Incap Strike

Sharee · May 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Attackopsn

You really can't compare and AoE ability that does laughbly low damage in PvP to a single target ability that's just wrong. The passive may make it sound like it does work but why do you rarely see DKs utilizing this ultimate in PvP? It's because it has no use especially if my target can simply do one dodge roll to get out of it. Your best bet is to compare take flight against incap which incap does amazingly better as its super low cost and provides all those benefits which is BS.

Take flight is also AOE ability. And AOE CC. It hits six targets instead of one, for only about double the cost. Also can be used from 28m away. I am not sure i would say incap does 'amazingly better'.

EsoRecon · May 2016

Derra wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I guess it's just a coincidence that every single 'real' Nightblade, namely one that has played a Nightblade since the release of ESO, seems to agree that Incapacitating Strike in its current form on the PTS is overpowered.

This includes people who have been playing a Stamina Nightblade since March 2014.

well your wrong i dont and have played nighblades since early access
as an aside its really interesting that aside from this thread in all others you have claimed to be playing a sorc or magblade

There are ppl stating sorc shields on live are too weak aswell.

cant wait to hit one with a cc just before his shields expire so many are gonna have to l2p now there is a viable counter play that doesnt involve a dodgy set that nerfs your build

Just reduces build variety and nerfs any non cookie-cutter build more than those already tripplestacking. You´ll still need shieldbreaker but atleast that´s now a vailed and needed option against stamina and magica alike.

not really with the gcd by the time a triple stacker has cast the klast one the first will now be half expired. if they continue to try and keep all three up they arent doing any damage so its gonna be a double or single shield and thats where a timley cc with burst helps.

on a mag blade the obvious choice is to whittle there stam

The_Outsider wrote: »

Data from PTS (too lazy for screenshot):

Fully Buffed: Major Brutality + Relentless Focus
3.8k Weapon Damage
32k Stamina

Incap tooltip: 17k

so in pvp 8.5k then sounds reasonable

After having tested with templates on pts: I don´t think the dmg is a real issue. The stun on an instant non avoidable (unless you were already dodging/blocking) high dmg ability is.
Incap + relentless focus on pts puts any burst my sorc can put out to shame. The problem being that if you eat that incap the assassins scourge will hit you 100% (sorc burst gives the target a timer with curse and frags are easily dodged even in melee).
Admittedly only had a short time playing with that - still i think it´s the most potent burst skill combination currently in the game.

I´m not sure if i would adjust anything but if - it would be the stun on incap not the dmg (i´d replace it with a snare or short root).

oh thats just what we need, more snares

sarcasm ^

Sharee · May 2016

Re: stun on incap.

NB's have fear. Fear is

1, unblockable
2, not breaking on subsequent damage
3, a *** to break out of, virtually guaranteeing next hit won't be blocked/rolled.

Why on earth would anyone NOT use fear on a CC-vulnerable opponent before hitting him with an ultimate is beyond me. Stun on incap is a total non-factor, IMHO.

EsoRecon · May 2016

Sharee wrote: »

Re: stun on incap.

NB's have fear. Fear is

1, unblockable
2, not breaking on subsequent damage
3, a *** to break out of, virtually guaranteeing next hit won't be blocked/rolled.

Why on earth would anyone NOT use fear on a CC-vulnerable opponent before hitting him with an ultimate is beyond me. Stun on incap is a total non-factor, IMHO.

agreed, probably 80% of the time i use fear before my ult. I only ult before fear if my target is extremely tanky or has insane healing.

EsoRecon · May 2016

zos could take the stun away and I wouldn't notice, but then that means they need to replace the stun with something else. hmmm

Lokov · May 2016

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

Their combat designer is to nooby to know something about balance. Im playing as magicka NB and I am perplexed now. I dont want to respec to stamina or play as another class but this changes is crazy OP

Strider_Roshin · May 2016

EsoRecon wrote: »

zos could take the stun away and I wouldn't notice, but then that means they need to replace the stun with something else. hmmm

Agreed, if anything I find the stun to be a negative. I would love something else in its place.

Derra · May 2016

Sharee wrote: »

Re: stun on incap.

NB's have fear. Fear is

1, unblockable
2, not breaking on subsequent damage
3, a *** to break out of, virtually guaranteeing next hit won't be blocked/rolled.

Why on earth would anyone NOT use fear on a CC-vulnerable opponent before hitting him with an ultimate is beyond me. Stun on incap is a total non-factor, IMHO.

Because if you hit them with fear => incap the next hit is most likely to be dodged.
If you directly attack them with incap => assassins scourge they get hit for a 20% buffed scourge that is absolutely not avoidable.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · May 2016

EsoRecon wrote: »

zos could take the stun away and I wouldn't notice, but then that means they need to replace the stun with something else. hmmm

Or they could just leave it like that without anything to replace it like they did with shields

staracino_ESO · May 2016

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

zos could take the stun away and I wouldn't notice, but then that means they need to replace the stun with something else. hmmm

Or they could just leave it like that without anything to replace it like they did with shields

And most of the Templar abilities.

MaxwellC · May 2016

@Sharee

Take flight has an AoE property but it does high damage on single targets that's why the comparison to incap strike is better than a useless ultimate (in PvP that is) being compared to an OP ultimate like Incap strike.

It can be used 28m away and be dodged from that far away too; I mean you can literally side step the ability and it misses so no lol that doesn't make it better. I should also mention it's obvious to dodge I mean I literally have to CC someone while incap is literally instant and hard to see. It can hit 6 targets without being affected by the cap but you'll rarely hit over 10k damage but compare that to incap strike and the benefits it provides; seriously it's pretty damn good for NBs.

Also how is it not better.
Take Flight AoE ability that CCs upon impact
Can be used 28m away (41 in PvP with passives)
125 Ulti Cost
Passives restore resources upon use

Incap Strike
Stuns target for 6 seconds
Increases damage against hit targets by 20%
Major defile applied upon hit
Passive increases crit damage by 2191 (Rank 2)

So let me ask you which is better again? I'd take Incap strike over a take flight that can dodge players might I also add with the changes the incap strike will knock down enemies when used against them at any health threshold. Yup that's balance.

EsoRecon · May 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Sharee

Take flight has an AoE property but it does high damage on single targets that's why the comparison to incap strike is better than a useless ultimate (in PvP that is) being compared to an OP ultimate like Incap strike.

It can be used 28m away and be dodged from that far away too; I mean you can literally side step the ability and it misses so no lol that doesn't make it better. I should also mention it's obvious to dodge I mean I literally have to CC someone while incap is literally instant and hard to see. It can hit 6 targets without being affected by the cap but you'll rarely hit over 10k damage but compare that to incap strike and the benefits it provides; seriously it's pretty damn good for NBs.

Also how is it not better.
Take Flight AoE ability that CCs upon impact
Can be used 28m away (41 in PvP with passives)
125 Ulti Cost
Passives restore resources upon use

Incap Strike
Stuns target for 6 seconds
Increases damage against hit targets by 20%
Major defile applied upon hit
Passive increases crit damage by 2191 (Rank 2)

So let me ask you which is better again? I'd take Incap strike over a take flight that can dodge players might I also add with the changes the incap strike will knock down enemies when used against them at any health threshold. Yup that's balance.

idk about you but that sounds balanced to me and i dont even play a nightblade.

Ragnaroek93 · May 2016

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Re: stun on incap.

NB's have fear. Fear is

1, unblockable
2, not breaking on subsequent damage
3, a *** to break out of, virtually guaranteeing next hit won't be blocked/rolled.

Why on earth would anyone NOT use fear on a CC-vulnerable opponent before hitting him with an ultimate is beyond me. Stun on incap is a total non-factor, IMHO.

Because if you hit them with fear => incap the next hit is most likely to be dodged.
If you directly attack them with incap => assassins scourge they get hit for a 20% buffed scourge that is absolutely not avoidable.

You can still go Incap -> Fear -> Assassins Scourge so it wouldn't matter much if there is a stun or not on Incap. That's a problem in my opinion but it's not only on Stamblade. Manablade can do similar things (+ Deto which isn't that easy to predict because the spell can just be recastet before it explodes and resets the timer) and Stamdks can deal much burst dmg too with Dragonleap (maybe not as much as Stamblade on PTS but they are way more tanky). ZOS created this meta which is only based on burst, and I don't really like it to be honest. Making burst combos unavoidable (or very hard to predict) is a bad move. On the other hand we need high burst combos to get through sorc shields, stamdks with Major Mending and 20k Vigor heals. I don't really know how to fix this. Maybe with softcaps but that's probably too late now.

And please stop comparing Incap to Dragonleap. You need to compare the overall kit of the classes and not only the ultimates that the classes have.

mr_wazzabi · May 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

zos could take the stun away and I wouldn't notice, but then that means they need to replace the stun with something else. hmmm

Agreed, if anything I find the stun to be a negative. I would love something else in its place.

Ultimate gain!!!!

Just make inc strike and soul harvest equal to each other but inc strike scale off mighty!

Takes-No-Prisoner · May 2016

A thing to point out if we're going to start comparing Take Flight to Incap Strike;

1. Both can be blocked.

2. You can bait out a DK to Take Flight. I had a situation where I harassed a DK at Arrius from 15 meters away with Bombard/Poison injection and he took the bait to use his ult which got blocked when he landed next to me.

3. Incap Strike is trickier to bait out, because NB shines the most when hes right next to you. And the ability is automatically grayed out when the target out of its very short activation range. It's a 50/50 chance hes gonna use it depending on if you have access to very strong heals. Most of the time NB vs Any Class encounters go something like; NB gets in close, SA or Fear/SA. Target goes on the defense with a CC break/Roll Dodge and proceed to pop his shields/heals/purge and tries to attack back to gain some distance between him and the NB. Anyone here knows that keeping distance from a NB is the key to staying alive and sniping the NB down with Sweeps+Spears from Templar, Crystal Frag+Streak and DK can just mitigate through armor buffs and attack with his CQC abilities. If any class has anything to be afraid of Incap Strike its the DK. But the DK with his armor will be happy to engage in CQC because that's his favorite spot to be in too.

Currently when I use Death Stroke/Morphs on PS4, I use it as a 'FINISH HIM!' move or if the Lethal Arrow defile didn't connect and the target has strong heals then that would force me to use it. So I must ask now, how many situations is the NB running Incap strike going to run into where he needs the extra damage on a target with a very strong heal? We as a class do need access to Major Defile or our stacked DPS through empower/potions/gear/passives buffs just won't work. Gunning down a target with potent heals is a high priority for us PvPers fighting against organized groups.

kadar · May 2016

The_Outsider wrote: »

Data from PTS (too lazy for screenshot):

Fully Buffed: Major Brutality + Relentless Focus
3.8k Weapon Damage
32k Stamina

Incap tooltip: 17k

Also: 100 points in Mighty.

For final damage estimate:
17/2 = 8.5k
8.5k - target physical resist
Crit = 8.5 * (1.6- target impen)

So you're looking at less than 8.5k hit if I don't crit you (not sure how to factor in physical resist accurately).
Less than 13.6k if I Crit and target has ZERO impen.

Edziu · May 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Incap Strike
Stuns target for 6 seconds
Increases damage against hit targets by 20%
Major defile applied upon hit
Passive increases crit damage by 2191 (Rank 2)

So let me ask you which is better again? I'd take Incap strike over a take flight that can dodge players might I also add with the changes the incap strike will knock down enemies when used against them at any health threshold. Yup that's balance.

bwah, this is passive bonus after slotted any assaination ability lol and cant be stacked, with this also ambush work lel

stuns for 6 sec? lol, maybe dont saw it....but why you have problem with 6 sec stun if you always break any cc in 1-2 second from getting this?
Increases damage byt 20% and major defila also is only 6 sec, if you have problem with it...you dying, l2p

6 seconds isnt very long, just block this short time, spam heale, dodge, shieldpsam, its only 6 sec..it isnt hard to stay alive in these 6 seconds..just maybe be only on defensive in these few seconds instead on trying to spam dps to kill this nb

I have fightet with some players and the just tanket these few seconds debuf and it wasnt any problem to they

FearlessOne_2014 · May 2016

Much entertainment in this tread indeed, popcorn wasn't wasted at all here. Ok here what I'm seeing in threads like these. NOBODY in these threads give any care about skill or class balance. It's just abunch of players lobbying to ZOS and the community to make their playstyle the only "GOD-TIER'ed" playstyle in the game. In my honest opinion ZOS should not take anything players like these have to say serious. Instead ZOS should simply pay a bunch of professional unbiased testers to do the work.

Ok I'm done yall can go back to lobbying for each one of yalls playstyles to become god teir'ed playstyles now, while I monitor, laugh, and finish my popcorn watching this farce.

Sharee · May 2016

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Re: stun on incap.

NB's have fear. Fear is

1, unblockable
2, not breaking on subsequent damage
3, a *** to break out of, virtually guaranteeing next hit won't be blocked/rolled.

Why on earth would anyone NOT use fear on a CC-vulnerable opponent before hitting him with an ultimate is beyond me. Stun on incap is a total non-factor, IMHO.

Because if you hit them with fear => incap the next hit is most likely to be dodged.

And without the fear your next hit is likely to get blocked.

I'm playing a heavy armor magicka DK. When i have a glass cannon NB wailing on me, i simply cannot afford to drop block - their damage output is insane with just surprise attack weave spam, heavy armor or not. I have to block through their initial burst, and only drop block to regen stamina while the enemy is CC-ed in one way or another.

Derra wrote: »

If you directly attack them with incap => assassins scourge they get hit for a 20% buffed scourge that is absolutely not avoidable.

If he directly attacks me with that, then he wasted his ult to scratch the paint off my shield and the scourge is likely to get reflected back into his face.

leepalmer95 · May 2016

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Re: stun on incap.

NB's have fear. Fear is

1, unblockable
2, not breaking on subsequent damage
3, a *** to break out of, virtually guaranteeing next hit won't be blocked/rolled.

Why on earth would anyone NOT use fear on a CC-vulnerable opponent before hitting him with an ultimate is beyond me. Stun on incap is a total non-factor, IMHO.

Because if you hit them with fear => incap the next hit is most likely to be dodged.

And without the fear your next hit is likely to get blocked.

I'm playing a heavy armor magicka DK. When i have a glass cannon NB wailing on me, i simply cannot afford to drop block - their damage output is insane with just surprise attack weave spam, heavy armor or not. I have to block through their initial burst, and only drop block to regen stamina while the enemy is CC-ed in one way or another.

Derra wrote: »

If you directly attack them with incap => assassins scourge they get hit for a 20% buffed scourge that is absolutely not avoidable.

If he directly attacks me with that, then he wasted his ult to scratch the paint off my shield and the scourge is likely to get reflected back into his face.

It's all about timing, yes when dealing with perma blockers you have to fear.

But most people aren't expecting nb's the cc you with their ult. If you get the timing right you can deal some nasty dmg with incap + relentless focus.

bowmanz607 · May 2016

Lokov wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

Their combat designer is to nooby to know something about balance. Im playing as magicka NB and I am perplexed now. I dont want to respec to stamina or play as another class but this changes is crazy OP

Yes, this one ability make stamina op and way better than mag????? They are different playstyles that offer different tactics. Both are equally viable. Both have great dps etc. Sul harvest hits just as hard there is no reason to switch to Stam unless you enjoy that playstyles more. It is personal preference. Stop being over dramatic

bowmanz607 · May 2016

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

zos could take the stun away and I wouldn't notice, but then that means they need to replace the stun with something else. hmmm

Agreed, if anything I find the stun to be a negative. I would love something else in its place.

Ultimate gain!!!!

Just make inc strike and soul harvest equal to each other but inc strike scale off mighty!

They are equal. Except soul harvest can be utilized more often. Go test it.

Sharee · May 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Re: stun on incap.

NB's have fear. Fear is

1, unblockable
2, not breaking on subsequent damage
3, a *** to break out of, virtually guaranteeing next hit won't be blocked/rolled.

Why on earth would anyone NOT use fear on a CC-vulnerable opponent before hitting him with an ultimate is beyond me. Stun on incap is a total non-factor, IMHO.

Because if you hit them with fear => incap the next hit is most likely to be dodged.

And without the fear your next hit is likely to get blocked.

I'm playing a heavy armor magicka DK. When i have a glass cannon NB wailing on me, i simply cannot afford to drop block - their damage output is insane with just surprise attack weave spam, heavy armor or not. I have to block through their initial burst, and only drop block to regen stamina while the enemy is CC-ed in one way or another.

Derra wrote: »

If you directly attack them with incap => assassins scourge they get hit for a 20% buffed scourge that is absolutely not avoidable.

If he directly attacks me with that, then he wasted his ult to scratch the paint off my shield and the scourge is likely to get reflected back into his face.

It's all about timing, yes when dealing with perma blockers you have to fear.

But most people aren't expecting nb's the cc you with their ult. If you get the timing right you can deal some nasty dmg with incap + relentless focus.

Maybe so, but that's hardly the fault of the ult, is it.

Takes-No-Prisoner · May 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

But most people aren't expecting nb's the cc you with their ult. If you get the timing right you can deal some nasty dmg with incap + relentless focus.

If the NB has Relentless active and is putting in some LA, absolutely. It'll still proc the buff even if the ability is slotted on the other weapon bar. Which is pretty cool that it gets 'stored' away like that for a few seconds. That ability is probably one of NB most unique tools it has. And, arguably, one of the best 'surprise!!!' factors a NB can whip out at a moments notice.

Burning_Talons · May 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback! Just a heads up that we’re continuing to keep an eye on the effectiveness of this ability, and Death Stroke in general. 50 ultimate is definitely a fantastic deal for the burst potential this ability affords. We will continue to evaluate Death Stroke's strength during this testing cycle.

While you're at, make sure you evaluate the damage potential of overload, dark flare, and radiant destruction.

Dark flare is 1.3 sec interuptable cast, how it get here? Why you also didn't mention snipe which deals same damage and have less cast time?

What's that stupid excuse that magicka sorcs, and Templars like to give? Oh yes, "but it's all we have for DPS! So it's balanced".

Btw dark flare does more damage since it empowers itself. It's like a long distance wrecking blow that debuffs. Wait a minute! Grants empowered, causes major defile? These buffs and debuffs sound strangely familiar...

All of these have counterz and not an instant cast unlike death stroke. I can interupt or reflect a death stroke which is instant cast

MaxwellC · May 2016

@Edziu
Are you trolling me or just an idiot I hope it's the first rather than the latter. I never said I had a problem with Incap strike Pre DB but even in my comment I never said anything about having a problem with it. I responded to a comment where the comparison of a low damaging AoE ability was being compared to incap a high damage single targeted ability which I gave an alternative an AoE ability that does high damage on single targets as a better example.

Incap strike is OP for the cost it has with the benefits the ultimate alone gives. So yes again I hope you are trolling me man because wow lol....

P.S 6 seconds is good enough to burst someone down especially if you get them below 75% health which with this update knocks them down regardless (If you have 75 CP in ritual you get an extra 10% damage). By the time someone breaks free and tries to heal what will you heal with?

Edziu · May 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Edziu
Are you trolling me or just an idiot I hope it's the first rather than the latter. I never said I had a problem with Incap strike Pre DB but even in my comment I never said anything about having a problem with it. I responded to a comment where the comparison of a low damaging AoE ability was being compared to incap a high damage single targeted ability which I gave an alternative an AoE ability that does high damage on single targets as a better example.

Incap strike is OP for the cost it has with the benefits the ultimate alone gives. So yes again I hope you are trolling me man because wow lol....

P.S 6 seconds is good enough to burst someone down especially if you get them below 75% health which with this update knocks them down regardless (If you have 75 CP in ritual you get an extra 10% damage). By the time someone breaks free and tries to heal what will you heal with?

for 1st - yes :>
and now...before tg I almost never hitting harder from inca than my SA lol, now just some hitting harder because people have mor dmg reduction in cp to psyhical than magic

nah...wanted write some more but in half text I noticed its pointless

just better burst on single target for assasint and thats all, maybe I will gang with dawnbreaker for weapon dmg buff without using ult if it will be to coslty

deximasb14_ESO · May 2016

Why does the cc even matter, a good player will use ambush for the empower strike after because it is now worth it. So that stun really means nothing at all so focus on the rest. Personally I see no issue with the dmg. It only hits one target so yes it should hit hard. I see it more for pve boss dmg than anything. Yea it will be exploited in pvp. But So did evil Hunter spambush, and double snipe when that was a thing

Derra · May 2016

Sharee wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Re: stun on incap.

NB's have fear. Fear is

1, unblockable
2, not breaking on subsequent damage
3, a *** to break out of, virtually guaranteeing next hit won't be blocked/rolled.

Why on earth would anyone NOT use fear on a CC-vulnerable opponent before hitting him with an ultimate is beyond me. Stun on incap is a total non-factor, IMHO.

Because if you hit them with fear => incap the next hit is most likely to be dodged.

And without the fear your next hit is likely to get blocked.

I'm playing a heavy armor magicka DK. When i have a glass cannon NB wailing on me, i simply cannot afford to drop block - their damage output is insane with just surprise attack weave spam, heavy armor or not. I have to block through their initial burst, and only drop block to regen stamina while the enemy is CC-ed in one way or another.

Derra wrote: »

If you directly attack them with incap => assassins scourge they get hit for a 20% buffed scourge that is absolutely not avoidable.

If he directly attacks me with that, then he wasted his ult to scratch the paint off my shield and the scourge is likely to get reflected back into his face.

It's all about timing, yes when dealing with perma blockers you have to fear.

But most people aren't expecting nb's the cc you with their ult. If you get the timing right you can deal some nasty dmg with incap + relentless focus.

Maybe so, but that's hardly the fault of the ult, is it.

A heavy armor DK is about the only occasion someone can affort to block for extended periods of time (and that´s also the only case where you have to fear at all in this combo). No other build can reliably counter incap (you don´t know when it´s coming) with blocking - even against you build i´d open with incap on block just for the healdebuff and dmg buff into fear => assassins will.

The fear just isn´t needed against other non tank builds anymore.

LeifErickson · May 2016

This ability as a whole may or may not be OP with everything it offers, but two things to note before it is considered for a nerf is that magicka NBs can hit just as hard with it now on live that stamina NBs will with Dark Brotherhood and if the damage is nerfed, it will be trash in Azura's Star. Most people would use Dawnbreaker over Incap Strike in Azura's if the damage is nerfed because it will just be so weak in there.