Stamina Sorcerer Feedback Thread: Patch 2.4.3 Update - Crit surge now affected by Battle Spirit

Erock25 · May 2016

There is some definite theory crafting scenarios going on in my head right now. It honestly seems like stam sorc just got pushed into dot builds because of this Implosion and Crit Surge change. I'm excited about the change but I still feel like stam sorc lacks the ability to layer their burst dmg. Some change to Bound Armaments or Curse (giving the +pet dmg to the base Curse) are the most viable options for introducing the burst that we are missing.

Ajax_22 wrote: »

No, Crit Surge was changed to be able to proc it's heal on shields (shields still can't be crit), but the heal you get if it hits a shield was somewhere around 300-400. As far as I know that heal amount hasn't changed.

But now it has changed to 3k (1.5k in pvp).

PainfulFAFA · May 2016

Vythri wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I think better question would be: why would I not use both?

Surge has a crazy long duration, and with the amount it heals now you can kind of consider it a 33 second duration Vigor. Combine it with Forward Momentum (or Rally) & Vigor and you have some serious heals on your bar to survive pressure from opponents.

So you're going to slot Crit Surge, Rally, and Vigor? I mean you can, but you're losing a skill slot for 2 moves that basically do the same thing.

Rally is a good burst heal ONLY if you time it right. The highest my rally heals me is 8.5k crit (no cp, after 30+ sec ). So you would have to wait at least 15 secs+ to get any significant heals. While you wait, youre getting 1k heals per 2 secs (w/o Battle spirit).

In those 15 secs, how many surge procs would u need to get the same amount of heals? 6? 7? Surge heals have been confirmed to be able to crit, so that lowers it down to 2, MAYBE 3 procs to get the same heals.

OTOH, my vigor heals me for 2k ea sec (no cps).

Theyre all viable choice now imo. I happen to like surge changes more because i wont have to back out of my offense to heal and also because ANY crit will heal me. Its not dependant on dmg dealt anymore.

DDuke · May 2016

Vythri wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I think better question would be: why would I not use both?

Surge has a crazy long duration, and with the amount it heals now you can kind of consider it a 33 second duration Vigor. Combine it with Forward Momentum (or Rally) & Vigor and you have some serious heals on your bar to survive pressure from opponents.

So you're going to slot Crit Surge, Rally, and Vigor? I mean you can, but you're losing a skill slot for 2 moves that basically do the same thing.

On surface yes, maybe.

But don't look at the "main effect" (Major Brutality) of Forward Momentum & Crit Surge, look at the secondary effects.

Crit Surge heal is more or less on par with Vigor, an ability with only 5 second duration that has no secondary effects. Most stam builds still slot that ability.

Forward Momentum you can use for 8 second snare/immobilize immunity, which is extremely powerful.

The way I see it, Major Brutality is just the nice little extra added on top of already powerful effects.

Still need to test how all this works in practice though

DDragon · May 2016

This one thinks it is move in nice direction, but while the PvP issues have been in some way adressed, the issue of low dps for PvE stam sorcs have not been adressed (this one thinks on dps on bosses with hp>25%).

This one strongly suggest changing BOUND ARMAMENTS buff to make it viable and worth slotting for PvE. Honestly increase of heavy attack damage by 11% and max stamina by 8% (iirc) is really weak for PvE. Or at least make adjustments to pets, so obtaining Daedric protection will not but such a PITA.

Erock25 · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I think better question would be: why would I not use both?

Surge has a crazy long duration, and with the amount it heals now you can kind of consider it a 33 second duration Vigor. Combine it with Forward Momentum (or Rally) & Vigor and you have some serious heals on your bar to survive pressure from opponents.

So you're going to slot Crit Surge, Rally, and Vigor? I mean you can, but you're losing a skill slot for 2 moves that basically do the same thing.

On surface yes, maybe.

But don't look at the "main effect" (Major Brutality) of Forward Momentum & Crit Surge, look at the secondary effects.

Crit Surge heal is more or less on par with Vigor, an ability with only 5 second duration that has no secondary effects. Most stam builds still slot that ability.

Forward Momentum you can use for 8 second snare/immobilize immunity, which is extremely powerful.

The way I see it, Major Brutality is just the nice little extra added on top of already powerful effects.

Still need to test how all this works in practice though

Crit Surge + Shuffle > Crit Surge + Forward Momentum.

Birdovic · May 2016

You can make use of Crit Surge and Vigor as heals, while Forward Momentum provides you the Snare immunity and an additional HoT, at about 1k stam cheaper cost than Shuffle, which even lasts 1,5 seconds longer.

edit: damn someone was faster^^

PainfulFAFA · May 2016

Erock25 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I think better question would be: why would I not use both?

Surge has a crazy long duration, and with the amount it heals now you can kind of consider it a 33 second duration Vigor. Combine it with Forward Momentum (or Rally) & Vigor and you have some serious heals on your bar to survive pressure from opponents.

So you're going to slot Crit Surge, Rally, and Vigor? I mean you can, but you're losing a skill slot for 2 moves that basically do the same thing.

On surface yes, maybe.

But don't look at the "main effect" (Major Brutality) of Forward Momentum & Crit Surge, look at the secondary effects.

Crit Surge heal is more or less on par with Vigor, an ability with only 5 second duration that has no secondary effects. Most stam builds still slot that ability.

Forward Momentum you can use for 8 second snare/immobilize immunity, which is extremely powerful.

The way I see it, Major Brutality is just the nice little extra added on top of already powerful effects.

Still need to test how all this works in practice though

Crit Surge + Shuffle > Crit Surge + Forward Momentum.

Somebody just told me Crit Surge heals can crit heal.
I agree with that statement!

TBois · May 2016

Im excited to test the changes. At least my intial reaction isn't "facepalm," which has been my reaction for most of the Stam sorc changes. I currently use rally+crit surge+vigor with a dot build; so I think for how I play the change is beneficial. I'm not really interested in dark deal. I will have to see f I can fit retreating maneuvers on my bar or switch back to bow from dw. If so I'll run hurricane and stack expedition buffs; if not I'll run boundless. Implosion, all I have to say is "thank you for listening and making some changes quickly, ZOS."

This will end up being a good patch for my Stam dot build. Except that I might get rid of skoria, since that would be the only reason to put points into elemental expert (before I had shock damage too).

Thanks for the heads up @Dyride

DDuke · May 2016

Erock25 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I think better question would be: why would I not use both?

Surge has a crazy long duration, and with the amount it heals now you can kind of consider it a 33 second duration Vigor. Combine it with Forward Momentum (or Rally) & Vigor and you have some serious heals on your bar to survive pressure from opponents.

So you're going to slot Crit Surge, Rally, and Vigor? I mean you can, but you're losing a skill slot for 2 moves that basically do the same thing.

On surface yes, maybe.

But don't look at the "main effect" (Major Brutality) of Forward Momentum & Crit Surge, look at the secondary effects.

Crit Surge heal is more or less on par with Vigor, an ability with only 5 second duration that has no secondary effects. Most stam builds still slot that ability.

Forward Momentum you can use for 8 second snare/immobilize immunity, which is extremely powerful.

The way I see it, Major Brutality is just the nice little extra added on top of already powerful effects.

Still need to test how all this works in practice though

Crit Surge + Shuffle > Crit Surge + Forward Momentum.

Depends very much on the gear you wear :P

With heavy armor, Forward Momentum should be much better due to cheaper cost & longer duration on the immunity (as well as higher mitigation, which means dodged attacks become less valuable compared to healing more) - not to mention the +healing received from heavy armor & the anti-synergy between Constitution & any kind of dodge effect

With medium armor I'd go for Shuffle still.

Erock25 · May 2016

I keep making theoretical builds and even less sorc abilities are making it on my bar than before.

Daymond · May 2016

Erock25 wrote: »

I keep making theoretical builds and even less sorc abilities are making it on my bar than before.

Really for me i have 6 sorc abilities with the crit surge changes i can fin'lly put it back on my bar. Really like all the changes so far.

acw37162 · May 2016

Thank you for the changes today;

Question; is out of the question to ask for hurricane to be adjusted so if you refresh while at max distance and snags but before it expires the damage and distance stay at max modifiers?

luxfreak · May 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

Thank you for the changes today;

Question; is out of the question to ask for hurricane to be adjusted so if you refresh while at max distance and snags but before it expires the damage and distance stay at max modifiers?

Guess so, this ability is now strong as it is. With the 15sec speed Buff. As it is the minor Version, it can work speed buff together, meaning u can achive quite some speed with bow->dodgeroll, if you need to.

Next thing: The Surge Changes: if you run a build with at least 2 dots, and a flurry morph, Surge should work like a constant 33 second 3(1,5k in pvp) hot. I like that. If i get under pressure i can still cast vigor or boneshield as an addition.

What i realy dont like is that Stam Sorcs still dont have a valid form of stamina Regeneration. Ofc you can slot the Bound Armor skill, but thats quite a waste of a skillslot. As well as no one will slot any other Ability from that skilltree, except atro mayby on the offbar.
Regarding that, Dark Exchange still sucks. I wouldnt think about Casting it for the HP, and the Stamina gain is still usless.

The 5% Damage Boost on the Physical Damage seems Cool, but i would politly ask for like 2-3 % more on that.
I cant yet say if theese 5 % are not enought, but for PVE single Target Boss DPS, it feels like theese 5% are a bit too small.

The new disintegration: that is AWEASOME. Mayby thats a biased PVE POV, but against bosses, especially in long fights, we finaly get a REALY good execute passiv. It makes Hurricane into an AOE execute again, which was one of my concernes, seeing it beeing changed into physical Damage.

So my Result for that Patch is: Good!
Mayby needs some evaluation in form of testing, and still Stam Sorcs, still need a better form of sustain, or a better Deadric Summon spell, but overall this is realy a good change.

Septimus_Magna · May 2016

@luxfreak Hurricane gives the major expedition buff which wont stack with Rapids/Quick Cloak/Bow Dogeroll etc.

HenryIvan · May 2016

so ive been playing around with the stam sorc dw/bow on the pts and I'm liking the changes tho i would like a stamina sorc attack ability or gap closer either or both would be nice,but thx for some of the changes you brought to us zos.

Tannus15 · May 2016

Personally I'd like to see surge changed to have major or minor Force instead of Brutality.
This will make it synergise better with Rally and it kind of makes sense since surge is crit focused.

As it stands right now I think I'll just swap it out for Rally.

acw37162 · May 2016

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

@luxfreak Hurricane gives the major expedition buff which wont stack with Rapids/Quick Cloak/Bow Dogeroll etc.

Patch notes say minor.

Wrobel mentioned minor elsewhere.

'If it's giving major it's a bug and will most likely be changed to minor

Weng · May 2016

That stam sorcs get an unbreakable speed buff with minor expedition that can be stacked with major expedition from the bow passive is really strong in pvp.

I did some experiments with physical aoe and dot damage stacking in pve in Orsinium and the results look promising.

Just theoretically, if you use these in pvp: Caltrops, arrow barrage, hurricane, steel tornado and Dawnbreaker physical dot ... I hope that implosion doesn't get nerfed next tbh.

Well, Dark Deal, the intention is clear, I'm still undecided, if you can use it effectively in pve or pvp. If you're not under pressure and have a group protecting you, it might work. Solo pve or 1v1 pvp, maybe I give it a try.

Cathexis · May 2016

Dark deal is FAR more effective as a stam tanking tool in pvp, and doubling its returns will improve conditions for vs1-3 players, or in large number AvA, but probably not by a significant enough margin to make you competitive with equally equiped dks or templars or nightblades. @Wrobel I will bet money that the conditions will remain the same.. 1vX will go about as far as a 1v3 vs inexperienced players, just like it is now, just like it was before (unless by some miracle, stam shields in combination with the other tanking utilities will allow you to sustainably resist regular damage from multiple sources).

The dark deal change will go a long way for me, but I don't know that it will solve anything when every other class is so much more sustainable. Last night I fought a templar who was equal tank/heals and I was outdps'd and he had higher health than me - and he could drop instant heals that would go off even if they were a fraction of a second before getting knocked down with a wrecking blow. There was no way I could out damage him even when I put him on the defensive. To put this in perspective, I am running a full gold equipment, purple v16 jewellery, 2 piece monster helm, I've hit the damage redux cap from defense/resistance, and I'm pretty close to max cp. The overall situation might improve with a stronger dark deal, as I can spend less time dedicated to healing, but as soon as his nightblade buddy jumps on top of me, I'm skeptical its going to make a lot of difference.

As for surge I think in the end it will be a positive change, but I still think heals derived solely from crits are far too unreliable (Again, unless by some miracle, stam shields in combination with the other tanking utilities will allow you to sustainably resist regular damage from multiple sources).

With regard to surge changes, I can't see any reason not to switch to a dot stacking build. Stacking crit + hurricane + surge is going to be a WAY more survivable. My concern, however, is that the crit surge healing numbers will be too low in pvp. 1500 base heals every 1s is not great.

HenryIvan · May 2016

While playing my stam sorc on the pts I noticed that circle of protection is only like 10 sec duration and I might be wrong but isn't rune focus like 15 sec duration? The 2 abilities are pretty much similar shouldn't they have the same duration too?

Tyrannitar · May 2016

Cathexis wrote: »

My concern, however, is that the crit surge healing numbers will be too low in pvp. 1500 base heals every 1s is not great.

Understatement of the year award goes toooOoOoOooOo^^^^^

luxfreak · May 2016

Cathexis wrote: »

.
As for surge I think in the end it will be a positive change, but I still think heals derived solely from crits are far too unreliable (Again, unless by some miracle, stam shields in combination with the other tanking utilities will allow you to sustainably resist regular damage from multiple sources).

With regard to surge changes, I can't see any reason not to switch to a dot stacking build. Stacking crit + hurricane + surge is going to be a WAY more survivable. My concern, however, is that the crit surge healing numbers will be too low in pvp. 1500 base heals every 1s is not great.

First of all: i just looked it up, my resolving vigor jeals me for 10k over 5 seconds in pve, resulting in 5k over 5 seconds in pvp.
So Vigor, the MUST SLOT heal spell for most stamina builds, heals for 1k hps in pvp.

Now Imagine a Stamina Sorc with at least 60% crit, thats quite easy to get, without stacking too much crit effects.
We use Poisen Injection and have an active Hurricane running, ofc Surge is running as well.
We use a Flurry Morph and weave it with light attacks. so we got around 8 Hits in one second. One of that will Surely crit.
So even if we cant crit on surge cd for sure, a HPS OVER 1k, as Vigor does, is easily possible.
And its duration is 33seconds, thets caltrop durration. Thats INSANE.
Press it once, and you wont need to cast any other healing, except mayby a high duration rally for flash healing, or a bone shield.
Im quite sure i can play MSA now, without slotting Vigor in the 1st Bar anymore. just going with a Bone Shield there will be enought, and i alredy played with a shield there. just can swap it out.

RoyJade · May 2016

Can't find the topic where I've see that, but surge seem more powerful than intended actually (and really good for pvp -if they don't nerf it-). First, it still have his "immunity" to battle spirit, so it heal for 3k in pvp. Second, it can crit. It seem to crit on magicka crit rate, and it's boosted with elfborn. It is also affected by major mending.
Hope it will stay like this, finally it can be a really good sustain heal again and ever more : a must have.

Now, we just need an another pve dps boost for both magicka and stamina spec, and more utility from the summoning tree (stamina especially, but that won't hurt magsorc to have something too).

Brrrofski · May 2016

So from a pure pvp perspective, am I better off with rally or surge?

That old surge could be a great heal. Crit rush someone and my health would shoot up.

acw37162 · May 2016

I'm really torn on crit surge right now, pulling large world boss mobs and trying to heal through it using crit surge feels much weaker then the live version.

The 3k cap Is extremely noticible

Daymond · May 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

I'm really torn on crit surge right now, pulling large world boss mobs and trying to heal through it using crit surge feels much weaker then the live version.

The 3k cap Is extremely noticible

Ive read that Crit surge heals can crit so they can get high. Also if you have high crit and use dots like hurricane and continue to stay on attack thats a constant 3k heal per second that lasts i think 30 secs doesnt sound to bad to me.

Derra · May 2016

Erock25 wrote: »

There is some definite theory crafting scenarios going on in my head right now. It honestly seems like stam sorc just got pushed into dot builds because of this Implosion and Crit Surge change. I'm excited about the change but I still feel like stam sorc lacks the ability to layer their burst dmg. Some change to Bound Armaments or Curse (giving the +pet dmg to the base Curse) are the most viable options for introducing the burst that we are missing.

Ajax_22 wrote: »

No, Crit Surge was changed to be able to proc it's heal on shields (shields still can't be crit), but the heal you get if it hits a shield was somewhere around 300-400. As far as I know that heal amount hasn't changed.

But now it has changed to 3k (1.5k in pvp).

Critsurge / powersurge currently are not affected by battlespirit. If thats working as intended (i hope it is bc 990 heal after battlespirit for powersurge would be pathetic) 3k heal on any crit in pvp (working on shields aswell) is a massive buff.
Also the critsurge/powersurge heal itself is now able to crit. I managed to get 5.4k critsurge heals in cyrodiil with a template char. Not bad for a heal with only 1s icd imo.

Birdovic · May 2016

@Derra

Lets hope its intended, it makes for a Great healing Option in pvp, offering other Playstyles which dont rely on rally(and forcing 2h)

DDragon · May 2016

It's 3k normal, and 4.5k crit. And you can invest in quick recovery to enhance the flat value (in blessed too I think).

Derra · May 2016

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

@Derra

Lets hope its intended, it makes for a Great healing Option in pvp, offering other Playstyles which dont rely on rally(and forcing 2h)

I truely hope it is.

With battlespirit the value would just be too small (especially powersurge being already mediocre compared to what entropy does).
Only getting 990 heal from that morph would be pathetic.

On the other hand i don´t see any reason why battlespirit should not affect surge in it´s current form. Would be great to get a dev response to provide better feedback @ZOS_GinaBruno