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Greed, greeed, greed
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Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.
I would love to see someone doing those dungeons with no gear no skill points spent and no CP solo. Sure lets see one.
You see, so would I. That would be awesome.
But sadly no one capable of that has made any such claim. So I guess we will never see it.
Wait I thought you said you had video proof?
What we have here is a bad bit of sarcastic humor based on your overexageration. That is also why I apologised to Lysette, because the punchline wasn't aimed that way.
If you want to discredit a claim, argue against it, don't build it up beyond its bounds. It makes your argument a joke.Edited by Shunravi on May 6, 2016 3:00PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!2 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.
I would love to see someone doing those dungeons with no gear no skill points spent and no CP solo. Sure lets see one.
You see, so would I. That would be awesome.
But sadly no one capable of that has made any such claim. So I guess we will never see it.
Wait I thought you said you had video proof?
What we have here is a bad bit of sarcastic humor based on your overexageration. That is also why I apologised to Lysette, because the punchline wasn't aimed that way.
If you want to discredit a claim, argue against it, don't build it up beyond its bounds. It makes your argument a joke.
So you dont have video proof even after you insisted you did right?1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »..regarding IC DLC
There is 0 siege warfare, 0 influence on Cyrodiil, ladders going up and down near base of every faction, and the Sigil of Imperial Retreat is bought for 10k AP is proof of how much they catered to the gankers and grinders.
The raiders and endgamers care about vICP and vWGT for the loot, and only 2 somewhat difficult dungeons, but these dungeons are exclusive and don't have any pvp in them.
The general pvp player have no reason to buy the IC DLC or subscribe to ESO at all. Which has lead to many players, including one of my officers to quit their subscription to ESO, simply because they don't need it nor want it.
Well then you have basically the reason, why nothing is done for them - they don't pay in the future, they don't get content.0 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casualssome of the casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.
1) When the solo Maelstrom Arena was announced for the Wrothgar DLC, I saw several complaints from "hardcore" raider types that ZOS should have made it another 12 man raid, "because it's an MMO, blah blah blah..." Basically the same kind of argument you're making now.
2) As recently as yesterday, I've seen PvPers recommend that ALL mobs be removed from the IC districts, in order to clear the field for PvP skirmishes. Never mind how badly this would screw up some of the IC quests, which would all have to be re-coded.
Furthermore, I think you're just wrong when you lump all the people together as "casuals" who would like to see vICP and vWGT tuned down a bit in difficulty. While some of those people could certainly be described as casual, I'm sure that many of them are like me, players who are plenty "hardcore", but we are focused on different parts of the game than you are.
Edited by Emma_Overload on May 6, 2016 3:23PM#CAREBEARMASTERRACE0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I said when they showed their plans for IC it wouldnt work. No PVP objectives. Too many hard PVE mobs outside of the dungeons and the whole player looting deal spelled disaster. PVE players wouldnt like it and for the most part PVP players wouldn't like it either. They thought their gimmick of player looting would attract PVP players but it did not.1 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Furthermore, I think you're just wrong when you lump all the people together as "casuals" who would like to see vICP and vWGT tuned down a bit in difficulty. While some of those people could certainly be described as casual, I'm sure that many of them are like me, players who are plenty "hardcore", but we are focused on different parts of the game than you are.
So why do you care about IC-dungeons (or dungeons in general) if you focus on different things in the game?
Noobplar1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.
I would love to see someone doing those dungeons with no gear no skill points spent and no CP solo. Sure lets see one.
You see, so would I. That would be awesome.
But sadly no one capable of that has made any such claim. So I guess we will never see it.
Wait I thought you said you had video proof?
What we have here is a bad bit of sarcastic humor based on your overexageration. That is also why I apologised to Lysette, because the punchline wasn't aimed that way.
If you want to discredit a claim, argue against it, don't build it up beyond its bounds. It makes your argument a joke.
So you dont have video proof even after you insisted you did right?
It's funny, but I do not recall ever saying that I had any form of proof. I asked a question.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.
I would love to see someone doing those dungeons with no gear no skill points spent and no CP solo. Sure lets see one.
You see, so would I. That would be awesome.
But sadly no one capable of that has made any such claim. So I guess we will never see it.
Wait I thought you said you had video proof?
What we have here is a bad bit of sarcastic humor based on your overexageration. That is also why I apologised to Lysette, because the punchline wasn't aimed that way.
If you want to discredit a claim, argue against it, don't build it up beyond its bounds. It makes your argument a joke.
So you dont have video proof even after you insisted you did right?
It's funny, but I do not recall ever saying that I had any form of proof. I asked a question.
Ya the question was do you want video proof. Anyways like I said they arent as easy as you guys make them out to be. Still going to have to know what you are doing. Can some elite players possibly solo it somehow on PTS? Yes. Is that relevant to keeping it like it is on live? Nope.Edited by jamesharv2005ub17_ESO on May 6, 2016 3:34PM1 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
.Emma_Eunjung wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casualssome of the casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.
1) When the solo Maelstrom Arena was announced for the Wrothgar DLC, I saw several complaints from "hardcore" raider types that ZOS should have made it another 12 man raid, "because it's an MMO, blah blah blah..." Basically the same kind of argument you're making now.
2) As recently as yesterday, I've seen PvPers recommend that ALL mobs be removed from the IC districts, in order to clear the field for PvP skirmishes. Never mind how badly this would screw up some of the IC quests, which would all have to be re-coded.
Furthermore, I think you're just wrong when you lump all the people together as "casuals" who would like to see vICP and vWGT tuned down a bit in difficulty. While some of those people could certainly be described as casual, I'm sure that many of them are like me, players who are plenty "hardcore", but we are focused on different parts of the game than you are.
First of all, later during the course of the thread I said that I was angry when I wrote this and I apologized for the tone of the post. I didnt mean all players who play casually, meant only instant gratificaton players who use the majority as a shield. Even though casuals are not a homogenous mass, and even this thread proves it.
But still, I'm pretty sure this nerf wont do any good for the game. If youre trying to imply that Im just asking for what's better for me personally, its not the case. It would be much easier for me to finally farm the sets in good traits if the dungeon would take less time.But when we have only "super easy" and "super hard" content and nothing in-between, then what an average player should do? Because you know, "super hardcore" and "super casual" are just extremes. To me, it just makes the segregation stronger.
P.S. I personally think that "only PVE" and "only PVP" instances of IC would be nice. More variety for everyone.
And I agree with Lysette, new IC mechanics are also pretty interesting.Edited by LadyNalcarya on May 6, 2016 3:40PMDro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.
I would love to see someone doing those dungeons with no gear no skill points spent and no CP solo. Sure lets see one.
You see, so would I. That would be awesome.
But sadly no one capable of that has made any such claim. So I guess we will never see it.
Wait I thought you said you had video proof?
What we have here is a bad bit of sarcastic humor based on your overexageration. That is also why I apologised to Lysette, because the punchline wasn't aimed that way.
If you want to discredit a claim, argue against it, don't build it up beyond its bounds. It makes your argument a joke.
So you dont have video proof even after you insisted you did right?
It's funny, but I do not recall ever saying that I had any form of proof. I asked a question.
Ya the question was do you want video proof. Anyways like I said they arent as easy as you guys make them out to be. Still going to have to know what you are doing. Can some elite players possibly solo it somehow on PTS? Yes. Is that relevant to keeping it like it is on live? Nope.
The question was if you needed it. Not wanted it as if I could supply it.
You are blowing the argument out of proportion to discredit it. You are not addressing the argument itself.
Players are voicing their concerns. They are saying that in the current climate of the game that these things are possible. There is a disagreement that this should be possible. They are group instances designed and intended for teamwork. But nerfing them without changing mechanics makes them far to easy to just beat with damage. Burning everything is good for grinding gear, but is not necessarily the most enjoyable thing when you are playing as a team. But if it changes so that it's even more just about burning then there is no place or reason for things like support and tanks that people enjoy playing. It's just about the burn. Just stack damage, and that's all people should ever do, because anything else is just holding people back.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Furthermore, I think you're just wrong when you lump all the people together as "casuals" who would like to see vICP and vWGT tuned down a bit in difficulty. While some of those people could certainly be described as casual, I'm sure that many of them are like me, players who are plenty "hardcore", but we are focused on different parts of the game than you are.
So why do you care about IC-dungeons (or dungeons in general) if you focus on different things in the game?
There are certain items that can ONLY be farmed in those two dungeons, gear that would be useful to have in other parts of the game, both PvE and PvP. vICP and vWGT present considerable obstacles that other dungeons don't. They're really more similar to the Trials than to the other Vet dungeons.
For me, it's not even a question of personal skill, it's the fact that it's incredibly difficult to get a PUG together that can actually complete these dungeons. While I think it's fine that ESO supports guilds, I don't think it should ever REQUIRE them in order to complete content.#CAREBEARMASTERRACE0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.
I would love to see someone doing those dungeons with no gear no skill points spent and no CP solo. Sure lets see one.
You see, so would I. That would be awesome.
But sadly no one capable of that has made any such claim. So I guess we will never see it.
Wait I thought you said you had video proof?
What we have here is a bad bit of sarcastic humor based on your overexageration. That is also why I apologised to Lysette, because the punchline wasn't aimed that way.
If you want to discredit a claim, argue against it, don't build it up beyond its bounds. It makes your argument a joke.
So you dont have video proof even after you insisted you did right?
It's funny, but I do not recall ever saying that I had any form of proof. I asked a question.
Ya the question was do you want video proof. Anyways like I said they arent as easy as you guys make them out to be. Still going to have to know what you are doing. Can some elite players possibly solo it somehow on PTS? Yes. Is that relevant to keeping it like it is on live? Nope.
The question was if you needed it. Not wanted it as if I could supply it.
You are blowing the argument out of proportion to discredit it. You are not addressing the argument itself.
Players are voicing their concerns. They are saying that in the current climate of the game that these things are possible. There is a disagreement that this should be possible. They are group instances designed and intended for teamwork. But nerfing them without changing mechanics makes them far to easy to just beat with damage. Burning everything is good for grinding gear, but is not necessarily the most enjoyable thing when you are playing as a team. But if it changes so that it's even more just about burning then there is no place or reason for things like support and tanks that people enjoy playing. It's just about the burn. Just stack damage, and that's all people should ever do, because anything else is just holding people back.
Yet people are not using them which is why the change was ordered to begin with.1 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You don't need a guild for those dungeons...only 3 people who want to do those dungeons with you. Sure, it's easier to find those with a guild, but it's not neccessary.Edited by Destruent on May 6, 2016 3:51PMNoobplar1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Furthermore, I think you're just wrong when you lump all the people together as "casuals" who would like to see vICP and vWGT tuned down a bit in difficulty. While some of those people could certainly be described as casual, I'm sure that many of them are like me, players who are plenty "hardcore", but we are focused on different parts of the game than you are.
So why do you care about IC-dungeons (or dungeons in general) if you focus on different things in the game?
There are certain items that can ONLY be farmed in those two dungeons, gear that would be useful to have in other parts of the game, both PvE and PvP. vICP and vWGT present considerable obstacles that other dungeons don't. They're really more similar to the Trials than to the other Vet dungeons.
For me, it's not even a question of personal skill, it's the fact that it's incredibly difficult to get a PUG together that can actually complete these dungeons. While I think it's fine that ESO supports guilds, I don't think it should ever REQUIRE them in order to complete content.
My offer still stands if you want a group. The no ts, no gear check, no dps judging, no communication besides absolutely necessary stuff about mechanics offer.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Furthermore, I think you're just wrong when you lump all the people together as "casuals" who would like to see vICP and vWGT tuned down a bit in difficulty. While some of those people could certainly be described as casual, I'm sure that many of them are like me, players who are plenty "hardcore", but we are focused on different parts of the game than you are.
So why do you care about IC-dungeons (or dungeons in general) if you focus on different things in the game?
There are certain items that can ONLY be farmed in those two dungeons, gear that would be useful to have in other parts of the game, both PvE and PvP. vICP and vWGT present considerable obstacles that other dungeons don't. They're really more similar to the Trials than to the other Vet dungeons.
For me, it's not even a question of personal skill, it's the fact that it's incredibly difficult to get a PUG together that can actually complete these dungeons. While I think it's fine that ESO supports guilds, I don't think it should ever REQUIRE them in order to complete content.
I think that better loot system would solve many issues.
Cause being able to do ICP/WGT in 20 minutes doesnt mean anything with the abysmal drop rates we have.
I farm these dungeons with very good groups since release and still most of my set pieces are in bad traits. So good traits would still be out of reach for most players, simply because of sheer amount of grind.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.
I would love to see someone doing those dungeons with no gear no skill points spent and no CP solo. Sure lets see one.
You see, so would I. That would be awesome.
But sadly no one capable of that has made any such claim. So I guess we will never see it.
Wait I thought you said you had video proof?
What we have here is a bad bit of sarcastic humor based on your overexageration. That is also why I apologised to Lysette, because the punchline wasn't aimed that way.
If you want to discredit a claim, argue against it, don't build it up beyond its bounds. It makes your argument a joke.
So you dont have video proof even after you insisted you did right?
It's funny, but I do not recall ever saying that I had any form of proof. I asked a question.
Ya the question was do you want video proof. Anyways like I said they arent as easy as you guys make them out to be. Still going to have to know what you are doing. Can some elite players possibly solo it somehow on PTS? Yes. Is that relevant to keeping it like it is on live? Nope.
The question was if you needed it. Not wanted it as if I could supply it.
You are blowing the argument out of proportion to discredit it. You are not addressing the argument itself.
Players are voicing their concerns. They are saying that in the current climate of the game that these things are possible. There is a disagreement that this should be possible. They are group instances designed and intended for teamwork. But nerfing them without changing mechanics makes them far to easy to just beat with damage. Burning everything is good for grinding gear, but is not necessarily the most enjoyable thing when you are playing as a team. But if it changes so that it's even more just about burning then there is no place or reason for things like support and tanks that people enjoy playing. It's just about the burn. Just stack damage, and that's all people should ever do, because anything else is just holding people back.
Yet people are not using them which is why the change was ordered to begin with.
And I would say that based on craglorn and the vet zones, nerfing will not solve the problem.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.
I would love to see someone doing those dungeons with no gear no skill points spent and no CP solo. Sure lets see one.
You see, so would I. That would be awesome.
But sadly no one capable of that has made any such claim. So I guess we will never see it.
Wait I thought you said you had video proof?
What we have here is a bad bit of sarcastic humor based on your overexageration. That is also why I apologised to Lysette, because the punchline wasn't aimed that way.
If you want to discredit a claim, argue against it, don't build it up beyond its bounds. It makes your argument a joke.
So you dont have video proof even after you insisted you did right?
It's funny, but I do not recall ever saying that I had any form of proof. I asked a question.
Ya the question was do you want video proof. Anyways like I said they arent as easy as you guys make them out to be. Still going to have to know what you are doing. Can some elite players possibly solo it somehow on PTS? Yes. Is that relevant to keeping it like it is on live? Nope.
The question was if you needed it. Not wanted it as if I could supply it.
You are blowing the argument out of proportion to discredit it. You are not addressing the argument itself.
Players are voicing their concerns. They are saying that in the current climate of the game that these things are possible. There is a disagreement that this should be possible. They are group instances designed and intended for teamwork. But nerfing them without changing mechanics makes them far to easy to just beat with damage. Burning everything is good for grinding gear, but is not necessarily the most enjoyable thing when you are playing as a team. But if it changes so that it's even more just about burning then there is no place or reason for things like support and tanks that people enjoy playing. It's just about the burn. Just stack damage, and that's all people should ever do, because anything else is just holding people back.
Yet people are not using them which is why the change was ordered to begin with.
And I would say that based on craglorn and the vet zones, nerfing will not solve the problem.
Craglorn is not popular for entirely different reasons. I dont know why you think vet zones are deserted. Obviously as you level you will go from one zone to another. meanwhile IC is underutilized and cost a lot to make. Craglorn doesnt require an extra purchase or a plus sub.1 -
Drazkyth✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casualssome of the casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.
Do you have the exact details of said "nerf" ?
It could be very minor and it will surely still leave vWGT and vICP the hardest of the four man PVE content.
I like a challenge and I personally don't see a need for a "nerf" but if ZoS feel it's needed and it will encourage or help others be able to complete these dungeons then that's fine. It's PVE afterall, what's the problem to you if others can complete this content post update compared to pre update? Is it going to drastically effect your experience and gameplay? I doubt it.
I'm so tired of this attitude in MMO's, considering it's PVE content we're talking about here, other players being able to complete and achieve gear from said dungeons does not harm you at all. If you simply want bragging rights go get Flawless Conqueror and be done with it. Sigh.PC EU
British Is Best
Deekus Xerrean
Ebonheart Pact Grand Overlord
Why so salty?
QQ Some more1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I'm not the one saying they are deserted. You are. Those are your words not mine. I meant that I did not see the nerfs increase their popularity, as someone who spent a great deal of time in them during that time.jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.
I would love to see someone doing those dungeons with no gear no skill points spent and no CP solo. Sure lets see one.
You see, so would I. That would be awesome.
But sadly no one capable of that has made any such claim. So I guess we will never see it.
Wait I thought you said you had video proof?
What we have here is a bad bit of sarcastic humor based on your overexageration. That is also why I apologised to Lysette, because the punchline wasn't aimed that way.
If you want to discredit a claim, argue against it, don't build it up beyond its bounds. It makes your argument a joke.
So you dont have video proof even after you insisted you did right?
It's funny, but I do not recall ever saying that I had any form of proof. I asked a question.
Ya the question was do you want video proof. Anyways like I said they arent as easy as you guys make them out to be. Still going to have to know what you are doing. Can some elite players possibly solo it somehow on PTS? Yes. Is that relevant to keeping it like it is on live? Nope.
The question was if you needed it. Not wanted it as if I could supply it.
You are blowing the argument out of proportion to discredit it. You are not addressing the argument itself.
Players are voicing their concerns. They are saying that in the current climate of the game that these things are possible. There is a disagreement that this should be possible. They are group instances designed and intended for teamwork. But nerfing them without changing mechanics makes them far to easy to just beat with damage. Burning everything is good for grinding gear, but is not necessarily the most enjoyable thing when you are playing as a team. But if it changes so that it's even more just about burning then there is no place or reason for things like support and tanks that people enjoy playing. It's just about the burn. Just stack damage, and that's all people should ever do, because anything else is just holding people back.
Yet people are not using them which is why the change was ordered to begin with.
And I would say that based on craglorn and the vet zones, nerfing will not solve the problem.
Craglorn is not popular for entirely different reasons. I dont know why you think vet zones are deserted. Obviously as you level you will go from one zone to another. meanwhile IC is underutilized and cost a lot to make. Craglorn doesnt require an extra purchase or a plus sub.
Craglorn is not popular for a very similar reason that IC is not popular. Actually I would say IC has it worse because of the PvP/pve conflicts of interest. The only reason to have interest in IC is with the new overworld mechanics they are adding, and farming TV stones. Gearing is the one leg up that IC has. Otherwise, they are both group content zones, with challenging instances with tough mobs. Unless you are very experienced, they both have 'group locks' on their content. And in only 3 instances will craglorns locks actually stop you without a group. IC really only has these locks inside the instances themselves. But then there are gankers. But if those 3 locks are the issue, well I could see that.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Its not me saying they arent utilized. Its ZOS. As far as c ralorn Ive said all along it isnt the difficulty per se its the boring tedious quests. At least thats what it is for me.Edited by jamesharv2005ub17_ESO on May 6, 2016 5:06PM1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Its not me saying they arent utilized. Its ZOS. As far as c ralorn Ive said all along it isnt the difficulty per se its the boring tedious quests. At least thats what it is for me.
Well, I hope I haven't implied that you are the one saying that. (and thanks for breaking the reply chain, that was getting to long)
The quests are of course subjective, but so many things we are talking about ultimately are. I've heard people say similar things about IC quests as well, and the opposite for crag. What's worse for IC is that you do have to buy it to play it. With craglorn you can just walk in and then leave if you decide you don't like it. Not so with IC. And many buyers/ subbers express dissatisfaction with either getting ganked while doing pve, or the farmers and mobs in what they feel should be a pvp zone. So that doesn't help people want to get it in the first place, let alone to even try out the dungeons.
Then there's the unique sets that drop, and if you want them you have to buy and play it. But then people who can and do run it very frequently report that the rng is not favorable. So why buy it if you aren't even sure you will get something you want, let alone grinding for it. They started a loot token system that I wish had been expanded more, and with less rng....
And the rng certainly doesn't help when people consider taking someone new. It's a choice between running with people you know and have fun with and doing it fast so you can do it again for loot chance, or running with someone likely to call you an elitest jerk and having at best 1/3 the chance of getting loot due to the time investment. I feel most people want to stay in the friendlier environment with a better loot chance.
So, ymmv.
(Editing in; 'likely' used subjectively. Negative experiences stick with you and cause bias.)Edited by Shunravi on May 6, 2016 6:26PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
failkiwib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
But when they don't get any new content after 2 years after release of the game, it's no longer their fault for not getting any new content.failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »..regarding IC DLC
There is 0 siege warfare, 0 influence on Cyrodiil, ladders going up and down near base of every faction, and the Sigil of Imperial Retreat is bought for 10k AP is proof of how much they catered to the gankers and grinders.
The raiders and endgamers care about vICP and vWGT for the loot, and only 2 somewhat difficult dungeons, but these dungeons are exclusive and don't have any pvp in them.
The general pvp player have no reason to buy the IC DLC or subscribe to ESO at all. Which has lead to many players, including one of my officers to quit their subscription to ESO, simply because they don't need it nor want it.
Well then you have basically the reason, why nothing is done for them - they don't pay in the future, they don't get content.
At release of Imperial City DLC most pvp players I know did buy crowns/ subbed for access to the sewers, however IC turned out to cater to gankers, and pvp there have no effect on Cyrodiil - so they lost interest fast.
Since it is impossible to have pets activated in Cyrodiil they don't invest in those - otherwise pvp players buy just as many mounts, costumes, vamp & werewolf bites, motifs and other items through the crown store as the rest of us, and should they ever get a DLC they could have fun in, they would pay for that just as well.Edited by failkiwib16_ESO on May 6, 2016 6:38PM2 -
KoshkaMurka wrote: »No, this is not a thread about developers. Its about the playerbase, some of its vocal part.
There's many topics about nerfing vICP and vWGT dungeons and there's plenty of people saying that "if only 10% of the playerbase can finish X, then X shoudl be nerfed so every player can finish it".
But from this point of view, why those 10% cant have 0,000001% (or so) of the content. I've never seen raiders begging Zos to convert everything in the game to raids and pvpers begging to disable all pve. Why casualssome of the casuals are so entitled? I mean, I dont have anything against people who are not interested in minmaxing etc, to each their own. But why do they deny others the right to play how they want (=at least with minimal challenge)? Can someone explain this? Are they really that greedy and arrogant or they just dont understand how mmos work?
Cause seriously, this "communist" approach is so toxic for the game.
Wholeheartedly agree with you. I'm a casual PvE'er but the main reason I ultimately leave a game is that it becomes so bogged down in people crying for easier content that there's eventually no challenge left. The truth is, that 10% at the top clearing the 'harder' content is the carrot that many other players reach for. If there's no carrot and the content is too easy, what's left?3 -
nimander99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OP, I'm honestly having trouble figuring out if you are talking about this game's player base or the West's populations at large... Was this a cleverly disguised political topic?Edited by nimander99 on May 6, 2016 7:16PMI AM UPDATING MY PRIVACY POLICY
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
∽∽∽ 2 years of Elder Scrolls Online ∼∼∼
"Give us money" = Box sales & monthly sub fees,
"moar!" = £10 palomino horse,
"MOAR!" = Switch to B2P, launch cash shop,
"MOAR!!" = Charge for DLC that subs had already paid for,
"MOAR!!!" = Experience scrolls and riding lessons,
"MOARR!!!" = Vampire/werewolf bites,
"MOAARRR!!!" = CS exclusive motifs,
"MOOAARRR!!!" = Crown crates,
"MOOOAAARRR!!!" = 'Chapter's' bought separately from ESO+,
"MOOOOAAAARRRR!!!!" = ???
Male, Dunmer, VR16, Templar, Aldmeri Dominion, Master Crafter & all Traits, CP4501