Restore Bracing - Never Ask for Buffs

Arthg · May 2016

double post, sorry

Arthg · May 2016

laced wrote: »

Numerous reasons. One specifically is that roll dodge you can dodge an infinite amount of attacks per roll, and they kept their armor passive AND got a trait with the new patch.

Not to mention a new craftable set, ubiquitous now in Cyro: Eternal Hunt.

Why don't we even bother with blocking? Roll-dodging is the way to go

Liofa · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

@DDuke

I already said that Igneous Shield and Coagulating Blood is worthless for defense / healing usage . I use Igneous for Stamina return and Ultimate regeneration . Coagulating Blood is only when healer is dead or really really bad . Nothing else .

I don't need survivability abilities because I take little to no damage . That is my builds purpose .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9usblelLYE

Please tell me what the tank uses while getting hit by the Gatling Gun . You can see it very clearly at 4:44 . Could it be the skill that I already said that I am using ? ( Hint : Absorb Magic / Defensive Posture ) I have hard-capped resist and lots of block mitigation so I am sure I can survive that . He is probably ( I know that 1 tank from Hodor is using this setup so ... ) using Tava's Favor + Blood Spawn for Ultimate regeneration so I am sure I am as tanky as he is .

I don't have to use those skills at all because I don't get to low Health unless I miss a mechanic . Saying again , that is my builds purpose .

90% of non-blocking in trials will require your healer to heal you 90% of the time instead of dealing damage and using supportive skills . You will be doing mostly 10k while your healer can do 15-20k at least if he can stop healing you for a moment .

I am very glad you pull the numbers to 650 from 500something . We are going to see the exact number when there is an addon for that like Combat Cloud . At least I made you understand that it is rounded to 700 . I will login to PTS and try to learn the exact number in a minute . I will inform you if I succeed ( with a video ) .

ahahah

Ok, so you go from permablocking in Spindleclutch to tanking vMoL xD

Whatever you say... but please don't come to the forums & ask for nerfs to that raid afterwards.

I said I can survive that attack , I didn't say I can tank vMoL . I don't ask for nerfs . You may not believe but I loved it when they removed stamina recovery while blocking because it was too easy . I am deleting the unnecessary parts from the video right now . The cost is exactly 705 with 3 purple v16 shield-play enchants , Fortress passive , 75 points to Block Expertise . My character in live server blocks for 479 . Hope that clears some questions .

Personofsecrets · May 2016

arth-grogalith wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Numerous reasons. One specifically is that roll dodge you can dodge an infinite amount of attacks per roll, and they kept their armor passive AND got a trait with the new patch.

Not to mention a new craftable set, ubiquitous now in Cyro: Eternal Hunt.

Why don't we even bother with blocking? Roll-dodging is the way to go

People have said that tanks are useless in Cyrodiil since at least IC came out.

DDuke · May 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@DDuke ,

Let's say that mitigation, as you write, is the most important tanking tool.

Let's also say that blocking gives 50% mitigation (it does depending on how you perceive the diminished returns on mitigation as working).

Given that both of the above sentences are true, then how is blocking not one of the most important tools for tanking?

Because the only time you need to block an attack is when it would kill you otherwise.

This is true with heavy armor, it's not necessarily true with light or medium (as both have less mitigation).

There are more times to block an attack than that.

They could block an attack because they do not want to cause the healer any stresses.

They could block some attacks because a series of them might add up to have a similar effect as one big attack.

They could block an attack to avoid being CCd

They could block some attacks because there are too many things happening at the same time to pay close attention to and it is best to assume that one of those things could cause a problem if it is not blocked.

You may think that some of us block too often, but if you are sincere in your ideas, then you may be using block in many less ways than it can be used and you would therefore be losing alot of value that you could have while tanking.

Additionally, I don't think that your answer is that great because anyone could make any number of changes to their build and not just blocking to protect against those times that a one shot may occur. There isn't any inherent reason as to why we should value mitigation via armor, via effects, or via blocking more than one another. They are all tools to be utilized.

Maybe we only need to use heroic slash when a non-heroic slashed attack will kill us. But maybe we use it to generate ultimate too. But maybe we use it to cause less stress to the group. But maybe we don't use it at all during any of the times that it would be good to use it because it would cost too much at that given time.

See what I mean?

Of course there are more times you should block, but the only times you really have to is when you'd die if you didn't.

That's what tanking is about, surviving & taking damage.

Blocking CCs is extremely easy, you can clearly see the animations of trash mobs & bosses when these attacks are coming. If not, then it's a L2P issue I'm afraid.

Also, series of attacks will never "one shot" you, it's literally impossible if you look at that sentence. Sure, sometimes you get unlucky & you have many things land at the same time - but it's still not enough to kill you if you have enough mitigation and health. If you are at 50-75% health or something & there's many hits incoming, then of course block (because that'd kill you, going back to the initial point I made).

If you don't know what can kill you & what can't, then block more & get better (but don't complain on the forums about stamina being more of a problem than it is for better tanks).

Personofsecrets · May 2016

Liofa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

@DDuke

I already said that Igneous Shield and Coagulating Blood is worthless for defense / healing usage . I use Igneous for Stamina return and Ultimate regeneration . Coagulating Blood is only when healer is dead or really really bad . Nothing else .

I don't need survivability abilities because I take little to no damage . That is my builds purpose .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9usblelLYE

Please tell me what the tank uses while getting hit by the Gatling Gun . You can see it very clearly at 4:44 . Could it be the skill that I already said that I am using ? ( Hint : Absorb Magic / Defensive Posture ) I have hard-capped resist and lots of block mitigation so I am sure I can survive that . He is probably ( I know that 1 tank from Hodor is using this setup so ... ) using Tava's Favor + Blood Spawn for Ultimate regeneration so I am sure I am as tanky as he is .

I don't have to use those skills at all because I don't get to low Health unless I miss a mechanic . Saying again , that is my builds purpose .

90% of non-blocking in trials will require your healer to heal you 90% of the time instead of dealing damage and using supportive skills . You will be doing mostly 10k while your healer can do 15-20k at least if he can stop healing you for a moment .

I am very glad you pull the numbers to 650 from 500something . We are going to see the exact number when there is an addon for that like Combat Cloud . At least I made you understand that it is rounded to 700 . I will login to PTS and try to learn the exact number in a minute . I will inform you if I succeed ( with a video ) .

ahahah

Ok, so you go from permablocking in Spindleclutch to tanking vMoL xD

Whatever you say... but please don't come to the forums & ask for nerfs to that raid afterwards.

I said I can survive that attack , I didn't say I can tank vMoL . I don't ask for nerfs . You may not believe but I loved it when they removed stamina recovery while blocking because it was too easy . I am deleting the unnecessary parts from the video right now . The cost is exactly 705 with 3 purple v16 shield-play enchants , Fortress passive , 75 points to Block Expertise . My character in live server blocks for 479 . Hope that clears some questions .

That is why I think that we need to be careful with any nerfs.

It is a slippery slope before we get more and more nerfs and until, eventually, what we do after those nerfs is just a shadow of it's former self.

DDuke · May 2016

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Here's how much you need to block in Spindleclutch (cant believe I wasted time recording this):

https://youtu.be/eJEedtjEc_Q

Note that it's not even a proper tanking setup (not the correct food, impen gear etc)

Before you go & say "oh, but you're a templar bla bla"... you can do just the same as a DK spamming Deep Breath & blocking+using Coagulating when in danger of dying, or as a NB with Sap Essence.

I'm sorry, but Spindleclutch is a major joke of a dungeon (and you didn't even get to a boss that does even decent damage?). I don't see how fighting trash packs and a mini-boss actually proves your point.

I know, but there was a person earlier in the thread who posted a video to "prove something" where he was permablocking even lone trash mobs in Spindle.

Let me just make this clear one more time to everyone:

If you don't have to block, and it's not of any use to you - DON'T BLOCK

There, I solved all sustain issues you're ever going to have as a tank.

This game is not meant to be played by permablocking, if you people haven't gathered that from all the changes that have been made to blocking & tanking patch after patch.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@DDuke ,

Let's say that mitigation, as you write, is the most important tanking tool.

Let's also say that blocking gives 50% mitigation (it does depending on how you perceive the diminished returns on mitigation as working).

Given that both of the above sentences are true, then how is blocking not one of the most important tools for tanking?

Because the only time you need to block an attack is when it would kill you otherwise.

This is true with heavy armor, it's not necessarily true with light or medium (as both have less mitigation).

There are more times to block an attack than that.

They could block an attack because they do not want to cause the healer any stresses.

They could block some attacks because a series of them might add up to have a similar effect as one big attack.

They could block an attack to avoid being CCd

They could block some attacks because there are too many things happening at the same time to pay close attention to and it is best to assume that one of those things could cause a problem if it is not blocked.

You may think that some of us block too often, but if you are sincere in your ideas, then you may be using block in many less ways than it can be used and you would therefore be losing alot of value that you could have while tanking.

Additionally, I don't think that your answer is that great because anyone could make any number of changes to their build and not just blocking to protect against those times that a one shot may occur. There isn't any inherent reason as to why we should value mitigation via armor, via effects, or via blocking more than one another. They are all tools to be utilized.

Maybe we only need to use heroic slash when a non-heroic slashed attack will kill us. But maybe we use it to generate ultimate too. But maybe we use it to cause less stress to the group. But maybe we don't use it at all during any of the times that it would be good to use it because it would cost too much at that given time.

See what I mean?

Of course there are more times you should block, but the only times you really have to is when you'd die if you didn't.

That's what tanking is about, surviving & taking damage.

Blocking CCs is extremely easy, you can clearly see the animations of trash mobs & bosses when these attacks are coming. If not, then it's a L2P issue I'm afraid.

Also, series of attacks will never "one shot" you, it's literally impossible if you look at that sentence. Sure, sometimes you get unlucky & you have many things land at the same time - but it's still not enough to kill you if you have enough mitigation and health. If you are at 50-75% health or something & there's many hits incoming, then of course block (because that'd kill you, going back to the initial point I made).

If you don't know what can kill you & what can't, then block more & get better (but don't complain on the forums about stamina being more of a problem than it is for better tanks).

@DDuke , we went over this before IC came out.

I have the experiences necessary to make informed choices as to when to block. That is why I am against the Bracing nerf. We provide you with evidence of this and yet you either use strawman arguments, shift the goal posts, or try to position your style of playing above other styles. If you style of tanking is similar to what you showed in your video, then I doubt that your style is representative at all of what the many different players do in this game (many people use block for example).

DDuke · May 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

arth-grogalith wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Numerous reasons. One specifically is that roll dodge you can dodge an infinite amount of attacks per roll, and they kept their armor passive AND got a trait with the new patch.

Not to mention a new craftable set, ubiquitous now in Cyro: Eternal Hunt.

Why don't we even bother with blocking? Roll-dodging is the way to go

People have said that tanks are useless in Cyrodiil since at least IC came out.

Tanks are far from useless and you'd have to be really clueless to claim so.

Heavy Armor Magicka templar tank is within the Top 3 of PvP builds at the moment when it comes to viability & success you can have.

zerosingularity · May 2016

Getting hard to keep up, so I am just gonna say this:

DDuke, you have made your point and keep saying it. You are completely entitled to your own view point, but you don't need to repeat yourself so much.

For reference about block costs, go back to page 6 and at the top you see the cost formula for live and PTS (Which I confirmed to be 100% accurate) and go see the numerical difference.

Also, Deep Breath is useless for sustain, you do no damage as a tank, the heals are unnecessary in trash pulls, and the magicka return is not enough to justify outside of a DPS using it.

And you refuse to understand the mindset of a new player, and only think about yourself and what you want. At this point you are fanning flames and not helping the discussion, so unless you start bringing in cold hard data (SC doesn't count for an experienced tank and you know it), please just stop so we can get back on topic.

If he keeps fanning flames, then I suggest to everyone to no longer acknowledge him until he brings actual data to the table, this is getting tiring and starting to deviate from the issue at hand.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

If you don't have to block, and it's not of any use to you - DON'T BLOCK

That point is really just a form of begging the question of when blocking is of any use.

Technically blocking will always have some use as long as even just a single light attack is about to occur.

Why is it that you get to decide when players should block and , therefore, when they should care about the bracing nerf? You can't so easily toss aside all of the important times that there are to block. Well, maybe you can if you are just taping down your puncturing sweep button all of the time.

Arthg · May 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

People have said that tanks are useless in Cyrodiil since at least IC came out.

These people must be the FotMers and meta-loving suckers that waste their resources on me while my squishy friends rip them apart

We are a rare but fine breed.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

zerosingularity wrote: »

Getting hard to keep up, so I am just gonna say this:

DDuke, you have made your point and keep saying it. You are completely entitled to your own view point, but you don't need to repeat yourself so much.

For reference about block costs, go back to page 6 and at the top you see the cost formula for live and PTS (Which I confirmed to be 100% accurate) and go see the numerical difference.

Also, Deep Breath is useless for sustain, you do no damage as a tank, the heals are unnecessary in trash pulls, and the magicka return is not enough to justify outside of a DPS using it.

And you refuse to understand the mindset of a new player, and only think about yourself and what you want. At this point you are fanning flames and not helping the discussion, so unless you start bringing in cold hard data (SC doesn't count for an experienced tank and you know it), please just stop so we can get back on topic.

If he keeps fanning flames, then I suggest to everyone to no longer acknowledge him until he brings actual data to the table, this is getting tiring and starting to deviate from the issue at hand.

You are right, thank you. Let's get back on track.

DDuke · May 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@DDuke ,

Let's say that mitigation, as you write, is the most important tanking tool.

Let's also say that blocking gives 50% mitigation (it does depending on how you perceive the diminished returns on mitigation as working).

Given that both of the above sentences are true, then how is blocking not one of the most important tools for tanking?

Because the only time you need to block an attack is when it would kill you otherwise.

This is true with heavy armor, it's not necessarily true with light or medium (as both have less mitigation).

There are more times to block an attack than that.

They could block an attack because they do not want to cause the healer any stresses.

They could block some attacks because a series of them might add up to have a similar effect as one big attack.

They could block an attack to avoid being CCd

They could block some attacks because there are too many things happening at the same time to pay close attention to and it is best to assume that one of those things could cause a problem if it is not blocked.

You may think that some of us block too often, but if you are sincere in your ideas, then you may be using block in many less ways than it can be used and you would therefore be losing alot of value that you could have while tanking.

Additionally, I don't think that your answer is that great because anyone could make any number of changes to their build and not just blocking to protect against those times that a one shot may occur. There isn't any inherent reason as to why we should value mitigation via armor, via effects, or via blocking more than one another. They are all tools to be utilized.

Maybe we only need to use heroic slash when a non-heroic slashed attack will kill us. But maybe we use it to generate ultimate too. But maybe we use it to cause less stress to the group. But maybe we don't use it at all during any of the times that it would be good to use it because it would cost too much at that given time.

See what I mean?

Of course there are more times you should block, but the only times you really have to is when you'd die if you didn't.

That's what tanking is about, surviving & taking damage.

Blocking CCs is extremely easy, you can clearly see the animations of trash mobs & bosses when these attacks are coming. If not, then it's a L2P issue I'm afraid.

Also, series of attacks will never "one shot" you, it's literally impossible if you look at that sentence. Sure, sometimes you get unlucky & you have many things land at the same time - but it's still not enough to kill you if you have enough mitigation and health. If you are at 50-75% health or something & there's many hits incoming, then of course block (because that'd kill you, going back to the initial point I made).

If you don't know what can kill you & what can't, then block more & get better (but don't complain on the forums about stamina being more of a problem than it is for better tanks).

@DDuke , we went over this before IC came out.

I have the experiences necessary to make informed choices as to when to block. That is why I am against the Bracing nerf. We provide you with evidence of this and yet you either use strawman arguments, shift the goal posts, or try to position your style of playing above other styles. If you style of tanking is similar to what you showed in your video, then I doubt that your style is representative at all of what the many different players do in this game (many people use block for example).

Well, that's clearly a situation where you have to block if you are below 25k'ish~ health(?). Hard to tell at which intervals those hits came in from that screenshot. The axes hit really slow, like once every 4-5 seconds.

Block when you need to block.

What you do when you're not blocking is up to you.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

arth-grogalith wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

People have said that tanks are useless in Cyrodiil since at least IC came out.

These people must be the FotMers and meta-loving suckers that waste their resources on me while my squishy friends rip them apart

We are a rare but fine breed.

I was a tank when I got emperor. It was fun to do. I did start to get ignored in combat an awful lot though.

WolfingHour · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Here's how much you need to block in Spindleclutch (cant believe I wasted time recording this):

https://youtu.be/eJEedtjEc_Q

Note that it's not even a proper tanking setup (not the correct food, impen gear etc)

Before you go & say "oh, but you're a templar bla bla"... you can do just the same as a DK spamming Deep Breath & blocking+using Coagulating when in danger of dying, or as a NB with Sap Essence.

Oh I see. Perhaps it's not that you are in favour of the nerf of bracing, but rather that you are looking forward for wrath, considering that you tank with jabs? In your case, more dmg translates into more healing.

Naturally that I'm not against tank pitching in with more damage in a PvE fight, but not at the expense of being able to block, but I can see how a build like your would benefit with the change.

And speaking of spindle clutch, I'm curious, did that tactic work in the old Praxin fight?

DDuke · May 2016

zerosingularity wrote: »

Also, Deep Breath is useless for sustain, you do no damage as a tank, the heals are unnecessary in trash pulls, and the magicka return is not enough to justify outside of a DPS using it.

That is entirely up to how you build your character. You can deal significant amounts of damage as a tank, if you build for it. Also, if permablocking apparently is necessary, then why would the heals be unnecessary? I honestly do not understand this logic. You don't have to permablock to survive incoming damage. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact.

zerosingularity wrote: »

And you refuse to understand the mindset of a new player, and only think about yourself and what you want. At this point you are fanning flames and not helping the discussion, so unless you start bringing in cold hard data (SC doesn't count for an experienced tank and you know it), please just stop so we can get back on topic.

New players is exactly what I'm thinking of.

They get a heavy armor that's better at everything but permablocking. How is that a bad thing? How many tanks do you see currently while pugging, that aren't just sitting behind RMB being useless sponges? How is more tank build diversity bad?

If I was a new player, I'd be delighted that there was more possibilities for a tank than just holding RMB.

Also, what counts as a "cold hard data"? What can I provide? You can do pretty much anything in this game without permablocking (vMoL might be an exception & I'm not about to waste 11 peoples' time to test that out)

zerosingularity wrote: »

If he keeps fanning flames, then I suggest to everyone to no longer acknowledge him until he brings actual data to the table, this is getting tiring and starting to deviate from the issue at hand.

I've brought plenty of data to the table, even recorded a video that you can tank perfectly fine without being a permablock sponge.
What can I provide? That's a better question.
In fact, even better question would be: what have you provided besides whining?

I swear, every time something changes about tanking, the same people crawl out of the woodworks & light the forums on fire without really analyzing the change or looking at the bigger picture.

Then the patch goes live and none of their doomsday scenarios happen and everyone moves on.

DDuke · May 2016

WolfingHour wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Here's how much you need to block in Spindleclutch (cant believe I wasted time recording this):

https://youtu.be/eJEedtjEc_Q

Note that it's not even a proper tanking setup (not the correct food, impen gear etc)

Before you go & say "oh, but you're a templar bla bla"... you can do just the same as a DK spamming Deep Breath & blocking+using Coagulating when in danger of dying, or as a NB with Sap Essence.

Oh I see. Perhaps it's not that you are in favour of the nerf of bracing, but rather that you are looking forward for wrath, considering that you tank with jabs? In your case, more dmg translates into more healing.

Naturally that I'm not against tank pitching in with more damage in a PvE fight, but not at the expense of being able to block, but I can see how a build like your would benefit with the change.

And speaking of spindle clutch, I'm curious, did that tactic work in the old Praxin fight?

I'll go solo Praxin later today.

WolfingHour · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Here's how much you need to block in Spindleclutch (cant believe I wasted time recording this):

https://youtu.be/eJEedtjEc_Q

Note that it's not even a proper tanking setup (not the correct food, impen gear etc)

Before you go & say "oh, but you're a templar bla bla"... you can do just the same as a DK spamming Deep Breath & blocking+using Coagulating when in danger of dying, or as a NB with Sap Essence.

Oh I see. Perhaps it's not that you are in favour of the nerf of bracing, but rather that you are looking forward for wrath, considering that you tank with jabs? In your case, more dmg translates into more healing.

Naturally that I'm not against tank pitching in with more damage in a PvE fight, but not at the expense of being able to block, but I can see how a build like your would benefit with the change.

And speaking of spindle clutch, I'm curious, did that tactic work in the old Praxin fight?

I'll go solo Praxin later today.

Ahah.

Not this one. The old one with very powerful friends.

DDuke · May 2016

WolfingHour wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Here's how much you need to block in Spindleclutch (cant believe I wasted time recording this):

https://youtu.be/eJEedtjEc_Q

Note that it's not even a proper tanking setup (not the correct food, impen gear etc)

Before you go & say "oh, but you're a templar bla bla"... you can do just the same as a DK spamming Deep Breath & blocking+using Coagulating when in danger of dying, or as a NB with Sap Essence.

Oh I see. Perhaps it's not that you are in favour of the nerf of bracing, but rather that you are looking forward for wrath, considering that you tank with jabs? In your case, more dmg translates into more healing.

Naturally that I'm not against tank pitching in with more damage in a PvE fight, but not at the expense of being able to block, but I can see how a build like your would benefit with the change.

And speaking of spindle clutch, I'm curious, did that tactic work in the old Praxin fight?

I'll go solo Praxin later today.

Ahah.

Not this one. The old one with very powerful friends.

ah, the Pugslayer?

Well, I wish I could go back in time to test that out

Woeler · May 2016

laced wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Crafted all my gear with help of some NA guys supplying me the Kuta's (thanks guys!). And I tanked with the exact same setup on live, which means no sturdy.

So, here we have 16 pages of people being upset, 1,673,583,573 ZOS mentions and a lot of people doing calculations. I appreciate all the work, but really, it does not matter. Tanking is far from a numbers game. No tank is going to care if his block now costs 20 stamina more, or 20 stamina less (unless it's ridiculous amounts, but that's not what we are speaking of here).

The key points here are does it feel different, do I die faster, does my stamina reach the 0-point faster and do you need to adapt? And well, the simple answer is no. I went into Elden Hollow solo on both live and PTS (normally I go WGT, but since these were nerfed because of too many l2p issues I chose to not go there). I felt no difference, I did not need to adapt my strategies, I did not go out of stamina, I did not die from any unusual things. Nothing, just nothing. Hence I don't understand why there is so much drama here.

A minus here and a plus there still equals 0, and that is exactly what this is. Sure if you look at them individually one might call one a nerf and one a buff, but in my opinion, that is a stupid way to look at things.

20 % is not 20 stamina when blocking costs 3k per hit. that is over 600 more stamina per block.

If you would have read on you would have seen that 20 is just a random number I used for proof of concept. It has nothing to do with the 20%. It could also have written X instead of 20.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

Woeler wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Crafted all my gear with help of some NA guys supplying me the Kuta's (thanks guys!). And I tanked with the exact same setup on live, which means no sturdy.

So, here we have 16 pages of people being upset, 1,673,583,573 ZOS mentions and a lot of people doing calculations. I appreciate all the work, but really, it does not matter. Tanking is far from a numbers game. No tank is going to care if his block now costs 20 stamina more, or 20 stamina less (unless it's ridiculous amounts, but that's not what we are speaking of here).

The key points here are does it feel different, do I die faster, does my stamina reach the 0-point faster and do you need to adapt? And well, the simple answer is no. I went into Elden Hollow solo on both live and PTS (normally I go WGT, but since these were nerfed because of too many l2p issues I chose to not go there). I felt no difference, I did not need to adapt my strategies, I did not go out of stamina, I did not die from any unusual things. Nothing, just nothing. Hence I don't understand why there is so much drama here.

A minus here and a plus there still equals 0, and that is exactly what this is. Sure if you look at them individually one might call one a nerf and one a buff, but in my opinion, that is a stupid way to look at things.

20 % is not 20 stamina when blocking costs 3k per hit. that is over 600 more stamina per block.

If you would have read on you would have seen that 20 is just a random number I used for proof of concept. It has nothing to do with the 20%. It could also have written X instead of 20.

One concern that I have is that there has been so much focus over testing on the PTS, but the PTS doesn't have the increased block cost that will occur once DB goes live.

Liofa · May 2016

Here you go : Exactly 705 stamina with 75 points into Block Expert , Absorb Magic , Fortress and 3 purple v16 enchants .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMo3mJC8-tg

My character in live server requires 479 stamina with the same passives and v14 enchants instead of v16 and with Bracing passive . Here is your comparison . Hope it clears questions in your mind .

Calculation for block cost increase : ( at least for me )

479 + 479 ( x / 100 ) = 705

x = 47.1

Block cost increased by 47.1% for me . You can just do the same thing with your build and learn how much more your block will cost . ( I am using Combat Cloud to learn the stamina drain for every block in live server . )

Woeler · May 2016

Liofa wrote: »

Please tell me what the tank uses while getting hit by the Gatling Gun . You can see it very clearly at 4:44 . Could it be the skill that I already said that I am using ? ( Hint : Absorb Magic / Defensive Posture ) I have hard-capped resist and lots of block mitigation so I am sure I can survive that . He is probably ( I know that 1 tank from Hodor is using this setup so ... ) using Tava's Favor + Blood Spawn for Ultimate regeneration so I am sure I am as tanky as he is .

FYI, he is NOT capped on resistances and armor. Doing this trial has nothing to do with being the tankiest tank, it has everything to do with knowing when, where and how to move and react. Our second tank even tanks the second boss with 5 medium armor. Investing everything to get to that cap is a complete waste. I'm around 29-30k on resistance and armor and that boss is not a problem. But it doesn't matter, if you do not use absorb magic or magma shell that gatling gun is going to kill you, capped or not. So yeah, go to VMoL, and you will need survivability skills and without absorb magic or shell you are dead. You are sure you will survive it, I am sure you will be eating dirt after a few seconds.

WolfingHour · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Here's how much you need to block in Spindleclutch (cant believe I wasted time recording this):

https://youtu.be/eJEedtjEc_Q

Note that it's not even a proper tanking setup (not the correct food, impen gear etc)

Before you go & say "oh, but you're a templar bla bla"... you can do just the same as a DK spamming Deep Breath & blocking+using Coagulating when in danger of dying, or as a NB with Sap Essence.

Oh I see. Perhaps it's not that you are in favour of the nerf of bracing, but rather that you are looking forward for wrath, considering that you tank with jabs? In your case, more dmg translates into more healing.

Naturally that I'm not against tank pitching in with more damage in a PvE fight, but not at the expense of being able to block, but I can see how a build like your would benefit with the change.

And speaking of spindle clutch, I'm curious, did that tactic work in the old Praxin fight?

I'll go solo Praxin later today.

Ahah.

Not this one. The old one with very powerful friends.

ah, the Pugslayer?

Well, I wish I could go back in time to test that out

Indeed. That one.

But like you alude to, it was way back when. I'll admit it's not best of comparisons - the game then is not the same one we are playing today.

I guess that is the other thing that irks me. Back then classes held some meaning, they each their own identity.

Right now, it feels like we are playing the same class with sligthly different choices and different colour palette. Every one has a heal, a shield, CCs, a dps ability...

I honestly don't think that we are very far off from being all DPS with a slight inclination to heal or hold some damage.

Really sad if you ask me.

aidenmoore · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Here's how much you need to block in Spindleclutch (cant believe I wasted time recording this):

https://youtu.be/eJEedtjEc_Q

Note that it's not even a proper tanking setup (not the correct food, impen gear etc)

Before you go & say "oh, but you're a templar bla bla"... you can do just the same as a DK spamming Deep Breath & blocking+using Coagulating when in danger of dying, or as a NB with Sap Essence.

I'm sorry, but Spindleclutch is a major joke of a dungeon (and you didn't even get to a boss that does even decent damage?). I don't see how fighting trash packs and a mini-boss actually proves your point.

I know, but there was a person earlier in the thread who posted a video to "prove something" where he was permablocking even lone trash mobs in Spindle.

Let me just make this clear one more time to everyone:

If you don't have to block, and it's not of any use to you - DON'T BLOCK

There, I solved all sustain issues you're ever going to have as a tank.

This game is not meant to be played by permablocking, if you people haven't gathered that from all the changes that have been made to blocking & tanking patch after patch.

I'd love to see your video where you successfully tank vMoL with your jabspam, I'm sure with the Wrath passive. It'll help you with tanking vMoL even moreso.

SublimeSparo · May 2016

@DDuke What exactly is the spindleclutch video meant to prove? I can do exactly that on my healer in light armour, and my magicka nb dps, and solo bloodspawn... a tank is not even needed for that whole dungeon so how in any way is this supposed to represent tanking? Make a video of vWGT or vICP at least, or better yet the first trash pull on MoL/ vMoL.
Edit: extra points for an AA axes HM or Manti vid

Jade1986 · May 2016

Edit: I just put Dduke on ignore, no point in even talking to this guy. Proven wrong on 12492837927432984879324289 occasions and he still insists it is ok. I suggest everyone do the same.

Either give ALL armor lines the same treatment and reduce their reduction perk, or give us back bracing, this is a completely unfounded change, and will ruin trials and will ruin CP - less pvp campaigns for people that use sword and shield.

Jade1986 · May 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Crafted all my gear with help of some NA guys supplying me the Kuta's (thanks guys!). And I tanked with the exact same setup on live, which means no sturdy.

So, here we have 16 pages of people being upset, 1,673,583,573 ZOS mentions and a lot of people doing calculations. I appreciate all the work, but really, it does not matter. Tanking is far from a numbers game. No tank is going to care if his block now costs 20 stamina more, or 20 stamina less (unless it's ridiculous amounts, but that's not what we are speaking of here).

The key points here are does it feel different, do I die faster, does my stamina reach the 0-point faster and do you need to adapt? And well, the simple answer is no. I went into Elden Hollow solo on both live and PTS (normally I go WGT, but since these were nerfed because of too many l2p issues I chose to not go there). I felt no difference, I did not need to adapt my strategies, I did not go out of stamina, I did not die from any unusual things. Nothing, just nothing. Hence I don't understand why there is so much drama here.

A minus here and a plus there still equals 0, and that is exactly what this is. Sure if you look at them individually one might call one a nerf and one a buff, but in my opinion, that is a stupid way to look at things.

20 % is not 20 stamina when blocking costs 3k per hit. that is over 600 more stamina per block.

If you would have read on you would have seen that 20 is just a random number I used for proof of concept. It has nothing to do with the 20%. It could also have written X instead of 20.

One concern that I have is that there has been so much focus over testing on the PTS, but the PTS doesn't have the increased block cost that will occur once DB goes live.

This.

You have the people saying it is fine, but they are COMPLTELY ignoring this fact right here.

DDuke · May 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

@DDuke What exactly is the spindleclutch video meant to prove? I can do exactly that on my healer in light armour, and my magicka nb dps, and solo bloodspawn... a tank is not even needed for that whole dungeon so how in any way is this supposed to represent tanking? Make a video of vWGT or vICP at least, or better yet the first trash pull on MoL/ vMoL.
Edit: extra points for an AA axes HM or Manti vid

As mentioned, I posted the video because someone else posted a video where he was permablocking even single trash mobs in Spindleclutch (and then subsequently complaining on the forums about "new players" going to have stamina issues - of course they are if they do the same ridiculous things as this person in the video.

Block what you have to block only.

And vMoL trash probably falls into the category of "this is where you have to block".

laced wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

GoodOlPinkly wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

GoodOlPinkly wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

In no way are tanks getting nerfed.

And people are still claiming tanks are getting nerfed?

If you think being a tank meant only taping down your right mouse button, you've got bigger problems than block cost being increased.

Yes , it is nerfed in PvE . Because after dungeons got nerfed , only place where tanking matters is trials and in trials you have to block 99% of the time . Only time you drop block is for putting a light attack for Ultimate Regeneration which is less than 0.5 seconds . Nerfing something that matters in something means it is getting nerfed .

I will tell you what block cost increase for a trial tank like me means . Best way to tell is this : imagine your beloved Puncturing Sweeps getting its cost increased by 40-50% . I don't know how I can explain in any other way .

Only the cost wasn't increased 40-50%...you basically pulled that number directly from your ass.

First of all , thanks for your respectful comment . Clearly proves that I made them up . Anyways , I will just put the videos of me tanking in live server and in PTS .

This is the video from live server where you can clearly see ''Drained 479'' every time I successfully block .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93pBXLaiRds

And this is the one from PTS . There is no addon so I just watch the Stamina bar . Most clear time you can see it going down is while I am taking damage from Necromancers in the Watcher boss .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9maBXA5pq0E

I mentioned what I am using in each video in one of the posts above . Only difference is Bracing and increase in the block cost . I am not using any Sturdy in the second video .

Also , I highly recommend learning to discuss things like a normal person .

Sorry, but there's virtually no difference seen in the two videos.

Also, I can see why you're upset about this change - all you do in these videos is hold block (even when nothing is attacking you)

You do know that there's no stamina regeneration while blocking? Also, despite how scary they are, a single trash mob in Spindleclutch wont one shot you if you stop blocking for a second (nor does Blood Spawn hit you for more than 20-30% of your health if you decide not to block one of his attacks, but these are advanced tactics )

1- My build doesn't have any self healing . That is why I am trying to get the least damage I can get and let the Healer do DPS . That is why I am blocking most of the time . I don't have an option like using sweeps to heal myself . Only healing I have is a joke ( Coagulating Blood )

You have a healer, you still don't need to block 24/7. In fact, your health regen alone is more than enough to outheal a single trash mob and holding block does nothing but prevent you from regening stamina (which often in your video is stuck at around 60% due to this).

Also, you clearly have both Coagulating Blood & Igneous Shield on your bar on the videos. You cast one Igneous Shield & it'll take 15 minutes for that lone trash mob to get through it.

Or you know, you can hold block & then complain about stamina.

Your choice.

Also, what exactly is the problem with Coagulating Blood? It's an awesome skill for tanks. Especially in PvE (also one of the few ways of getting Minor Vitality) - pretty much all DK tanks use it.

Liofa wrote: »

2- I am trying to tell the difference it will make in the trials . I am trying to point the difference in block cost . I still can't understand how you don't see the difference . Addon clearly shows that block costs 479 stamina and other video shows clearly each block costs around 700 . If Constitution gives 9xx every 4 seconds instead of 2xx ; it will make 7xx more stamina every 4 seconds . which results in less than 200 stamina every second . The difference in block cost is more than 200 , which shows that it is not even after the change .

"Around 700". Wow, so precise.

Are you sure it's not "around 600" or "around 500", or do your spider senses allow you to calculate the exact amount by staring at the stamina pool?

Liofa wrote: »

3- This is probably fourth time I am trying to tell you it is about trials where PvE tanking matters . Also it will affect new players who are trying to tank veteran dungeons where lots of adds going to attack them and Constitution won't do any good in AOE fights . Not everyone can heal themselves with insane amounts with sweeps in AOE fights .

We've had one of the best tanks in the EU megaserver post here and say it's fine and there's not much of a difference, I'll put much more faith in what he has to say than some random tank who permablocks in Spindleclutch.

Also, DK tanks can survive just as easily as Templars by using Igneous, Coagulating & Deep Breath.

You being disingenuous again. The problem here is not tanking a single nameless mob and you know it.

I am talking about the "comparison" videos where he is tanking even the single nameless mobs by holding block, and then complaining about running out of stamina on the forums.

All I'm saying is that you'll want to adapt your playstyles if you run out of stamina.

Block less, use those defensive skills on bar instead, that's the direction these changes are pushing you towards. You may have more stamina problems while blocking multiple enemies, but if you drop that block for a while you'll also regenerate stamina much faster.

That, and those defensive skills are now much stronger after the other changes to heavy armor and you're less suspectible to getting bursted down (you get +5% more health now, which is a pretty big deal).

A whole lot of over-reacting, just like every time something changes about anything related to tanking (whether good or bad).

Did you just took a PvE video and built a argument based on PvP against it?

What's based on PvP? Please elaborate.

I can't really speak for the PVE side of this because I HealTank in PVE, but for PVP this is a huge Nerf if your taking 10 consecutive hits from a semi good player in pvp your either dead, or wasting that extra 200 wep/ spell damage on healing yourself.

How is it "wasting 200 extra wep/spell dmg" if you heal yourself? It's called taking damage and surviving (aka tanking).

If you have enough mitigation and decent health pool, you don't need to worry about blocking attacks.

There comes a time in PvP when you know exactly how much damage each class & each build can deal to you. Then you only block when you know the incoming damage would kill you (or CC you at a bad moment).

@Liofa

Stop saying your build doesn't have any damage or healing abilities when that simply isn't true. You have Igneous & Coagulating on your bar (as clearly proven by the videos you posted).

Besides, who's fault would it be if you didn't slot any survivability skills?

As for "2 healers not being enough", I'd like to see you try and tank vMoL Rakkhat's gatling gun without using any kind of survivability skill.

But that's besides the point: as a tank, any time you get to low health you should use these survivability skills (just like most decent & semi-decent tanks do). Of course you can just stand there holding block & then die while staring at the skills wondering what to do with them. I saw plenty of these "tanks" when I still bothered pugging dungeons.

Oh, and Craglorn trials are a joke (you don't need to block there 90% of time).

Also, does that 0,7k mean precisely 700 stamina for each block, or does it mean 738, 744, maybe even 651 rounded to 700? That is what I mean. It is impossible to theorycraft anything around numbers that are so flexible based on your bias.

My mitigation is near max and yes certain builds can still two- three shot a "Magicka Templar"

If so, I'm yet to meet one. The best burst I've seen takes around 50% of my health pool and that's by really good players and a combination of 3+ skills. If things are 2-3 shotting you, you're not using proper gear/traits.

Well, with the new update we wont be ABLE to use the traits we need to avoid being 2 or 3 shot, now will we? Impen is out the window because we have to sacrifice it for sturdy.

#logic

On what basis? I'll never drop impenetrable on my templar - I'll have zero problems either because I don't block 24/7.

Adjust your playstyle to block less, problem solved.