Kas wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I do wonder why people aren't so up in arms about Dawnbreaker of Smiting though.

Next patch it's going to deal physical damage too, and more burst than Incap - while also being undodgeable and AoE.

Note:
Not saying I disagree that Incap needs some work to make it more balanced.

for me, it's because dawnbreaker (not sure if smiting) doesn't totally own me on the pts. whereas incap does pretty often. not sure if everyone uses flawless dawnbreaker or if it's just because of the cost (not every incap strike kills me but stambalde duels are a nightmare because of it) or maybe the healing debuff.

however: playing vs incap is like duelling with a zerg build on live: insanely difficult to win even against below-average opponents

On the pts everyone is dueling so of course their going to use incap.

People are going to prefer dawnbreaker of smiting for open world of small group, it's an aoe cc with a high dot that gives 3% wpn dmg.

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Even impenetrable heavy armor not helping vs incap-whatever-it-called strike. Not balanced.

Cinbri wrote: »

Even impenetrable heavy armor not helping vs incap-whatever-it-called strike. Not balanced.

Have you tested it?

Do you have a screenshot?

With impen heavy armour and 73 hardy cp you should only get hit for 7-8k. Show me a screenshot or I call BS.

Maybe you're just crying wolf to get NB nerfed because you're another class and have trouble beating them.

thats what this whole thread is about

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I do wonder why people aren't so up in arms about Dawnbreaker of Smiting though.

Next patch it's going to deal physical damage too, and more burst than Incap - while also being undodgeable and AoE.

Note:
Not saying I disagree that Incap needs some work to make it more balanced.

for me, it's because dawnbreaker (not sure if smiting) doesn't totally own me on the pts. whereas incap does pretty often. not sure if everyone uses flawless dawnbreaker or if it's just because of the cost (not every incap strike kills me but stambalde duels are a nightmare because of it) or maybe the healing debuff.

however: playing vs incap is like duelling with a zerg build on live: insanely difficult to win even against below-average opponents

On the pts everyone is dueling so of course their going to use incap.

People are going to prefer dawnbreaker of smiting for open world of small group, it's an aoe cc with a high dot that gives 3% wpn dmg.

so it's okay if they tune down incap so that the skill doesn't f*ing BREAK duels anymore? for several long-term players duels are one of the primary things they still enjoy about the game

dueling doesn't prove skill and nobody likes it in its current state.

acw37162 wrote: »

Like almost everything in the NB tool kit it is ridiculously good, and when I say ridiculously good..../ off topic but still important it is even more ridiculous by the passive ways NB's can generate ultimate.

You only need 5vmin on test to realize how over the top this is in a class with a tool kit of over the top tools.

Also tested dawn breaker of smighting which I could not get to hit a single target as hard as incap but they were not the same targets and I didn't know the resistances of the targets.

My opinion after testing; ultimate cost needs to go or damage needs to come down considerably.

The only legitimate point I found in here regarding the defense of incap on test is the NB ass. passive should also return stamina if the base stamina value is higher then magica on a kill with an ass. ability

and i think that no one has given a legitimate argument for nerfing incap.

Kas wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I do wonder why people aren't so up in arms about Dawnbreaker of Smiting though.

Next patch it's going to deal physical damage too, and more burst than Incap - while also being undodgeable and AoE.

Note:
Not saying I disagree that Incap needs some work to make it more balanced.

for me, it's because dawnbreaker (not sure if smiting) doesn't totally own me on the pts. whereas incap does pretty often. not sure if everyone uses flawless dawnbreaker or if it's just because of the cost (not every incap strike kills me but stambalde duels are a nightmare because of it) or maybe the healing debuff.

however: playing vs incap is like duelling with a zerg build on live: insanely difficult to win even against below-average opponents

On the pts everyone is dueling so of course their going to use incap.

People are going to prefer dawnbreaker of smiting for open world of small group, it's an aoe cc with a high dot that gives 3% wpn dmg.

so it's okay if they tune down incap so that the skill doesn't f*ing BREAK duels anymore? for several long-term players duels are one of the primary things they still enjoy about the game

To be fair, this game is not balanced around dueling. It 8s balanced around open world large scale pvp. You know what this game advertised. This is why it will be interesting to see how dueling and arenas will be im0lemented.

@Wrobel does the disease damage from incap strike and other nb attacks proc the healing debuff?

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

Ever consider just removing the damage nerf yall introduced in imperial city rather than keep buffing skills to do more damage? And nerfing defensive skills like sorc shields? Ffs it seems like yall been working against that change since it happened.

Incapap damage was not buffed. It was merely changed to scale off of a different champ tree.

That´s like saying shields were not nerfed bc their potency remains untouched in DB.

Defacto the change to desease dmg equals a 25% increase to the skills dmg. Also the skill now scales with the "right" penetration for stam users - alongside stamina penetration got buffed with the sharpened changes in general.

As a result of these changes the dmg of said skill is adjusted upwards significantly.

no change to disease damage means the possibility of a 25% increase if placed into mighty. Sharpened changes effect all morphs. do not limit changes applied to all as a buff to one ability.

the fact is the base damage of the ability was not buffed. you cant say that an ability was buffed because outside factors can make it stronger. on live i could run incap strike and get a 25% damage bonus too. the damage bonus was simply switched.
By your train of thought that means that incap strike was also nerfed at the same time it was buffed. If a buff occured because it was changed to mighty, then a nerf occured because it is no longer magic.

also, people keep talking about omg the damage. have you tested it? in reality as many have pointed out, a decent player with a decent build will get hit any where from 8k-12k. that is what an ult should hit for. Additionally, death stroke can hit extremely hard on live. If a ganker hits the same player in the picture in this thread, they would do equal damage with soul harvest. I dont know why people dont understand this. Heck, i can hit 12k concealed weapons ganking people on live.

It is obvious how many people are either purposely avoiding this fact or simply do not understand because lack of testing. This thread has actually become ridiculous because of this. Every time points like this get brought up, people just ignre them like they were never stated and go back to it is OP. So far every argument made in this thread has been countered by logical and informed arguments to the contrary with counter arguments to those arguments being nothing but a circular argument back to the points that have already been refuted. it really is funny at this point.

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

Ever consider just removing the damage nerf yall introduced in imperial city rather than keep buffing skills to do more damage? And nerfing defensive skills like sorc shields? Ffs it seems like yall been working against that change since it happened.

Incapap damage was not buffed. It was merely changed to scale off of a different champ tree.

That´s like saying shields were not nerfed bc their potency remains untouched in DB.

Defacto the change to desease dmg equals a 25% increase to the skills dmg. Also the skill now scales with the "right" penetration for stam users - alongside stamina penetration got buffed with the sharpened changes in general.

As a result of these changes the dmg of said skill is adjusted upwards significantly.

no change to disease damage means the possibility of a 25% increase if placed into mighty. Sharpened changes effect all morphs. do not limit changes applied to all as a buff to one ability.

the fact is the base damage of the ability was not buffed. you cant say that an ability was buffed because outside factors can make it stronger. on live i could run incap strike and get a 25% damage bonus too. the damage bonus was simply switched.
By your train of thought that means that incap strike was also nerfed at the same time it was buffed. If a buff occured because it was changed to mighty, then a nerf occured because it is no longer magic.

also, people keep talking about omg the damage. have you tested it? in reality as many have pointed out, a decent player with a decent build will get hit any where from 8k-12k. that is what an ult should hit for. Additionally, death stroke can hit extremely hard on live. If a ganker hits the same player in the picture in this thread, they would do equal damage with soul harvest. I dont know why people dont understand this. Heck, i can hit 12k concealed weapons ganking people on live.

It is obvious how many people are either purposely avoiding this fact or simply do not understand because lack of testing. This thread has actually become ridiculous because of this. Every time points like this get brought up, people just ignre them like they were never stated and go back to it is OP. So far every argument made in this thread has been countered by logical and informed arguments to the contrary with counter arguments to those arguments being nothing but a circular argument back to the points that have already been refuted. it really is funny at this point.

Are you for real or is it just you´re really bored for whatever reason?
Sharpened change benefits everyone across the board - what in my comment leads to believe otherwise (the skill now scaling with the correct penetration for stam users is a buff in my book)?

If a skill gets changed to accommodate the fact that placing 100 points into mighty when playing a stamina based build is a very logical choice to make - that´s adjusting the skill to benefit from the same "outside factors" as everything else in your build - effectively resulting in a 25% dmg increase (or a little less if you had a few points into magic dmg before).
In my book this can and should be called a buff to said skill when used in the setting of a stamina based build.

Incap strike was indeed nerfed for magica builds (and my magblade is a little sad about this).

To the rest of that wall of text: Not arguing if op or not. Will use it on my stamblade.

so if it was a nerf to mag and a buff to stam, wouldn't that mean that it is effectively in the same position?

I also dont agree that you can bring the buff to penetration into the equation because that applies to all. By that logic, all attacks were buffed in the game. That said, resistance was buffed also so again it balanced itself out.

as for correct scaling for penetration, a fix is not a buff. Just like when nb cloak was fixed and people equated it to a buff. a fix does not equal a buff.

yes i can agree it was a buff to stam builds. What i can not agree to is that the ability itself was buffed. the ability was not buffed per se. it merely changed its scaling.

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

Ever consider just removing the damage nerf yall introduced in imperial city rather than keep buffing skills to do more damage? And nerfing defensive skills like sorc shields? Ffs it seems like yall been working against that change since it happened.

Incapap damage was not buffed. It was merely changed to scale off of a different champ tree.

That´s like saying shields were not nerfed bc their potency remains untouched in DB.

Defacto the change to desease dmg equals a 25% increase to the skills dmg. Also the skill now scales with the "right" penetration for stam users - alongside stamina penetration got buffed with the sharpened changes in general.

As a result of these changes the dmg of said skill is adjusted upwards significantly.

no change to disease damage means the possibility of a 25% increase if placed into mighty. Sharpened changes effect all morphs. do not limit changes applied to all as a buff to one ability.

the fact is the base damage of the ability was not buffed. you cant say that an ability was buffed because outside factors can make it stronger. on live i could run incap strike and get a 25% damage bonus too. the damage bonus was simply switched.
By your train of thought that means that incap strike was also nerfed at the same time it was buffed. If a buff occured because it was changed to mighty, then a nerf occured because it is no longer magic.

also, people keep talking about omg the damage. have you tested it? in reality as many have pointed out, a decent player with a decent build will get hit any where from 8k-12k. that is what an ult should hit for. Additionally, death stroke can hit extremely hard on live. If a ganker hits the same player in the picture in this thread, they would do equal damage with soul harvest. I dont know why people dont understand this. Heck, i can hit 12k concealed weapons ganking people on live.

It is obvious how many people are either purposely avoiding this fact or simply do not understand because lack of testing. This thread has actually become ridiculous because of this. Every time points like this get brought up, people just ignre them like they were never stated and go back to it is OP. So far every argument made in this thread has been countered by logical and informed arguments to the contrary with counter arguments to those arguments being nothing but a circular argument back to the points that have already been refuted. it really is funny at this point.

Are you for real or is it just you´re really bored for whatever reason?
Sharpened change benefits everyone across the board - what in my comment leads to believe otherwise (the skill now scaling with the correct penetration for stam users is a buff in my book)?

If a skill gets changed to accommodate the fact that placing 100 points into mighty when playing a stamina based build is a very logical choice to make - that´s adjusting the skill to benefit from the same "outside factors" as everything else in your build - effectively resulting in a 25% dmg increase (or a little less if you had a few points into magic dmg before).
In my book this can and should be called a buff to said skill when used in the setting of a stamina based build.

Incap strike was indeed nerfed for magica builds (and my magblade is a little sad about this).

To the rest of that wall of text: Not arguing if op or not. Will use it on my stamblade.

so if it was a nerf to mag and a buff to stam, wouldn't that mean that it is effectively in the same position?

I also dont agree that you can bring the buff to penetration into the equation because that applies to all. By that logic, all attacks were buffed in the game. That said, resistance was buffed also so again it balanced itself out.

as for correct scaling for penetration, a fix is not a buff. Just like when nb cloak was fixed and people equated it to a buff. a fix does not equal a buff.

yes i can agree it was a buff to stam builds. What i can not agree to is that the ability itself was buffed. the ability was not buffed per se. it merely changed its scaling.

Yep that´s what i wanted to say. The ability was changed to scale with everything stamina related which results in making it hugely attractive for stam builds and less so for magbuilds. Give one while taking from the other.

I wished ZOS would have chosen a different approach to let ultimates scale dynamically with mighty or elemental expert (whichever is higher) and whichever penetration (physical or magical) is higher to allow every ultimate to be of the same use to all builds alike (as this would go a long way helping templars and stamsorcs aswell).

i wish they would just introduce a separate damage like "ult damage" or something. maybe drop one of the less used champ stars and introduce one that increases your ult damage.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

FatKidHatchets wrote: »

Ever consider just removing the damage nerf yall introduced in imperial city rather than keep buffing skills to do more damage? And nerfing defensive skills like sorc shields? Ffs it seems like yall been working against that change since it happened.

Incapap damage was not buffed. It was merely changed to scale off of a different champ tree.

That´s like saying shields were not nerfed bc their potency remains untouched in DB.

Defacto the change to desease dmg equals a 25% increase to the skills dmg. Also the skill now scales with the "right" penetration for stam users - alongside stamina penetration got buffed with the sharpened changes in general.

As a result of these changes the dmg of said skill is adjusted upwards significantly.

no change to disease damage means the possibility of a 25% increase if placed into mighty. Sharpened changes effect all morphs. do not limit changes applied to all as a buff to one ability.

the fact is the base damage of the ability was not buffed. you cant say that an ability was buffed because outside factors can make it stronger. on live i could run incap strike and get a 25% damage bonus too. the damage bonus was simply switched.
By your train of thought that means that incap strike was also nerfed at the same time it was buffed. If a buff occured because it was changed to mighty, then a nerf occured because it is no longer magic.

also, people keep talking about omg the damage. have you tested it? in reality as many have pointed out, a decent player with a decent build will get hit any where from 8k-12k. that is what an ult should hit for. Additionally, death stroke can hit extremely hard on live. If a ganker hits the same player in the picture in this thread, they would do equal damage with soul harvest. I dont know why people dont understand this. Heck, i can hit 12k concealed weapons ganking people on live.

It is obvious how many people are either purposely avoiding this fact or simply do not understand because lack of testing. This thread has actually become ridiculous because of this. Every time points like this get brought up, people just ignre them like they were never stated and go back to it is OP. So far every argument made in this thread has been countered by logical and informed arguments to the contrary with counter arguments to those arguments being nothing but a circular argument back to the points that have already been refuted. it really is funny at this point.

Are you for real or is it just you´re really bored for whatever reason?
Sharpened change benefits everyone across the board - what in my comment leads to believe otherwise (the skill now scaling with the correct penetration for stam users is a buff in my book)?

If a skill gets changed to accommodate the fact that placing 100 points into mighty when playing a stamina based build is a very logical choice to make - that´s adjusting the skill to benefit from the same "outside factors" as everything else in your build - effectively resulting in a 25% dmg increase (or a little less if you had a few points into magic dmg before).
In my book this can and should be called a buff to said skill when used in the setting of a stamina based build.

Incap strike was indeed nerfed for magica builds (and my magblade is a little sad about this).

To the rest of that wall of text: Not arguing if op or not. Will use it on my stamblade.

so if it was a nerf to mag and a buff to stam, wouldn't that mean that it is effectively in the same position?

I also dont agree that you can bring the buff to penetration into the equation because that applies to all. By that logic, all attacks were buffed in the game. That said, resistance was buffed also so again it balanced itself out.

as for correct scaling for penetration, a fix is not a buff. Just like when nb cloak was fixed and people equated it to a buff. a fix does not equal a buff.

yes i can agree it was a buff to stam builds. What i can not agree to is that the ability itself was buffed. the ability was not buffed per se. it merely changed its scaling.

Yep that´s what i wanted to say. The ability was changed to scale with everything stamina related which results in making it hugely attractive for stam builds and less so for magbuilds. Give one while taking from the other.

I wished ZOS would have chosen a different approach to let ultimates scale dynamically with mighty or elemental expert (whichever is higher) and whichever penetration (physical or magical) is higher to allow every ultimate to be of the same use to all builds alike (as this would go a long way helping templars and stamsorcs aswell).

i wish they would just introduce a separate damage like "ult damage" or something. maybe drop one of the less used champ stars and introduce one that increases your ult damage.

Also an intriguing idea but that could potentially cause problems for pve balancing for classes depending on ultimates and would as a result require a much higher rebalancing effort for everything.

Though i really really like the thought with the combination of minor heroism, tavas set, bloodspawn and other things (the new decisive trait). It´s definetly worth a few thoughts

Data from PTS (too lazy for screenshot):

Fully Buffed: Major Brutality + Relentless Focus
3.8k Weapon Damage
32k Stamina

Incap tooltip: 17k

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Data from PTS (too lazy for screenshot):

Fully Buffed: Major Brutality + Relentless Focus
3.8k Weapon Damage
32k Stamina

Incap tooltip: 17k

Ooh just wait till the pros get their hands on one with 40k stam, 4k dmg buffed.. Itll be carnage

Ya. My build is pretty regen oriented atm. I'm pushing 2-2.5k stamina regen typically so....The damage stackers will be having a field day. Then again Flawless Dawnbreaker/Smiting are looking pretty sexy too. Don't even know.

lathbury wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I guess it's just a coincidence that every single 'real' Nightblade, namely one that has played a Nightblade since the release of ESO, seems to agree that Incapacitating Strike in its current form on the PTS is overpowered.

This includes people who have been playing a Stamina Nightblade since March 2014.

well your wrong i dont and have played nighblades since early access
as an aside its really interesting that aside from this thread in all others you have claimed to be playing a sorc or magblade

There are ppl stating sorc shields on live are too weak aswell.

cant wait to hit one with a cc just before his shields expire so many are gonna have to l2p now there is a viable counter play that doesnt involve a dodgy set that nerfs your build

Just reduces build variety and nerfs any non cookie-cutter build more than those already tripplestacking. You´ll still need shieldbreaker but atleast that´s now a vailed and needed option against stamina and magica alike.

not really with the gcd by the time a triple stacker has cast the klast one the first will now be half expired. if they continue to try and keep all three up they arent doing any damage so its gonna be a double or single shield and thats where a timley cc with burst helps.

on a mag blade the obvious choice is to whittle there stam

The_Outsider wrote: »

Data from PTS (too lazy for screenshot):

Fully Buffed: Major Brutality + Relentless Focus
3.8k Weapon Damage
32k Stamina

Incap tooltip: 17k

so in pvp 8.5k then sounds reasonable

After having tested with templates on pts: I don´t think the dmg is a real issue. The stun on an instant non avoidable (unless you were already dodging/blocking) high dmg ability is.
Incap + relentless focus on pts puts any burst my sorc can put out to shame. The problem being that if you eat that incap the assassins scourge will hit you 100% (sorc burst gives the target a timer with curse and frags are easily dodged even in melee).
Admittedly only had a short time playing with that - still i think it´s the most potent burst skill combination currently in the game.

I´m not sure if i would adjust anything but if - it would be the stun on incap not the dmg (i´d replace it with a snare or short root).