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Greed, greeed, greed
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failkiwib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS give us a new 4-mans dungeon to play in, and you can nerf the old ones to be as hard as Wayrest Sewers is with 0 complain from us.
2 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.Edited by LadyNalcarya on May 6, 2016 2:07PMDro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU3 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Edit: as far as single player games go, which can be modded, I am one of those who is using a lot of surival mods and mods which make things harder - less in combat difficulty, but in regards to survival. I love the new fallout 4 survival mode, it is much nearer to the way I normally play games like this. And this is the first time, that I do not need mods in fallout 4 but am quite happy with the original content and the DLCs - in the new survival mode that is, the older modes did not catch my attention that much like the new survival mode.
This is a good point.
And btw, this is a great possibility for some of dlc quests. After all, we already have some puzzles - like that hidden skyshard in Bahraha's Gloom or dwemer puzzle in Grayston Quarry. A few survival side missions would be also interesting.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU2 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Guaranteed if they revamp craglorn people will go there. Right now even IC is used more than craglorn. When there was an option to skip it 99% of the playerbase did. Thats why they said they have "plans" for craglorn. Im assuming they mean scaling it and making it more solo friendly.
If craglorn scaled to vr16 or 160cp whatever it will be then I bet more would go there. By the time you can solo there you have outleveled the area and there is no point in it.
Why? What's the difference whether your enemy is CP120/140/160 if you just want to do the quests? It doesn't matter, the quests and all the things around stay the same. And as long as it stays at CP160 you will be able to outlevel it, so nothing changes there.
Exactly. The 'point' is the quests, the scenery, role-playing, just the environment in general. Its always been possible to solo, just the quests had locks for a while.
It has not always been possible. Maybe for the seasoned vets of the game but not for the everyday guy (or girl). Its not possible now as a matter of fact. Hence why noone uses it hardly. So like IC they are revamping it. Just IC was a priority because you know $$ and all.
Yea it has. I soloed in there when it launched (not everything of course, but a fair amount of things.) At vet 7. I believe the only armor set I had back then was song of lamae, and everything else was drops, so it wasn't as if I had 'elite' gear or anything either.
Though, I will say I am a seasoned player as I played through the silver and gold zones. That's really my only claim of expertise.
And you can solo a lot of it now. I have videos available on request.
And it certainly is a money thing. That's their focus. I just hope it actually works as I really like the zone.
If that would be just a money thing, why wouldnt they listen to casuals and add purely pve instance of IC? For quests and such.
Because then the whining would start "they took our only pvp DLC and gave it to the PvE crowd" - regardless what they do, there will always be complains from one side or the other.Edited by Lysette on May 6, 2016 2:10PM1 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.1 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Guaranteed if they revamp craglorn people will go there. Right now even IC is used more than craglorn. When there was an option to skip it 99% of the playerbase did. Thats why they said they have "plans" for craglorn. Im assuming they mean scaling it and making it more solo friendly.
If craglorn scaled to vr16 or 160cp whatever it will be then I bet more would go there. By the time you can solo there you have outleveled the area and there is no point in it.
Why? What's the difference whether your enemy is CP120/140/160 if you just want to do the quests? It doesn't matter, the quests and all the things around stay the same. And as long as it stays at CP160 you will be able to outlevel it, so nothing changes there.
Exactly. The 'point' is the quests, the scenery, role-playing, just the environment in general. Its always been possible to solo, just the quests had locks for a while.
It has not always been possible. Maybe for the seasoned vets of the game but not for the everyday guy (or girl). Its not possible now as a matter of fact. Hence why noone uses it hardly. So like IC they are revamping it. Just IC was a priority because you know $$ and all.
Yea it has. I soloed in there when it launched (not everything of course, but a fair amount of things.) At vet 7. I believe the only armor set I had back then was song of lamae, and everything else was drops, so it wasn't as if I had 'elite' gear or anything either.
Though, I will say I am a seasoned player as I played through the silver and gold zones. That's really my only claim of expertise.
And you can solo a lot of it now. I have videos available on request.
And it certainly is a money thing. That's their focus. I just hope it actually works as I really like the zone.
If that would be just a money thing, why wouldnt they listen to casuals and add purely pve instance of IC? For quests and such.
Because then the whining would start "they took our only pvp DLC and gave it to the PvE crowd" - regardless what they do, there will alwys be complains from one side or the other.
But that would at least make some sense.
Nerf means nothing for those who were qqing about the difficulty. Like I said, from my experience the only people who fail miserably in those dungeons are the ones who just ignore everything around them. They wont throw grenades, they wont jump in portals, they wont pick the pinion... And nerf to mobs hp and damage wont help them, cause they will continue dying to the mechanics. But at the same time, too low health and damage will just make it more boring for everyone else. And it will water down the "middle grounds" part.
Also this is bad for players who want to play support classes, as without need for healing and tanking, 4 damage dealers would have easier time than classic team of healer, tank and 2 dds.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU2 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Missed your edit when I quoted you.why worry about them amking it a little easier so others can do it too?
That's the reason I write guides, answer forum questions, and pug. To help others and make existing content easier for people who haven't done it yet, or simply do not have the time or patience to practice.
As a rule I dislike nerfs.
And the discussion here would be a lot tamer if they had announced harder 4 man content at the same time as nerfing older stuff.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Well, as Matt Firor said in an interview a few weeks ago, they HAVE game data that shows everything every player is doing in-game... which means they KNOW how many have completed what content and how many have failed and how many of those players eventually left the game, etc. So it seems to me they would be making these decisions about changes based upon that game data, and if it is clear that an overwhelming MAJORITY of players are unable to finish specific content, then it explains why they would make changes to make the content easier.
what that data does not show how ever is the reason they left or if they would have left anyway or how many will unsub or leave if nerfs like these are to become par for the course
And why do you think that would matter?- This is as well a form of balancing - less no-lifers, less 1337-players, but more casuals and average players, which can do the content - this is a form of balancing the player base by removing both, the unsuccessful (by making them more successful) and the 1337, who are no benefit for the community, but toxicate it. It would be no loss for the community and the game in a whole, if those would just leave for good.
The thing is, they released some really difficult content - like vMoL and vSO. So its not like they just gave up on "hardcore" crowd. vMoL for example has some very exquisite mechanics, not just "stack and burn".
But there's no middle grounds for people who are not super dedicated but still want some challenge, that's the problem. Also there's no content that would prepare people for this. Its either super easy (nothing wrong with that, super easy content is needed too) or super hard. I meet many people in game who would like to start raiding, and many new raidguilds appeared with vMoL release so its not like there's just a few people interested in it.
And btw, Im not a no-lifer, I play less than some casuals.
Its about interests in game, not just playtime.
P.S. Like I said, less grindyness would be more casual-friendly and more everyone-friendly and would allow people who dont play a lot to get good sets etc.
P.P.S Casuals are the majority of the game - but they are not homogenous mass. And TES fans are also very different, some play only with tgm and some install a ton of difficulty mods (which are very popular).
So if that is the problem, that there is no middle ground, maybe this should be addressed then instead to say, do not nerf this content. This is the first time, that I hear someone expressing this as being the problem - so it would be better IMO to say what the actual problem is, so that we could discuss that - instead to debate about if ZOS should nerf content or not. They do anyway that, what meets their expectations better - but they might not be aware of the problem of missing middle ground.
Yeah, but ICP and WGT have been nerfed several times and they already were middle grounds. City of Ash was released before champion system and also nerfed several times.
Theyre beatable with scaled up lower vets and non-optimized builds, but to beat them, you need to pay attention to the mechanics (bombs, portals, pinion...). I know that for sure, I help my guildies from social guild with those dungeons, and success only depends on willingness to play as a team. Of course, its easier with high dps, but its doable with low as well.
Ok, I start to see where you see the problem - lack of a requirement to actually use group abilities and learn to coordinate them. That you want to maintain content, which requires to get involved into actually having to learn the mechanics to beat the content. Did I get this correctly?
Edit: If I got that right, I think you have a valid point there - there should be content like this as well.Edited by Lysette on May 6, 2016 2:19PM0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
You are correct about solo and trial content, but what about 4-man content?
There is DSA that no one plays because its outdated.
There are pre-cp dungeons that are nerfed many times, directly and indirectly.
And more importantly, there's no middle grounds and no content for average players (and yes, these days average daily pugs are often doing dailies without a tank because theyre that easy), and no need for support classes outiside trials (play as you want, huh?).Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU3 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Well, as Matt Firor said in an interview a few weeks ago, they HAVE game data that shows everything every player is doing in-game... which means they KNOW how many have completed what content and how many have failed and how many of those players eventually left the game, etc. So it seems to me they would be making these decisions about changes based upon that game data, and if it is clear that an overwhelming MAJORITY of players are unable to finish specific content, then it explains why they would make changes to make the content easier.
what that data does not show how ever is the reason they left or if they would have left anyway or how many will unsub or leave if nerfs like these are to become par for the course
And why do you think that would matter?- This is as well a form of balancing - less no-lifers, less 1337-players, but more casuals and average players, which can do the content - this is a form of balancing the player base by removing both, the unsuccessful (by making them more successful) and the 1337, who are no benefit for the community, but toxicate it. It would be no loss for the community and the game in a whole, if those would just leave for good.
The thing is, they released some really difficult content - like vMoL and vSO. So its not like they just gave up on "hardcore" crowd. vMoL for example has some very exquisite mechanics, not just "stack and burn".
But there's no middle grounds for people who are not super dedicated but still want some challenge, that's the problem. Also there's no content that would prepare people for this. Its either super easy (nothing wrong with that, super easy content is needed too) or super hard. I meet many people in game who would like to start raiding, and many new raidguilds appeared with vMoL release so its not like there's just a few people interested in it.
And btw, Im not a no-lifer, I play less than some casuals. Its about interests in game, not just playtime.
P.S. Like I said, less grindyness would be more casual-friendly and more everyone-friendly and would allow people who dont play a lot to get good sets etc.
P.P.S Casuals are the majority of the game - but they are not homogenous mass. And TES fans are also very different, some play only with tgm and some install a ton of difficulty mods (which are very popular).
So if that is the problem, that there is no middle ground, maybe this should be addressed then instead to say, do not nerf this content. This is the first time, that I hear someone expressing this as being the problem - so it would be better IMO to say what the actual problem is, so that we could discuss that - instead to debate about if ZOS should nerf content or not. They do anyway that, what meets their expectations better - but they might not be aware of the problem of missing middle ground.
Yeah, but ICP and WGT have been nerfed several times and they already were middle grounds. City of Ash was released before champion system and also nerfed several times.
Theyre beatable with scaled up lower vets and non-optimized builds, but to beat them, you need to pay attention to the mechanics (bombs, portals, pinion...). I know that for sure, I help my guildies from social guild with those dungeons, and success only depends on willingness to play as a team. Of course, its easier with high dps, but its doable with low as well.
Ok, I start to see where you see the problem - lack of a requirement to actually use group abilities and learn to coordinate them. That you want to maintain content, which requires to get involved into actually having to learn the mechanics to beat the content. Did I get this correctly?
Edit: If I got that right, I think you have a valid point there - there should be content like this as well.
Bluntly, that's exactly it.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »Edit: as far as single player games go, which can be modded, I am one of those who is using a lot of surival mods and mods which make things harder - less in combat difficulty, but in regards to survival. I love the new fallout 4 survival mode, it is much nearer to the way I normally play games like this. And this is the first time, that I do not need mods in fallout 4 but am quite happy with the original content and the DLCs - in the new survival mode that is, the older modes did not catch my attention that much like the new survival mode.
This is a good point.
And btw, this is a great possibility for some of dlc quests. After all, we already have some puzzles - like that hidden skyshard in Bahraha's Gloom or dwemer puzzle in Grayston Quarry. A few survival side missions would be also interesting.
What I like with the new survival mode is that the combat is actually not harder, but more lethal, if you make a mistake. You can die instantly from making a mistake or being careless. It requires more strategic gameplay and I love that. I hate spongey enemies - those in fallout 4 new surival mode are not spongey, but they are quite nasty opponents, if you expose yourself to them, because they have high accuracy and just standing in the storm is not the way to go in this mode. It's fantastic.1 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Well, as Matt Firor said in an interview a few weeks ago, they HAVE game data that shows everything every player is doing in-game... which means they KNOW how many have completed what content and how many have failed and how many of those players eventually left the game, etc. So it seems to me they would be making these decisions about changes based upon that game data, and if it is clear that an overwhelming MAJORITY of players are unable to finish specific content, then it explains why they would make changes to make the content easier.
what that data does not show how ever is the reason they left or if they would have left anyway or how many will unsub or leave if nerfs like these are to become par for the course
And why do you think that would matter?- This is as well a form of balancing - less no-lifers, less 1337-players, but more casuals and average players, which can do the content - this is a form of balancing the player base by removing both, the unsuccessful (by making them more successful) and the 1337, who are no benefit for the community, but toxicate it. It would be no loss for the community and the game in a whole, if those would just leave for good.
The thing is, they released some really difficult content - like vMoL and vSO. So its not like they just gave up on "hardcore" crowd. vMoL for example has some very exquisite mechanics, not just "stack and burn".
But there's no middle grounds for people who are not super dedicated but still want some challenge, that's the problem. Also there's no content that would prepare people for this. Its either super easy (nothing wrong with that, super easy content is needed too) or super hard. I meet many people in game who would like to start raiding, and many new raidguilds appeared with vMoL release so its not like there's just a few people interested in it.
And btw, Im not a no-lifer, I play less than some casuals. Its about interests in game, not just playtime.
P.S. Like I said, less grindyness would be more casual-friendly and more everyone-friendly and would allow people who dont play a lot to get good sets etc.
P.P.S Casuals are the majority of the game - but they are not homogenous mass. And TES fans are also very different, some play only with tgm and some install a ton of difficulty mods (which are very popular).
So if that is the problem, that there is no middle ground, maybe this should be addressed then instead to say, do not nerf this content. This is the first time, that I hear someone expressing this as being the problem - so it would be better IMO to say what the actual problem is, so that we could discuss that - instead to debate about if ZOS should nerf content or not. They do anyway that, what meets their expectations better - but they might not be aware of the problem of missing middle ground.
Yeah, but ICP and WGT have been nerfed several times and they already were middle grounds. City of Ash was released before champion system and also nerfed several times.
Theyre beatable with scaled up lower vets and non-optimized builds, but to beat them, you need to pay attention to the mechanics (bombs, portals, pinion...). I know that for sure, I help my guildies from social guild with those dungeons, and success only depends on willingness to play as a team. Of course, its easier with high dps, but its doable with low as well.
Ok, I start to see where you see the problem - lack of a requirement to actually use group abilities and learn to coordinate them. That you want to maintain content, which requires to get involved into actually having to learn the mechanics to beat the content. Did I get this correctly?
Edit: If I got that right, I think you have a valid point there - there should be content like this as well.
Yes, that's correct. And they tend to make harder content, like vMoL, really mechanic-dependent, and based on team synergy, so it would make sense to have something easier but still relying on these concepts.
As for nerfs to IC dungeons, it depends on how hard they will nerf them in the final version. I dont know, maybe they will reduce difficulty even further, so people who ignore mechanics can beat them - but that would defeat the point of having the mechanics at all...Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Missed your edit when I quoted you.why worry about them amking it a little easier so others can do it too?
That's the reason I write guides, answer forum questions, and pug. To help others and make existing content easier for people who haven't done it yet, or simply do not have the time or patience to practice.
As a rule I dislike nerfs.
And the discussion here would be a lot tamer if they had announced harder 4 man content at the same time as nerfing older stuff.
The problem is say I go to the guy with the money at ZOS and I tell them I want to make another difficult 4 man. They remind me of the last 4 mans and how they arent very popular according to the numbers they have. Not opinions on forums but hard numbers and factual data. Then he says no I dont think we can budget that. I got an idea tho. IC isnt selling we need to do some serious changes to it. We spent a lot of money on it and its underutilized.
I guess thats probably pretty close to what happened.1 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Well, as Matt Firor said in an interview a few weeks ago, they HAVE game data that shows everything every player is doing in-game... which means they KNOW how many have completed what content and how many have failed and how many of those players eventually left the game, etc. So it seems to me they would be making these decisions about changes based upon that game data, and if it is clear that an overwhelming MAJORITY of players are unable to finish specific content, then it explains why they would make changes to make the content easier.
what that data does not show how ever is the reason they left or if they would have left anyway or how many will unsub or leave if nerfs like these are to become par for the course
And why do you think that would matter?- This is as well a form of balancing - less no-lifers, less 1337-players, but more casuals and average players, which can do the content - this is a form of balancing the player base by removing both, the unsuccessful (by making them more successful) and the 1337, who are no benefit for the community, but toxicate it. It would be no loss for the community and the game in a whole, if those would just leave for good.
The thing is, they released some really difficult content - like vMoL and vSO. So its not like they just gave up on "hardcore" crowd. vMoL for example has some very exquisite mechanics, not just "stack and burn".
But there's no middle grounds for people who are not super dedicated but still want some challenge, that's the problem. Also there's no content that would prepare people for this. Its either super easy (nothing wrong with that, super easy content is needed too) or super hard. I meet many people in game who would like to start raiding, and many new raidguilds appeared with vMoL release so its not like there's just a few people interested in it.
And btw, Im not a no-lifer, I play less than some casuals. Its about interests in game, not just playtime.
P.S. Like I said, less grindyness would be more casual-friendly and more everyone-friendly and would allow people who dont play a lot to get good sets etc.
P.P.S Casuals are the majority of the game - but they are not homogenous mass. And TES fans are also very different, some play only with tgm and some install a ton of difficulty mods (which are very popular).
So if that is the problem, that there is no middle ground, maybe this should be addressed then instead to say, do not nerf this content. This is the first time, that I hear someone expressing this as being the problem - so it would be better IMO to say what the actual problem is, so that we could discuss that - instead to debate about if ZOS should nerf content or not. They do anyway that, what meets their expectations better - but they might not be aware of the problem of missing middle ground.
Yeah, but ICP and WGT have been nerfed several times and they already were middle grounds. City of Ash was released before champion system and also nerfed several times.
Theyre beatable with scaled up lower vets and non-optimized builds, but to beat them, you need to pay attention to the mechanics (bombs, portals, pinion...). I know that for sure, I help my guildies from social guild with those dungeons, and success only depends on willingness to play as a team. Of course, its easier with high dps, but its doable with low as well.
Ok, I start to see where you see the problem - lack of a requirement to actually use group abilities and learn to coordinate them. That you want to maintain content, which requires to get involved into actually having to learn the mechanics to beat the content. Did I get this correctly?
Edit: If I got that right, I think you have a valid point there - there should be content like this as well.
Yes, that's correct. And they tend to make harder content, like vMoL, really mechanic-dependent, and based on team synergy, so it would make sense to have something easier but still relying on these concepts.
As for nerfs to IC dungeons, it depends on how hard they will nerf them in the final version. I dont know, maybe they will reduce difficulty even further, so people who ignore mechanics can beat them - but that would defeat the point of having the mechanics at all...
Say said they would not make sudden big changes with this, it is not as if they would make it 15% less difficult, but just slightly and then see how this effects the ultilization of the content. I think as well that they pay attention to how players do the content and can select those who try it in the intended way from those, who just farm there or have other intentions.0 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Missed your edit when I quoted you.why worry about them amking it a little easier so others can do it too?
That's the reason I write guides, answer forum questions, and pug. To help others and make existing content easier for people who haven't done it yet, or simply do not have the time or patience to practice.
As a rule I dislike nerfs.
And the discussion here would be a lot tamer if they had announced harder 4 man content at the same time as nerfing older stuff.
The problem is say I go to the guy with the money at ZOS and I tell them I want to make another difficult 4 man. They remind me of the last 4 mans and how they arent very popular according to the numbers they have. Not opinions on forums but hard numbers and factual data. Then he says no I dont think we can budget that. I got an idea tho. IC isnt selling we need to do some serious changes to it. We spent a lot of money on it and its underutilized.
I guess thats probably pretty close to what happened.
But why people are not that excited for IC and its dungeons?
Maybe its because the drop rates are so low that it takes hundreds of runs to get a full set?
Maybe its because there's community issues when people are getting rejected for not having experience?
Maybe its because IC itself is just farming/ganking grounds?
But nope, they decided to cater to instant gratification players.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Missed your edit when I quoted you.why worry about them amking it a little easier so others can do it too?
That's the reason I write guides, answer forum questions, and pug. To help others and make existing content easier for people who haven't done it yet, or simply do not have the time or patience to practice.
As a rule I dislike nerfs.
And the discussion here would be a lot tamer if they had announced harder 4 man content at the same time as nerfing older stuff.
The problem is say I go to the guy with the money at ZOS and I tell them I want to make another difficult 4 man. They remind me of the last 4 mans and how they arent very popular according to the numbers they have. Not opinions on forums but hard numbers and factual data. Then he says no I dont think we can budget that. I got an idea tho. IC isnt selling we need to do some serious changes to it. We spent a lot of money on it and its underutilized.
I guess thats probably pretty close to what happened.
And I've seen them constantly loose paying customers due to nerfs. Many people of the type who pay for crownstore stuff.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!2 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »Well, as Matt Firor said in an interview a few weeks ago, they HAVE game data that shows everything every player is doing in-game... which means they KNOW how many have completed what content and how many have failed and how many of those players eventually left the game, etc. So it seems to me they would be making these decisions about changes based upon that game data, and if it is clear that an overwhelming MAJORITY of players are unable to finish specific content, then it explains why they would make changes to make the content easier.
what that data does not show how ever is the reason they left or if they would have left anyway or how many will unsub or leave if nerfs like these are to become par for the course
And why do you think that would matter?- This is as well a form of balancing - less no-lifers, less 1337-players, but more casuals and average players, which can do the content - this is a form of balancing the player base by removing both, the unsuccessful (by making them more successful) and the 1337, who are no benefit for the community, but toxicate it. It would be no loss for the community and the game in a whole, if those would just leave for good.
The thing is, they released some really difficult content - like vMoL and vSO. So its not like they just gave up on "hardcore" crowd. vMoL for example has some very exquisite mechanics, not just "stack and burn".
But there's no middle grounds for people who are not super dedicated but still want some challenge, that's the problem. Also there's no content that would prepare people for this. Its either super easy (nothing wrong with that, super easy content is needed too) or super hard. I meet many people in game who would like to start raiding, and many new raidguilds appeared with vMoL release so its not like there's just a few people interested in it.
And btw, Im not a no-lifer, I play less than some casuals. Its about interests in game, not just playtime.
P.S. Like I said, less grindyness would be more casual-friendly and more everyone-friendly and would allow people who dont play a lot to get good sets etc.
P.P.S Casuals are the majority of the game - but they are not homogenous mass. And TES fans are also very different, some play only with tgm and some install a ton of difficulty mods (which are very popular).
So if that is the problem, that there is no middle ground, maybe this should be addressed then instead to say, do not nerf this content. This is the first time, that I hear someone expressing this as being the problem - so it would be better IMO to say what the actual problem is, so that we could discuss that - instead to debate about if ZOS should nerf content or not. They do anyway that, what meets their expectations better - but they might not be aware of the problem of missing middle ground.
Yeah, but ICP and WGT have been nerfed several times and they already were middle grounds. City of Ash was released before champion system and also nerfed several times.
Theyre beatable with scaled up lower vets and non-optimized builds, but to beat them, you need to pay attention to the mechanics (bombs, portals, pinion...). I know that for sure, I help my guildies from social guild with those dungeons, and success only depends on willingness to play as a team. Of course, its easier with high dps, but its doable with low as well.
Ok, I start to see where you see the problem - lack of a requirement to actually use group abilities and learn to coordinate them. That you want to maintain content, which requires to get involved into actually having to learn the mechanics to beat the content. Did I get this correctly?
Edit: If I got that right, I think you have a valid point there - there should be content like this as well.
Yes, that's correct. And they tend to make harder content, like vMoL, really mechanic-dependent, and based on team synergy, so it would make sense to have something easier but still relying on these concepts.
As for nerfs to IC dungeons, it depends on how hard they will nerf them in the final version. I dont know, maybe they will reduce difficulty even further, so people who ignore mechanics can beat them - but that would defeat the point of having the mechanics at all...
Say said they would not make sudden big changes with this, it is not as if they would make it 15% less difficult, but just slightly and then see how this effects the ultilization of the content. I think as well that they pay attention to how players do the content and can select those who try it in the intended way from those, who just farm there or have other intentions.
On pts, there are some really drastic changes.
I can only hope that they will consider some rebalance in final version.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Missed your edit when I quoted you.why worry about them amking it a little easier so others can do it too?
That's the reason I write guides, answer forum questions, and pug. To help others and make existing content easier for people who haven't done it yet, or simply do not have the time or patience to practice.
As a rule I dislike nerfs.
And the discussion here would be a lot tamer if they had announced harder 4 man content at the same time as nerfing older stuff.
The problem is say I go to the guy with the money at ZOS and I tell them I want to make another difficult 4 man. They remind me of the last 4 mans and how they arent very popular according to the numbers they have. Not opinions on forums but hard numbers and factual data. Then he says no I dont think we can budget that. I got an idea tho. IC isnt selling we need to do some serious changes to it. We spent a lot of money on it and its underutilized.
I guess thats probably pretty close to what happened.
But why people are not that excited for IC and its dungeons?
Maybe its because the drop rates are so low that it takes hundreds of runs to get a full set?
Maybe its because there's community issues when people are getting rejected for not having experience?
Maybe its because IC itself is just farming/ganking grounds?
But nope, they decided to cater to instant gratification players.
Actually I think the new district capture mechanics with buffs to those who "own" such a district, will change the way the IC will be utilized a lot, because now combat there has some meaning and it provides group benefits for the whole alliance.0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.Edited by Shunravi on May 6, 2016 2:40PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Missed your edit when I quoted you.why worry about them amking it a little easier so others can do it too?
That's the reason I write guides, answer forum questions, and pug. To help others and make existing content easier for people who haven't done it yet, or simply do not have the time or patience to practice.
As a rule I dislike nerfs.
And the discussion here would be a lot tamer if they had announced harder 4 man content at the same time as nerfing older stuff.
The problem is say I go to the guy with the money at ZOS and I tell them I want to make another difficult 4 man. They remind me of the last 4 mans and how they arent very popular according to the numbers they have. Not opinions on forums but hard numbers and factual data. Then he says no I dont think we can budget that. I got an idea tho. IC isnt selling we need to do some serious changes to it. We spent a lot of money on it and its underutilized.
I guess thats probably pretty close to what happened.
But why people are not that excited for IC and its dungeons?
Maybe its because the drop rates are so low that it takes hundreds of runs to get a full set?
Maybe its because there's community issues when people are getting rejected for not having experience?
Maybe its because IC itself is just farming/ganking grounds?
But nope, they decided to cater to instant gratification players.
Or maybe like they say its just too hard to appeal to enough people.1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.
Nah I said nothing like this, you comment on the wrong person.1 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.
I would love to see someone doing those dungeons with no gear no skill points spent and no CP solo. Sure lets see one.Edited by jamesharv2005ub17_ESO on May 6, 2016 2:42PM1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.
Nah I said nothing like this, you comment on the wrong person.
@Lysette I appologise for rush reading and misattributing the quote. I edited and and am sorry.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.
I would love to see someone doing those dungeons with no gear no skill points spent and no CP solo. Sure lets see one.
You see, so would I. That would be awesome.
But sadly no one capable of that has made any such claim. So I guess we will never see it.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Stuff being "easy" and stuff being " hard" is very very subjective. Everyone has different ideas of what it is. Or what it should be. So making blanket statements about difficulty is again opinion only. I stated before why they needed to revamp IC and it has nothing to do with casuals wanting all the content to be easy. I would guess most casuals havent bothered doing a single dungeon outside of say public ones or delves.
It isnt casuals out to ruin your day. Its just business. Its not personal its about the bottom line and how can they make the most money.
Zos has a very long history of listening to vocal minorities and hurting the rest - remember breath of life nerf?
Also I never said that everything in game should be harder, no. But there should be something for everyone, not just for 1 category of players.
There is something for everyone. Solo you got vMSA. You have vMoL which is arguably the most difficult trial they have done to date. Thats just the latest stuff. Plus the new scaled PVE stuff coming with DB. Dont forget also the 4 mans will still be difficult. I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case.
Need video proof?
Again just because one person can do it doesnt mean anyone can do it. Thats why like IC craglorn isnt being utilized. Its why they redid IC and why they are redoing craglorn.
Well you said its simply not the case that people can do these naked. That's what I was asking. Need video proof that they can?
And even if some can, what does it matter as long as not a lot more can do it?
That's irrelevant.
He* said "I know people are claiming they can do them solo naked and without any CP or skill points spent but thats simply not the case." And I'm asking if you need proof.
I would love to see someone doing those dungeons with no gear no skill points spent and no CP solo. Sure lets see one.
You see, so would I. That would be awesome.
But sadly no one capable of that has made any such claim. So I guess we will never see it.
Wait I thought you said you had video proof?1 -
failkiwib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭..regarding IC DLC
There is 0 siege warfare, 0 influence on Cyrodiil, ladders going up and down near base of every faction, and the Sigil of Imperial Retreat is bought for 10k AP is proof of how much they catered to the gankers and grinders.
The raiders and endgamers care about vICP and vWGT for the loot, and only 2 somewhat difficult dungeons, but these dungeons are exclusive and don't have any pvp in them.
The general pvp player have no reason to buy the IC DLC or subscribe to ESO at all. Which has lead to many players, including one of my officers to quit their subscription to ESO, simply because they don't need it nor want it.1