Jesus Beam doesn't need a nerf, it just needs a proper animation to show it's power.

It's weird that you cannot dodge or block it. Are there many other skills in this came that you cannot dodge or block?

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Same as Impale.

That way, we can actually use all of the counterplay that ZOS says the skill has -- "just interrupt them!"

Perhaps even reduce the execute range to 25%.

Problem solved.

FFS, do we really need another one of these threads?

You're trying to make jesus beam like impale, and when was the last time you actually used impale on your bars in pvp? Right, that's what I thought.

First, it was Jules' thread saying jesus beam does too much damage at high health and I don't want to have to change my build in any way (ironically enough in her vid last week about lag she was jesus beamed at full health multiple times and it did jack to her). Now that that's failed, we're trying for range too? I have zero problems combating jesus beam when I pvp. Zero. I find it hilarious that so many l33t players claim to have so much trouble with such a highly counterable skill.

I'm with Zheg on this one. Radiant Destruction rarely causes me any problems in PvP. I find skills like Bombard to be infinitely more frustrating to play against.

Against decent players with decent builds, RD does negligible damage outside of <25% health. Even then, a good player can purge/heal through it pretty easily. RD really only becomes unstoppable in the <5-10% health range. At that point it hits hard, yes, but who cares if it's doing 18k damage when you only have 2k health left.

What's more is that most good templars running in good groups rarely use this skill at all. You aren't going to sit there and single target one guy while your group is bombing another group. When I'm on my templar, the vast majority of my kills come from Prox + Bats/Dawnbreaker combos.

Purdomination33 wrote: »

It's weird that you cannot dodge or block it. Are there many other skills in this came that you cannot dodge or block?

Well the root of the complaints is the one trick pony defense of dodge. People made this there main and in some cases only defense. They built their character around this central pillar of dodge out of trouble and run / counter attack. It's beautiful because it does not need to be slotted to provide defense.

Counters to dodge have been implimented (and to block, when that was everyone's easy button). They added increased cost for multiple rolls.

The thing is being able to roll dodge out of a channel was a bug and never intended. It just took them so long to fix it that everyone just excepted it that way.

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Why not make Jesus Beam take a "Snapshot" of your health on cast, like the Vampire ability "Drain Essence". That way if someone was beaming you at full HP, the beam would deal low damage throughout the channel and someone who was using it as an execute would benefit?

Couple this with changing the execute to only starting to scale from 30%, and I think it will be much better then the current Jesus Beam.

EDIT: Contextual errors.

Because that would be a noticable DPS loss and then ZoS would have to give Templar moar offensive toys to post similar DPS parses of NBs and DKs and (overloading) sorcs.

Also it is hardly ever acknowledged that the scaling damage sometimes works against the templar. It's ok for Executioner to take a "snapshot" of the target's current health because all of its damage is delivered up-front and in an instant. It is thus 100% efficient. While people on these forums who complain about Jesus Beam doing more damage as the skill is channeled, that does not always happen. If I am at 35% health and a templar used RD, I *could* actually counter the ability (instead of standing idle) and cast breath of life so my health will be at something like 60% health. Now the next tick, RD does little damage so the scaling system can work against the templar and actually be another one of the many many counters to the ability. The scaling system allows for dynamic and interesting gameplay.

Also, and probably the biggest reason, is the "snapshot" theory ignores the very logic that RD is a channel that lasts roughly 3 seconds. Consider a 2-handed build spamming Executioner for 6 seconds on a Raid boss. Numbers are totally arbitrary but do follow the scaling pattern of the skill (i.e. it's not linear, increases higher the closer target gets to 0 health):

Swing 1: Boss health 30%, damage: 13,000
Swing 2: Boss health 26%, damage: 14,500
Swing 3: Boss health 22%, damage: 16,400
Swing 4: Boss health 18%, damage: 18,200
Swing 5: Boss health 14%, damage: 20,100
Swing 6: Boss health 10%, damage: 23,000

Now consider a templar against the same boss with the same damage potential. This is what 6 seconds of RD would look like under the "snapshot" mechanic. Note: Boss health numbers are higher because it's taking less damage

Second 1: Boss health 30%, damage: 13,000
Second 2: Boss health 26%, damage: 13,000
Second 3: Boss health 23%, damage: 13,000
Second 4 (first tick of second casting): Boss health 20%, damage 17,100
Second 5: Boss health 17%, damage: 17,100
Second 6: Boss health 14%, damage: 17,100

Do you see why the scaling mechanism makes sense now even if you don't like being the target? Even though Executioner takes 'snapshots," those snapshots are taken every second and thus a execution spammer is having her damage adjusted accordingly over those 6 seconds. RD's channel scaling mechanic just simulates the dynamic gameplay that would otherwise happen in those three seconds if RD was an instant cast. The "snapshot" theory would completely undermine that. You are an insightful poster and I think can appreciate that logic.

****

As far as the other people who hate this spell, they are probably reading this and thinking to themselves, "there goes Joy again, making absurd and biased justifications again for an OP noob spell." Good. Because I think the same thing when I read them defending stuff like the new Incapacitating Strike. They have their toys which I hate, I have mine. And to Mrs. Quietus extensive list of coutners to RD, we can add one more for this patch: a scaling bone shield for those dodge roll spammers. Shield are *very* effective means to counter RD because they do exactly what you propose, prevent the skill from scaling upward against the target and thus give the target the opportunity to heal herself. But I guess it was too much trouble for people who hate this ability to think of that, let along slot it on their bars, so they would rather come to these forums and whine to ZoS and get the skill nerfed.

Joy_Division wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Why not make Jesus Beam take a "Snapshot" of your health on cast, like the Vampire ability "Drain Essence". That way if someone was beaming you at full HP, the beam would deal low damage throughout the channel and someone who was using it as an execute would benefit?

Couple this with changing the execute to only starting to scale from 30%, and I think it will be much better then the current Jesus Beam.

EDIT: Contextual errors.

Because that would be a noticable DPS loss and then ZoS would have to give Templar moar offensive toys to post similar DPS parses of NBs and DKs and (overloading) sorcs.

Also it is hardly ever acknowledged that the scaling damage sometimes works against the templar. It's ok for Executioner to take a "snapshot" of the target's current health because all of its damage is delivered up-front and in an instant. It is thus 100% efficient. While people on these forums who complain about Jesus Beam doing more damage as the skill is channeled, that does not always happen. If I am at 35% health and a templar used RD, I *could* actually counter the ability (instead of standing idle) and cast breath of life so my health will be at something like 60% health. Now the next tick, RD does little damage so the scaling system can work against the templar and actually be another one of the many many counters to the ability. The scaling system allows for dynamic and interesting gameplay.

Also, and probably the biggest reason, is the "snapshot" theory ignores the very logic that RD is a channel that lasts roughly 3 seconds. Consider a 2-handed build spamming Executioner for 6 seconds on a Raid boss. Numbers are totally arbitrary but do follow the scaling pattern of the skill (i.e. it's not linear, increases higher the closer target gets to 0 health):

Swing 1: Boss health 30%, damage: 13,000
Swing 2: Boss health 26%, damage: 14,500
Swing 3: Boss health 22%, damage: 16,400
Swing 4: Boss health 18%, damage: 18,200
Swing 5: Boss health 14%, damage: 20,100
Swing 6: Boss health 10%, damage: 23,000

Now consider a templar against the same boss with the same damage potential. This is what 6 seconds of RD would look like under the "snapshot" mechanic. Note: Boss health numbers are higher because it's taking less damage

Second 1: Boss health 30%, damage: 13,000
Second 2: Boss health 26%, damage: 13,000
Second 3: Boss health 23%, damage: 13,000
Second 4 (first tick of second casting): Boss health 20%, damage 17,100
Second 5: Boss health 17%, damage: 17,100
Second 6: Boss health 14%, damage: 17,100

Do you see why the scaling mechanism makes sense now even if you don't like being the target? Even though Executioner takes 'snapshots," those snapshots are taken every second and thus a execution spammer is having her damage adjusted accordingly over those 6 seconds. RD's channel scaling mechanic just simulates the dynamic gameplay that would otherwise happen in those three seconds if RD was an instant cast. The "snapshot" theory would completely undermine that.

People are probably reading this and thinking to themselves, "there goes Joy again, making absurd and biased justifications again for an OP noob spell." Good. Because I think the same thing when I read them defending stuff like the new Incapacitating Strike. They have their toys which I hate, I have mine. And to Mrs. Quietus extensive list of coutners to RD, we can add one more for this patch: a scaling bone shield for those dodge roll spammers. Shield are *very* effective means to counter RD because they do exactly what you propose, prevent the skill from scaling upward against the target and thus give the target the opportunity to heal herself. But I guess it was too much trouble to think of that, let along slot it on people's bars, so they would rather come to these forums and whine to ZoS and get the skill nerfed.

I understand your concerns about snapshotting in a PvE setting, and that was something I didn't think about. So that wouldn't be the best idea from a PvE perspective. On the other hand, it isn't exactly fun or engaging gameplay to be beamed down from 41m while the beamer in question is hiding behind a wall of allies. Hence my suggestion of "Snapshotting" as a middle ground between not having range reduced or damage cut.

Currently though, most complaints about Radiant Destruction comes from Stamina builds, which currently do not have a viable damage shield that doesn't instantly evaporate. This will change however with the next update, but until the next update hits, your suggestion of using a damage shield on a stamina build isn't exactly feasible. I'm all for changing Radiant Destruction to an instant cast ability rather then a channel though.

The issue with RD in PvP is that it's a fantastic Xv1 ability but a really pathetic 1vX ability. Therefore, mileage would vary based on the user. Changing the channelled beam into an instant cast would be a nice balance, since "Snapshotting" cannot be implemented due to PvE concerns. I'm not trying to get any class nerfed, just trying to seek a nice compromise where most people would be happy. (Also for the record, I don't like the new Incap Strike changes. But eh, #WrobelLogic)

Rylana wrote: »

Tonight had one such instance of an AD scrubplar that cast it on me not 5 times, not 7 times, but EIGHT straight times while I had 3 nightblades trying to chain fear and SA spam me down. He did exactly zero else.

I've had 1 NB on me and 3 Templars hitting me with Jesus Beam all at once . And here I thought I was special. shucks

You know what else is a shame? I pressed the cloak button and they suddenly couldn't hit me with it any more. The best part is seeing their eyes fill with big tears, as their far reaching hand once full of bright brilliant radiance is suddenly filled with empty nothings as it comes to rest on their hips. I will take all those laughs to my guild bank! $$

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Why not make Jesus Beam take a "Snapshot" of your health on cast, like the Vampire ability "Drain Essence". That way if someone was beaming you at full HP, the beam would deal low damage throughout the channel and someone who was using it as an execute would benefit?

Couple this with changing the execute to only starting to scale from 30%, and I think it will be much better then the current Jesus Beam.

EDIT: Contextual errors.

Because that would be a noticable DPS loss and then ZoS would have to give Templar moar offensive toys to post similar DPS parses of NBs and DKs and (overloading) sorcs.

Also it is hardly ever acknowledged that the scaling damage sometimes works against the templar. It's ok for Executioner to take a "snapshot" of the target's current health because all of its damage is delivered up-front and in an instant. It is thus 100% efficient. While people on these forums who complain about Jesus Beam doing more damage as the skill is channeled, that does not always happen. If I am at 35% health and a templar used RD, I *could* actually counter the ability (instead of standing idle) and cast breath of life so my health will be at something like 60% health. Now the next tick, RD does little damage so the scaling system can work against the templar and actually be another one of the many many counters to the ability. The scaling system allows for dynamic and interesting gameplay.

.

****

As far as the other people who hate this spell, they are probably reading this and thinking to themselves, "there goes Joy again, making absurd and biased justifications again for an OP noob spell." Good. Because I think the same thing when I read them defending stuff like the new Incapacitating Strike. They have their toys which I hate, I have mine. And to Mrs. Quietus extensive list of coutners to RD, we can add one more for this patch: a scaling bone shield for those dodge roll spammers. Shield are *very* effective means to counter RD because they do exactly what you propose, prevent the skill from scaling upward against the target and thus give the target the opportunity to heal herself. But I guess it was too much trouble for people who hate this ability to think of that, let along slot it on their bars, so they would rather come to these forums and whine to ZoS and get the skill nerfed.

I've been a big user of shields as a Templar for following reasons:
- tried to have more defense to align with design intent of the Templar
- negate crit on burst attacks
- negate penetration
- as of TG patch, to stop RD spam.

Now my build has shifted but my counters to RD have not. If I die to RD, it's because I'm at 30% health, no shield and standing there not putting pressure on the templars in question.

This argument has always been concealed behind a groupplay issue. Substitute RD with any skill in 1vx situations and you'll be met with the same conclusions.
it's why we have an issue with gap closers too, on their own they mean nothing but when 5 people spam it on you it sucks.

Maybe we need to start building more tanks in pvp? Use shields? ::shrug::

Less and less people have been using sturdy builds since CP was added and soft caps were removed. They stack everything into stam or magicka and then wonder why they get melted, and cry nerf.

Sallington wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Why not make Jesus Beam take a "Snapshot" of your health on cast, like the Vampire ability "Drain Essence". That way if someone was beaming you at full HP, the beam would deal low damage throughout the channel and someone who was using it as an execute would benefit?

Couple this with changing the execute to only starting to scale from 30%, and I think it will be much better then the current Jesus Beam.

EDIT: Contextual errors.

Because that would be a noticable DPS loss and then ZoS would have to give Templar moar offensive toys to post similar DPS parses of NBs and DKs and (overloading) sorcs.

Also it is hardly ever acknowledged that the scaling damage sometimes works against the templar. It's ok for Executioner to take a "snapshot" of the target's current health because all of its damage is delivered up-front and in an instant. It is thus 100% efficient. While people on these forums who complain about Jesus Beam doing more damage as the skill is channeled, that does not always happen. If I am at 35% health and a templar used RD, I *could* actually counter the ability (instead of standing idle) and cast breath of life so my health will be at something like 60% health. Now the next tick, RD does little damage so the scaling system can work against the templar and actually be another one of the many many counters to the ability. The scaling system allows for dynamic and interesting gameplay.

.

****

As far as the other people who hate this spell, they are probably reading this and thinking to themselves, "there goes Joy again, making absurd and biased justifications again for an OP noob spell." Good. Because I think the same thing when I read them defending stuff like the new Incapacitating Strike. They have their toys which I hate, I have mine. And to Mrs. Quietus extensive list of coutners to RD, we can add one more for this patch: a scaling bone shield for those dodge roll spammers. Shield are *very* effective means to counter RD because they do exactly what you propose, prevent the skill from scaling upward against the target and thus give the target the opportunity to heal herself. But I guess it was too much trouble for people who hate this ability to think of that, let along slot it on their bars, so they would rather come to these forums and whine to ZoS and get the skill nerfed.

I've been a big user of shields as a Templar for following reasons:
- tried to have more defense to align with design intent of the Templar
- negate crit on burst attacks
- negate penetration
- as of TG patch, to stop RD spam.

Now my build has shifted but my counters to RD have not. If I die to RD, it's because I'm at 30% health, no shield and standing there not putting pressure on the templars in question.

This argument has always been concealed behind a groupplay issue. Substitute RD with any skill in 1vx situations and you'll be met with the same conclusions.
it's why we have an issue with gap closers too, on their own they mean nothing but when 5 people spam it on you it sucks.

Maybe we need to start building more tanks in pvp? Use shields? ::shrug::

Less and less people have been using sturdy builds since CP was added and soft caps were removed. They stack everything into stam or magicka and then wonder why they get melted, and cry nerf.

Yup thats my argument too. I've said it before, health and defense now play a better role in this game than before. If you want to ignore it, that's fine. But don't base nerf calls on the fact you went full weapon dmg/resource and expect to run into a zerg head-on.

Soris wrote: »

This destroys entire functionality of templar ranged dd build. I like my dark flare+dark flare+beam combo when i play. So no

Ew your trash. let me 1vX you and your scrub templar friends with my vr1 real quick.

JimT722 wrote: »

Most of the time I get hit with rd is at 80% health. I can't even see my health drop.

Exactly . There's only a few Templars I've encountered that know this isn't a spam ability , it's an execute and works great as such .

I mean I don't have too much trouble with jesus beam because..

1. never in cyrodiil, always in IC so they never too far away
2. I cloak to get the beam off me then I target them and give them the big daddy burst of dreams