Incap Strike

kadar

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

I wasn't blocking, that's for sure. My physical resistance is always around 10K (light armor), and my CP passive to reduce physical damage is around 11%, as is my passive to reduce critical damage. I wasn't wearing any Impenetrable.

Once again, how is a 16k critical hit (cause by an Ultimate)(buffed by Empower) against a player in 7/7 Light Armor with Zero Impen and 11% in Hardy a problem?

If the NB offender is running a high-regen build, sure that's hefty damage, but until that player comes forward we won't know.

I didn't say it was a problem, I just thought it was funny. I'm not the one who started the thread, but the guy who DID start the thread used my screenshot, which I posted originally in a different thread.

I was just filling in the background info for someone who asked, because I'm the only one who knows what armor I was wearing.

Totally. My comment was addressed at the OP and the people asking for Incap Strike nerfs.
I keep re-quoting the comment because so far it has (conveniently) remained unanswered by said ppl. /shrug

kadar

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

ZOS has historically decided against nerfing strong skills/mechanics (e.g. Cloak) because of how easy they are to counter. Incap Strike is quite easy to counter imo, passively even. Consider the number of players in Cyrodiil who do a combination of the following almost constantly: roll dodge, block, cloak, perma-major evasion. Any one of those mechanics will either completely or mostly nullify Incap Strike.
As a single target Ultimate, it must have higher damage than AOE Ultimates. If it's damage is reduced too much, it falls below my WB tooltip, and dangerously close to my surprise attack tooltip. At that point, opportunity cost makes it a useless skill.

I see a couple arguments saying that comparing Incap with Overload is an invalid comparison because they aren't similar in function. Truth is, anyone could restate their supposed differences as similarities. It's a difference of perspective.

A single target ultimate that stuns and heal debuffs which can be used rougly 3 times on a potion cooldown.

Ambush > Fear > Cloak > Incap > Execute and on to the next target to repeat the exact same combo because Incap will be up again.

Great idea if you ask me!

Why quote comment and then not address its contents?

Single target Ult is a handicap not a feature.
Stun. Irrelevant based on the rotation you just proposed because they will still have CC immunity (or still be feared).
Like I mentioned above^^--Lower the damage and you've got a clunky SA that adds Defile and costs 50 Ult. I'll just cast SA again and charge my Meteor.

Single target is no handicap at all, you will hit one target with SA and Ambush so it fits perfectly.

The stun makes no difference in the rotation but you can use this to your advantage from stealth for example.

Major Defile is a strong tool, especially vs stam builds that already have limited healing.

I do agree that it should not become a cluncky SA but the cost of 50 ult for such a strong ultimate is way too low.

Single Target has one advantage over AOE: Higher damage. Take that away, and it is a handicap vs. using an AOE Ult for example. If we reduce the damage/increase the cost, why would I use that over Dawnbreaker? I'd be dealing more damage, potentially to multi-targets, much easier to land, and for just a bit more Ultimate.

The stun is a neat bonus, but I don't think anyone would mind if that were taken off. I mean the main point of the skill is burst and heal debuff, right?

Lyar09

EsoRecon wrote: »

Jordaen wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

What class are you op?

He mains a Stam temp

Pffft I could start complaining about how "OP" stam templars healing is or state that dawnbreaker hits just as hard as incap now... hmmm maybe the problem is he just can't beat a stamblade.

But you'd be wrong in your assumption. I beat many nightblades and only really lose to few good ones. I made this thread to point out that incap is op. You can pick and choose what portion of it is op or not. I personally think it has too much utility for the cost. It shouldnt give major defile, increase damage by 20%, knockdown, and cost only 50 ult. That is over board for a single ability. Now you can keep acting childish spouting off "qq, l2p, overload this, overload that" but just know that even the best of players in this game are in agreeance with my statement.

Also, dawnbreaker doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as incap. I've tested with as high as weapon damage as you can get to and it doesn't come anywhere close. You're probably just looking at the tooltip and don't realize that it doesn't got that hard. Dawnbreaker also doesn't offer the you the utility incap does or the cost.

DDuke

Lyar09 wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

Jordaen wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

What class are you op?

He mains a Stam temp

Pffft I could start complaining about how "OP" stam templars healing is or state that dawnbreaker hits just as hard as incap now... hmmm maybe the problem is he just can't beat a stamblade.

But you'd be wrong in your assumption. I beat many nightblades and only really lose to few good ones. I made this thread to point out that incap is op. You can pick and choose what portion of it is op or not. I personally think it has too much utility for the cost. It shouldnt give major defile, increase damage by 20%, knockdown, and cost only 50 ult. That is over board for a single ability. Now you can keep acting childish spouting off "qq, l2p, overload this, overload that" but just know that even the best of players in this game are in agreeance with my statement.

Also, dawnbreaker doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as incap. I've tested with as high as weapon damage as you can get to and it doesn't come anywhere close. You're probably just looking at the tooltip and don't realize that it doesn't got that hard. Dawnbreaker also doesn't offer the you the utility incap does or the cost.

I'd love to see some numbers of those tests (from PTS hopefully), because DB+1st DoT tick is supposed to be around 10% more dmg than Incap. Wouldn't be the first time tooltips lie however.

Jaronking

EsoRecon wrote: »

Jordaen wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

What class are you op?

He mains a Stam temp

Pffft I could start complaining about how "OP" stam templars healing is or state that dawnbreaker hits just as hard as incap now... hmmm maybe the problem is he just can't beat a stamblade.

Stamplar are OP man.

ManDraKE

Lyar09 wrote: »

. I personally think it has too much utility for the cost. It shouldnt give major defile, increase damage by 20%, knockdown, and cost only 50 ult. That is over board for a single ability. Now you can keep acting childish spouting off "qq, l2p, overload this, overload that" but just know that even the best of players in this game are in agreeance with my statement.

From a dueling point of view you are right, incap on DB is probably going to be the most effective ultimate in 1vs1, but the game is not balanced to 1vs1. It have a lot of utility? yes, but is single target, compared to other ultimates that have a bit less utility but can hit multiple targets its not that unbalanced. There is not point in having single target ultimate that is equally effective at single target than AoE ultimate.

Incap: High dmg to 1 target + CC to 1 target + Major defile
Other AoE ultimates: High damage to multiple targets + CC to multiple targets

Seems balanced imo. If incap is going to hit like dawnbreaker or any other ulti, there is no point in using it, you better run dawnbreaker and hit everyone in front of you.

AfkNinja

EsoRecon wrote: »

Jordaen wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

What class are you op?

He mains a Stam temp

Pffft I could start complaining about how "OP" stam templars healing is or state that dawnbreaker hits just as hard as incap now... hmmm maybe the problem is he just can't beat a stamblade.

Stamina Templar has no native stamina heals. So you are complaining about Rally and Vigor being 25% stronger because of Major Mending? News flash, they are the same strength on Dragon Knight with the added bonus of flappy wings nullifying ridiculous amounts of projectile dmg.

Stamina Templar mitigation is almost non-existent. They rely fully on out of class skills to stay alive. Rally, Vigor, Shuffle. With the limitations on the Rune I'd even argue to use Immovable Brute instead. With the latest nerf to our Purge I see almost no stamina templar defensive skills worth using except maybe Repentance (limited use in PVP as it requires bodies to work) and Ritual which was just nerfed so they could give us a weak snare and pitiful dmg on it.

Stam Templar dmg is in a good place right now, but that came at the cost of many nerfs to our defensive skills and only Major Mending to compensate (Which they gave to DK as well).

1. Stam DK
2. Stam Blade
3. Stam Templar
4. Stam Sorc

Sorc and Templar need work.

mr_wazzabi

Lyar09 wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

Jordaen wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

What class are you op?

He mains a Stam temp

Pffft I could start complaining about how "OP" stam templars healing is or state that dawnbreaker hits just as hard as incap now... hmmm maybe the problem is he just can't beat a stamblade.

But you'd be wrong in your assumption. I beat many nightblades and only really lose to few good ones. I made this thread to point out that incap is op. You can pick and choose what portion of it is op or not. I personally think it has too much utility for the cost. It shouldnt give major defile, increase damage by 20%, knockdown, and cost only 50 ult. That is over board for a single ability. Now you can keep acting childish spouting off "qq, l2p, overload this, overload that" but just know that even the best of players in this game are in agreeance with my statement.

Also, dawnbreaker doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as incap. I've tested with as high as weapon damage as you can get to and it doesn't come anywhere close. You're probably just looking at the tooltip and don't realize that it doesn't got that hard. Dawnbreaker also doesn't offer the you the utility incap does or the cost.

Remember:
1. Dawnbreaker has a dot that hits harder than the burst itself.

2. Dawnbeaker is an aoe.

3. Dawnbreaker does 20% extra dmg vs vamps.

These 3 points help to justify dawnbreaker's higher cost vs deathstroke.

Remember the guy in that screenshot has 0 impen and only 11% hardy cp.

Make sure you test your dawnbreaker vs someone of similar defense before you bash incap strike as op.

Incap strike is SINGLE TARGET. It can be dodged not just by dodge roll, but by clipping through the guy casting it (happens all the time).

Compared to the other good high cost ultimates:

200s:
Meteor
1. Aoe burst dmg
2. Aoe dot
3. Undodgeable, unreflectable, guaranteed hit on cast
4. Grants might of the guild empower.
5. Morph either has aoe snare or ult gain

Veil of blades:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% for you AND allies
3. Heal synergy

Nova:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% to you and allies
3. Supernova synergy which hits as hard as meteor burst

Corrosive armor:
1. Huge damage reduction
2. Dot to everybody that touches you
3. Ignore enemy armor while active

Now for in betweens:
Soul tether 150 cost
1. Aoe stun
2. Aoe dmg
3. Aoe dot
4. Heal
5. Aoe synergy

Sweep 75 cost and it needs a buff
1. Frontal aoe dmg but weak

Just because your low cost ult is crap doesn't mean a good one used by another class is op.

Compare inc strike to the other high cost ults I listed. Similar benefits, but the high cost ults are all AOE. They affect multiple targets and many have synergied, which justify the higher cost.

Inc strike has no synergy and is only single target, hence lower cost.

Yes it has
1. 20% 6s damage buff
2. 30% heal debuff
3. High single target dmg
4. Single target stun

But when you put it side to side to the benefits of the other ults it doesn't look op.

Lyar09

ManDraKE wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

. I personally think it has too much utility for the cost. It shouldnt give major defile, increase damage by 20%, knockdown, and cost only 50 ult. That is over board for a single ability. Now you can keep acting childish spouting off "qq, l2p, overload this, overload that" but just know that even the best of players in this game are in agreeance with my statement.

From a dueling point of view you are right, incap on DB is probably going to be the most effective ultimate in 1vs1, but the game is not balanced to 1vs1. It have a lot of utility? yes, but is single target, compared to other ultimates that have a bit less utility but can hit multiple targets its not that unbalanced. There is not point in having single target ultimate that is equally effective at single target than AoE ultimate.

Incap: High dmg to 1 target + CC to 1 target + Major defile
Other AoE ultimates: High damage to multiple targets + CC to multiple targets

Seems balanced imo. If incap is going to hit like dawnbreaker or any other ulti, there is no point in using it, you better run dawnbreaker and hit everyone in front of you.

I would agree with you fully if the ult cost wasnt so low. With certain sets and also the nightblade passives, a nightblade can literally use their "ult" as a main dps ability. Also, even in open world even if its a 1vX scenario, you're still going to use single target abilities as a night to do damage. It is really hard to tell what the game will be like once DB goes live, but as of right now I'm just pointing out what I've personally seen on pts and from what others are saying.

Lyar09

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

Jordaen wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

What class are you op?

He mains a Stam temp

Pffft I could start complaining about how "OP" stam templars healing is or state that dawnbreaker hits just as hard as incap now... hmmm maybe the problem is he just can't beat a stamblade.

But you'd be wrong in your assumption. I beat many nightblades and only really lose to few good ones. I made this thread to point out that incap is op. You can pick and choose what portion of it is op or not. I personally think it has too much utility for the cost. It shouldnt give major defile, increase damage by 20%, knockdown, and cost only 50 ult. That is over board for a single ability. Now you can keep acting childish spouting off "qq, l2p, overload this, overload that" but just know that even the best of players in this game are in agreeance with my statement.

Also, dawnbreaker doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as incap. I've tested with as high as weapon damage as you can get to and it doesn't come anywhere close. You're probably just looking at the tooltip and don't realize that it doesn't got that hard. Dawnbreaker also doesn't offer the you the utility incap does or the cost.

Remember:
1. Dawnbreaker has a dot that hits harder than the burst itself.

2. Dawnbeaker is an aoe.

3. Dawnbreaker does 20% extra dmg vs vamps.

These 3 points help to justify dawnbreaker's higher cost vs deathstroke.

Remember the guy in that screenshot has 0 impen and only 11% hardy cp.

Make sure you test your dawnbreaker vs someone of similar defense before you bash incap strike as op.

Incap strike is SINGLE TARGET. It can be dodged not just by dodge roll, but by clipping through the guy casting it (happens all the time).

Compared to the other good high cost ultimates:

200s:
Meteor
1. Aoe burst dmg
2. Aoe dot
3. Undodgeable, unreflectable, guaranteed hit on cast
4. Grants might of the guild empower.
5. Morph either has aoe snare or ult gain

Veil of blades:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% for you AND allies
3. Heal synergy

Nova:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% to you and allies
3. Supernova synergy which hits as hard as meteor burst

Corrosive armor:
1. Huge damage reduction
2. Dot to everybody that touches you
3. Ignore enemy armor while active

Now for in betweens:
Soul tether 150 cost
1. Aoe stun
2. Aoe dmg
3. Aoe dot
4. Heal
5. Aoe synergy

Sweep 75 cost and it needs a buff
1. Frontal aoe dmg but weak

Just because your low cost ult is crap doesn't mean a good one used by another class is op.

Compare inc strike to the other high cost ults I listed. Similar benefits, but the high cost ults are all AOE. They affect multiple targets and many have synergied, which justify the higher cost.

Inc strike has no synergy and is only single target, hence lower cost.

Yes it has
1. 20% 6s damage buff
2. 30% heal debuff
3. High single target dmg
4. Single target stun

But when you put it side to side to the benefits of the other ults it doesn't look op.

Dawnbreaker's dot is in many cases purged or mitigated through heals. If it did more up front damage and less of a dot then I would have something to say about it, but it doesnt. I am also not talking about the image provided by someone else. I personally have 2.3k crit resist, 19k spell resist, 17k physical resist, 73 points into ele defender and 48 points into hardy, plus an 8% damage mitigation from restoring focus and im still getting hit for 10k+ incap strikes. I feel sorry for people who cant mitigate the damage I can and I feel for them. We need to stop thinking about just ourselves and our min/max builds and realize that the pts is for ALL players, to include the not so good or relatively new players. I dont even want to know what they will be getting hit for. I think they should increase the cost or remove some of the utility. That's my fix.

bowmanz607

2.

Lyar09 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

Jordaen wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

What class are you op?

He mains a Stam temp

Pffft I could start complaining about how "OP" stam templars healing is or state that dawnbreaker hits just as hard as incap now... hmmm maybe the problem is he just can't beat a stamblade.

But you'd be wrong in your assumption. I beat many nightblades and only really lose to few good ones. I made this thread to point out that incap is op. You can pick and choose what portion of it is op or not. I personally think it has too much utility for the cost. It shouldnt give major defile, increase damage by 20%, knockdown, and cost only 50 ult. That is over board for a single ability. Now you can keep acting childish spouting off "qq, l2p, overload this, overload that" but just know that even the best of players in this game are in agreeance with my statement.

Also, dawnbreaker doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as incap. I've tested with as high as weapon damage as you can get to and it doesn't come anywhere close. You're probably just looking at the tooltip and don't realize that it doesn't got that hard. Dawnbreaker also doesn't offer the you the utility incap does or the cost.

Remember:
1. Dawnbreaker has a dot that hits harder than the burst itself.

2. Dawnbeaker is an aoe.

3. Dawnbreaker does 20% extra dmg vs vamps.

These 3 points help to justify dawnbreaker's higher cost vs deathstroke.

Remember the guy in that screenshot has 0 impen and only 11% hardy cp.

Make sure you test your dawnbreaker vs someone of similar defense before you bash incap strike as op.

Incap strike is SINGLE TARGET. It can be dodged not just by dodge roll, but by clipping through the guy casting it (happens all the time).

Compared to the other good high cost ultimates:

200s:
Meteor
1. Aoe burst dmg
2. Aoe dot
3. Undodgeable, unreflectable, guaranteed hit on cast
4. Grants might of the guild empower.
5. Morph either has aoe snare or ult gain

Veil of blades:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% for you AND allies
3. Heal synergy

Nova:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% to you and allies
3. Supernova synergy which hits as hard as meteor burst

Corrosive armor:
1. Huge damage reduction
2. Dot to everybody that touches you
3. Ignore enemy armor while active

Now for in betweens:
Soul tether 150 cost
1. Aoe stun
2. Aoe dmg
3. Aoe dot
4. Heal
5. Aoe synergy

Sweep 75 cost and it needs a buff
1. Frontal aoe dmg but weak

Just because your low cost ult is crap doesn't mean a good one used by another class is op.

Compare inc strike to the other high cost ults I listed. Similar benefits, but the high cost ults are all AOE. They affect multiple targets and many have synergied, which justify the higher cost.

Inc strike has no synergy and is only single target, hence lower cost.

Yes it has
1. 20% 6s damage buff
2. 30% heal debuff
3. High single target dmg
4. Single target stun

But when you put it side to side to the benefits of the other ults it doesn't look op.

Dawnbreaker's dot is in many cases purged or mitigated through heals. If it did more up front damage and less of a dot then I would have something to say about it, but it doesnt. I am also not talking about the image provided by someone else. I personally have 2.3k crit resist, 19k spell resist, 17k physical resist, 73 points into ele defender and 48 points into hardy, plus an 8% damage mitigation from restoring focus and im still getting hit for 10k+ incap strikes. I feel sorry for people who cant mitigate the damage I can and I feel for them. We need to stop thinking about just ourselves and our min/max builds and realize that the pts is for ALL players, to include the not so good or relatively new players. I dont even want to know what they will be getting hit for. I think they should increase the cost or remove some of the utility. That's my fix.

I would say your stats are pretty standard, especially for 1v1 and 1vx situations. 10-12k ult with those stats should be somewhat normal. With those stats you can get hit with meteors, leap, overload, and dawn breaker at those numbers. Soul harvest hits for those numbers. An ult should hit hard. It should hurt. Especially if you have no mitigation.

Your right it is for all players. But you don't balance a game around new players. The new players are still learning the game. The new players should learn the game. The game should not take new players who don't know what they are doing into account when balancing. That is crazy. The new players will learn. You learn by dieing. Just like people have learned how to counter bomb builds.

Lyar09

bowmanz607 wrote: »

2.

Lyar09 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

Jordaen wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

What class are you op?

He mains a Stam temp

Pffft I could start complaining about how "OP" stam templars healing is or state that dawnbreaker hits just as hard as incap now... hmmm maybe the problem is he just can't beat a stamblade.

But you'd be wrong in your assumption. I beat many nightblades and only really lose to few good ones. I made this thread to point out that incap is op. You can pick and choose what portion of it is op or not. I personally think it has too much utility for the cost. It shouldnt give major defile, increase damage by 20%, knockdown, and cost only 50 ult. That is over board for a single ability. Now you can keep acting childish spouting off "qq, l2p, overload this, overload that" but just know that even the best of players in this game are in agreeance with my statement.

Also, dawnbreaker doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as incap. I've tested with as high as weapon damage as you can get to and it doesn't come anywhere close. You're probably just looking at the tooltip and don't realize that it doesn't got that hard. Dawnbreaker also doesn't offer the you the utility incap does or the cost.

Remember:
1. Dawnbreaker has a dot that hits harder than the burst itself.

2. Dawnbeaker is an aoe.

3. Dawnbreaker does 20% extra dmg vs vamps.

These 3 points help to justify dawnbreaker's higher cost vs deathstroke.

Remember the guy in that screenshot has 0 impen and only 11% hardy cp.

Make sure you test your dawnbreaker vs someone of similar defense before you bash incap strike as op.

Incap strike is SINGLE TARGET. It can be dodged not just by dodge roll, but by clipping through the guy casting it (happens all the time).

Compared to the other good high cost ultimates:

200s:
Meteor
1. Aoe burst dmg
2. Aoe dot
3. Undodgeable, unreflectable, guaranteed hit on cast
4. Grants might of the guild empower.
5. Morph either has aoe snare or ult gain

Veil of blades:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% for you AND allies
3. Heal synergy

Nova:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% to you and allies
3. Supernova synergy which hits as hard as meteor burst

Corrosive armor:
1. Huge damage reduction
2. Dot to everybody that touches you
3. Ignore enemy armor while active

Now for in betweens:
Soul tether 150 cost
1. Aoe stun
2. Aoe dmg
3. Aoe dot
4. Heal
5. Aoe synergy

Sweep 75 cost and it needs a buff
1. Frontal aoe dmg but weak

Just because your low cost ult is crap doesn't mean a good one used by another class is op.

Compare inc strike to the other high cost ults I listed. Similar benefits, but the high cost ults are all AOE. They affect multiple targets and many have synergied, which justify the higher cost.

Inc strike has no synergy and is only single target, hence lower cost.

Yes it has
1. 20% 6s damage buff
2. 30% heal debuff
3. High single target dmg
4. Single target stun

But when you put it side to side to the benefits of the other ults it doesn't look op.

Dawnbreaker's dot is in many cases purged or mitigated through heals. If it did more up front damage and less of a dot then I would have something to say about it, but it doesnt. I am also not talking about the image provided by someone else. I personally have 2.3k crit resist, 19k spell resist, 17k physical resist, 73 points into ele defender and 48 points into hardy, plus an 8% damage mitigation from restoring focus and im still getting hit for 10k+ incap strikes. I feel sorry for people who cant mitigate the damage I can and I feel for them. We need to stop thinking about just ourselves and our min/max builds and realize that the pts is for ALL players, to include the not so good or relatively new players. I dont even want to know what they will be getting hit for. I think they should increase the cost or remove some of the utility. That's my fix.

I would say your stats are pretty standard, especially for 1v1 and 1vx situations. 10-12k ult with those stats should be somewhat normal. With those stats you can get hit with meteors, leap, overload, and dawn breaker at those numbers. Soul harvest hits for those numbers. An ult should hit hard. It should hurt. Especially if you have no mitigation.

Your right it is for all players. But you don't balance a game around new players. The new players are still learning the game. The new players should learn the game. The game should not take new players who don't know what they are doing into account when balancing. That is crazy. The new players will learn. You learn by dieing. Just like people have learned how to counter bomb builds.

You're right, an ult should hit hard. But not one that cost 50. Not on the same level as ones that cost 2,3,4 times as much. I'm honestly not even worried about the damage as much as the other bonuses it provides. The heal debuff, stun, and 20% more damage for 6 seconds is way over the top for such a low cost ability.

mr_wazzabi

Lyar09 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

2.

Lyar09 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

Jordaen wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

What class are you op?

He mains a Stam temp

Pffft I could start complaining about how "OP" stam templars healing is or state that dawnbreaker hits just as hard as incap now... hmmm maybe the problem is he just can't beat a stamblade.

But you'd be wrong in your assumption. I beat many nightblades and only really lose to few good ones. I made this thread to point out that incap is op. You can pick and choose what portion of it is op or not. I personally think it has too much utility for the cost. It shouldnt give major defile, increase damage by 20%, knockdown, and cost only 50 ult. That is over board for a single ability. Now you can keep acting childish spouting off "qq, l2p, overload this, overload that" but just know that even the best of players in this game are in agreeance with my statement.

Also, dawnbreaker doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as incap. I've tested with as high as weapon damage as you can get to and it doesn't come anywhere close. You're probably just looking at the tooltip and don't realize that it doesn't got that hard. Dawnbreaker also doesn't offer the you the utility incap does or the cost.

Remember:
1. Dawnbreaker has a dot that hits harder than the burst itself.

2. Dawnbeaker is an aoe.

3. Dawnbreaker does 20% extra dmg vs vamps.

These 3 points help to justify dawnbreaker's higher cost vs deathstroke.

Remember the guy in that screenshot has 0 impen and only 11% hardy cp.

Make sure you test your dawnbreaker vs someone of similar defense before you bash incap strike as op.

Incap strike is SINGLE TARGET. It can be dodged not just by dodge roll, but by clipping through the guy casting it (happens all the time).

Compared to the other good high cost ultimates:

200s:
Meteor
1. Aoe burst dmg
2. Aoe dot
3. Undodgeable, unreflectable, guaranteed hit on cast
4. Grants might of the guild empower.
5. Morph either has aoe snare or ult gain

Veil of blades:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% for you AND allies
3. Heal synergy

Nova:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% to you and allies
3. Supernova synergy which hits as hard as meteor burst

Corrosive armor:
1. Huge damage reduction
2. Dot to everybody that touches you
3. Ignore enemy armor while active

Now for in betweens:
Soul tether 150 cost
1. Aoe stun
2. Aoe dmg
3. Aoe dot
4. Heal
5. Aoe synergy

Sweep 75 cost and it needs a buff
1. Frontal aoe dmg but weak

Just because your low cost ult is crap doesn't mean a good one used by another class is op.

Compare inc strike to the other high cost ults I listed. Similar benefits, but the high cost ults are all AOE. They affect multiple targets and many have synergied, which justify the higher cost.

Inc strike has no synergy and is only single target, hence lower cost.

Yes it has
1. 20% 6s damage buff
2. 30% heal debuff
3. High single target dmg
4. Single target stun

But when you put it side to side to the benefits of the other ults it doesn't look op.

Dawnbreaker's dot is in many cases purged or mitigated through heals. If it did more up front damage and less of a dot then I would have something to say about it, but it doesnt. I am also not talking about the image provided by someone else. I personally have 2.3k crit resist, 19k spell resist, 17k physical resist, 73 points into ele defender and 48 points into hardy, plus an 8% damage mitigation from restoring focus and im still getting hit for 10k+ incap strikes. I feel sorry for people who cant mitigate the damage I can and I feel for them. We need to stop thinking about just ourselves and our min/max builds and realize that the pts is for ALL players, to include the not so good or relatively new players. I dont even want to know what they will be getting hit for. I think they should increase the cost or remove some of the utility. That's my fix.

I would say your stats are pretty standard, especially for 1v1 and 1vx situations. 10-12k ult with those stats should be somewhat normal. With those stats you can get hit with meteors, leap, overload, and dawn breaker at those numbers. Soul harvest hits for those numbers. An ult should hit hard. It should hurt. Especially if you have no mitigation.

Your right it is for all players. But you don't balance a game around new players. The new players are still learning the game. The new players should learn the game. The game should not take new players who don't know what they are doing into account when balancing. That is crazy. The new players will learn. You learn by dieing. Just like people have learned how to counter bomb builds.

You're right, an ult should hit hard. But not one that cost 50. Not on the same level as ones that cost 2,3,4 times as much. I'm honestly not even worried about the damage as much as the other bonuses it provides. The heal debuff, stun, and 20% more damage for 6 seconds is way over the top for such a low cost ability.

As many have said before it costs 50 because it's single target. Meteor costs 200 because it can hit 6 targets for the same damage as inc strike and has a ground dot that hits harder if they stay in it. By your logic they should increase its cost to 300-400 ult.

Hell, wrecking blow hits harder than inc strike and it's not an ultimate.

bowmanz607

Lyar09 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

2.

Lyar09 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

Jordaen wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

What class are you op?

He mains a Stam temp

Pffft I could start complaining about how "OP" stam templars healing is or state that dawnbreaker hits just as hard as incap now... hmmm maybe the problem is he just can't beat a stamblade.

But you'd be wrong in your assumption. I beat many nightblades and only really lose to few good ones. I made this thread to point out that incap is op. You can pick and choose what portion of it is op or not. I personally think it has too much utility for the cost. It shouldnt give major defile, increase damage by 20%, knockdown, and cost only 50 ult. That is over board for a single ability. Now you can keep acting childish spouting off "qq, l2p, overload this, overload that" but just know that even the best of players in this game are in agreeance with my statement.

Also, dawnbreaker doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as incap. I've tested with as high as weapon damage as you can get to and it doesn't come anywhere close. You're probably just looking at the tooltip and don't realize that it doesn't got that hard. Dawnbreaker also doesn't offer the you the utility incap does or the cost.

Remember:
1. Dawnbreaker has a dot that hits harder than the burst itself.

2. Dawnbeaker is an aoe.

3. Dawnbreaker does 20% extra dmg vs vamps.

These 3 points help to justify dawnbreaker's higher cost vs deathstroke.

Remember the guy in that screenshot has 0 impen and only 11% hardy cp.

Make sure you test your dawnbreaker vs someone of similar defense before you bash incap strike as op.

Incap strike is SINGLE TARGET. It can be dodged not just by dodge roll, but by clipping through the guy casting it (happens all the time).

Compared to the other good high cost ultimates:

200s:
Meteor
1. Aoe burst dmg
2. Aoe dot
3. Undodgeable, unreflectable, guaranteed hit on cast
4. Grants might of the guild empower.
5. Morph either has aoe snare or ult gain

Veil of blades:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% for you AND allies
3. Heal synergy

Nova:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% to you and allies
3. Supernova synergy which hits as hard as meteor burst

Corrosive armor:
1. Huge damage reduction
2. Dot to everybody that touches you
3. Ignore enemy armor while active

Now for in betweens:
Soul tether 150 cost
1. Aoe stun
2. Aoe dmg
3. Aoe dot
4. Heal
5. Aoe synergy

Sweep 75 cost and it needs a buff
1. Frontal aoe dmg but weak

Just because your low cost ult is crap doesn't mean a good one used by another class is op.

Compare inc strike to the other high cost ults I listed. Similar benefits, but the high cost ults are all AOE. They affect multiple targets and many have synergied, which justify the higher cost.

Inc strike has no synergy and is only single target, hence lower cost.

Yes it has
1. 20% 6s damage buff
2. 30% heal debuff
3. High single target dmg
4. Single target stun

But when you put it side to side to the benefits of the other ults it doesn't look op.

Dawnbreaker's dot is in many cases purged or mitigated through heals. If it did more up front damage and less of a dot then I would have something to say about it, but it doesnt. I am also not talking about the image provided by someone else. I personally have 2.3k crit resist, 19k spell resist, 17k physical resist, 73 points into ele defender and 48 points into hardy, plus an 8% damage mitigation from restoring focus and im still getting hit for 10k+ incap strikes. I feel sorry for people who cant mitigate the damage I can and I feel for them. We need to stop thinking about just ourselves and our min/max builds and realize that the pts is for ALL players, to include the not so good or relatively new players. I dont even want to know what they will be getting hit for. I think they should increase the cost or remove some of the utility. That's my fix.

I would say your stats are pretty standard, especially for 1v1 and 1vx situations. 10-12k ult with those stats should be somewhat normal. With those stats you can get hit with meteors, leap, overload, and dawn breaker at those numbers. Soul harvest hits for those numbers. An ult should hit hard. It should hurt. Especially if you have no mitigation.

Your right it is for all players. But you don't balance a game around new players. The new players are still learning the game. The new players should learn the game. The game should not take new players who don't know what they are doing into account when balancing. That is crazy. The new players will learn. You learn by dieing. Just like people have learned how to counter bomb builds.

You're right, an ult should hit hard. But not one that cost 50. Not on the same level as ones that cost 2,3,4 times as much. I'm honestly not even worried about the damage as much as the other bonuses it provides. The heal debuff, stun, and 20% more damage for 6 seconds is way over the top for such a low cost ability.

Practically speaking the run is a waste and irrelevant. 95% of players will cc you first and than ult you. Don't want to risk it being dodged or blocked etc.

As I pointed out in a long post a few pages back and a few others have try to state, the cost and high damage is justified in the fact that it effects a single target. It is single target and has 3 effects. Others effect multiple targets and have at least 3 effects if not more including synergies. I don't want to rehash the intricacies of this argument as it has been stated multiple times and abalyzed from this perspective. It is my belief along with many others that this ult is on pat with orlther ults. I have yet to be convinced otherwise.

Lyar09

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

2.

Lyar09 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

Jordaen wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

What class are you op?

He mains a Stam temp

Pffft I could start complaining about how "OP" stam templars healing is or state that dawnbreaker hits just as hard as incap now... hmmm maybe the problem is he just can't beat a stamblade.

But you'd be wrong in your assumption. I beat many nightblades and only really lose to few good ones. I made this thread to point out that incap is op. You can pick and choose what portion of it is op or not. I personally think it has too much utility for the cost. It shouldnt give major defile, increase damage by 20%, knockdown, and cost only 50 ult. That is over board for a single ability. Now you can keep acting childish spouting off "qq, l2p, overload this, overload that" but just know that even the best of players in this game are in agreeance with my statement.

Also, dawnbreaker doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as incap. I've tested with as high as weapon damage as you can get to and it doesn't come anywhere close. You're probably just looking at the tooltip and don't realize that it doesn't got that hard. Dawnbreaker also doesn't offer the you the utility incap does or the cost.

Remember:
1. Dawnbreaker has a dot that hits harder than the burst itself.

2. Dawnbeaker is an aoe.

3. Dawnbreaker does 20% extra dmg vs vamps.

These 3 points help to justify dawnbreaker's higher cost vs deathstroke.

Remember the guy in that screenshot has 0 impen and only 11% hardy cp.

Make sure you test your dawnbreaker vs someone of similar defense before you bash incap strike as op.

Incap strike is SINGLE TARGET. It can be dodged not just by dodge roll, but by clipping through the guy casting it (happens all the time).

Compared to the other good high cost ultimates:

200s:
Meteor
1. Aoe burst dmg
2. Aoe dot
3. Undodgeable, unreflectable, guaranteed hit on cast
4. Grants might of the guild empower.
5. Morph either has aoe snare or ult gain

Veil of blades:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% for you AND allies
3. Heal synergy

Nova:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% to you and allies
3. Supernova synergy which hits as hard as meteor burst

Corrosive armor:
1. Huge damage reduction
2. Dot to everybody that touches you
3. Ignore enemy armor while active

Now for in betweens:
Soul tether 150 cost
1. Aoe stun
2. Aoe dmg
3. Aoe dot
4. Heal
5. Aoe synergy

Sweep 75 cost and it needs a buff
1. Frontal aoe dmg but weak

Just because your low cost ult is crap doesn't mean a good one used by another class is op.

Compare inc strike to the other high cost ults I listed. Similar benefits, but the high cost ults are all AOE. They affect multiple targets and many have synergied, which justify the higher cost.

Inc strike has no synergy and is only single target, hence lower cost.

Yes it has
1. 20% 6s damage buff
2. 30% heal debuff
3. High single target dmg
4. Single target stun

But when you put it side to side to the benefits of the other ults it doesn't look op.

Dawnbreaker's dot is in many cases purged or mitigated through heals. If it did more up front damage and less of a dot then I would have something to say about it, but it doesnt. I am also not talking about the image provided by someone else. I personally have 2.3k crit resist, 19k spell resist, 17k physical resist, 73 points into ele defender and 48 points into hardy, plus an 8% damage mitigation from restoring focus and im still getting hit for 10k+ incap strikes. I feel sorry for people who cant mitigate the damage I can and I feel for them. We need to stop thinking about just ourselves and our min/max builds and realize that the pts is for ALL players, to include the not so good or relatively new players. I dont even want to know what they will be getting hit for. I think they should increase the cost or remove some of the utility. That's my fix.

I would say your stats are pretty standard, especially for 1v1 and 1vx situations. 10-12k ult with those stats should be somewhat normal. With those stats you can get hit with meteors, leap, overload, and dawn breaker at those numbers. Soul harvest hits for those numbers. An ult should hit hard. It should hurt. Especially if you have no mitigation.

Your right it is for all players. But you don't balance a game around new players. The new players are still learning the game. The new players should learn the game. The game should not take new players who don't know what they are doing into account when balancing. That is crazy. The new players will learn. You learn by dieing. Just like people have learned how to counter bomb builds.

You're right, an ult should hit hard. But not one that cost 50. Not on the same level as ones that cost 2,3,4 times as much. I'm honestly not even worried about the damage as much as the other bonuses it provides. The heal debuff, stun, and 20% more damage for 6 seconds is way over the top for such a low cost ability.

As many have said before it costs 50 because it's single target. Meteor costs 200 because it can hit 6 targets for the same damage as inc strike and has a ground dot that hits harder if they stay in it. By your logic they should increase its cost to 300-400 ult.

Hell, wrecking blow hits harder than inc strike and it's not an ultimate.

Wrecking Blow doesn't hit as hard as Incap lol Also, i think a reasonable ult cost would be around 100-125

mr_wazzabi

Lyar09 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

2.

Lyar09 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

Jordaen wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

What class are you op?

He mains a Stam temp

Pffft I could start complaining about how "OP" stam templars healing is or state that dawnbreaker hits just as hard as incap now... hmmm maybe the problem is he just can't beat a stamblade.

But you'd be wrong in your assumption. I beat many nightblades and only really lose to few good ones. I made this thread to point out that incap is op. You can pick and choose what portion of it is op or not. I personally think it has too much utility for the cost. It shouldnt give major defile, increase damage by 20%, knockdown, and cost only 50 ult. That is over board for a single ability. Now you can keep acting childish spouting off "qq, l2p, overload this, overload that" but just know that even the best of players in this game are in agreeance with my statement.

Also, dawnbreaker doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as incap. I've tested with as high as weapon damage as you can get to and it doesn't come anywhere close. You're probably just looking at the tooltip and don't realize that it doesn't got that hard. Dawnbreaker also doesn't offer the you the utility incap does or the cost.

Remember:
1. Dawnbreaker has a dot that hits harder than the burst itself.

2. Dawnbeaker is an aoe.

3. Dawnbreaker does 20% extra dmg vs vamps.

These 3 points help to justify dawnbreaker's higher cost vs deathstroke.

Remember the guy in that screenshot has 0 impen and only 11% hardy cp.

Make sure you test your dawnbreaker vs someone of similar defense before you bash incap strike as op.

Incap strike is SINGLE TARGET. It can be dodged not just by dodge roll, but by clipping through the guy casting it (happens all the time).

Compared to the other good high cost ultimates:

200s:
Meteor
1. Aoe burst dmg
2. Aoe dot
3. Undodgeable, unreflectable, guaranteed hit on cast
4. Grants might of the guild empower.
5. Morph either has aoe snare or ult gain

Veil of blades:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% for you AND allies
3. Heal synergy

Nova:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% to you and allies
3. Supernova synergy which hits as hard as meteor burst

Corrosive armor:
1. Huge damage reduction
2. Dot to everybody that touches you
3. Ignore enemy armor while active

Now for in betweens:
Soul tether 150 cost
1. Aoe stun
2. Aoe dmg
3. Aoe dot
4. Heal
5. Aoe synergy

Sweep 75 cost and it needs a buff
1. Frontal aoe dmg but weak

Just because your low cost ult is crap doesn't mean a good one used by another class is op.

Compare inc strike to the other high cost ults I listed. Similar benefits, but the high cost ults are all AOE. They affect multiple targets and many have synergied, which justify the higher cost.

Inc strike has no synergy and is only single target, hence lower cost.

Yes it has
1. 20% 6s damage buff
2. 30% heal debuff
3. High single target dmg
4. Single target stun

But when you put it side to side to the benefits of the other ults it doesn't look op.

Dawnbreaker's dot is in many cases purged or mitigated through heals. If it did more up front damage and less of a dot then I would have something to say about it, but it doesnt. I am also not talking about the image provided by someone else. I personally have 2.3k crit resist, 19k spell resist, 17k physical resist, 73 points into ele defender and 48 points into hardy, plus an 8% damage mitigation from restoring focus and im still getting hit for 10k+ incap strikes. I feel sorry for people who cant mitigate the damage I can and I feel for them. We need to stop thinking about just ourselves and our min/max builds and realize that the pts is for ALL players, to include the not so good or relatively new players. I dont even want to know what they will be getting hit for. I think they should increase the cost or remove some of the utility. That's my fix.

I would say your stats are pretty standard, especially for 1v1 and 1vx situations. 10-12k ult with those stats should be somewhat normal. With those stats you can get hit with meteors, leap, overload, and dawn breaker at those numbers. Soul harvest hits for those numbers. An ult should hit hard. It should hurt. Especially if you have no mitigation.

Your right it is for all players. But you don't balance a game around new players. The new players are still learning the game. The new players should learn the game. The game should not take new players who don't know what they are doing into account when balancing. That is crazy. The new players will learn. You learn by dieing. Just like people have learned how to counter bomb builds.

You're right, an ult should hit hard. But not one that cost 50. Not on the same level as ones that cost 2,3,4 times as much. I'm honestly not even worried about the damage as much as the other bonuses it provides. The heal debuff, stun, and 20% more damage for 6 seconds is way over the top for such a low cost ability.

Remember that same heal debuff i used in the form of normal abilities in other classes.

Dark flare

Heroic slash

Not ultimates.

The only thing unique about inc strike is the 20% damage buff, which only lasts 6 seconds.

mr_wazzabi

Lyar09 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

2.

Lyar09 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

Jordaen wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

What class are you op?

He mains a Stam temp

Pffft I could start complaining about how "OP" stam templars healing is or state that dawnbreaker hits just as hard as incap now... hmmm maybe the problem is he just can't beat a stamblade.

But you'd be wrong in your assumption. I beat many nightblades and only really lose to few good ones. I made this thread to point out that incap is op. You can pick and choose what portion of it is op or not. I personally think it has too much utility for the cost. It shouldnt give major defile, increase damage by 20%, knockdown, and cost only 50 ult. That is over board for a single ability. Now you can keep acting childish spouting off "qq, l2p, overload this, overload that" but just know that even the best of players in this game are in agreeance with my statement.

Also, dawnbreaker doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as incap. I've tested with as high as weapon damage as you can get to and it doesn't come anywhere close. You're probably just looking at the tooltip and don't realize that it doesn't got that hard. Dawnbreaker also doesn't offer the you the utility incap does or the cost.

Remember:
1. Dawnbreaker has a dot that hits harder than the burst itself.

2. Dawnbeaker is an aoe.

3. Dawnbreaker does 20% extra dmg vs vamps.

These 3 points help to justify dawnbreaker's higher cost vs deathstroke.

Remember the guy in that screenshot has 0 impen and only 11% hardy cp.

Make sure you test your dawnbreaker vs someone of similar defense before you bash incap strike as op.

Incap strike is SINGLE TARGET. It can be dodged not just by dodge roll, but by clipping through the guy casting it (happens all the time).

Compared to the other good high cost ultimates:

200s:
Meteor
1. Aoe burst dmg
2. Aoe dot
3. Undodgeable, unreflectable, guaranteed hit on cast
4. Grants might of the guild empower.
5. Morph either has aoe snare or ult gain

Veil of blades:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% for you AND allies
3. Heal synergy

Nova:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% to you and allies
3. Supernova synergy which hits as hard as meteor burst

Corrosive armor:
1. Huge damage reduction
2. Dot to everybody that touches you
3. Ignore enemy armor while active

Now for in betweens:
Soul tether 150 cost
1. Aoe stun
2. Aoe dmg
3. Aoe dot
4. Heal
5. Aoe synergy

Sweep 75 cost and it needs a buff
1. Frontal aoe dmg but weak

Just because your low cost ult is crap doesn't mean a good one used by another class is op.

Compare inc strike to the other high cost ults I listed. Similar benefits, but the high cost ults are all AOE. They affect multiple targets and many have synergied, which justify the higher cost.

Inc strike has no synergy and is only single target, hence lower cost.

Yes it has
1. 20% 6s damage buff
2. 30% heal debuff
3. High single target dmg
4. Single target stun

But when you put it side to side to the benefits of the other ults it doesn't look op.

Dawnbreaker's dot is in many cases purged or mitigated through heals. If it did more up front damage and less of a dot then I would have something to say about it, but it doesnt. I am also not talking about the image provided by someone else. I personally have 2.3k crit resist, 19k spell resist, 17k physical resist, 73 points into ele defender and 48 points into hardy, plus an 8% damage mitigation from restoring focus and im still getting hit for 10k+ incap strikes. I feel sorry for people who cant mitigate the damage I can and I feel for them. We need to stop thinking about just ourselves and our min/max builds and realize that the pts is for ALL players, to include the not so good or relatively new players. I dont even want to know what they will be getting hit for. I think they should increase the cost or remove some of the utility. That's my fix.

I would say your stats are pretty standard, especially for 1v1 and 1vx situations. 10-12k ult with those stats should be somewhat normal. With those stats you can get hit with meteors, leap, overload, and dawn breaker at those numbers. Soul harvest hits for those numbers. An ult should hit hard. It should hurt. Especially if you have no mitigation.

Your right it is for all players. But you don't balance a game around new players. The new players are still learning the game. The new players should learn the game. The game should not take new players who don't know what they are doing into account when balancing. That is crazy. The new players will learn. You learn by dieing. Just like people have learned how to counter bomb builds.

You're right, an ult should hit hard. But not one that cost 50. Not on the same level as ones that cost 2,3,4 times as much. I'm honestly not even worried about the damage as much as the other bonuses it provides. The heal debuff, stun, and 20% more damage for 6 seconds is way over the top for such a low cost ability.

As many have said before it costs 50 because it's single target. Meteor costs 200 because it can hit 6 targets for the same damage as inc strike and has a ground dot that hits harder if they stay in it. By your logic they should increase its cost to 300-400 ult.

Hell, wrecking blow hits harder than inc strike and it's not an ultimate.

Wrecking Blow doesn't hit as hard as Incap lol Also, i think a reasonable ult cost would be around 100-125

Then inc strike should hit 2-3 people if you think they should double of 1.5x the cost.

Jordaen

@EsoRecon are u really going to try and say a ult that costs 50, does disease damage( heal debuff), knocks them down, does 20% extra damage for 6 seconds, and gives another heal debuff isn't op?

mr_wazzabi

Jordaen wrote: »

@EsoRecon are u really going to try and say a ult that costs 50, does disease damage( heal debuff), knocks them down, does 20% extra damage for 6 seconds, and gives another heal debuff isn't op?

It's not.

Look at meteor. It does just as much but can hit 6 people. Should it cost 300 then?

Jordaen

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

2.

Lyar09 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

EsoRecon wrote: »

Jordaen wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

Seriously this ability is extremely overpowered. It is making stamina nightblade over the top again. Does way too much damage.Oh and worst of all it is the lowest costing ulti in the game. I'm fine with the knock down change but come on with this damage change. What were you thinking zos?

Y'all have fun with this argument. Instead of it being about a single ability it has turned into a class balance war. I'm sure nothing will get changed and people will complain about it (to include those defending it). Enjoy your arguing folks I appreciate some of the feedback.

What class are you op?

He mains a Stam temp

Pffft I could start complaining about how "OP" stam templars healing is or state that dawnbreaker hits just as hard as incap now... hmmm maybe the problem is he just can't beat a stamblade.

But you'd be wrong in your assumption. I beat many nightblades and only really lose to few good ones. I made this thread to point out that incap is op. You can pick and choose what portion of it is op or not. I personally think it has too much utility for the cost. It shouldnt give major defile, increase damage by 20%, knockdown, and cost only 50 ult. That is over board for a single ability. Now you can keep acting childish spouting off "qq, l2p, overload this, overload that" but just know that even the best of players in this game are in agreeance with my statement.

Also, dawnbreaker doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as incap. I've tested with as high as weapon damage as you can get to and it doesn't come anywhere close. You're probably just looking at the tooltip and don't realize that it doesn't got that hard. Dawnbreaker also doesn't offer the you the utility incap does or the cost.

Remember:
1. Dawnbreaker has a dot that hits harder than the burst itself.

2. Dawnbeaker is an aoe.

3. Dawnbreaker does 20% extra dmg vs vamps.

These 3 points help to justify dawnbreaker's higher cost vs deathstroke.

Remember the guy in that screenshot has 0 impen and only 11% hardy cp.

Make sure you test your dawnbreaker vs someone of similar defense before you bash incap strike as op.

Incap strike is SINGLE TARGET. It can be dodged not just by dodge roll, but by clipping through the guy casting it (happens all the time).

Compared to the other good high cost ultimates:

200s:
Meteor
1. Aoe burst dmg
2. Aoe dot
3. Undodgeable, unreflectable, guaranteed hit on cast
4. Grants might of the guild empower.
5. Morph either has aoe snare or ult gain

Veil of blades:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% for you AND allies
3. Heal synergy

Nova:
1. Aoe dot
2. Reduce dmg 30% to you and allies
3. Supernova synergy which hits as hard as meteor burst

Corrosive armor:
1. Huge damage reduction
2. Dot to everybody that touches you
3. Ignore enemy armor while active

Now for in betweens:
Soul tether 150 cost
1. Aoe stun
2. Aoe dmg
3. Aoe dot
4. Heal
5. Aoe synergy

Sweep 75 cost and it needs a buff
1. Frontal aoe dmg but weak

Just because your low cost ult is crap doesn't mean a good one used by another class is op.

Compare inc strike to the other high cost ults I listed. Similar benefits, but the high cost ults are all AOE. They affect multiple targets and many have synergied, which justify the higher cost.

Inc strike has no synergy and is only single target, hence lower cost.

Yes it has
1. 20% 6s damage buff
2. 30% heal debuff
3. High single target dmg
4. Single target stun

But when you put it side to side to the benefits of the other ults it doesn't look op.

Dawnbreaker's dot is in many cases purged or mitigated through heals. If it did more up front damage and less of a dot then I would have something to say about it, but it doesnt. I am also not talking about the image provided by someone else. I personally have 2.3k crit resist, 19k spell resist, 17k physical resist, 73 points into ele defender and 48 points into hardy, plus an 8% damage mitigation from restoring focus and im still getting hit for 10k+ incap strikes. I feel sorry for people who cant mitigate the damage I can and I feel for them. We need to stop thinking about just ourselves and our min/max builds and realize that the pts is for ALL players, to include the not so good or relatively new players. I dont even want to know what they will be getting hit for. I think they should increase the cost or remove some of the utility. That's my fix.

I would say your stats are pretty standard, especially for 1v1 and 1vx situations. 10-12k ult with those stats should be somewhat normal. With those stats you can get hit with meteors, leap, overload, and dawn breaker at those numbers. Soul harvest hits for those numbers. An ult should hit hard. It should hurt. Especially if you have no mitigation.

Your right it is for all players. But you don't balance a game around new players. The new players are still learning the game. The new players should learn the game. The game should not take new players who don't know what they are doing into account when balancing. That is crazy. The new players will learn. You learn by dieing. Just like people have learned how to counter bomb builds.

You're right, an ult should hit hard. But not one that cost 50. Not on the same level as ones that cost 2,3,4 times as much. I'm honestly not even worried about the damage as much as the other bonuses it provides. The heal debuff, stun, and 20% more damage for 6 seconds is way over the top for such a low cost ability.

Remember that same heal debuff i used in the form of normal abilities in other classes.

Dark flare

Heroic slash

Not ultimates.

The only thing unique about inc strike is the 20% damage buff, which only lasts 6 seconds.

20% damage buff for 6 seconds. U can get an incap up in less than 6 seconds. and it gives 2 heal debuffs aswell as knocking them down

Emma_Overload

I've got a lot of complaints about Stamblades, but the cost of this ultimate is not one of them. For a single target, 50 ultimate is not bad compared to Overload light attacks, which cost around 22 per target, IIRC.

HOWEVER....

There's a reason so many people are griping about Stamblades and calling for nerfs, and it's not just because we need to "git gud" or L2P. The fact is that when you look at the sum total of abilities and buffs possessed by Stamblades, it's obvious that they are overpowered. Incap Strike is just one of many super strong attacks that, when added together, make Stamblades impossible to beat with many otherwise good builds and playstyles.

I get killed all the time by Templars, DKs, Magicka Nightblades and other Sorcs, and when it happens, it usually obvious that the other player was more skilled (or more lucky) than I am. Stamblades are a whole different story. When I run into one of these really tough Stamblade builds, one of three things happens:

1) The Stamblade kills me so fast I don't even have time to fight back. See my infamous screenshot in the OP

2) I go on the defensive, but even my usually beefy Wards are not enough. I just keep casting Hardened and Healing Ward while I try to Streak or run away, but it never works, and I get gap-closed and die in a few seconds.

3) I go on the offensive, but my dog slow attacks like Curse and Frags take so long to proc, that the Stamblade has already killed me before the Curse detonates. When looking at the logs, the Stamblades' attacks always do way more damage.

Some of the reasons these things happen are because PvP is so heavily biased towards Stamina builds over Magicka builds. Don't even try to argue otherwise! When was the last time you heard somebody tell Stamina builds that Medium armor sucked, and that they really should switch to Heavy? Yet, Magicka builds have to hear that kind of crap all the time. But that doesn't explain why Stamblades are so much harder to deal with than Stamplars and WB spamming Dragonknights.

ZOS has given Nightblades a ton of stamina morphs and buffs that make the other classes look like unloved stepchildren. And the worst thing is, the more people complain, the more ZOS buffs Stamblades! That's the real reason threads like this exist, in my opinion. Incap Strike just adds insult to injury.

Anti_Virus

Lol nerfing Death Stroke and morphs will effect MagNBs and Stam NBs

acw37162

Like almost everything in the NB tool kit it is ridiculously good, and when I say ridiculously good..../ off topic but still important it is even more ridiculous by the passive ways NB's can generate ultimate.

You only need 5vmin on test to realize how over the top this is in a class with a tool kit of over the top tools.

Also tested dawn breaker of smighting which I could not get to hit a single target as hard as incap but they were not the same targets and I didn't know the resistances of the targets.

My opinion after testing; ultimate cost needs to go or damage needs to come down considerably.

The only legitimate point I found in here regarding the defense of incap on test is the NB ass. passive should also return stamina if the base stamina value is higher then magica on a kill with an ass. ability

Attackopsn

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I've got a lot of complaints about Stamblades, but the cost of this ultimate is not one of them. For a single target, 50 ultimate is not bad compared to Overload light attacks, which cost around 22 per target, IIRC.

HOWEVER....

There's a reason so many people are griping about Stamblades and calling for nerfs, and it's not just because we need to "git gud" or L2P. The fact is that when you look at the sum total of abilities and buffs possessed by Stamblades, it's obvious that they are overpowered. Incap Strike is just one of many super strong attacks that, when added together, make Stamblades impossible to beat with many otherwise good builds and playstyles.

I get killed all the time by Templars, DKs, Magicka Nightblades and other Sorcs, and when it happens, it usually obvious that the other player was more skilled (or more lucky) than I am. Stamblades are a whole different story. When I run into one of these really tough Stamblade builds, one of three things happens:

1) The Stamblade kills me so fast I don't even have time to fight back. See my infamous screenshot in the OP

2) I go on the defensive, but even my usually beefy Wards are not enough. I just keep casting Hardened and Healing Ward while I try to Streak or run away, but it never works, and I get gap-closed and die in a few seconds.

3) I go on the offensive, but my dog slow attacks like Curse and Frags take so long to proc, that the Stamblade has already killed me before the Curse detonates. When looking at the logs, the Stamblades' attacks always do way more damage.

Some of the reasons these things happen are be because PvP is so heavily biased towards Stamina builds over Magicka builds. Don't even try to argue otherwise! When was the last time you heard somebody tell Stamina builds that Medium armor sucked, and that they really should switch to Heavy? Yet, Magicka builds have to hear that kind of crap all the time. But that doesn't explain why Stamblades are so much harder to deal with than Stamplars and WB spamming Dragonknights.

ZOS has given Nightblades a ton of stamina morphs and buffs that make the other classes look like unloved stepchildren. And the worst thing is, the more people complain, the more ZOS buffs Stamblades! That's the real reason threads like this exist, in my opinion. Incap Strike just adds insult to injury.

Stamina Nightblades apply more sustained pressure in pvp than these classes. The reason that you find this more problematic, like so many people have mentioned, is because you:

1. Do not have enough points into hardy

2. Do not have enough impen gear equipped

Especially on a class that has wards, or utilizes non class wards, you have an edge against these players who benefit dramatically from critical hits. The fact that you are taking damage of this caliber, is because you either do not have many champion points, are not wearing strong gear, or you do not know how to play your class. You cannot possibly use the picture provided to deliver a reasonable argument against this class as a whole. Many people here have provided reasonable evidence or opinions for, or against this ultimate, but your example in particular should be completely disregarded for the reasons posted by so many others in this discussion.

Anti_Virus

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I've got a lot of complaints about Stamblades, but the cost of this ultimate is not one of them. For a single target, 50 ultimate is not bad compared to Overload light attacks, which cost around 22 per target, IIRC.

HOWEVER....

There's a reason so many people are griping about Stamblades and calling for nerfs, and it's not just because we need to "git gud" or L2P. The fact is that when you look at the sum total of abilities and buffs possessed by Stamblades, it's obvious that they are overpowered. Incap Strike is just one of many super strong attacks that, when added together, make Stamblades impossible to beat with many otherwise good builds and playstyles.

I get killed all the time by Templars, DKs, Magicka Nightblades and other Sorcs, and when it happens, it usually obvious that the other player was more skilled (or more lucky) than I am. Stamblades are a whole different story. When I run into one of these really tough Stamblade builds, one of three things happens:

1) The Stamblade kills me so fast I don't even have time to fight back. See my infamous screenshot in the OP

2) I go on the defensive, but even my usually beefy Wards are not enough. I just keep casting Hardened and Healing Ward while I try to Streak or run away, but it never works, and I get gap-closed and die in a few seconds.

3) I go on the offensive, but my dog slow attacks like Curse and Frags take so long to proc, that the Stamblade has already killed me before the Curse detonates. When looking at the logs, the Stamblades' attacks always do way more damage.

Some of the reasons these things happen are be because PvP is so heavily biased towards Stamina builds over Magicka builds. Don't even try to argue otherwise! When was the last time you heard somebody tell Stamina builds that Medium armor sucked, and that they really should switch to Heavy? Yet, Magicka builds have to hear that kind of crap all the time. But that doesn't explain why Stamblades are so much harder to deal with than Stamplars and WB spamming Dragonknights.

ZOS has given Nightblades a ton of stamina morphs and buffs that make the other classes look like unloved stepchildren. And the worst thing is, the more people complain, the more ZOS buffs Stamblades! That's the real reason threads like this exist, in my opinion. Incap Strike just adds insult to injury.

PVP is NOT biased to Stam, but its Biased to magicka builds.

-you get a zerg bombing skill (magicka det)
-Zerg bombing set (VD)
-Shields for days that stack and are uncritable
-tons of healing(entire weapon skill line for it)
-Majority of ultimates are magic dmg


As for point 3.) That's your fault for not utilizing other skills, maybe instead of following other FoTM builds you can try other skill (Pets) I mean sorcs DO have a skill tree dedicated to it yet most of them ignore it.

NBs have stam morphs because people were tired of playing magic NB when the design of it was stamina
Incap strike will give stam NBs other options for ult skills that scale with mighty since almost every other ulti scales with elemental expert.

Kas

DDuke wrote: »

I do wonder why people aren't so up in arms about Dawnbreaker of Smiting though.

Next patch it's going to deal physical damage too, and more burst than Incap - while also being undodgeable and AoE.

Note:
Not saying I disagree that Incap needs some work to make it more balanced.

for me, it's because dawnbreaker (not sure if smiting) doesn't totally own me on the pts. whereas incap does pretty often. not sure if everyone uses flawless dawnbreaker or if it's just because of the cost (not every incap strike kills me but stambalde duels are a nightmare because of it) or maybe the healing debuff.

however: playing vs incap is like duelling with a zerg build on live: insanely difficult to win even against below-average opponents

ManDraKE

Lyar09 wrote: »

I would agree with you fully if the ult cost wasnt so low. With certain sets and also the nightblade passives, a nightblade can literally use their "ult" as a main dps ability. Also, even in open world even if its a 1vX scenario, you're still going to use single target abilities as a night to do damage. It is really hard to tell what the game will be like once DB goes live, but as of right now I'm just pointing out what I've personally seen on pts and from what others are saying.

well yeah, NB's have a really high ulti regen, and if you use heroic slash or blood spawn you can get an insane uptime on incap. To be honest, i wouldn't mind if they increase the cost to around 80 or something like that, as long as remains cheaper than dawnbreaker is fine i guess.

Attackopsn

ManDraKE wrote: »

Lyar09 wrote: »

I would agree with you fully if the ult cost wasnt so low. With certain sets and also the nightblade passives, a nightblade can literally use their "ult" as a main dps ability. Also, even in open world even if its a 1vX scenario, you're still going to use single target abilities as a night to do damage. It is really hard to tell what the game will be like once DB goes live, but as of right now I'm just pointing out what I've personally seen on pts and from what others are saying.

well yeah, NB's have a really high ulti regen, and if you use heroic slash or blood spawn you can get an insane uptime on incap. To be honest, i wouldn't mind if they increase the cost to around 80 or something like that, as long as remains cheaper than dawnbreaker is fine i guess.

Cost increase isn't unreasonable. Again though, comparing DB to soul harvest, DB is an AoE.

Vangy

I don't know where you people are getting these numbers from.... I run 20k phy resist, 23k spell res, 2.3k impen.... Incap barely hits me for 7-8k... Ive seen 10k very rarely but those are cheese ganker builds. I survive the burst and then thyre build is GG to me. They run 0 sustain. If you survive their burst they will go splat on the floor or mash their face on cloak to desperately try to run away....

I play both stamina and mag for most classes as you can see from my sig. I dont get why its totally okay for my magNB/sorc to lotus fan/streak into groups of players with proxy/vd and soul tether/batswarm to do like 20k damage to the whole world around me but its Armageddon when my poor NB hits a 10k crit on a PVE carebear in PVE carebear gear??? I mean the VD thing dosent even need huge groups of 20 to work. Just find 3-5 players and you are good to go. L2P you say? Don't stack? Hold block on flag? The same way incap can be countered too. Run impen. Run some heavy pieces... If you want to potato around with 10k phy resist in 7 light you will get rekt.....

Without proper gear it dosent even take an incap to hit 10k. A single wrecking blow will hit you for over 10k... For reference, I have a full DPS dk with 42k stam and close to 5k weapon damage. I have 501 CP. The other day I hit a 15k+ wb on someone followed by a leap that did ard 15k+ too. Dosent mean leap and WB needs to be nerfed. Just compare Leap to Incap. Leap hits just as hard. Its an AOE ult. Its also a gap closer. It cheap as well.

In all honesty NBs generate ult so fast you could increase the cost of incap to 80 but it wont make much of a difference. They are going to regen it just as fast give or take 5 seconds more.

potirondb16_ESO

Lyar09 wrote: »

Also, dawnbreaker doesn't hit anywhere near as hard as incap. I've tested with as high as weapon damage as you can get to and it doesn't come anywhere close. You're probably just looking at the tooltip and don't realize that it doesn't got that hard. Dawnbreaker also doesn't offer the you the utility incap does or the cost.

Maybe it's just me but I've been trying to figure out how many ultimate there was that were actually hitting only 1 target, (overload not being in the discussion) and I've come up that maybe the atronach, and for sure the soul ultimate were the only 2 other single target ultimate...

Incap is kind of a special ultimate, doesn't work from range, doesn't always work, and doesn't always crit (which lead to 16k) so what... An other skill who can stun everyone, do more domage to werewolf and vamp, and affect multiple target isn't making the par...

I mean obviously Incap is nice, and it's a bit the Nightblade version of Crystal Frag (which do can hit for 12k+ on some player maybe more if I was actually pve spec (which most ganker are, maybe sometime worst they are gank spec)). I mean I've been looking at a duel in between a magika DK and a StamBlade and honnestly they were both good player but there was no way the Nightblade was hitting him with Incap that hard. Sometimes yes half the hp but most of the time 8k top.

Was the nightblade having an advantage over the magika dk when that ultimate proc maybe, was he able to sustain the dps of the magika Dk, no way ! So I don't know what to say, is it OP, probably is it too OP... barely, is it fair that the best gank class also get a good gank skill...up to you to figure out... maybe they should still be magika but heal you for half the domage they produce... ... maybe... or just make it disease and let it do that