Incap Strike

Ragnaroek93 · May 2016

I play both, a Stamblade and a Manasorc. And my Manasorc outperforms my Nightblade in every way. I have tried out duels against Nightblades who use Clever Alchemist with 5k weapon dmg and there is no way in hell they can break my shields and I did not even use mines lol. Only way I can die is if I run out of stamina which only happens if I fight without potions. The best part is, that I'm totally new on the Sorc class and still can perform so well against Stamblades.

Erondil wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback! Just a heads up that we’re continuing to keep an eye on the effectiveness of this ability, and Death Stroke in general. 50 ultimate is definitely a fantastic deal for the burst potential this ability affords. We will continue to evaluate Death Stroke's strength during this testing cycle.

While you're at, make sure you evaluate the damage potential of overload, dark flare, and radiant destruction.

Dark flare is 1.3 sec interuptable cast, how it get here? Why you also didn't mention snipe which deals same damage and have less cast time?

What's that stupid excuse that magicka sorcs, and Templars like to give? Oh yes, "but it's all we have for DPS! So it's balanced".

Btw dark flare does more damage since it empowers itself. It's like a long distance wrecking blow that debuffs. Wait a minute! Grants empowered, causes major defile? These buffs and debuffs sound strangely familiar...

So, guy who did run uninterrutable WB now complains about not so awesome dark flare which is interuptable, from stamina PoV easily avoidable (because of it's long travel time, obvious and loud sound) also have insane from PvP perspective 1.3 second cast duration.

Stop arguing with this guy, he hasnt undertand yet why skills with a long travel time and/or a cast time aren't that good in PvP, all he is interested in is looking at the numbers in his death recap without thinking about all the ways and time he had to counter it.

And you can't understand basic math. Are you not aware that you can spam these "skills with a long travel time" more than I can dodge roll? Eventually one of us is going to run out of resources, and it isn't going to be the magicka user.

Oh yes please tell me more about how you cant manage to counter (hit: there is not only dodgeroll) long enough to close the gap between somebody "spamming" Darkflare or Overload and you. Because either ways if you're not too much outnumbered once you're in melee range they are easy targets and wont damage you. Sounds like a l2p issue to me.

Dying from incapacitating strike? Sounds like a L2P issue to me. Git gud

Thanks for showing what you're down to when your only argument (there are skills hitting harder) is denied. I don't claim to be the best but after 47 ranks earned for a big part in solo/small groups I think I know my bit when it comes to PvP. You can always check my YT and make your own opinion on this if you wish.

I see so if I echo your words then it's a poor display of character? I'm seeing a pattern here.

It's okay, I'm sure you're quite successful on YT, but it was an unnecessary comment that's
that adds nothing to your argument.

Not really because I still have all my arguments, when you have none and say that dying to incap strike in its pts form (which you've probably never seen the power as you seem to be a console player) is a l2p "git gud" issue without further explanation. I gave mines for darkflare and overload And my yt doesnt add anything to my arguments, but I dont like when people tell me to "git gud" without any valuable reason.

Right now on live it does no more damage than my surprise attack. Now we can finally hit as hard as you can, and you cry OP. Selfishness! How about this for balance, let's make the passive Executioner the equivalent of magicka flood, where slotting an assassination ability increases our max stamina by 8%. Let me guess, that would be OP because it's something magicka has as well.

You should really go back and read again what I wrote a few pages before (and over many posts). I did my best to explain why current cp scaling is balanced for deathstroke and why its OP as it is on PTS, I just can not be arsed anymore repeating the same damn thing to people either with an agenda, either with little comprehension of their class and overall PvP combat mechanics. But well the simple fact that this ultimate was a strength of stamina NB compared to other stamina classes (except DK) should tell you why a 25% (and 35%+ on crits) damage increase is totally not balanced.

So having an ultimate that hits harder than a normal ability isn't balanced. I'm sorry, but you and I are simply not going to agree on this issue. You do realize that a magicka Nightblade has stronger healing, and better resource management than stamina. I think it's more than fair that stamina can do equal (or slightly stronger) damage output.

So you still didnt read the rest. And in no way magicka nb has strong raw healing, their main strength atm is healing ward (that is not a pure heal) but with boneshield stamina gonna be on even grounds on this part. Vigor+rally are much better as pure selfheals than magicka tools. And they already can do nearly equal damage output. Proxy nerf and assassins scourge/killers blade change were enough to give them more single target damage than magicka.

You forgot the part there Manabuilds get a shield against Stambuilds too.
And yes, if you use dualwield on a Manablade you won't deal as much dmg with a heavy attack as a Stamblade. Is this a reason that Stambuilds deserve weaker ultimates? In my opinion it's not because you can still go destro staff (which can be incredible strong on Manablades) or just use another attack than a heavy attack before using ult. You have more burst with dualwield at the cost of weaker light and heavy attacks. But you are using it, so it's still worth the tradeoff in your opinion.
Please just specc to stamina and fight good Dks, Manasorcs and also some good Templars and you will see the issues Stamblade has. I'm not saying that you can't make a Stamblade build working, but it's a lot harder to perform well than with most other classes since you don't have much burst, aren't tanky and don't have much aoe. Who cares about constant dps if I can easily outshield/heal it?

Actually I do agree, that Incap might be too strong and I would be fine with a nerf, if people would stop crying about the other things Stamblade will get. Player 1 cries about Incap. Player 2 goes full mimimi because Dawnbreaker of Smiting is going to be Staminamorph and says that only Flawless Dawnbreaker should be the Staminamorph, which is definitely the weaker ultimate in PvP and is ignoring the fact that all other ultimates are still manabased (bats, meteor, soul assault, ...). Player 3 says that Boneshield will bury Manabuilds while ignoring again the fact that Manabuilds get a shield too. I'm still wondering why there is no ASSASSINS WILL POISON MORPH OP OMFG ZENIMAX NERF ASAP OR I WILL QUIT thread yet. Really looking forward for the people who will complain about Stamsorcs if they get finally buffed one day. And the worst part is, that many of this people who are complaining about Stambuffs are abusing vicious death (buggy set) + deto since weeks right now and NEVER complained about this.

And now we noticed that the person who got hit by an empowered Incap 16k crit uses light armor with zero impen we can go back to reality. Dawnbreaker crit will hit for around the same amount on light armor with no impen on it (a tip: It's not forbidden to use impen as a sorc). And I think the extra defense you get with new annulment will be stronger than the dmg increase from this ultimates. The only difference will be, that Incap proccs Major Defile which you can purge anyways. But as I said, just nerf Incap, as long as you give Stambuilds the other buffs I'm fine with it.

Lava_Croft · May 2016

I think this is a /thread with people claiming Stamina Nightblades have trouble with sustain. No use talking to people who clearly don't really know how their class works.

kadar · May 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I guess it's just a coincidence that every single 'real' Nightblade, namely one that has played a Nightblade since the release of ESO, seems to agree that Incapacitating Strike in its current form on the PTS is overpowered.

This includes people who have been playing a Stamina Nightblade since March 2014.

I did all three beta tests for PC. So much for that claim.

My claim still stands, I don't know you.

His point is, it's silly to claim that all NBs who have played since Beta think Incap should be nerfed. There's more of us than you think.

Lava_Croft · May 2016

The_Outsider wrote: »

His point is, it's silly to claim that all NBs who have played since Beta think Incap should be nerfed. There's more of us than you think.

I forgot to add the 'that I know'. Oh well, reading through the thread it's pretty clear that a lot of people have no clue about their class and how to play it and how it is to play against it, no matter if they've pretended to be a Nightblade for over two years.

kadar · May 2016

I forgot to add the 'that I know'. Oh well, reading through the thread it's pretty clear that a lot of people clearly have no clue about their class and how to play it, no matter if they played it for over two years.

Ah. Gotcha.
I've noticed a general lack of rebuttals to the legitimate comments containing facts and logic, and an overabundance of rebuttals to Memes, sarcasm, and derailment. I wish that the people who "have a clue" would reply with more data, fact, and logic and less insta-win argument invalidation tactics. "I've played longer than you, so my opinion invalidates your points."

To restate: legitimate comments that are on topic and relevant go unanswered and are buried by the steady stream of comments that are...not.

Oh wells, that's the forums for ya I suppose.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think this is a /thread with people claiming Stamina Nightblades have trouble with sustain. No use talking to people who clearly don't really know how their class works.

No...One guy is talking about Stamina's sustain potential vs. Magicka. Which is silly on a thread about Incap Strike.

Attackopsn · May 2016

The_Outsider wrote: »

I forgot to add the 'that I know'. Oh well, reading through the thread it's pretty clear that a lot of people clearly have no clue about their class and how to play it, no matter if they played it for over two years.

Ah. Gotcha.
I've noticed a general lack of rebuttals to the legitimate comments containing facts and logic, and an overabundance of rebuttals to Memes, sarcasm, and derailment. I wish that the people who "have a clue" would reply with more data, fact, and logic and less insta-win argument invalidation tactics. "I've played longer than you, so my opinion invalidates your points."

To restate: legitimate comments that are on topic and relevant go unanswered and are buried by the steady stream of comments that are...not.

Oh wells, that's the forums for ya I suppose.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I think this is a /thread with people claiming Stamina Nightblades have trouble with sustain. No use talking to people who clearly don't really know how their class works.

No...One guy is talking about Stamina's sustain potential vs. Magicka. Which is silly on a thread about Incap Strike.

Just off topic sweetheart, considering it was also in response to an actual question. But if we want to talk hard numbers, I'm passionate about that. Keep in mind, seemingly off-topic details may have been included in the past to provide possible explanations for differences in ultimate strength, and don't require unhelpful responses reinforced by irrelevant time-related credentials

kadar · May 2016

Just off topic sweetheart, considering it was also in response to an actual question. But if we want to talk hard numbers, I'm passionate about that. Keep in mind, seemingly off-topic details may have been included in the past to provide possible explanations for differences in ultimate strength, and don't require unhelpful responses reinforced by irrelevant time-related credentials

Mhmm, you didn't bring it up, I realize you were answering a question someone else posed.

The_Outsider wrote: »

I wasn't blocking, that's for sure. My physical resistance is always around 10K (light armor), and my CP passive to reduce physical damage is around 11%, as is my passive to reduce critical damage. I wasn't wearing any Impenetrable.

Once again, how is a 16k critical hit (cause by an Ultimate)(buffed by Empower) against a player in 7/7 Light Armor with Zero Impen and 11% in Hardy a problem?

If the NB offender is running a high-regen build, sure that's hefty damage, but until that player comes forward we won't know.

Attackopsn · May 2016

Let's begin by getting back on topic, Incapacitating Strike!
Cost: 50, Range: 5m, Single Target
Deals x damage
stuns target for 6 seconds
Increases Damage against afflicted target by 20%
Applies Major Defile (30% Healing Debuff)
Passively, this ability increases critical, and restores magicka when a target is killed with it, values listed in Assassination Skill Line
When discussing this and comparing it to other class ultimates, not only should we consider all of these benefits, but all other aspects of a class and its available ultimates that may account for the obvious excess utility provided by this ultimate.

I would like to begin by comparing this to Standard of Might, and Overload, which I believe are the the other two strongest class based ultimates also sharing similar properties (damage values, buffs and debuffs).

Standard of Might
Cost: 250, Range 8m, AoE
Deals x damage over 17 seconds
Applies Major Defile to all targets within its radius
All Targets within radius take 20% increased damage from all sources
Reduces Any Damage received by 20% while within the standard
Has an available synergy that immobilizes all enemies in range
Passively, any burning effect applied to targets affected will be increased by
66%, in addition to receiving a 30% snare, and damage may be affected by Searing Heat/World in Flame (Needs Confirmation) totalling to 9% more overall DoT damage

Overload
Cost: 64, Range: 28-36m (depends on user location) Single Target
Deals x Damage to target (comparable to Death Stroke)
Adds a third bar and access to use of a third ultimate (yes, sorcerers can have three ultimates)
Can be charged up to be casted an excessive amount of times, utilizing up to 1000 ultimate and does not completely deplete user ultimate when toggled
Restores Magicka on successful hits
Passively has a 6% chance to deal an additional x damage when afflicted target is at low health, damage is comparable to surprise attack (Proc cannot crit? Needs confirmation)

As you can see, different ultimates seem more useful in different situations, Death Stroke being an incredibly useful single-target burst ultimate, Standard destroying it in AoE and even certain single target encounters, Overload taking the cake for being an amazing utility bar and providing some of the best ranged single target sustained and burst dps in the game

Each of these has their niche, Death Stroke is definitely more efficient in one on one combat and gank situations because that is what it was made to do, just because you are a "1v1er" or you got "ganked" doesn't mean it is the most OP thing in the game, which it clearly isn't, in fact, any of these ultimates could be described as "the most OP thing in the game" depending on the situation

This ultimate just has the edge 1v1, and just because you got your ego hurt doesn't justify ridiculous posts seen daily on these forums

@Wrobel please consider everything when reviewing abilities, I do believe that you are heading in the right direction this update (the best balance patch in a year by far!!), don't let these kinds of posts mislead you

Consider all of these factors when posting constructive feedback in this post, and avoid posting ignorant/unhelpful responses

Attackopsn · May 2016

Balance doesn't necessarily mean homogenization of playstyles and abilities.

Strider_Roshin · May 2016

Attackopsn wrote: »

Let's begin by getting back on topic, Incapacitating Strike!
Cost: 50, Range: 5m, Single Target
Deals x damage
stuns target for 6 seconds
Increases Damage against afflicted target by 20%
Applies Major Defile (30% Healing Debuff)
Passively, this ability increases critical, and restores magicka when a target is killed with it, values listed in Assassination Skill Line
When discussing this and comparing it to other class ultimates, not only should we consider all of these benefits, but all other aspects of a class and its available ultimates that may account for the obvious excess utility provided by this ultimate.

I would like to begin by comparing this to Standard of Might, and Overload, which I believe are the the other two strongest class based ultimates also sharing similar properties (damage values, buffs and debuffs).

Standard of Might
Cost: 250, Range 8m, AoE
Deals x damage over 17 seconds
Applies Major Defile to all targets within its radius
All Targets within radius take 20% increased damage from all sources
Reduces Any Damage received by 20% while within the standard
Has an available synergy that immobilizes all enemies in range
Passively, any burning effect applied to targets affected will be increased by
66%, in addition to receiving a 30% snare, and damage may be affected by Searing Heat/World in Flame (Needs Confirmation) totalling to 9% more overall DoT damage

Overload
Cost: 64, Range: 28-36m (depends on user location) Single Target
Deals x Damage to target (comparable to Death Stroke)
Adds a third bar and access to use of a third ultimate (yes, sorcerers can have three ultimates)
Can be charged up to be casted an excessive amount of times, utilizing up to 1000 ultimate and does not completely deplete user ultimate when toggled
Restores Magicka on successful hits
Passively has a 6% chance to deal an additional x damage when afflicted target is at low health, damage is comparable to surprise attack (Proc cannot crit? Needs confirmation)

As you can see, different ultimates seem more useful in different situations, Death Stroke being an incredibly useful single-target burst ultimate, Standard destroying it in AoE and even certain single target encounters, Overload taking the cake for being an amazing utility bar and providing some of the best ranged single target sustained and burst dps in the game

Each of these has their niche, Death Stroke is definitely more efficient in one on one combat and gank situations because that is what it was made to do, just because you are a "1v1er" or you got "ganked" doesn't mean it is the most OP thing in the game, which it clearly isn't, in fact, any of these ultimates could be described as "the most OP thing in the game" depending on the situation

This ultimate just has the edge 1v1, and just because you got your ego hurt doesn't justify ridiculous posts seen daily on these forums

@Wrobel please consider everything when reviewing abilities, I do believe that you are heading in the right direction this update (the best balance patch in a year by far!!), don't let these kinds of posts mislead you

Consider all of these factors when posting constructive feedback in this post, and avoid posting ignorant/unhelpful responses

Thank you for accomplishing more than what I can do at red lights lol. Great comparative analysis.

TheBull · May 2016

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback! Just a heads up that we’re continuing to keep an eye on the effectiveness of this ability, and Death Stroke in general. 50 ultimate is definitely a fantastic deal for the burst potential this ability affords. We will continue to evaluate Death Stroke's strength during this testing cycle.

This guy...

FENGRUSH · May 2016

Attackopsn wrote: »

Let's begin by getting back on topic, Incapacitating Strike!
Cost: 50, Range: 5m, Single Target
Deals x damage
stuns target for 6 seconds
Increases Damage against afflicted target by 20%
Applies Major Defile (30% Healing Debuff)
Passively, this ability increases critical, and restores magicka when a target is killed with it, values listed in Assassination Skill Line
When discussing this and comparing it to other class ultimates, not only should we consider all of these benefits, but all other aspects of a class and its available ultimates that may account for the obvious excess utility provided by this ultimate.

I would like to begin by comparing this to Standard of Might, and Overload, which I believe are the the other two strongest class based ultimates also sharing similar properties (damage values, buffs and debuffs).

Standard of Might
Cost: 250, Range 8m, AoE
Deals x damage over 17 seconds
Applies Major Defile to all targets within its radius
All Targets within radius take 20% increased damage from all sources
Reduces Any Damage received by 20% while within the standard
Has an available synergy that immobilizes all enemies in range
Passively, any burning effect applied to targets affected will be increased by
66%, in addition to receiving a 30% snare, and damage may be affected by Searing Heat/World in Flame (Needs Confirmation) totalling to 9% more overall DoT damage

Overload
Cost: 64, Range: 28-36m (depends on user location) Single Target
Deals x Damage to target (comparable to Death Stroke)
Adds a third bar and access to use of a third ultimate (yes, sorcerers can have three ultimates)
Can be charged up to be casted an excessive amount of times, utilizing up to 1000 ultimate and does not completely deplete user ultimate when toggled
Restores Magicka on successful hits
Passively has a 6% chance to deal an additional x damage when afflicted target is at low health, damage is comparable to surprise attack (Proc cannot crit? Needs confirmation)

As you can see, different ultimates seem more useful in different situations, Death Stroke being an incredibly useful single-target burst ultimate, Standard destroying it in AoE and even certain single target encounters, Overload taking the cake for being an amazing utility bar and providing some of the best ranged single target sustained and burst dps in the game

Each of these has their niche, Death Stroke is definitely more efficient in one on one combat and gank situations because that is what it was made to do, just because you are a "1v1er" or you got "ganked" doesn't mean it is the most OP thing in the game, which it clearly isn't, in fact, any of these ultimates could be described as "the most OP thing in the game" depending on the situation

This ultimate just has the edge 1v1, and just because you got your ego hurt doesn't justify ridiculous posts seen daily on these forums

@Wrobel please consider everything when reviewing abilities, I do believe that you are heading in the right direction this update (the best balance patch in a year by far!!), don't let these kinds of posts mislead you

Consider all of these factors when posting constructive feedback in this post, and avoid posting ignorant/unhelpful responses

Overload doesn't give you 3 Ults. Doesn't scale with stam either. None of them do. Consider that when comparing and weighing.

Attackopsn · May 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Attackopsn wrote: »

Let's begin by getting back on topic, Incapacitating Strike!
Cost: 50, Range: 5m, Single Target
Deals x damage
stuns target for 6 seconds
Increases Damage against afflicted target by 20%
Applies Major Defile (30% Healing Debuff)
Passively, this ability increases critical, and restores magicka when a target is killed with it, values listed in Assassination Skill Line
When discussing this and comparing it to other class ultimates, not only should we consider all of these benefits, but all other aspects of a class and its available ultimates that may account for the obvious excess utility provided by this ultimate.

I would like to begin by comparing this to Standard of Might, and Overload, which I believe are the the other two strongest class based ultimates also sharing similar properties (damage values, buffs and debuffs).

Standard of Might
Cost: 250, Range 8m, AoE
Deals x damage over 17 seconds
Applies Major Defile to all targets within its radius
All Targets within radius take 20% increased damage from all sources
Reduces Any Damage received by 20% while within the standard
Has an available synergy that immobilizes all enemies in range
Passively, any burning effect applied to targets affected will be increased by
66%, in addition to receiving a 30% snare, and damage may be affected by Searing Heat/World in Flame (Needs Confirmation) totalling to 9% more overall DoT damage

Overload
Cost: 64, Range: 28-36m (depends on user location) Single Target
Deals x Damage to target (comparable to Death Stroke)
Adds a third bar and access to use of a third ultimate (yes, sorcerers can have three ultimates)
Can be charged up to be casted an excessive amount of times, utilizing up to 1000 ultimate and does not completely deplete user ultimate when toggled
Restores Magicka on successful hits
Passively has a 6% chance to deal an additional x damage when afflicted target is at low health, damage is comparable to surprise attack (Proc cannot crit? Needs confirmation)

As you can see, different ultimates seem more useful in different situations, Death Stroke being an incredibly useful single-target burst ultimate, Standard destroying it in AoE and even certain single target encounters, Overload taking the cake for being an amazing utility bar and providing some of the best ranged single target sustained and burst dps in the game

Each of these has their niche, Death Stroke is definitely more efficient in one on one combat and gank situations because that is what it was made to do, just because you are a "1v1er" or you got "ganked" doesn't mean it is the most OP thing in the game, which it clearly isn't, in fact, any of these ultimates could be described as "the most OP thing in the game" depending on the situation

This ultimate just has the edge 1v1, and just because you got your ego hurt doesn't justify ridiculous posts seen daily on these forums

@Wrobel please consider everything when reviewing abilities, I do believe that you are heading in the right direction this update (the best balance patch in a year by far!!), don't let these kinds of posts mislead you

Consider all of these factors when posting constructive feedback in this post, and avoid posting ignorant/unhelpful responses

Overload doesn't give you 3 Ults. Doesn't scale with stam either. None of them do. Consider that when comparing and weighing.

I will not disagree that stamina morphs for sorcerers are extremely underwhelming, or non-existant, but to use three ultimates, you simply place your ultimate on your overload bar and place an ability of the the weapon line active where overload is slotted to exit. I have been able to do this since 1.6.
@FENGRUSH , I might be able to upload a video of how to do it later for reference in case it interests you

Vangy · May 2016

Attackopsn wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Attackopsn wrote: »

Let's begin by getting back on topic, Incapacitating Strike!
Cost: 50, Range: 5m, Single Target
Deals x damage
stuns target for 6 seconds
Increases Damage against afflicted target by 20%
Applies Major Defile (30% Healing Debuff)
Passively, this ability increases critical, and restores magicka when a target is killed with it, values listed in Assassination Skill Line
When discussing this and comparing it to other class ultimates, not only should we consider all of these benefits, but all other aspects of a class and its available ultimates that may account for the obvious excess utility provided by this ultimate.

I would like to begin by comparing this to Standard of Might, and Overload, which I believe are the the other two strongest class based ultimates also sharing similar properties (damage values, buffs and debuffs).

Standard of Might
Cost: 250, Range 8m, AoE
Deals x damage over 17 seconds
Applies Major Defile to all targets within its radius
All Targets within radius take 20% increased damage from all sources
Reduces Any Damage received by 20% while within the standard
Has an available synergy that immobilizes all enemies in range
Passively, any burning effect applied to targets affected will be increased by
66%, in addition to receiving a 30% snare, and damage may be affected by Searing Heat/World in Flame (Needs Confirmation) totalling to 9% more overall DoT damage

Overload
Cost: 64, Range: 28-36m (depends on user location) Single Target
Deals x Damage to target (comparable to Death Stroke)
Adds a third bar and access to use of a third ultimate (yes, sorcerers can have three ultimates)
Can be charged up to be casted an excessive amount of times, utilizing up to 1000 ultimate and does not completely deplete user ultimate when toggled
Restores Magicka on successful hits
Passively has a 6% chance to deal an additional x damage when afflicted target is at low health, damage is comparable to surprise attack (Proc cannot crit? Needs confirmation)

As you can see, different ultimates seem more useful in different situations, Death Stroke being an incredibly useful single-target burst ultimate, Standard destroying it in AoE and even certain single target encounters, Overload taking the cake for being an amazing utility bar and providing some of the best ranged single target sustained and burst dps in the game

Each of these has their niche, Death Stroke is definitely more efficient in one on one combat and gank situations because that is what it was made to do, just because you are a "1v1er" or you got "ganked" doesn't mean it is the most OP thing in the game, which it clearly isn't, in fact, any of these ultimates could be described as "the most OP thing in the game" depending on the situation

This ultimate just has the edge 1v1, and just because you got your ego hurt doesn't justify ridiculous posts seen daily on these forums

@Wrobel please consider everything when reviewing abilities, I do believe that you are heading in the right direction this update (the best balance patch in a year by far!!), don't let these kinds of posts mislead you

Consider all of these factors when posting constructive feedback in this post, and avoid posting ignorant/unhelpful responses

Overload doesn't give you 3 Ults. Doesn't scale with stam either. None of them do. Consider that when comparing and weighing.

I will not disagree that stamina morphs for sorcerers are extremely underwhelming, or non-existant, but to use three ultimates, you simply place your ultimate on your overload bar and place an ability of the the weapon line active where overload is slotted to exit. I have been able to do this since 1.6.
@FENGRUSH , I might be able to upload a video of how to do it later for reference in case it interests you

Wait whut? I did not know this... Guess you learn something new everyday..

Lava_Croft · May 2016

The_Outsider wrote: »

I forgot to add the 'that I know'. Oh well, reading through the thread it's pretty clear that a lot of people clearly have no clue about their class and how to play it, no matter if they played it for over two years.

Ah. Gotcha.
I've noticed a general lack of rebuttals to the legitimate comments containing facts and logic, and an overabundance of rebuttals to Memes, sarcasm, and derailment. I wish that the people who "have a clue" would reply with more data, fact, and logic and less insta-win argument invalidation tactics. "I've played longer than you, so my opinion invalidates your points."

Reading through the thread, you wonder how many times people have to explain and repeat their valid concerns, only to be met with at the least some form of ridicule and most certainly a lack of understanding about how a Nightblade plays and how it is to play against a Nightblade when it comes to Incapacitating Strike. There have barely been any valid cases made in favor of Incapacitating Strike in its current form on the PTS, so far it's mostly about bad comparisons to other skills of which the constant comparisons to Overload are the cherry on the cake.

Vangy · May 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

I forgot to add the 'that I know'. Oh well, reading through the thread it's pretty clear that a lot of people clearly have no clue about their class and how to play it, no matter if they played it for over two years.

Ah. Gotcha.
I've noticed a general lack of rebuttals to the legitimate comments containing facts and logic, and an overabundance of rebuttals to Memes, sarcasm, and derailment. I wish that the people who "have a clue" would reply with more data, fact, and logic and less insta-win argument invalidation tactics. "I've played longer than you, so my opinion invalidates your points."

Reading through the thread, you wonder how many times people have to explain and repeat their valid concerns, only to be met with at the least some form of ridicule and most certainly a lack of understanding about how a Nightblade plays and how it is to play against a Nightblade when it comes to Incapacitating Strike. There have barely been any valid cases made in favor of Incapacitating Strike in its current form on the PTS, so far it's mostly about bad comparisons to other skills of which the constant comparisons to Overload are the cherry on the cake.

Quick question tho, why do people think Incap is OP? The only shred of evidence I see is that earlier pic posted by someone which showed a 7k+ ambush and a 16k+ incap strike... Ive never gotten hit by a 7k+ ambush in my life..... On average ambush hits me for 4k-4.5k... That means that the incap would have hit me for around 10k from stealth and with empower... How is that OP? Sorry just a little confused as to what people are basing this on. On PTS I have no problems with incap... Just about as annoying as the average DK leap or the wb spammer -_-"

Jaronking · May 2016

Vangy wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

I forgot to add the 'that I know'. Oh well, reading through the thread it's pretty clear that a lot of people clearly have no clue about their class and how to play it, no matter if they played it for over two years.

Ah. Gotcha.
I've noticed a general lack of rebuttals to the legitimate comments containing facts and logic, and an overabundance of rebuttals to Memes, sarcasm, and derailment. I wish that the people who "have a clue" would reply with more data, fact, and logic and less insta-win argument invalidation tactics. "I've played longer than you, so my opinion invalidates your points."

Reading through the thread, you wonder how many times people have to explain and repeat their valid concerns, only to be met with at the least some form of ridicule and most certainly a lack of understanding about how a Nightblade plays and how it is to play against a Nightblade when it comes to Incapacitating Strike. There have barely been any valid cases made in favor of Incapacitating Strike in its current form on the PTS, so far it's mostly about bad comparisons to other skills of which the constant comparisons to Overload are the cherry on the cake.

Quick question tho, why do people think Incap is OP? The only shred of evidence I see is that earlier pic posted by someone which showed a 7k+ ambush and a 16k+ incap strike... Ive never gotten hit by a 7k+ ambush in my life..... On average ambush hits me for 4k-4.5k... That means that the incap would have hit me for around 10k from stealth and with empower... How is that OP? Sorry just a little confused as to what people are basing this on. On PTS I have no problems with incap... Just about as annoying as the average DK leap or the wb spammer -_-"

You also have to remember that this is the person setup in PVP.

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

oibam wrote: »

It is a single target ulti, so dmg has to be high.

Hahaha... that was MY screenshot! I'll forever be known as the First Chump To Get Ganked By Incapacitating Strike

You wouldn't happen to have your defensive stats from the time that SS was taken? So we can get some clarity on how hard it actually hits?

I wasn't blocking, that's for sure. My physical resistance is always around 10K (light armor), and my CP passive to reduce physical damage is around 11%, as is my passive to reduce critical damage. I wasn't wearing any Impenetrable.

So unless you are a total Noob in PVP and don't know what gear to wear that's the only way to be hit by this.Plus if your a light armor sorc going full magica build with you shields down.You will get hit by this which is only your fault.

Vangy · May 2016

Jaronking wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

I forgot to add the 'that I know'. Oh well, reading through the thread it's pretty clear that a lot of people clearly have no clue about their class and how to play it, no matter if they played it for over two years.

Ah. Gotcha.
I've noticed a general lack of rebuttals to the legitimate comments containing facts and logic, and an overabundance of rebuttals to Memes, sarcasm, and derailment. I wish that the people who "have a clue" would reply with more data, fact, and logic and less insta-win argument invalidation tactics. "I've played longer than you, so my opinion invalidates your points."

Reading through the thread, you wonder how many times people have to explain and repeat their valid concerns, only to be met with at the least some form of ridicule and most certainly a lack of understanding about how a Nightblade plays and how it is to play against a Nightblade when it comes to Incapacitating Strike. There have barely been any valid cases made in favor of Incapacitating Strike in its current form on the PTS, so far it's mostly about bad comparisons to other skills of which the constant comparisons to Overload are the cherry on the cake.

Quick question tho, why do people think Incap is OP? The only shred of evidence I see is that earlier pic posted by someone which showed a 7k+ ambush and a 16k+ incap strike... Ive never gotten hit by a 7k+ ambush in my life..... On average ambush hits me for 4k-4.5k... That means that the incap would have hit me for around 10k from stealth and with empower... How is that OP? Sorry just a little confused as to what people are basing this on. On PTS I have no problems with incap... Just about as annoying as the average DK leap or the wb spammer -_-"

You also have to remember that this is the person setup in PVP.

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

oibam wrote: »

It is a single target ulti, so dmg has to be high.

Hahaha... that was MY screenshot! I'll forever be known as the First Chump To Get Ganked By Incapacitating Strike

You wouldn't happen to have your defensive stats from the time that SS was taken? So we can get some clarity on how hard it actually hits?

I wasn't blocking, that's for sure. My physical resistance is always around 10K (light armor), and my CP passive to reduce physical damage is around 11%, as is my passive to reduce critical damage. I wasn't wearing any Impenetrable.

So unless you are a total Noob in PVP and don't know what gear to wear that's the only way to be hit by this.Plus if your a light armor sorc going full magica build with you shields down.You will get hit by this which is only your fault.

AHH. This explains a lot lol. Holy crap 10k phy resist and only 11% in phy damage reduction. WITH NO IMPEN. GG. PvE carebear running around cyro... I think I can hit 15-20k wbs on that kind of set ups lol. Granted I have 501 CP but still. hahaha.

Attackopsn · May 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

I forgot to add the 'that I know'. Oh well, reading through the thread it's pretty clear that a lot of people clearly have no clue about their class and how to play it, no matter if they played it for over two years.

Ah. Gotcha.
I've noticed a general lack of rebuttals to the legitimate comments containing facts and logic, and an overabundance of rebuttals to Memes, sarcasm, and derailment. I wish that the people who "have a clue" would reply with more data, fact, and logic and less insta-win argument invalidation tactics. "I've played longer than you, so my opinion invalidates your points."

Reading through the thread, you wonder how many times people have to explain and repeat their valid concerns, only to be met with at the least some form of ridicule and most certainly a lack of understanding about how a Nightblade plays and how it is to play against a Nightblade when it comes to Incapacitating Strike. There have barely been any valid cases made in favor of Incapacitating Strike in its current form on the PTS, so far it's mostly about bad comparisons to other skills of which the constant comparisons to Overload are the cherry on the cake.

Same could be said for the complete lack of evidence shown otherwise by effectively self-proclaimed competent nightblades, would love to hear an actual explanation hun rather than bashing and negativity from every one of your vague responses here. If you are going to insult me you can at least provide a reasonable rebuttal, rather than the tacky unintelligent and completely unfounded statements so far

. If you haven't noticed, overload does very similar damage to incapacitating strike and can be shot many, many times, which is of course, why so many people are comparing overload to death stroke.

Jaronking · May 2016

Vangy wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

I forgot to add the 'that I know'. Oh well, reading through the thread it's pretty clear that a lot of people clearly have no clue about their class and how to play it, no matter if they played it for over two years.

Ah. Gotcha.
I've noticed a general lack of rebuttals to the legitimate comments containing facts and logic, and an overabundance of rebuttals to Memes, sarcasm, and derailment. I wish that the people who "have a clue" would reply with more data, fact, and logic and less insta-win argument invalidation tactics. "I've played longer than you, so my opinion invalidates your points."

Reading through the thread, you wonder how many times people have to explain and repeat their valid concerns, only to be met with at the least some form of ridicule and most certainly a lack of understanding about how a Nightblade plays and how it is to play against a Nightblade when it comes to Incapacitating Strike. There have barely been any valid cases made in favor of Incapacitating Strike in its current form on the PTS, so far it's mostly about bad comparisons to other skills of which the constant comparisons to Overload are the cherry on the cake.

Quick question tho, why do people think Incap is OP? The only shred of evidence I see is that earlier pic posted by someone which showed a 7k+ ambush and a 16k+ incap strike... Ive never gotten hit by a 7k+ ambush in my life..... On average ambush hits me for 4k-4.5k... That means that the incap would have hit me for around 10k from stealth and with empower... How is that OP? Sorry just a little confused as to what people are basing this on. On PTS I have no problems with incap... Just about as annoying as the average DK leap or the wb spammer -_-"

You also have to remember that this is the person setup in PVP.

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

oibam wrote: »

It is a single target ulti, so dmg has to be high.

Hahaha... that was MY screenshot! I'll forever be known as the First Chump To Get Ganked By Incapacitating Strike

You wouldn't happen to have your defensive stats from the time that SS was taken? So we can get some clarity on how hard it actually hits?

I wasn't blocking, that's for sure. My physical resistance is always around 10K (light armor), and my CP passive to reduce physical damage is around 11%, as is my passive to reduce critical damage. I wasn't wearing any Impenetrable.

So unless you are a total Noob in PVP and don't know what gear to wear that's the only way to be hit by this.Plus if your a light armor sorc going full magica build with you shields down.You will get hit by this which is only your fault.

AHH. This explains a lot lol. Holy crap 10k phy resist and only 11% in phy damage reduction. WITH NO IMPEN. GG. PvE carebear running around cyro... I think I can hit 15-20k wbs on that kind of set ups lol. Granted I have 501 CP but still. hahaha.

A lot of people are skipping this detail in their arguments and have to realize to most PVPers this will not hit no where near as hard and only PVers in the Sewers will be hit for that much damage.So personally I see no reason for the ability to be Nerf or the cost increase.

Attackopsn · May 2016

Vangy wrote: »

Attackopsn wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Attackopsn wrote: »

Let's begin by getting back on topic, Incapacitating Strike!
Cost: 50, Range: 5m, Single Target
Deals x damage
stuns target for 6 seconds
Increases Damage against afflicted target by 20%
Applies Major Defile (30% Healing Debuff)
Passively, this ability increases critical, and restores magicka when a target is killed with it, values listed in Assassination Skill Line
When discussing this and comparing it to other class ultimates, not only should we consider all of these benefits, but all other aspects of a class and its available ultimates that may account for the obvious excess utility provided by this ultimate.

I would like to begin by comparing this to Standard of Might, and Overload, which I believe are the the other two strongest class based ultimates also sharing similar properties (damage values, buffs and debuffs).

Standard of Might
Cost: 250, Range 8m, AoE
Deals x damage over 17 seconds
Applies Major Defile to all targets within its radius
All Targets within radius take 20% increased damage from all sources
Reduces Any Damage received by 20% while within the standard
Has an available synergy that immobilizes all enemies in range
Passively, any burning effect applied to targets affected will be increased by
66%, in addition to receiving a 30% snare, and damage may be affected by Searing Heat/World in Flame (Needs Confirmation) totalling to 9% more overall DoT damage

Overload
Cost: 64, Range: 28-36m (depends on user location) Single Target
Deals x Damage to target (comparable to Death Stroke)
Adds a third bar and access to use of a third ultimate (yes, sorcerers can have three ultimates)
Can be charged up to be casted an excessive amount of times, utilizing up to 1000 ultimate and does not completely deplete user ultimate when toggled
Restores Magicka on successful hits
Passively has a 6% chance to deal an additional x damage when afflicted target is at low health, damage is comparable to surprise attack (Proc cannot crit? Needs confirmation)

As you can see, different ultimates seem more useful in different situations, Death Stroke being an incredibly useful single-target burst ultimate, Standard destroying it in AoE and even certain single target encounters, Overload taking the cake for being an amazing utility bar and providing some of the best ranged single target sustained and burst dps in the game

Each of these has their niche, Death Stroke is definitely more efficient in one on one combat and gank situations because that is what it was made to do, just because you are a "1v1er" or you got "ganked" doesn't mean it is the most OP thing in the game, which it clearly isn't, in fact, any of these ultimates could be described as "the most OP thing in the game" depending on the situation

This ultimate just has the edge 1v1, and just because you got your ego hurt doesn't justify ridiculous posts seen daily on these forums

@Wrobel please consider everything when reviewing abilities, I do believe that you are heading in the right direction this update (the best balance patch in a year by far!!), don't let these kinds of posts mislead you

Consider all of these factors when posting constructive feedback in this post, and avoid posting ignorant/unhelpful responses

Overload doesn't give you 3 Ults. Doesn't scale with stam either. None of them do. Consider that when comparing and weighing.

I will not disagree that stamina morphs for sorcerers are extremely underwhelming, or non-existant, but to use three ultimates, you simply place your ultimate on your overload bar and place an ability of the the weapon line active where overload is slotted to exit. I have been able to do this since 1.6.
@FENGRUSH , I might be able to upload a video of how to do it later for reference in case it interests you

Wait whut? I did not know this... Guess you learn something new everyday..

Yes it's a little strange, I'll try to explain it better too just so everyone can test this if you don't believe me.

You start by activating overload, once toggled, you select the ultimate you would like to place on your overload bar. When you place the ultimate on your overload bar, overload will un-toggle, and you will have to re-activate overload to see the changes. You now have a third ultimate slotted on your overload bar, but you cannot exit overload since the toggle button has been covered with a new ultimate. There are two ways you can leave overload after doing this, the first, by simply activating the ultimate on your overload bar. The second is a little trickier, you remember what weapon type was on your bar before activating overload? (I.eDual wield/resto) You have to slot an ability from this skill line on your overload bar, and when activated, it will take you out of overload. You must have the resources to activate the ability however, and you almost must be able to cast/target if necessary to target for cast. This will not actually cast the ability slotted even though it will be highlighted, but instead as stated previously, take you out of overload!

Attackopsn · May 2016

Jaronking wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

I forgot to add the 'that I know'. Oh well, reading through the thread it's pretty clear that a lot of people clearly have no clue about their class and how to play it, no matter if they played it for over two years.

Ah. Gotcha.
I've noticed a general lack of rebuttals to the legitimate comments containing facts and logic, and an overabundance of rebuttals to Memes, sarcasm, and derailment. I wish that the people who "have a clue" would reply with more data, fact, and logic and less insta-win argument invalidation tactics. "I've played longer than you, so my opinion invalidates your points."

Reading through the thread, you wonder how many times people have to explain and repeat their valid concerns, only to be met with at the least some form of ridicule and most certainly a lack of understanding about how a Nightblade plays and how it is to play against a Nightblade when it comes to Incapacitating Strike. There have barely been any valid cases made in favor of Incapacitating Strike in its current form on the PTS, so far it's mostly about bad comparisons to other skills of which the constant comparisons to Overload are the cherry on the cake.

Quick question tho, why do people think Incap is OP? The only shred of evidence I see is that earlier pic posted by someone which showed a 7k+ ambush and a 16k+ incap strike... Ive never gotten hit by a 7k+ ambush in my life..... On average ambush hits me for 4k-4.5k... That means that the incap would have hit me for around 10k from stealth and with empower... How is that OP? Sorry just a little confused as to what people are basing this on. On PTS I have no problems with incap... Just about as annoying as the average DK leap or the wb spammer -_-"

You also have to remember that this is the person setup in PVP.

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

staracino_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

oibam wrote: »

It is a single target ulti, so dmg has to be high.

Hahaha... that was MY screenshot! I'll forever be known as the First Chump To Get Ganked By Incapacitating Strike

You wouldn't happen to have your defensive stats from the time that SS was taken? So we can get some clarity on how hard it actually hits?

I wasn't blocking, that's for sure. My physical resistance is always around 10K (light armor), and my CP passive to reduce physical damage is around 11%, as is my passive to reduce critical damage. I wasn't wearing any Impenetrable.

So unless you are a total Noob in PVP and don't know what gear to wear that's the only way to be hit by this.Plus if your a light armor sorc going full magica build with you shields down.You will get hit by this which is only your fault.

AHH. This explains a lot lol. Holy crap 10k phy resist and only 11% in phy damage reduction. WITH NO IMPEN. GG. PvE carebear running around cyro... I think I can hit 15-20k wbs on that kind of set ups lol. Granted I have 501 CP but still. hahaha.

A lot of people are skipping this detail in their arguments and have to realize to most PVPers this will not hit no where near as hard and only PVers in the Sewers will be hit for that much damage.So personally I see no reason for the ability to be Nerf or the cost increase.

Between impen, and a more reasonable quantity of cp allocated into hardy, you can expect to see this damage drop at least 25%

kadar · May 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

I forgot to add the 'that I know'. Oh well, reading through the thread it's pretty clear that a lot of people clearly have no clue about their class and how to play it, no matter if they played it for over two years.

Ah. Gotcha.
I've noticed a general lack of rebuttals to the legitimate comments containing facts and logic, and an overabundance of rebuttals to Memes, sarcasm, and derailment. I wish that the people who "have a clue" would reply with more data, fact, and logic and less insta-win argument invalidation tactics. "I've played longer than you, so my opinion invalidates your points."

Reading through the thread, you wonder how many times people have to explain and repeat their valid concerns, only to be met with at the least some form of ridicule and most certainly a lack of understanding about how a Nightblade plays and how it is to play against a Nightblade when it comes to Incapacitating Strike. There have barely been any valid cases made in favor of Incapacitating Strike in its current form on the PTS, so far it's mostly about bad comparisons to other skills of which the constant comparisons to Overload are the cherry on the cake.

@Lava_Croft , based on your statements above, you must have an excellent understanding of "how a NB plays and how it is to play against a NB" compared to others here on the forums. I apologize if I missed some earlier comment you made (I can only skim 14 pages so many times, lol). What makes Incap Strike OP on the PTS (which is different from live only in that it does Disease dmg + Stun)? I don't see it, especially based on the screenshot, which is the basis of this thread.

Unless you're thinking the same thing as some others. Cheap Ult + High damage + Heal Debuff = OP?

Quick question tho, why do people think Incap is OP? The only shred of evidence I see is that earlier pic posted by someone which showed a 7k+ ambush and a 16k+ incap strike... Ive never gotten hit by a 7k+ ambush in my life..... On average ambush hits me for 4k-4.5k... That means that the incap would have hit me for around 10k from stealth and with empower... How is that OP? Sorry just a little confused as to what people are basing this on. On PTS I have no problems with incap... Just about as annoying as the average DK leap or the wb spammer -_-"

^Not just me that wonders.

Derra · May 2016

Attackopsn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback! Just a heads up that we’re continuing to keep an eye on the effectiveness of this ability, and Death Stroke in general. 50 ultimate is definitely a fantastic deal for the burst potential this ability affords. We will continue to evaluate Death Stroke's strength during this testing cycle.

While you're at, make sure you evaluate the damage potential of overload, dark flare, and radiant destruction.

Dark flare is 1.3 sec interuptable cast, how it get here? Why you also didn't mention snipe which deals same damage and have less cast time?

What's that stupid excuse that magicka sorcs, and Templars like to give? Oh yes, "but it's all we have for DPS! So it's balanced".

Btw dark flare does more damage since it empowers itself. It's like a long distance wrecking blow that debuffs. Wait a minute! Grants empowered, causes major defile? These buffs and debuffs sound strangely familiar...

So, guy who did run uninterrutable WB now complains about not so awesome dark flare which is interuptable, from stamina PoV easily avoidable (because of it's long travel time, obvious and loud sound) also have insane from PvP perspective 1.3 second cast duration.

Stop arguing with this guy, he hasnt undertand yet why skills with a long travel time and/or a cast time aren't that good in PvP, all he is interested in is looking at the numbers in his death recap without thinking about all the ways and time he had to counter it.

And you can't understand basic math. Are you not aware that you can spam these "skills with a long travel time" more than I can dodge roll? Eventually one of us is going to run out of resources, and it isn't going to be the magicka user.

I´ve tried it against a stamblade. 1000 ultimate overload + immovable/detect potions. It was not much of a struggle to survive the whole time until my ulti was depleted.
1 dodgeroll if timed correctly avoids up to 5 projectiles of overload.

It shines against builds with low reg and magica builds without harness. Other than that it´s an Xv1 ability.

I'm going to debunk this too, a dodge roll definitely, definitely doesn't avoid five whole overloads, you have the invincibility frames for two, maybe three. If you are really still spamming overloads on them after they rolled then you are already in the wrong, /facepalm. A quick cc like streak that ignores these immunities would guarantee you an easy shot too, seriously though, as a sorcerer you should have zero problems killing one nightblade, you are literally their rock-paper-scissors counter.

I said up to - it´s definetly possible. 4 when started from range is actually really easy. The problem is traveltime. A dodgeroll evades all projectiles fired at you already flying and every projectile started while in the animation.
5 should not happen but it can.

Nothing to debunk here. If you can´t defend against overload on a stamblade you´re doing it wrong. I know that bc i happen to also play a stamblade.

Which leads me to the other point: Stamina isn´t any harder to maintain as magica. It´s more race and skillchoice dependant than magica though.
A stamplar with anything but redguard/bosmer will always struggle with resources to some extend. However a redguard stam DK or bosmer/redguard NB are just about the best resource sustain in the game. I can´t come close to the sustain of my redguard NB on anyting magica related in pvp (pve with siphon/ele drain is a different beast) while having compareable dmg output.

So i guess thanks for your elaboration but simply from playing both sides i decide to disagree in just about every point you made.

Also where did you get the impression dodgeroll cancels stamreg? Never happened to me because it´s simply not the case.
Aswell as having to block to execute abilities ccbreak or dodgeroll. The only thing stopping stamina regeneration is: blocking. Also it does not stop the regtick it just puts them on hold. So you don´t loose 2s of reg for blocking 0.1s to animation cancel - you´re loosing that 0.1s.

susmitds · May 2016

Derra wrote: »

Attackopsn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback! Just a heads up that we’re continuing to keep an eye on the effectiveness of this ability, and Death Stroke in general. 50 ultimate is definitely a fantastic deal for the burst potential this ability affords. We will continue to evaluate Death Stroke's strength during this testing cycle.

While you're at, make sure you evaluate the damage potential of overload, dark flare, and radiant destruction.

Dark flare is 1.3 sec interuptable cast, how it get here? Why you also didn't mention snipe which deals same damage and have less cast time?

What's that stupid excuse that magicka sorcs, and Templars like to give? Oh yes, "but it's all we have for DPS! So it's balanced".

Btw dark flare does more damage since it empowers itself. It's like a long distance wrecking blow that debuffs. Wait a minute! Grants empowered, causes major defile? These buffs and debuffs sound strangely familiar...

So, guy who did run uninterrutable WB now complains about not so awesome dark flare which is interuptable, from stamina PoV easily avoidable (because of it's long travel time, obvious and loud sound) also have insane from PvP perspective 1.3 second cast duration.

Stop arguing with this guy, he hasnt undertand yet why skills with a long travel time and/or a cast time aren't that good in PvP, all he is interested in is looking at the numbers in his death recap without thinking about all the ways and time he had to counter it.

And you can't understand basic math. Are you not aware that you can spam these "skills with a long travel time" more than I can dodge roll? Eventually one of us is going to run out of resources, and it isn't going to be the magicka user.

I´ve tried it against a stamblade. 1000 ultimate overload + immovable/detect potions. It was not much of a struggle to survive the whole time until my ulti was depleted.
1 dodgeroll if timed correctly avoids up to 5 projectiles of overload.

It shines against builds with low reg and magica builds without harness. Other than that it´s an Xv1 ability.

I'm going to debunk this too, a dodge roll definitely, definitely doesn't avoid five whole overloads, you have the invincibility frames for two, maybe three. If you are really still spamming overloads on them after they rolled then you are already in the wrong, /facepalm. A quick cc like streak that ignores these immunities would guarantee you an easy shot too, seriously though, as a sorcerer you should have zero problems killing one nightblade, you are literally their rock-paper-scissors counter.

I said up to - it´s definetly possible. 4 when started from range is actually really easy. The problem is traveltime. A dodgeroll evades all projectiles fired at you already flying and every projectile started while in the animation.
5 should not happen but it can.

Nothing to debunk here. If you can´t defend against overload on a stamblade you´re doing it wrong. I know that bc i happen to also play a stamblade.

Which leads me to the other point: Stamina isn´t any harder to maintain as magica. It´s more race and skillchoice dependant than magica though.
A stamplar with anything but redguard/bosmer will always struggle with resources to some extend. However a redguard stam DK or bosmer/redguard NB are just about the best resource sustain in the game. I can´t come close to the sustain of my redguard NB on anyting magica related in pvp (pve with siphon/ele drain is a different beast) while having compareable dmg output.

So i guess thanks for your elaboration but simply from playing both sides i decide to disagree in just about every point you made.

Also where did you get the impression dodgeroll cancels stamreg? Never happened to me because it´s simply not the case.
Aswell as having to block to execute abilities ccbreak or dodgeroll. The only thing stopping stamina regeneration is: blocking. Also it does not stop the regtick it just puts them on hold. So you don´t loose 2s of reg for blocking 0.1s to animation cancel - you´re loosing that 0.1s.

However in PvE, stamina is always at the back end of sustain.

Erondil · May 2016

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I play both, a Stamblade and a Manasorc. And my Manasorc outperforms my Nightblade in every way. I have tried out duels against Nightblades who use Clever Alchemist with 5k weapon dmg and there is no way in hell they can break my shields and I did not even use mines lol. Only way I can die is if I run out of stamina which only happens if I fight without potions. The best part is, that I'm totally new on the Sorc class and still can perform so well against Stamblades.

Erondil wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback! Just a heads up that we’re continuing to keep an eye on the effectiveness of this ability, and Death Stroke in general. 50 ultimate is definitely a fantastic deal for the burst potential this ability affords. We will continue to evaluate Death Stroke's strength during this testing cycle.

While you're at, make sure you evaluate the damage potential of overload, dark flare, and radiant destruction.

Dark flare is 1.3 sec interuptable cast, how it get here? Why you also didn't mention snipe which deals same damage and have less cast time?

What's that stupid excuse that magicka sorcs, and Templars like to give? Oh yes, "but it's all we have for DPS! So it's balanced".

Btw dark flare does more damage since it empowers itself. It's like a long distance wrecking blow that debuffs. Wait a minute! Grants empowered, causes major defile? These buffs and debuffs sound strangely familiar...

So, guy who did run uninterrutable WB now complains about not so awesome dark flare which is interuptable, from stamina PoV easily avoidable (because of it's long travel time, obvious and loud sound) also have insane from PvP perspective 1.3 second cast duration.

Stop arguing with this guy, he hasnt undertand yet why skills with a long travel time and/or a cast time aren't that good in PvP, all he is interested in is looking at the numbers in his death recap without thinking about all the ways and time he had to counter it.

And you can't understand basic math. Are you not aware that you can spam these "skills with a long travel time" more than I can dodge roll? Eventually one of us is going to run out of resources, and it isn't going to be the magicka user.

Oh yes please tell me more about how you cant manage to counter (hit: there is not only dodgeroll) long enough to close the gap between somebody "spamming" Darkflare or Overload and you. Because either ways if you're not too much outnumbered once you're in melee range they are easy targets and wont damage you. Sounds like a l2p issue to me.

Dying from incapacitating strike? Sounds like a L2P issue to me. Git gud

Thanks for showing what you're down to when your only argument (there are skills hitting harder) is denied. I don't claim to be the best but after 47 ranks earned for a big part in solo/small groups I think I know my bit when it comes to PvP. You can always check my YT and make your own opinion on this if you wish.

I see so if I echo your words then it's a poor display of character? I'm seeing a pattern here.

It's okay, I'm sure you're quite successful on YT, but it was an unnecessary comment that's
that adds nothing to your argument.

Not really because I still have all my arguments, when you have none and say that dying to incap strike in its pts form (which you've probably never seen the power as you seem to be a console player) is a l2p "git gud" issue without further explanation. I gave mines for darkflare and overload And my yt doesnt add anything to my arguments, but I dont like when people tell me to "git gud" without any valuable reason.

Right now on live it does no more damage than my surprise attack. Now we can finally hit as hard as you can, and you cry OP. Selfishness! How about this for balance, let's make the passive Executioner the equivalent of magicka flood, where slotting an assassination ability increases our max stamina by 8%. Let me guess, that would be OP because it's something magicka has as well.

You should really go back and read again what I wrote a few pages before (and over many posts). I did my best to explain why current cp scaling is balanced for deathstroke and why its OP as it is on PTS, I just can not be arsed anymore repeating the same damn thing to people either with an agenda, either with little comprehension of their class and overall PvP combat mechanics. But well the simple fact that this ultimate was a strength of stamina NB compared to other stamina classes (except DK) should tell you why a 25% (and 35%+ on crits) damage increase is totally not balanced.

So having an ultimate that hits harder than a normal ability isn't balanced. I'm sorry, but you and I are simply not going to agree on this issue. You do realize that a magicka Nightblade has stronger healing, and better resource management than stamina. I think it's more than fair that stamina can do equal (or slightly stronger) damage output.

So you still didnt read the rest. And in no way magicka nb has strong raw healing, their main strength atm is healing ward (that is not a pure heal) but with boneshield stamina gonna be on even grounds on this part. Vigor+rally are much better as pure selfheals than magicka tools. And they already can do nearly equal damage output. Proxy nerf and assassins scourge/killers blade change were enough to give them more single target damage than magicka.

You forgot the part there Manabuilds get a shield against Stambuilds too.
And yes, if you use dualwield on a Manablade you won't deal as much dmg with a heavy attack as a Stamblade. Is this a reason that Stambuilds deserve weaker ultimates? In my opinion it's not because you can still go destro staff (which can be incredible strong on Manablades) or just use another attack than a heavy attack before using ult. You have more burst with dualwield at the cost of weaker light and heavy attacks. But you are using it, so it's still worth the tradeoff in your opinion.
Please just specc to stamina and fight good Dks, Manasorcs and also some good Templars and you will see the issues Stamblade has. I'm not saying that you can't make a Stamblade build working, but it's a lot harder to perform well than with most other classes since you don't have much burst, aren't tanky and don't have much aoe. Who cares about constant dps if I can easily outshield/heal it?

Actually I do agree, that Incap might be too strong and I would be fine with a nerf, if people would stop crying about the other things Stamblade will get. Player 1 cries about Incap. Player 2 goes full mimimi because Dawnbreaker of Smiting is going to be Staminamorph and says that only Flawless Dawnbreaker should be the Staminamorph, which is definitely the weaker ultimate in PvP and is ignoring the fact that all other ultimates are still manabased (bats, meteor, soul assault, ...). Player 3 says that Boneshield will bury Manabuilds while ignoring again the fact that Manabuilds get a shield too. I'm still wondering why there is no ASSASSINS WILL POISON MORPH OP OMFG ZENIMAX NERF ASAP OR I WILL QUIT thread yet. Really looking forward for the people who will complain about Stamsorcs if they get finally buffed one day. And the worst part is, that many of this people who are complaining about Stambuffs are abusing vicious death (buggy set) + deto since weeks right now and NEVER complained about this.

And now we noticed that the person who got hit by an empowered Incap 16k crit uses light armor with zero impen we can go back to reality. Dawnbreaker crit will hit for around the same amount on light armor with no impen on it (a tip: It's not forbidden to use impen as a sorc). And I think the extra defense you get with new annulment will be stronger than the dmg increase from this ultimates. The only difference will be, that Incap proccs Major Defile which you can purge anyways. But as I said, just nerf Incap, as long as you give Stambuilds the other buffs I'm fine with it.

Going destro staff means you lose alot (over 10%) damage on your magicka skills, so it has a big counterpart to have access to efficient weaving on a magicka build, compared to a stam one. Yes thats imo a fair trade off for ultimates not scaling on mighty, and using another abilitie before ultimate is not comparable since light/heavy attacks doesnt share the same GCD than normal skills, which permits to make both hitting at the same time (and hitting twice while your ennemy can only use 1 skill) that is of course a big advantage. Yes at the moment the shields of magicka nb is a big advantage over stam, and as of now the skill required to play stamNB efficiently is much higher but when mastered its as good (for duels/smallscale) and anyway that changes next patch with stamina getting a good instant shield+even higher amount of dodgerolls possible.
And this is supposed to be a thread about Incapaciting Strike, most of the others stam buffs are fine imo as they concern unused abilities on live. And not buffing by 25-35% the damage of an already extremely strong and popular ultimate.

Jordaen · May 2016

guarantee more than half the people saying incap is balanced are nb's

Kas · May 2016

Attackopsn wrote: »

Let's begin by getting back on topic, Incapacitating Strike!
Cost: 50, Range: 5m, Single Target
Deals x damage
stuns target for 6 seconds
Increases Damage against afflicted target by 20%
Applies Major Defile (30% Healing Debuff)
Passively, this ability increases critical, and restores magicka when a target is killed with it, values listed in Assassination Skill Line
When discussing this and comparing it to other class ultimates, not only should we consider all of these benefits, but all other aspects of a class and its available ultimates that may account for the obvious excess utility provided by this ultimate.

I would like to begin by comparing this to Standard of Might, and Overload, which I believe are the the other two strongest class based ultimates also sharing similar properties (damage values, buffs and debuffs).

Standard of Might
Cost: 250, Range 8m, AoE
Deals x damage over 17 seconds
Applies Major Defile to all targets within its radius
All Targets within radius take 20% increased damage from all sources
Reduces Any Damage received by 20% while within the standard
Has an available synergy that immobilizes all enemies in range
Passively, any burning effect applied to targets affected will be increased by
66%, in addition to receiving a 30% snare, and damage may be affected by Searing Heat/World in Flame (Needs Confirmation) totalling to 9% more overall DoT damage

Overload
Cost: 64, Range: 28-36m (depends on user location) Single Target
Deals x Damage to target (comparable to Death Stroke)
Adds a third bar and access to use of a third ultimate (yes, sorcerers can have three ultimates)
Can be charged up to be casted an excessive amount of times, utilizing up to 1000 ultimate and does not completely deplete user ultimate when toggled
Restores Magicka on successful hits
Passively has a 6% chance to deal an additional x damage when afflicted target is at low health, damage is comparable to surprise attack (Proc cannot crit? Needs confirmation)

As you can see, different ultimates seem more useful in different situations, Death Stroke being an incredibly useful single-target burst ultimate, Standard destroying it in AoE and even certain single target encounters, Overload taking the cake for being an amazing utility bar and providing some of the best ranged single target sustained and burst dps in the game

Each of these has their niche, Death Stroke is definitely more efficient in one on one combat and gank situations because that is what it was made to do, just because you are a "1v1er" or you got "ganked" doesn't mean it is the most OP thing in the game, which it clearly isn't, in fact, any of these ultimates could be described as "the most OP thing in the game" depending on the situation

This ultimate just has the edge 1v1, and just because you got your ego hurt doesn't justify ridiculous posts seen daily on these forums

@Wrobel please consider everything when reviewing abilities, I do believe that you are heading in the right direction this update (the best balance patch in a year by far!!), don't let these kinds of posts mislead you

Consider all of these factors when posting constructive feedback in this post, and avoid posting ignorant/unhelpful responses

each of them has their niches?
SoM is incredible for PvE and so is overload.
Overload is annoying when used from within a zerg
Incap strike will STILL not be used for PvE in DB, but it is so strong in small-scale PvP that one could almost say it breaks it.

almost-breaking an entire aspect of pvp is not exactly what i'd call a niche use

PS: the big difference is ofc that incap+other ability is far more likely to prduce a player-killing damage brust than the other two

But w/e, I'm already toying with stamblade, it's more fun than I thought. If unchanged I'll just play mine. If we want to form groups larger than 2-4, we'll just use different chars for that. Double campaign times rewards is nice for making gold anyway...

Kas · May 2016

e: double

Vangy · May 2016

Kas wrote: »

Attackopsn wrote: »

Let's begin by getting back on topic, Incapacitating Strike!
Cost: 50, Range: 5m, Single Target
Deals x damage
stuns target for 6 seconds
Increases Damage against afflicted target by 20%
Applies Major Defile (30% Healing Debuff)
Passively, this ability increases critical, and restores magicka when a target is killed with it, values listed in Assassination Skill Line
When discussing this and comparing it to other class ultimates, not only should we consider all of these benefits, but all other aspects of a class and its available ultimates that may account for the obvious excess utility provided by this ultimate.

I would like to begin by comparing this to Standard of Might, and Overload, which I believe are the the other two strongest class based ultimates also sharing similar properties (damage values, buffs and debuffs).

Standard of Might
Cost: 250, Range 8m, AoE
Deals x damage over 17 seconds
Applies Major Defile to all targets within its radius
All Targets within radius take 20% increased damage from all sources
Reduces Any Damage received by 20% while within the standard
Has an available synergy that immobilizes all enemies in range
Passively, any burning effect applied to targets affected will be increased by
66%, in addition to receiving a 30% snare, and damage may be affected by Searing Heat/World in Flame (Needs Confirmation) totalling to 9% more overall DoT damage

Overload
Cost: 64, Range: 28-36m (depends on user location) Single Target
Deals x Damage to target (comparable to Death Stroke)
Adds a third bar and access to use of a third ultimate (yes, sorcerers can have three ultimates)
Can be charged up to be casted an excessive amount of times, utilizing up to 1000 ultimate and does not completely deplete user ultimate when toggled
Restores Magicka on successful hits
Passively has a 6% chance to deal an additional x damage when afflicted target is at low health, damage is comparable to surprise attack (Proc cannot crit? Needs confirmation)

As you can see, different ultimates seem more useful in different situations, Death Stroke being an incredibly useful single-target burst ultimate, Standard destroying it in AoE and even certain single target encounters, Overload taking the cake for being an amazing utility bar and providing some of the best ranged single target sustained and burst dps in the game

Each of these has their niche, Death Stroke is definitely more efficient in one on one combat and gank situations because that is what it was made to do, just because you are a "1v1er" or you got "ganked" doesn't mean it is the most OP thing in the game, which it clearly isn't, in fact, any of these ultimates could be described as "the most OP thing in the game" depending on the situation

This ultimate just has the edge 1v1, and just because you got your ego hurt doesn't justify ridiculous posts seen daily on these forums

@Wrobel please consider everything when reviewing abilities, I do believe that you are heading in the right direction this update (the best balance patch in a year by far!!), don't let these kinds of posts mislead you

Consider all of these factors when posting constructive feedback in this post, and avoid posting ignorant/unhelpful responses

each of them has their niches?
SoM is incredible for PvE and so is overload.
Overload is annoying when used from within a zerg
Incap strike will STILL not be used for PvE in DB, but it is so strong in small-scale PvP that one could almost say it breaks it.

almost-breaking an entire aspect of pvp is not exactly what i'd call a niche use

PS: the big difference is ofc that incap+other ability is far more likely to prduce a player-killing damage brust than the other two

But w/e, I'm already toying with stamblade, it's more fun than I thought. If unchanged I'll just play mine. If we want to form groups larger than 2-4, we'll just use different chars for that. Double campaign times rewards is nice for making gold anyway...

Different toons have different strengths. Incap is good for ganking and small scale. And as you already seem to acknowledge, incap is kinda worthless in bigger groups. Especially since cloak is nerfed into the ground. Any bombard spamming monkey or rml slotted mag toon can perma reveal you. Kinda makes jumping into zergs as a stamblade a suicide mission.