Make the range of Jesus Beam 18 meters.

Chori · May 2016

I personally use venom arrow to counter it and I adapted my morph just for the templars, cheap skill if you are using a bow and decent DoT.

There is nothing more satisfying than countering the baddies that spam it in the middle of a group of people and think they are safe doing it, or the people that just spams the ability at 100% health thinking "I'm in my house and I'm super safe". There are counters but the best counter is your own brain and learn how to engage, when to do it, who to kill first and when to stay out of a fight if what you want is to 1vX or if what you want to do is make that person's game experience go to ***.

Also playing drunk doesn't help too much against magplars altho its fun, but awareness is the key and as a stamina right now you either cry for a nerf or you adapt and put yourself in a situation where it will be easier to outplay your enemy.

My 2 cents

RinaldoGandolphi · May 2016

Radiant Destruction is fine as it is.

The only builds that have issues with it are builds whose primary defense mechanics is based around dodge roll

dodge roll is the most powerful damage avoidance mechanic in the game because it does not require a skill slot on your bar and it also avoids any hard CC on abilities that can be dodged(most of the games damaging skills can be dodged)

The fact channeled skills(such as Radiant Destruction) can not be dodged is fair play to counter balance this.

The primary reason Templars are using Radiant Destruction so much is because its literally the only clas skill Templars have that will hit a perma dodge build asnd they are still stuck at a disadvantage being rooted in place and stuck in a channell that can easily get them killed.

Radiant Destruction is one of the "very few" counters to dodge roll and dodge chance users.

This won't be an issue next update because stam builds are getting some very solid shield choices and form a defense perspective will have it better then magic users ever have as they will ahve damage sheilds, dodge roll, and dodge chance all viable where as magic builds will just have sheields and heals...it will be very lopsided...no need to nerf Radiant with the chances coming in a few weeks

frozywozy · May 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Radiant Destruction is fine as it is.

The only builds that have issues with it are builds whose primary defense mechanics is based around dodge roll

dodge roll is the most powerful damage avoidance mechanic in the game because it does not require a skill slot on your bar and it also avoids any hard CC on abilities that can be dodged(most of the games damaging skills can be dodged)

The fact channeled skills(such as Radiant Destruction) can not be dodged is fair play to counter balance this.

The primary reason Templars are using Radiant Destruction so much is because its literally the only clas skill Templars have that will hit a perma dodge build asnd they are still stuck at a disadvantage being rooted in place and stuck in a channell that can easily get them killed.

Radiant Destruction is one of the "very few" counters to dodge roll and dodge chance users.

This won't be an issue next update because stam builds are getting some very solid shield choices and form a defense perspective will have it better then magic users ever have as they will ahve damage sheilds, dodge roll, and dodge chance all viable where as magic builds will just have sheields and heals...it will be very lopsided...no need to nerf Radiant with the chances coming in a few weeks

No. As long as Shield stacking will entirely nullify crit builds, Shield Stacking will remain alot stronger than Dodge rolling. There are a ton of CCs that go through dodge rolling.

Minno · May 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Radiant Destruction is fine as it is.

The only builds that have issues with it are builds whose primary defense mechanics is based around dodge roll

dodge roll is the most powerful damage avoidance mechanic in the game because it does not require a skill slot on your bar and it also avoids any hard CC on abilities that can be dodged(most of the games damaging skills can be dodged)

The fact channeled skills(such as Radiant Destruction) can not be dodged is fair play to counter balance this.

The primary reason Templars are using Radiant Destruction so much is because its literally the only clas skill Templars have that will hit a perma dodge build asnd they are still stuck at a disadvantage being rooted in place and stuck in a channell that can easily get them killed.

Radiant Destruction is one of the "very few" counters to dodge roll and dodge chance users.

This won't be an issue next update because stam builds are getting some very solid shield choices and form a defense perspective will have it better then magic users ever have as they will ahve damage sheilds, dodge roll, and dodge chance all viable where as magic builds will just have sheields and heals...it will be very lopsided...no need to nerf Radiant with the chances coming in a few weeks

No. As long as Shield stacking will entirely nullify crit builds, Shield Stacking will remain alot stronger than Dodge rolling. There are a ton of CCs that go through dodge rolling.

Not counting the shields following counters:
- CP dmg star
- 6 second duration (sorc's now under this umbrella for DB)
- shieldbteaker set
- timed CC to prevent shield reapply.
- skill slot required

Counters to dodge roll:
- CC
- channel spells
- tied to stamina resource.

It's a free mitigation for stam builds due to fact you should most builds achieve high stam regen and cost reduction. Add that to the fact it requires no spot on the skill bar that it outperforms shield for mitigation currently.

maxjapank · May 2016

SneaK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Should be able to dodge it. That change would have little to do with PvE and everything to do with PvP.

Absolutely not. We've been down this road before. You make it dodge able and no one will use it. There are plenty of counters to it. It really is a L2P issue, and most of those complaining here are ones who either use the Shuffle/dodge macro or want to 1vX and are upset that they lost to X.

Hahah a l2p issue.. I have a V16 Templar, and think the ability is a little much. If you are using Radiant properly it will more than likely kill your target before they could even dodge roll it. If you're spamming it at full health, I understand why you wouldn't want another player to be able to dodge it..

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

Darnathian · May 2016

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them. [/quote]

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

allen-iverson · May 2016

i cant feel my face when im with you...

but i love it..
but i love it

KenaPKK · May 2016

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

Darnathian · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

me? post that video

maxjapank · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

I think the deal is that so many people I play against do just fine against my Radiant. And many people I know, not to mention ZOS, are okay with the skill as is. But you need to come up in here and try and nerf something because you aren't happy with it. The range and damage are fine as is. Templars lack mobility and the channel snares us. It's a fine trade off compared to your Impale range which is an instant execute which belongs to a highly mobile class.

I also didn't accuse you of using the Shuffle/dodge macro. But I know for a fact it is used by some people. I even know someone who has sent in a video showing ZOS exactly how it's done.

Hadan_of_Rift · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

The problem is not durability. The problem is that a templar can sit well outside of my range of reaction, push one button at me while I am at full health, and make it so that if I fall below 40% health, I die. In its current state, a Radiant held on a person at high health while they take fire from other players is practically a 40% max health debuff because if they reach 40% health, they get chunked by the execute crits without the ability to block or dodge the hits. RD is the only skill in the game that behaves this way.

LOL then it's a L2P issue you are a magicka NB and you get beat 1 on 1 by RD spam - that's embarrassing. Oh and Destro has all these nice abilities that have the exact same range (one even stuns the RD spammer), and crippling grasp, siphon, etc

Poxheart · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Same as Impale.

That way, we can actually use all of the counterplay that ZOS says the skill has -- "just interrupt them!"

Perhaps even reduce the execute range to 25%.

Problem solved.

FFS, do we really need another one of these threads?

You're trying to make jesus beam like impale, and when was the last time you actually used impale on your bars in pvp? Right, that's what I thought. .

Impale was on my bar and a critical part of my rotation ....

...back before the mag/stam split when there were softcaps.

KenaPKK · May 2016

Poxheart wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Same as Impale.

That way, we can actually use all of the counterplay that ZOS says the skill has -- "just interrupt them!"

Perhaps even reduce the execute range to 25%.

Problem solved.

FFS, do we really need another one of these threads?

You're trying to make jesus beam like impale, and when was the last time you actually used impale on your bars in pvp? Right, that's what I thought. .

Impale was on my bar and a critical part of my rotation ....

...back before the mag/stam split when there were softcaps.

Impale is fantastic on a destro/resto Swallow Soul mageblade... Dual wield mageblade does a ton of burst and doesn't need an execute, but it does increase the kill potential of destro/resto mageblade immensely. I love it.

KenaPKK · May 2016

Hadan_of_Rift wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

The problem is not durability. The problem is that a templar can sit well outside of my range of reaction, push one button at me while I am at full health, and make it so that if I fall below 40% health, I die. In its current state, a Radiant held on a person at high health while they take fire from other players is practically a 40% max health debuff because if they reach 40% health, they get chunked by the execute crits without the ability to block or dodge the hits. RD is the only skill in the game that behaves this way.

LOL then it's a L2P issue you are a magicka NB and you get beat 1 on 1 by RD spam - that's embarrassing. Oh and Destro has all these nice abilities that have the exact same range (one even stuns the RD spammer), and crippling grasp, siphon, etc

I've made it quite clear that this isn't a problem 1 on 1. RD is a problem in outnumbered situations. Please read the thread before making useless comments.

KenaPKK · May 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

I think the deal is that so many people I play against do just fine against my Radiant. And many people I know, not to mention ZOS, are okay with the skill as is. But you need to come up in here and try and nerf something because you aren't happy with it. The range and damage are fine as is. Templars lack mobility and the channel snares us. It's a fine trade off compared to your Impale range which is an instant execute which belongs to a highly mobile class.

I also didn't accuse you of using the Shuffle/dodge macro. But I know for a fact it is used by some people. I even know someone who has sent in a video showing ZOS exactly how it's done.

There are also many, many people who have a problem with the skill. I simply speak out that the channel, snare, and all of the other supposed risk / downside to the skill are eliminated when the templar stands at long range except against a few character classes. Reducing the range to ~20m would be a completely acceptable nerf, eliminating a LOT of players' frustrations and maintaining consistent counterplay. The times when a templar actually gets their enemy into execute range won't be affected, just the times when templars sit back at max range spamming the skill on enemies regardless of health.

maxjapank · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

I think the deal is that so many people I play against do just fine against my Radiant. And many people I know, not to mention ZOS, are okay with the skill as is. But you need to come up in here and try and nerf something because you aren't happy with it. The range and damage are fine as is. Templars lack mobility and the channel snares us. It's a fine trade off compared to your Impale range which is an instant execute which belongs to a highly mobile class.

I also didn't accuse you of using the Shuffle/dodge macro. But I know for a fact it is used by some people. I even know someone who has sent in a video showing ZOS exactly how it's done.

I simply speak out that the channel, snare, and all of the other supposed risk / downside to the skill are eliminated when the templar stands at long range except against a few character classes. Reducing the range to ~20m would be a completely acceptable nerf, eliminating a LOT of players' frustrations and maintaining consistent counterplay..

But it really doesn't eliminate the risk. Long range means that you can move away from it. And since it's a channel, I can't keep pace with you. And I know this because I experience this all the time. And when I do use it up close, I often have to Channel > block > channel because I know I'm going to be interrupted. It isn't an instant skill. There is plenty of risk as is given that Templar's have no mobility and the channel snares them.

Your "consistent counter play" is you wanting to take on an outnumbered force and defeat them all. Good on you. But don't come in here whining and asking for a nerf when a Templar's Radiant keeps you from doing that. Use the numerous tools at your disposal to counter Radiant. Joy has given you a nice list.

Furthermore, the game isn't balanced around you 1vXing. Radiant is fine 1v1. And it is fine XvX. Enough said.

KenaPKK · May 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

I think the deal is that so many people I play against do just fine against my Radiant. And many people I know, not to mention ZOS, are okay with the skill as is. But you need to come up in here and try and nerf something because you aren't happy with it. The range and damage are fine as is. Templars lack mobility and the channel snares us. It's a fine trade off compared to your Impale range which is an instant execute which belongs to a highly mobile class.

I also didn't accuse you of using the Shuffle/dodge macro. But I know for a fact it is used by some people. I even know someone who has sent in a video showing ZOS exactly how it's done.

I simply speak out that the channel, snare, and all of the other supposed risk / downside to the skill are eliminated when the templar stands at long range except against a few character classes. Reducing the range to ~20m would be a completely acceptable nerf, eliminating a LOT of players' frustrations and maintaining consistent counterplay..

But it really doesn't eliminate the risk. Long range means that you can move away from it. And since it's a channel, I can't keep pace with you. And I know this because I experience this all the time. And when I do use it up close, I often have to Channel > block > channel because I know I'm going to be interrupted. It isn't an instant skill. There is plenty of risk as is given that Templar's have no mobility and the channel snares them.

Your "consistent counter play" is you wanting to take on an outnumbered force and defeat them all. Good on you. But don't come in here whining and asking for a nerf when a Templar's Radiant keeps you from doing that. Use the numerous tools at your disposal to counter Radiant. Joy has given you a nice list.

Furthermore, the game isn't balanced around you 1vXing. Radiant is fine 1v1. And it is fine XvX. Enough said.

Can't run out of range when you're snared by everything under the sun.

And radiant is just as op in siege fights and XvX. Radiant is not balanced for real world situations where people fight people, regardless of numbers, where templars can sit out of the fight and push one button. This is not a new complaint, and I share it with many people. You don't really have room to defend it here...

maxjapank · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

I think the deal is that so many people I play against do just fine against my Radiant. And many people I know, not to mention ZOS, are okay with the skill as is. But you need to come up in here and try and nerf something because you aren't happy with it. The range and damage are fine as is. Templars lack mobility and the channel snares us. It's a fine trade off compared to your Impale range which is an instant execute which belongs to a highly mobile class.

I also didn't accuse you of using the Shuffle/dodge macro. But I know for a fact it is used by some people. I even know someone who has sent in a video showing ZOS exactly how it's done.

I simply speak out that the channel, snare, and all of the other supposed risk / downside to the skill are eliminated when the templar stands at long range except against a few character classes. Reducing the range to ~20m would be a completely acceptable nerf, eliminating a LOT of players' frustrations and maintaining consistent counterplay..

But it really doesn't eliminate the risk. Long range means that you can move away from it. And since it's a channel, I can't keep pace with you. And I know this because I experience this all the time. And when I do use it up close, I often have to Channel > block > channel because I know I'm going to be interrupted. It isn't an instant skill. There is plenty of risk as is given that Templar's have no mobility and the channel snares them.

Your "consistent counter play" is you wanting to take on an outnumbered force and defeat them all. Good on you. But don't come in here whining and asking for a nerf when a Templar's Radiant keeps you from doing that. Use the numerous tools at your disposal to counter Radiant. Joy has given you a nice list.

Furthermore, the game isn't balanced around you 1vXing. Radiant is fine 1v1. And it is fine XvX. Enough said.

Can't run out of range when you're snared by everything under the sun.

And radiant is just as op in siege fights and XvX. Radiant is not balanced for real world situations where people fight people, regardless of numbers, where templars can sit out of the fight and push one button. This is not a new complaint, and I share it with many people. You don't really have room to defend it here...

You have such a warped idea of what Templars do and how Templars play. And that's exactly why I can defend the skill better than you. And if so many people couldn't adapt to Radiant, then where are the tons of threads complaining about it. There aren't. There's just yours now.

vortexman11 · May 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

I think the deal is that so many people I play against do just fine against my Radiant. And many people I know, not to mention ZOS, are okay with the skill as is. But you need to come up in here and try and nerf something because you aren't happy with it. The range and damage are fine as is. Templars lack mobility and the channel snares us. It's a fine trade off compared to your Impale range which is an instant execute which belongs to a highly mobile class.

I also didn't accuse you of using the Shuffle/dodge macro. But I know for a fact it is used by some people. I even know someone who has sent in a video showing ZOS exactly how it's done.

I simply speak out that the channel, snare, and all of the other supposed risk / downside to the skill are eliminated when the templar stands at long range except against a few character classes. Reducing the range to ~20m would be a completely acceptable nerf, eliminating a LOT of players' frustrations and maintaining consistent counterplay..

But it really doesn't eliminate the risk. Long range means that you can move away from it. And since it's a channel, I can't keep pace with you. And I know this because I experience this all the time. And when I do use it up close, I often have to Channel > block > channel because I know I'm going to be interrupted. It isn't an instant skill. There is plenty of risk as is given that Templar's have no mobility and the channel snares them.

Your "consistent counter play" is you wanting to take on an outnumbered force and defeat them all. Good on you. But don't come in here whining and asking for a nerf when a Templar's Radiant keeps you from doing that. Use the numerous tools at your disposal to counter Radiant. Joy has given you a nice list.

Furthermore, the game isn't balanced around you 1vXing. Radiant is fine 1v1. And it is fine XvX. Enough said.

Can't run out of range when you're snared by everything under the sun.

And radiant is just as op in siege fights and XvX. Radiant is not balanced for real world situations where people fight people, regardless of numbers, where templars can sit out of the fight and push one button. This is not a new complaint, and I share it with many people. You don't really have room to defend it here...

You have such a warped idea of what Templars do and how Templars play. And that's exactly why I can defend the skill better than you. And if so many people couldn't adapt to Radiant, then where are the tons of threads complaining about it. There aren't. There's just yours now.

They're sitting back reading this thread but avoiding to post because they know its a lost cause. @KenaPKK Abandon ship while you still can, the forumplars cannot be beaten.

Zheg · May 2016

vortexman11 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

I think the deal is that so many people I play against do just fine against my Radiant. And many people I know, not to mention ZOS, are okay with the skill as is. But you need to come up in here and try and nerf something because you aren't happy with it. The range and damage are fine as is. Templars lack mobility and the channel snares us. It's a fine trade off compared to your Impale range which is an instant execute which belongs to a highly mobile class.

I also didn't accuse you of using the Shuffle/dodge macro. But I know for a fact it is used by some people. I even know someone who has sent in a video showing ZOS exactly how it's done.

I simply speak out that the channel, snare, and all of the other supposed risk / downside to the skill are eliminated when the templar stands at long range except against a few character classes. Reducing the range to ~20m would be a completely acceptable nerf, eliminating a LOT of players' frustrations and maintaining consistent counterplay..

But it really doesn't eliminate the risk. Long range means that you can move away from it. And since it's a channel, I can't keep pace with you. And I know this because I experience this all the time. And when I do use it up close, I often have to Channel > block > channel because I know I'm going to be interrupted. It isn't an instant skill. There is plenty of risk as is given that Templar's have no mobility and the channel snares them.

Your "consistent counter play" is you wanting to take on an outnumbered force and defeat them all. Good on you. But don't come in here whining and asking for a nerf when a Templar's Radiant keeps you from doing that. Use the numerous tools at your disposal to counter Radiant. Joy has given you a nice list.

Furthermore, the game isn't balanced around you 1vXing. Radiant is fine 1v1. And it is fine XvX. Enough said.

Can't run out of range when you're snared by everything under the sun.

And radiant is just as op in siege fights and XvX. Radiant is not balanced for real world situations where people fight people, regardless of numbers, where templars can sit out of the fight and push one button. This is not a new complaint, and I share it with many people. You don't really have room to defend it here...

You have such a warped idea of what Templars do and how Templars play. And that's exactly why I can defend the skill better than you. And if so many people couldn't adapt to Radiant, then where are the tons of threads complaining about it. There aren't. There's just yours now.

They're sitting back reading this thread but avoiding to post because they know its a lost cause. @KenaPKK Abandon ship while you still can, the forumplars cannot be beaten.

Can confirm. We've had a lot of practice obliterating the poorly evidenced arguments for why it's unbalanced over the past few weeks. First we started with blab's video of a terrible example, one he later admitted to. Then we moved to Jules' thread of yet another terrible video trying to compare each execute and argue that it does too much damage at high hp. She later admitted the video was garbage, and then posted a video on lag where she ironically was jesus beamed at full health multiple times in that large keep fight (the same type of fights kena is trying and failing to use as a reason for the nerf) and she was able to completely ignore it because nothing happened. Now we arrive at Kena's thread where we are trying to get the range nerfed because reasons.

The super majority of people who want this changed are DKs. DKs can reflect all magplar damage with the exception of puncturing sweep, which they can just talons and move 1 m to the side, making them by far the best hard counter to any class. They counter all. magplar. damage. All of it. DF, javelin, reflective light, all reflected back in your face. DKs cannot counter jesus beam as easily as a nb, sorc (sorry stam sorcs, blame wrobel), or templars, and thus, do not like it when someone they have significant advantages over now has an advantage on them in some situations. Furthermore, stam builds struggle most with countering this ONE skill, and yet will be getting bone shield next patch as an additional easy counter that will likely already be on people's bars for other reasons. "Let's nerf a skill now, and by now I mean it'll take them at least a month to code, so that when we get more counters in a month it will be even less of an issue and I can continue flapping my wings unimpeded."

MaxwellC · May 2016

@Mumyo
I literally burst into laughter when you said

Mumyo wrote: »

It should be like: If someone interrupts u during the beam, u explode for 50% of ur own health.
But noobfriendliness bringts numbers, so no... they won't change it.

Man that was super funny XD!
I feel that this ability just needs to be dodge-able then we'd be able to dodge n heal up like we should be able to do.

danno8 · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

... and yet will be getting bone shield next patch as an additional easy counter that will likely already be on people's bars for other reasons. "Let's nerf a skill now, and by now I mean it'll take them at least a month to code, so that when we get more counters in a month it will be even less of an issue and I can continue flapping my wings unimpeded."

People will still complain though, because they don't want to have to slot a skill to counter one classes strength. You know like how everyone had to slot Radiant Magelight to counter stealth (or use a potion on a 45s cd). Or have to slot at least one non-reflectable skill to counter Flappy Wings, or use a whole set like Shield Breaker to counter Sorcs shield stacking.

vortexman11 wrote: »

They're sitting back reading this thread but avoiding to post because they know its a lost cause. @KenaPKK Abandon ship while you still can, the forumplars cannot be beaten.

You counter RD just fine. But you also give up a whole lot of offense to counter everything. I don't think predominantly offensive builds should be able to have all angles covered.

What the OP wants for stamina builds to be able to charge the RD user and obliterate them with a WB/Executioner combo, while dodge roll animation cancelling to avoid any and all other damage from 5 other people. Magicka build have no problem against RD already, so I'm not sure why his character is not just using cloak or purge or a shield already. Shields are phenomenal to counter RD, since you can attack the undefended RD user while the RD tickles the shield.

Rohamad_Ali · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm probably the worst offending RD spammer around. Yes, it's very strong, but you're kidding yourself if you think there aren't counters to it and that other classes have things that aren't just as annoying.

How about using Mist Form? That's what I do. I'm in all infused light armor with basically no defenses aside from BoL and Mist Form. I can survive in a fight for hours. It's not super hard. Mist form can eat a RD, a Frag and 2 meteors at the same time. Embrace it.

Also, I'd like to challenge who some of you think the "noobs" are. The person smart enough to know that his best ability should be used from the safety of standing behind 15 meat shields, or the idiot who forum rages because they keep dying to the same move. I can get 100 kills in an hour in the IC mostly off of people glowing purple who only use VD and proxidet. I personally only have 3 attacks, Reflective Light, RD and my heavy attacks. I use them because they work best for me. If you don't like it, not my problem. I don't particularly like getting feared or hit by a big purple crystal but it is what it is. Use your tools.

Bottom line, there are dozens of counters to everything but everyone will have a weakness.

Side note: How do we actually determine who has the most honorable build? Some of you sound like you roll around Cyrodiil in a loin cloth and bare knuckle groups of 20 while you bathe in glory. If you clown your opponents for using the tools they are given then you're the one with the problem.

Mist form? Oh yeah that ability based off a skill line that favor magicka users ? That skill that cost 4k magicka ? same problem as using Efficient Purge. It is just not possible for a stam class who already use 3 other magicka skills to do it.

FFS frozn. You have immunity to projectiles, a great capacity to mitigate and avoid melee attacks, the best mobility in a permaroot/snare meta, and will soon be getting a full shield comparable to hardened ward. If you have to make sacrifices to counter ONE ASPECT of magicka damage, or just accept being vulnerable to it, that's called balance. [self snipped] You want to have your cake and eat it too, we get it, but that's not how balance works.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2016

@maxjapank makes some good points about the skill and I'd like to add another, since what he says dovetails into my own comments about mobility. The magplar has ***-poor mobility, and while channeling he's stopped in place. Very rarely in Cyrodiil is combat static, apart from the standoff periods at keep walls. If you're breaking up lines at Keep Walls, I expect hit and run tactics anyway, or that you would be in a blob army/zerg/ball group.

The point I'm making is that the Templar often gets isolated quickly while RD-ing. One shift in battle and you've got an easily isolated Templar all alone if he's not careful, sitting back there laser-beaming everyone in sight. 2 seconds is an eternity in pvp, and even a dark flare can get you isolated from your chums. All it takes is for them to turn a corner.

Personally, I could care less if they ruin the RD Skill, but instead gave us an Eclipse that functioned (turn it into Reflective scales please) and give us Blinding Flashes back or some proper cc. I miss the days when these two skills were in the lineup. (Eclipse was awesome early in the game, when there was no cc immunity). The whole crowd control element of the Templar class got ruined by CC-Immunity, something that needed to be added to the game, but that wasn't thought out for the Templar class design. I would argue that Templar still has problems in this arena even to this day, and with the hardcore nerfing of our Cleanse its going to be interesting.

Once again I'd like to say you're not comparing apples with oranges. As an NB you can cloak out, you can pop blur, you can fire off a refreshing path, you can fire a cripple: All of which speed you up. Conversely, almost everything a Templar attacks with actually slows him down. Again, there's a reason behind the thinking here. Templar's weakness is that mid-range, but they do well at close/long range. I'd like to add that a good DK can shut down a Templar pretty hard, although the battle can take forever between these two given the right conditions.

I'm just trying to say that the issue isn't quite so simple as you state. (Just as an aside: I've been pushing the notion of Reflects only being a percentage for a long time, which I would include Eclipse under. I think skills need balance but they should also have a chance to actually work).

KenaPKK · May 2016

vortexman11 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

I think the deal is that so many people I play against do just fine against my Radiant. And many people I know, not to mention ZOS, are okay with the skill as is. But you need to come up in here and try and nerf something because you aren't happy with it. The range and damage are fine as is. Templars lack mobility and the channel snares us. It's a fine trade off compared to your Impale range which is an instant execute which belongs to a highly mobile class.

I also didn't accuse you of using the Shuffle/dodge macro. But I know for a fact it is used by some people. I even know someone who has sent in a video showing ZOS exactly how it's done.

I simply speak out that the channel, snare, and all of the other supposed risk / downside to the skill are eliminated when the templar stands at long range except against a few character classes. Reducing the range to ~20m would be a completely acceptable nerf, eliminating a LOT of players' frustrations and maintaining consistent counterplay..

But it really doesn't eliminate the risk. Long range means that you can move away from it. And since it's a channel, I can't keep pace with you. And I know this because I experience this all the time. And when I do use it up close, I often have to Channel > block > channel because I know I'm going to be interrupted. It isn't an instant skill. There is plenty of risk as is given that Templar's have no mobility and the channel snares them.

Your "consistent counter play" is you wanting to take on an outnumbered force and defeat them all. Good on you. But don't come in here whining and asking for a nerf when a Templar's Radiant keeps you from doing that. Use the numerous tools at your disposal to counter Radiant. Joy has given you a nice list.

Furthermore, the game isn't balanced around you 1vXing. Radiant is fine 1v1. And it is fine XvX. Enough said.

Can't run out of range when you're snared by everything under the sun.

And radiant is just as op in siege fights and XvX. Radiant is not balanced for real world situations where people fight people, regardless of numbers, where templars can sit out of the fight and push one button. This is not a new complaint, and I share it with many people. You don't really have room to defend it here...

You have such a warped idea of what Templars do and how Templars play. And that's exactly why I can defend the skill better than you. And if so many people couldn't adapt to Radiant, then where are the tons of threads complaining about it. There aren't. There's just yours now.

They're sitting back reading this thread but avoiding to post because they know its a lost cause. @KenaPKK Abandon ship while you still can, the forumplars cannot be beaten.

Yup. I've been asking around to people who know the game better than these forumplars what they think of radiant and magplars in general, and I've yet to find a single person who hasn't called for a nerf. One said he'd been watching the thread, and that I summoned up every zergling templar in the game.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised..

frozywozy · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

I think the deal is that so many people I play against do just fine against my Radiant. And many people I know, not to mention ZOS, are okay with the skill as is. But you need to come up in here and try and nerf something because you aren't happy with it. The range and damage are fine as is. Templars lack mobility and the channel snares us. It's a fine trade off compared to your Impale range which is an instant execute which belongs to a highly mobile class.

I also didn't accuse you of using the Shuffle/dodge macro. But I know for a fact it is used by some people. I even know someone who has sent in a video showing ZOS exactly how it's done.

I simply speak out that the channel, snare, and all of the other supposed risk / downside to the skill are eliminated when the templar stands at long range except against a few character classes. Reducing the range to ~20m would be a completely acceptable nerf, eliminating a LOT of players' frustrations and maintaining consistent counterplay..

But it really doesn't eliminate the risk. Long range means that you can move away from it. And since it's a channel, I can't keep pace with you. And I know this because I experience this all the time. And when I do use it up close, I often have to Channel > block > channel because I know I'm going to be interrupted. It isn't an instant skill. There is plenty of risk as is given that Templar's have no mobility and the channel snares them.

Your "consistent counter play" is you wanting to take on an outnumbered force and defeat them all. Good on you. But don't come in here whining and asking for a nerf when a Templar's Radiant keeps you from doing that. Use the numerous tools at your disposal to counter Radiant. Joy has given you a nice list.

Furthermore, the game isn't balanced around you 1vXing. Radiant is fine 1v1. And it is fine XvX. Enough said.

Can't run out of range when you're snared by everything under the sun.

And radiant is just as op in siege fights and XvX. Radiant is not balanced for real world situations where people fight people, regardless of numbers, where templars can sit out of the fight and push one button. This is not a new complaint, and I share it with many people. You don't really have room to defend it here...

You have such a warped idea of what Templars do and how Templars play. And that's exactly why I can defend the skill better than you. And if so many people couldn't adapt to Radiant, then where are the tons of threads complaining about it. There aren't. There's just yours now.

They're sitting back reading this thread but avoiding to post because they know its a lost cause. @KenaPKK Abandon ship while you still can, the forumplars cannot be beaten.

Yup. I've been asking around to people who know the game better than these forumplars what they think of radiant and magplars in general, and I've yet to find a single person who hasn't called for a nerf. One said he'd been watching the thread, and that I summoned up every zergling templar in the game. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised..

Kena, you gotta understand that if the VE crew doesn't share your opinion, you will have a very hard time making your point in these forums. This is how it works. You gotta make sure that the VE council analyzed and accepted your opinions before you can talk about them openly and freely without being ridiculed and judged badly. They represent pretty much 75% of the posters in the Alliance War section.

OdinForge · May 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

I think the deal is that so many people I play against do just fine against my Radiant. And many people I know, not to mention ZOS, are okay with the skill as is. But you need to come up in here and try and nerf something because you aren't happy with it. The range and damage are fine as is. Templars lack mobility and the channel snares us. It's a fine trade off compared to your Impale range which is an instant execute which belongs to a highly mobile class.

I also didn't accuse you of using the Shuffle/dodge macro. But I know for a fact it is used by some people. I even know someone who has sent in a video showing ZOS exactly how it's done.

I simply speak out that the channel, snare, and all of the other supposed risk / downside to the skill are eliminated when the templar stands at long range except against a few character classes. Reducing the range to ~20m would be a completely acceptable nerf, eliminating a LOT of players' frustrations and maintaining consistent counterplay..

But it really doesn't eliminate the risk. Long range means that you can move away from it. And since it's a channel, I can't keep pace with you. And I know this because I experience this all the time. And when I do use it up close, I often have to Channel > block > channel because I know I'm going to be interrupted. It isn't an instant skill. There is plenty of risk as is given that Templar's have no mobility and the channel snares them.

Your "consistent counter play" is you wanting to take on an outnumbered force and defeat them all. Good on you. But don't come in here whining and asking for a nerf when a Templar's Radiant keeps you from doing that. Use the numerous tools at your disposal to counter Radiant. Joy has given you a nice list.

Furthermore, the game isn't balanced around you 1vXing. Radiant is fine 1v1. And it is fine XvX. Enough said.

Can't run out of range when you're snared by everything under the sun.

And radiant is just as op in siege fights and XvX. Radiant is not balanced for real world situations where people fight people, regardless of numbers, where templars can sit out of the fight and push one button. This is not a new complaint, and I share it with many people. You don't really have room to defend it here...

You have such a warped idea of what Templars do and how Templars play. And that's exactly why I can defend the skill better than you. And if so many people couldn't adapt to Radiant, then where are the tons of threads complaining about it. There aren't. There's just yours now.

They're sitting back reading this thread but avoiding to post because they know its a lost cause. @KenaPKK Abandon ship while you still can, the forumplars cannot be beaten.

Yup. I've been asking around to people who know the game better than these forumplars what they think of radiant and magplars in general, and I've yet to find a single person who hasn't called for a nerf. One said he'd been watching the thread, and that I summoned up every zergling templar in the game. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised..

Kena, you gotta understand that if the VE crew doesn't share your opinion, you will have a very hard time making your point in these forums. This is how it works. You gotta make sure that the VE council analyzed and accepted your opinions before you can talk about them openly and freely without being ridiculed and judged badly. They represent pretty much 75% of the posters in the Alliance War section.

The solo player-base (or small scale) has already largely voiced their opinions on jesus beam, with DB changes so close to dropping it's mostly a pointless discussion now. Changes that will likely help deal with this skill, the discussions in the past will likely no longer be relevant in the next patch (something no one could predict in the past).

The "solo players" don't frequent the forums as often like group players seem to do, group/guild members will back each other up regardless of what's being argued (as you noted with VE, they have a large presence). The solo players tend to isolate themselves from each other, and are less likely to piggyback off each other in discussions even if they agree, or if they are friendly. Kena and I are both good friends, but we often work separate on whatever agenda we pursue regardless if it's a common interest.

Outnumbered in game as well as on the forums, that's just the life.

Zheg · May 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

I think the deal is that so many people I play against do just fine against my Radiant. And many people I know, not to mention ZOS, are okay with the skill as is. But you need to come up in here and try and nerf something because you aren't happy with it. The range and damage are fine as is. Templars lack mobility and the channel snares us. It's a fine trade off compared to your Impale range which is an instant execute which belongs to a highly mobile class.

I also didn't accuse you of using the Shuffle/dodge macro. But I know for a fact it is used by some people. I even know someone who has sent in a video showing ZOS exactly how it's done.

I simply speak out that the channel, snare, and all of the other supposed risk / downside to the skill are eliminated when the templar stands at long range except against a few character classes. Reducing the range to ~20m would be a completely acceptable nerf, eliminating a LOT of players' frustrations and maintaining consistent counterplay..

But it really doesn't eliminate the risk. Long range means that you can move away from it. And since it's a channel, I can't keep pace with you. And I know this because I experience this all the time. And when I do use it up close, I often have to Channel > block > channel because I know I'm going to be interrupted. It isn't an instant skill. There is plenty of risk as is given that Templar's have no mobility and the channel snares them.

Your "consistent counter play" is you wanting to take on an outnumbered force and defeat them all. Good on you. But don't come in here whining and asking for a nerf when a Templar's Radiant keeps you from doing that. Use the numerous tools at your disposal to counter Radiant. Joy has given you a nice list.

Furthermore, the game isn't balanced around you 1vXing. Radiant is fine 1v1. And it is fine XvX. Enough said.

Can't run out of range when you're snared by everything under the sun.

And radiant is just as op in siege fights and XvX. Radiant is not balanced for real world situations where people fight people, regardless of numbers, where templars can sit out of the fight and push one button. This is not a new complaint, and I share it with many people. You don't really have room to defend it here...

You have such a warped idea of what Templars do and how Templars play. And that's exactly why I can defend the skill better than you. And if so many people couldn't adapt to Radiant, then where are the tons of threads complaining about it. There aren't. There's just yours now.

They're sitting back reading this thread but avoiding to post because they know its a lost cause. @KenaPKK Abandon ship while you still can, the forumplars cannot be beaten.

Yup. I've been asking around to people who know the game better than these forumplars what they think of radiant and magplars in general, and I've yet to find a single person who hasn't called for a nerf. One said he'd been watching the thread, and that I summoned up every zergling templar in the game. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised..

What happened to that high horse you were trying imply you rode when you responded to Joy? Shifting straight to insults and implying those that disagree with you know nothing about the game? This zergling templar almost never even uses jesus beam, unless I'm solo. This forumplar also seems to know far more about the game than you considering your repeated demonstrations of not knowing how one of the 4 classes works nor its mechanics, especially coming from the NB that took cloak off his bar and wondered why he had trouble with jesus beam. Just because you found a group of ego-heavy gamers all agreeing with each other, that doesn't mean they're right. Ironically enough, I've found they follow herd mentality far more than any 'zerg' because they're afraid to disagree with each other and be labeled a baddie. They live in an echo chamber; in fact, most of the ones I know of are the same ones posting FTC combat recaps of absurd numbers when they die even though there were no where near that many players around. If they can't even count, or estimate a count, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their opinions on damage numbers now does it?

If they/you were right, then we'd be seeing strong arguments for re-balancing with significant evidence, and thus far it's all been utter garbage that's easily shot down. For something SOOO broken, there should be a plethora of clear cut examples of it being broken right? So where are they? Every video and example I've seen has been debunked or explained thus far.

Zheg · May 2016

frozywozy wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

I think the deal is that so many people I play against do just fine against my Radiant. And many people I know, not to mention ZOS, are okay with the skill as is. But you need to come up in here and try and nerf something because you aren't happy with it. The range and damage are fine as is. Templars lack mobility and the channel snares us. It's a fine trade off compared to your Impale range which is an instant execute which belongs to a highly mobile class.

I also didn't accuse you of using the Shuffle/dodge macro. But I know for a fact it is used by some people. I even know someone who has sent in a video showing ZOS exactly how it's done.

I simply speak out that the channel, snare, and all of the other supposed risk / downside to the skill are eliminated when the templar stands at long range except against a few character classes. Reducing the range to ~20m would be a completely acceptable nerf, eliminating a LOT of players' frustrations and maintaining consistent counterplay..

But it really doesn't eliminate the risk. Long range means that you can move away from it. And since it's a channel, I can't keep pace with you. And I know this because I experience this all the time. And when I do use it up close, I often have to Channel > block > channel because I know I'm going to be interrupted. It isn't an instant skill. There is plenty of risk as is given that Templar's have no mobility and the channel snares them.

Your "consistent counter play" is you wanting to take on an outnumbered force and defeat them all. Good on you. But don't come in here whining and asking for a nerf when a Templar's Radiant keeps you from doing that. Use the numerous tools at your disposal to counter Radiant. Joy has given you a nice list.

Furthermore, the game isn't balanced around you 1vXing. Radiant is fine 1v1. And it is fine XvX. Enough said.

Can't run out of range when you're snared by everything under the sun.

And radiant is just as op in siege fights and XvX. Radiant is not balanced for real world situations where people fight people, regardless of numbers, where templars can sit out of the fight and push one button. This is not a new complaint, and I share it with many people. You don't really have room to defend it here...

You have such a warped idea of what Templars do and how Templars play. And that's exactly why I can defend the skill better than you. And if so many people couldn't adapt to Radiant, then where are the tons of threads complaining about it. There aren't. There's just yours now.

They're sitting back reading this thread but avoiding to post because they know its a lost cause. @KenaPKK Abandon ship while you still can, the forumplars cannot be beaten.

Yup. I've been asking around to people who know the game better than these forumplars what they think of radiant and magplars in general, and I've yet to find a single person who hasn't called for a nerf. One said he'd been watching the thread, and that I summoned up every zergling templar in the game. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised..

Kena, you gotta understand that if the VE crew doesn't share your opinion, you will have a very hard time making your point in these forums. This is how it works. You gotta make sure that the VE council analyzed and accepted your opinions before you can talk about them openly and freely without being ridiculed and judged badly. They represent pretty much 75% of the posters in the Alliance War section.

I've seen 2 people from VE arguing against your asinine statements, joy and myself. If you can't handle two templars debunking your BS arguments, maybe your arguments were never sound to begin with.

frozywozy · May 2016

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Having a Templar and maining a Templar are two different things. But regardless, you don't seem to understand the history of Radiant. There was a time when Radiant was dodge able. It was a bug and wasn't intended. But nobody, nobody used it. There was no reason to when anybody and everybody couldn't simply dodge and break the channel. Noone complained about it, too. There was no reason to complain as noone used it. Finally, they fixed it and it became a viable skill. And so would be dodge rollers are upset because we can get some kills on them.

The op has said two things really. He's said that he wants to 1vX. He wants to take on many players at once because he thinks he is a good enough player to kill them all. But he's complaining that X killed him. And wants to blame it on Radiant because he can't dodge that skill. He has also said that he doesn't use Cloak which is a very viable skill to counter Radiant. He could also los, or block, or purge. There are many counters to it.

As for spamming Radiant at full health, there are two reasons that Templars will do this. One is to fish for a killing blow The enemy was going to die anyway, though. And the other reason is when a known player is using the Shuffle/dodge macro. We know who they are. And it's the only way to damage them at all. If they are going to exploit, then we have no problem with spamming multiple Radiants on them.

careful dont be calling out those "pro" 1vx circle jerking friends abusing the f... out of that exploit that like to post videos and congratulate each other how awesome they are!

The third reason is because they're bad. Regardless, in the first and third cases, the skill overperforms.

I never said I want the skill to be dodgeable.

I said the skill needs a shorter range so that it is within gap closer range and can be reacted to properly.

And I'm magicka, so I don't roll much anyway. I also don't use dodge chance on principle. RNG doesn't belong in this game imo. Besides, didn't they say that Shuffle isn't bugged? I've had inconsistent tests. One day, I recorded 15 consecutive dodges. Another time, I recorded 10 consecutive hits as my friend spammed Shuffle + roll.

Are you replying all snippy because I've 1vXed you?

I think the deal is that so many people I play against do just fine against my Radiant. And many people I know, not to mention ZOS, are okay with the skill as is. But you need to come up in here and try and nerf something because you aren't happy with it. The range and damage are fine as is. Templars lack mobility and the channel snares us. It's a fine trade off compared to your Impale range which is an instant execute which belongs to a highly mobile class.

I also didn't accuse you of using the Shuffle/dodge macro. But I know for a fact it is used by some people. I even know someone who has sent in a video showing ZOS exactly how it's done.

I simply speak out that the channel, snare, and all of the other supposed risk / downside to the skill are eliminated when the templar stands at long range except against a few character classes. Reducing the range to ~20m would be a completely acceptable nerf, eliminating a LOT of players' frustrations and maintaining consistent counterplay..

But it really doesn't eliminate the risk. Long range means that you can move away from it. And since it's a channel, I can't keep pace with you. And I know this because I experience this all the time. And when I do use it up close, I often have to Channel > block > channel because I know I'm going to be interrupted. It isn't an instant skill. There is plenty of risk as is given that Templar's have no mobility and the channel snares them.

Your "consistent counter play" is you wanting to take on an outnumbered force and defeat them all. Good on you. But don't come in here whining and asking for a nerf when a Templar's Radiant keeps you from doing that. Use the numerous tools at your disposal to counter Radiant. Joy has given you a nice list.

Furthermore, the game isn't balanced around you 1vXing. Radiant is fine 1v1. And it is fine XvX. Enough said.

Can't run out of range when you're snared by everything under the sun.

And radiant is just as op in siege fights and XvX. Radiant is not balanced for real world situations where people fight people, regardless of numbers, where templars can sit out of the fight and push one button. This is not a new complaint, and I share it with many people. You don't really have room to defend it here...

You have such a warped idea of what Templars do and how Templars play. And that's exactly why I can defend the skill better than you. And if so many people couldn't adapt to Radiant, then where are the tons of threads complaining about it. There aren't. There's just yours now.

They're sitting back reading this thread but avoiding to post because they know its a lost cause. @KenaPKK Abandon ship while you still can, the forumplars cannot be beaten.

Yup. I've been asking around to people who know the game better than these forumplars what they think of radiant and magplars in general, and I've yet to find a single person who hasn't called for a nerf. One said he'd been watching the thread, and that I summoned up every zergling templar in the game. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised..

Kena, you gotta understand that if the VE crew doesn't share your opinion, you will have a very hard time making your point in these forums. This is how it works. You gotta make sure that the VE council analyzed and accepted your opinions before you can talk about them openly and freely without being ridiculed and judged badly. They represent pretty much 75% of the posters in the Alliance War section.

I've seen 2 people from VE arguing against your asinine statements, joy and myself. If you can't handle two templars debunking your BS arguments, maybe your arguments were never sound to begin with.

I wasn't reffering to any thread in particular or wasn't making an observation to the amount total of VE members involved in a thread. I was reffering to the overall activity, involvement and presence they have in general in every conversation. pretty much equivalent to 75%+ which is obviously not representative of the player pool.