considerably stronger than Force Pulse is... It needs to be a class skill though, one that works well with our passives and for instance, allows us to use other weapons as our main hand weapons instead of always needing to use a damn Fire Staff...

KenaPKK wrote: »

Thanks @dodgehopper_ESO

I do believe that pets need to be significantly tankier, too, especially in PvP.

If they occupied one ability slot and were tankier, they'd be infinitely more useful. Having shields last longer on them would also be interesting because it would give the sorc himself moments of vulnerability behind his zoo if he chooses to take advantage of the extended duration of shields on his pets after they have expired from him.

It might be interesting to have Hardened Ward's duration scale with the number of active pets -- after such changes to make pets viable in the first place, of course. Then you could pressure a sorc's defenses by pressuring the pets and forcing him to try to keep them up, and sorcs who choose to run without pets of any kind would have a shorter Hardened Ward as a tradeoff.

I agree, pets have to be far more resilient than they currently are. Zenimax forgot to give them physical resistances until this patch (yeah... they had no armor value till now >.>), but I doubt that alone will fix the problem. They need a greater health pool and to make them trully viable they need to be affected by the Storm Calling Passives that increase sock damage and by Champion Points. (Yeah, pets are not affected by CPs at all... Even their damage isn't increased).

On top of that Ward should heal pets. Currently there is only one method to heal pets and that is to slow Matriarch and use its active... Unfortunately Matriarch is the healing pet, not a DPS pet... Having ward heal the pets on top of shielding them would make so the summoner has to constantly watch the pet's health and actually care for the pets instead of just leave them.