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Restore Bracing - Never Ask for Buffs
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Woeler✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Crafted all my gear with help of some NA guys supplying me the Kuta's (thanks guys!). And I tanked with the exact same setup on live, which means no sturdy.
So, here we have 16 pages of people being upset, 1,673,583,573 ZOS mentions and a lot of people doing calculations. I appreciate all the work, but really, it does not matter. Tanking is far from a numbers game. No tank is going to care if his block now costs 20 stamina more, or 20 stamina less (unless it's ridiculous amounts, but that's not what we are speaking of here).
The key points here are does it feel different, do I die faster, does my stamina reach the 0-point faster and do you need to adapt? And well, the simple answer is no. I went into Elden Hollow solo on both live and PTS (normally I go WGT, but since these were nerfed because of too many l2p issues I chose to not go there). I felt no difference, I did not need to adapt my strategies, I did not go out of stamina, I did not die from any unusual things. Nothing, just nothing. Hence I don't understand why there is so much drama here.
A minus here and a plus there still equals 0, and that is exactly what this is. Sure if you look at them individually one might call one a nerf and one a buff, but in my opinion, that is a stupid way to look at things.2 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »
I made a video with my average geared Nightbalde tank. I guess the changes really upset those many other class tanks that don't have Siphoning attacks like we do, but it just makes Sap-tanking more effective when you have enough enemies focused on you. I've no real reason to complain about it, just making one or two suggestions to add something more instead, like up front damage reduction in heavy armor, if the bracing passive isn't reverted.I like the wrath passive.
Do you already use 3 spell/wpn damage enchants?
No actually. I personally really dislike the community market. Medium story short, I was recommended willpower but I found some Purple footman jewelry instead, just for the 3-piece. I believe it has the stock enchantment of a option cooldown and the rings have block cost reduction. My one handed weapon, and all other gear are in fact all Blue VR14.
Out of combat I have about 1k damage since I planned to be a tank and all, and after the passive maxed out and one use of sap essence I have 1600/1500 spell/weapon damage respectively with basically no other bonuses.
Perhaps you don't care about block cost very much, and that is fine if it is the case, but with the change of bracing to wrath you will be losing about 3 block cost enchantments worth of value in exchanged for about 1.5 times weapon/spell damage enchantments.
Perhaps that seems like a fair trade, but this looks like it will be a net loss of value for heavy armor users and especially heavy armor users that are utilizing the ability to block enemy attacks.
Hypothetically you could, right now, make one of your jewelry enchants a spell damage one and you would be feeling pretty similar to how you feel on PTS while fully buffed via wrath. Maybe that isn't going to make a big difference for you either way and I can therefore understand if you have no real reason to complain, but some people, such as myself, don't want to be shoehorned into having more damage at the cost of my sustain.
Anyhow, thank you for having an honest discussion. I hope that I'm able to convince you to complain about the bracing removal. It's good to see that, at least, you want heavy armor to be better. Keep posting what you find if you come by anything interesting - I would watch you videos, but twitch crashes my internet.Edited by Personofsecrets on May 1, 2016 12:31AM1 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Woeler 20 stamina doesn't equal 20% stamina.
Couple questions, do you have any CP points into block cost reduction? Do you have any enchants into block cost reduction?Edited by Personofsecrets on May 1, 2016 12:44AM3 -
VaxtinTheWolf✭✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »
I made a video with my average geared Nightbalde tank. I guess the changes really upset those many other class tanks that don't have Siphoning attacks like we do, but it just makes Sap-tanking more effective when you have enough enemies focused on you. I've no real reason to complain about it, just making one or two suggestions to add something more instead, like up front damage reduction in heavy armor, if the bracing passive isn't reverted.I like the wrath passive.
Do you already use 3 spell/wpn damage enchants?
No actually. I personally really dislike the community market. Medium story short, I was recommended willpower but I found some Purple footman jewelry instead, just for the 3-piece. I believe it has the stock enchantment of a option cooldown and the rings have block cost reduction. My one handed weapon, and all other gear are in fact all Blue VR14.
Out of combat I have about 1k damage since I planned to be a tank and all, and after the passive maxed out and one use of sap essence I have 1600/1500 spell/weapon damage respectively with basically no other bonuses.
Perhaps you don't care about block cost very much, and that is fine if it is the case, but with the change of bracing to wrath you will be losing about 3 block cost enchantments worth of value in exchanged for about 1.5 times weapon/spell damage enchantments.
Perhaps that seems like a fair trade, but this looks like it will be a net loss of value for heavy armor users and especially heavy armor users that are utilizing the ability to block enemy attacks.
Hypothetically you could, right now, make one of your jewelry enchants a spell damage one and you would be feeling pretty similar to how you feel on PTS while fully buffed via wrath. Maybe that isn't going to make a big difference for you either way and I can therefore understand if you have no real reason to complain, but some people, such as myself, don't want to be shoehorned into having more damage at the cost of my sustain.
Anyhow, thank you for having an honest discussion. I hope that I'm able to convince you to complain about the bracing removal. It's good to see that, at least, you want heavy armor to be better. Keep posting what you find if you come by anything interesting - I would watch you videos, but twitch crashes my internet.
If you check the most recent paged of the nightblade thread, I believe linked the youtube version of myself fighting that skeever loving freak in the normal wayrest sewers. That's the only one I highlighted out of that 8 hour stream. The dungeons that I attempted and eventually managed to solo were The Banished cells, Spindleclutch, fungle grotto and 98% of darkshade caverns. That dwemer construct that spawns healing ads was too much for my low damage output, and all I had was an ice staff and a restoration staff for backup weapons.|| AD - Rah'Jiin Lv50 Khajiit Nightblade (Damage) || EP - Generic Argonian Lv50 Argonian Nightblade (Tank) || DC - Zinkotsu Lv50 Breton Nightblade (Healer) ||
|| DC - Ja'Kiro Feral-Heart Lv50 Khajiit Dragonknight (Damage) || EP - VaxtinTheWolf Lv50 Redguard Templar (Tank) || AD - Velik Iranis Lv50 Dark Elf Sorcerer (Tank ) ||
|| EP - Einvarg The Frozen Lv50 Nord Warden (Tank/Healer) || EP - Keem-Ja Lv4 Argonian Necromancer (Healer/Tank) ||PC - North American Server (Champion 1300+)0 -
Woeler✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »@Woeler 20 stamina doesn't equal 20% stamina.
Couple questions, do you have any CP points into block cost reduction? Do you have any enchants into block cost reduction?
The 20 is just a random number I picked for proof of concept. It has nothing to do with the 20%. But to answer your question, yes I have cp in block cost reduction and yes I do have block cost enchants. Now that you mention it, I actually play with 300cp on pts and 501 on live.Edited by Woeler on May 1, 2016 1:26AM0 -
GoodOlPinkly✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »@Woeler 20 stamina doesn't equal 20% stamina.
Couple questions, do you have any CP points into block cost reduction? Do you have any enchants into block cost reduction?
The 20 is just a random number I picked for proof of concept. It has nothing to do with the 20%. But to answer your question, yes I have cp in block cost reduction and yes I do have block cost enchants. Now that you mention it, I actually play with 300cp on pts and 501 on live.
This is a huge hit to PVP HA wearers aswell due to the fact that its such a bursty community that 10 consecutive hits won't net you 200 wep/spell damage, if will net you a respawn. At least the block reduction kept us alive and prepare a comback.5 -
Woeler✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GoodOlPinkly wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »@Woeler 20 stamina doesn't equal 20% stamina.
Couple questions, do you have any CP points into block cost reduction? Do you have any enchants into block cost reduction?
The 20 is just a random number I picked for proof of concept. It has nothing to do with the 20%. But to answer your question, yes I have cp in block cost reduction and yes I do have block cost enchants. Now that you mention it, I actually play with 300cp on pts and 501 on live.
This is a huge hit to PVP HA wearers aswell due to the fact that its such a bursty community that 10 consecutive hits won't net you 200 wep/spell damage, if will net you a respawn. At least the block reduction kept us alive and prepare a comback.
I can definitely see how this hits pvp as the constitution passive has a time based cooldown and not a hit based cooldown. You people being extreme unhappy about this change I can totally understand, but as far as PvE goes it is not that big of a deal (if a deal at all). In PvP you can get a lot of fast hitting people on you all at once, in PvE you won't see that happen (A pack of AI mobs is NOT the same as 10 players).Edited by Woeler on May 1, 2016 2:19AM1 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭GoodOlPinkly wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »@Woeler 20 stamina doesn't equal 20% stamina.
Couple questions, do you have any CP points into block cost reduction? Do you have any enchants into block cost reduction?
The 20 is just a random number I picked for proof of concept. It has nothing to do with the 20%. But to answer your question, yes I have cp in block cost reduction and yes I do have block cost enchants. Now that you mention it, I actually play with 300cp on pts and 501 on live.
This is a huge hit to PVP HA wearers aswell due to the fact that its such a bursty community that 10 consecutive hits won't net you 200 wep/spell damage, if will net you a respawn. At least the block reduction kept us alive and prepare a comback.
I can definitely see how this hits pvp as the constitution passive has a time based cooldown and not a hit based cooldown. You people being extreme unhappy about this change I can totally understand, but as far as PvE goes it is not that big of a deal (if a deal at all).
A few people said the same thing about the stam regen nerf.
>Things are still 'doable'
>Adapt
Let's just keep adapting until there is no tanking.Edited by Personofsecrets on May 1, 2016 2:21AM5 -
Woeler✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »GoodOlPinkly wrote: »Personofsecrets wrote: »@Woeler 20 stamina doesn't equal 20% stamina.
Couple questions, do you have any CP points into block cost reduction? Do you have any enchants into block cost reduction?
The 20 is just a random number I picked for proof of concept. It has nothing to do with the 20%. But to answer your question, yes I have cp in block cost reduction and yes I do have block cost enchants. Now that you mention it, I actually play with 300cp on pts and 501 on live.
This is a huge hit to PVP HA wearers aswell due to the fact that its such a bursty community that 10 consecutive hits won't net you 200 wep/spell damage, if will net you a respawn. At least the block reduction kept us alive and prepare a comback.
I can definitely see how this hits pvp as the constitution passive has a time based cooldown and not a hit based cooldown. You people being extreme unhappy about this change I can totally understand, but as far as PvE goes it is not that big of a deal (if a deal at all).
A few people said the same thing about the stam regen nerf.
>Things are still 'doable'
>Adapt
Let's just keep adapting until there is no tanking.
Except for the fact that there is no adaptation necessary with this change, at least not in PvE. And don't mention me in a thread if you start being cynical because I view things differently.Personofsecrets wrote: »You use block cost reduction jewelry on live?
And yes I do.Edited by Woeler on May 1, 2016 2:25AM1 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭"I didn't notice a difference, therefore this is an a-okay change"
Isn't the point of the nerf to notice a difference? The devs at worst feigned to want to make HA better.
If a few people aren't noticing a difference either way and some people are noticing a difference, then who's opinion matters? The agnostic who has a play style that doesn't have to change or the people who will be actually affected by the nerf?Edited by Personofsecrets on May 1, 2016 2:27AM3 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Do you use block cost reduction jewelry on live?
So you, already having block cost reduction jewelry, unlike myself, have less changes to make in order to adapt to a new PVE tanking meta.
I, having to adapt more, am finding some issues with the removal of Bracing. One of those issues is born from the idea that block cost reduction jewelry enchants are terrible and shouldn't be used, but I feel like I will be more shoehorned to use them in the future.
There are real PVE choices to make affecting how powerful tank builds are.
Furthermore, I would like to address the idea of cynicism.
"And don't mention me in a thread if you start being cynical because I view things differently."
Cynical = "distrusting or disparaging the motives of others; like or characteristic of a cynic"
When you said that you didn't notice much change, I wondered why and that is why I asked about your build. Maybe that is cynical because I wondered why you didn't notice much difference, but just the other day you said this...
" A question that I have been having for a long time: Does OP actually tank for a competitive group in trials? A yes or no might or might not explain certain things I read here. "
I don't take any offense at the question, but I guess I also am not very attune to how cynicism is offensive.
Edited by Personofsecrets on May 1, 2016 2:57AM2 -
Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I did some testing . On live server my character requires 470 stamina for each block . I have v14 jewelry with all shield-play enchant on them . 75 points into Block Expert , Absorb Magic on bar plus Bracing . On PTS , I have v16 jewelry ( which should be stronger than v14 ) with all shield-play enchant , 75 into Block Expert , Absorb Magic again minus Bracing and no Sturdy items . It costs around 700 stamina . Can't see the exact number due to no addon usage . Removal of Bracing and increasing the base cost of block resulted in about 40-50% increase in block cost for me .
From PvP perspective , you are totally screwed since almost everyone is running a burst build . You will die much quicker since you will be reaching 0 stamina much quicker . You can be sure that 200 weapon damage won't save you . It will make you hit harder of course but it won't make you tanky like HA supposed to do .
From PvE perspective , I can just give an example . On PTS , me and 2 friends (3-man total , 1 healer , 1 dd and me as tank) threw ourselves to the vICP immediately to test the nerf the dungeon got . We wiped 3 times through the dungeon . I never ran out of stamina . You can easily say I was permablocking even though I wasn't because Guard was always on the Healer . So , no stamina recovery . My total count of Heavy Attacks through all dungeon isn't higher than 10 times . Now , the important part is , I didn't ran out of stamina because I am perfectly experienced with my build . I know what to do and when to do . I know all the strategies and all . If you throw this to new players , they will be out of stamina in less 30 seconds .
As you know , ZOS is trying to make the game easier for casuals . Funny enough , it seems like they are doing it totally wrong . Nerfing dungeons are not the way to go . Buff dungeons and tanks all together and you will see that there will be more tanks in the game . DPS is so high , we can just ignore mechanics . If you nerf dungeons even more , there won't be any need for tanks . People are soloing vCoA and it gets nerfed . This is just a sign that dungeons should be buffed along with tanks so that people will actually need tanks and there will be more of them running around . Giving tanks 200 weapon / spell damage won't do any difference in PvE tanking . ZOS should have done the opposite of what they did .
Also , no admin comment on a huge topic like this is not good at all .
What I would do is , making all Armor and Weapon passives act differently in PvE and PvP zones . Some of them are just fine as is of course . Taking away the only reason to use Heavy Armor and replacing it for weapon / spell damage is just an example of this . Just make the passive act differently in PvP zone or make morphs for passives also so people can use what they want . This will also make room for different builds and playstyles . You know , instead of nerfing stuff .5 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Since my latest reminder has been buried by 15 pages of whining, let me remind you again:
In no way are tanks getting nerfed.
In fact, you're getting now more sustain, more healing received, more health, more mitigation, more damage, more healing done.............................. more everything.
And people are still claiming tanks are getting nerfed?
If you think being a tank meant only taping down your right mouse button, you've got bigger problems than block cost being increased.0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Also , no admin comment on a huge topic like this is not good at all .
Thank you for the testing you did. I don't really expect a comment from @Wrobel , @ZOS_RichLambert , or @ZOS_Finn . If they read my posts and think about them, then that is good enough for me.
Maybe, if I make a very clear and concise take down of the bracing nerf, then I would expect them to respond, but until I land a very clear blow to the nerf, I am happy with using this thread to gather data about the nerf and how people feel.Edited by Personofsecrets on May 1, 2016 3:36AM1 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
In no way are tanks getting nerfed.
Here are a few things for you to keep in mind DDuke
1.@Liofa just clearly described an increase in block cost. (Block/heavy armor nerf)
2.Heavy armor and block are important tools to tanks.
3.Tanks are nerfed when heavy armor and block is nerfed.
4. Tanks are nerfed.6 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Liofa ,
I have some food for thought for you
Currently bracing isn't affected by diminished returns when it is stacked with other forms of block cost reduction, but other forms of block cost reduction, like jewelry enchants, CP, and sturdy, are affected by diminished returns severely.
If bracing were to give 20% mitigation, but also be affected by diminished returns, then it would have to have a tool tip value of 40%.
@Wrobel , this issue with bracing could be made less problematic if the diminished returns on block cost reduction stacking wasn't so severe. Uncoupling block cost reduction from HA would still pose some problems, but not be as bad if you make changes so that diminished returns of block cost reduction are not so severe.
One of my larger complaints about some tanking stats is that they are arcane and work in somewhat esoteric ways. Thats not good to draw people into the role IMO.3 -
Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
In no way are tanks getting nerfed.
And people are still claiming tanks are getting nerfed?
If you think being a tank meant only taping down your right mouse button, you've got bigger problems than block cost being increased.
Yes , it is nerfed in PvE . Because after dungeons got nerfed , only place where tanking matters is trials and in trials you have to block 99% of the time . Only time you drop block is for putting a light attack for Ultimate Regeneration which is less than 0.5 seconds . Nerfing something that matters in something means it is getting nerfed .
I will tell you what block cost increase for a trial tank like me means . Best way to tell is this : imagine your beloved Puncturing Sweeps getting its cost increased by 40-50% . I don't know how I can explain in any other way .5 -
Woeler✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »Furthermore, I would like to address the idea of cynicism.
"And don't mention me in a thread if you start being cynical because I view things differently."
Cynical = "distrusting or disparaging the motives of others; like or characteristic of a cynic"
When you said that you didn't notice much change, I wondered why and that is why I asked about your build. Maybe that is cynical because I wondered why you didn't notice much difference, but just the other day you said this...
" A question that I have been having for a long time: Does OP actually tank for a competitive group in trials? A yes or no might or might not explain certain things I read here. "
I don't take any offense at the question, but I guess I also am not very attune to how cynicism is offensive.
This is the cynical, maybe it is the wrong word to use. Lets go with derisive.Personofsecrets wrote: »
>Things are still 'doable'
>Adapt
Let's just keep adapting until there is no tanking.
Edited by Woeler on May 1, 2016 4:36AM0 -
zerosingularity✭✭✭✭Lets keep things civil, I have noticed some friction being generated, and for the sake of everyone, lets all chill a bit, take a nap, and maybe eat some sweetrolls before coming back. The more respectful we are to each other, the more likely we are to get a useful dev post before page 40+.NA-PC
Kaineth - Stamina Nightblade (Weakest Player Ever!)
Elena Stormwood - Magicka Sorcerer (vMA no Death 12/21/15 Score 401148)
Sheila Feyrondas - Magicka Dragonknight Tank (Frost staves are gonna be fun!)
*Disclaimer* I fail at emotional communication, so assume what I say is NOT meant to be offensive.0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
In no way are tanks getting nerfed.
And people are still claiming tanks are getting nerfed?
If you think being a tank meant only taping down your right mouse button, you've got bigger problems than block cost being increased.
Yes , it is nerfed in PvE . Because after dungeons got nerfed , only place where tanking matters is trials and in trials you have to block 99% of the time . Only time you drop block is for putting a light attack for Ultimate Regeneration which is less than 0.5 seconds . Nerfing something that matters in something means it is getting nerfed .
I will tell you what block cost increase for a trial tank like me means . Best way to tell is this : imagine your beloved Puncturing Sweeps getting its cost increased by 40-50% . I don't know how I can explain in any other way .
Only the cost wasn't increased 40-50%...you basically pulled that number directly from your ass.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
In no way are tanks getting nerfed.
And people are still claiming tanks are getting nerfed?
If you think being a tank meant only taping down your right mouse button, you've got bigger problems than block cost being increased.
Yes , it is nerfed in PvE . Because after dungeons got nerfed , only place where tanking matters is trials and in trials you have to block 99% of the time . Only time you drop block is for putting a light attack for Ultimate Regeneration which is less than 0.5 seconds . Nerfing something that matters in something means it is getting nerfed .
I will tell you what block cost increase for a trial tank like me means . Best way to tell is this : imagine your beloved Puncturing Sweeps getting its cost increased by 40-50% . I don't know how I can explain in any other way .
Only the cost wasn't increased 40-50%...you basically pulled that number directly from your ass.
First of all , thanks for your respectful comment . Clearly proves that I made them up . Anyways , I will just put the videos of me tanking in live server and in PTS .
This is the video from live server where you can clearly see ''Drained 479'' every time I successfully block .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93pBXLaiRds
And this is the one from PTS . There is no addon so I just watch the Stamina bar . Most clear time you can see it going down is while I am taking damage from Necromancers in the Watcher boss .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9maBXA5pq0E
I mentioned what I am using in each video in one of the posts above . Only difference is Bracing and increase in the block cost . I am not using any Sturdy in the second video .
Also , I highly recommend learning to discuss things like a normal person .7 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Crafted all my gear with help of some NA guys supplying me the Kuta's (thanks guys!). And I tanked with the exact same setup on live, which means no sturdy.
So, here we have 16 pages of people being upset, 1,673,583,573 ZOS mentions and a lot of people doing calculations. I appreciate all the work, but really, it does not matter. Tanking is far from a numbers game. No tank is going to care if his block now costs 20 stamina more, or 20 stamina less (unless it's ridiculous amounts, but that's not what we are speaking of here).
The key points here are does it feel different, do I die faster, does my stamina reach the 0-point faster and do you need to adapt? And well, the simple answer is no. I went into Elden Hollow solo on both live and PTS (normally I go WGT, but since these were nerfed because of too many l2p issues I chose to not go there). I felt no difference, I did not need to adapt my strategies, I did not go out of stamina, I did not die from any unusual things. Nothing, just nothing. Hence I don't understand why there is so much drama here.
A minus here and a plus there still equals 0, and that is exactly what this is. Sure if you look at them individually one might call one a nerf and one a buff, but in my opinion, that is a stupid way to look at things.
20 % is not 20 stamina when blocking costs 3k per hit. that is over 600 more stamina per block.3 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
In no way are tanks getting nerfed.
And people are still claiming tanks are getting nerfed?
If you think being a tank meant only taping down your right mouse button, you've got bigger problems than block cost being increased.
Yes , it is nerfed in PvE . Because after dungeons got nerfed , only place where tanking matters is trials and in trials you have to block 99% of the time . Only time you drop block is for putting a light attack for Ultimate Regeneration which is less than 0.5 seconds . Nerfing something that matters in something means it is getting nerfed .
I will tell you what block cost increase for a trial tank like me means . Best way to tell is this : imagine your beloved Puncturing Sweeps getting its cost increased by 40-50% . I don't know how I can explain in any other way .
You cant discuss this with him, he is dead convinced that the change is fine, even after all the calculations done proving him wrong.4 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Since my latest reminder has been buried by 15 pages of whining, let me remind you again:
In no way are tanks getting nerfed.
In fact, you're getting now more sustain, more healing received, more health, more mitigation, more damage, more healing done.............................. more everything.
And people are still claiming tanks are getting nerfed?
If you think being a tank meant only taping down your right mouse button, you've got bigger problems than block cost being increased.
HA needed SWEEPING buffs, not just a buff or 2, sweeping. The removal of bracing is A, singular, nerf, and it is a big one. HA did not even need a SINGULAR nerf. In order to be up to paar with the other armor types HA needed NOTHNG BUT buffs.7 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »
In no way are tanks getting nerfed.
Here are a few things for you to keep in mind DDuke
1.@Liofa just clearly described an increase in block cost. (Block/heavy armor nerf)
2.Heavy armor and block are important tools to tanks.
3.Tanks are nerfed when heavy armor and block is nerfed.
4. Tanks are nerfed.
Guess what: tanking is about more than just holding block.
You act as if blocking is/was the most important aspect of tanking & heavy armor - it's not. Mitigation is.
If you buff every other aspect of tanking & tone down permablocking a bit, it's not a nerf. This should be obvious.
And it's not even necessarily a nerf to blocking. As people have pointed out previously in the thread, their resource sustain when blocking a single target is much better now with the Constitution changes.Since my latest reminder has been buried by 15 pages of whining, let me remind you again:
In no way are tanks getting nerfed.
In fact, you're getting now more sustain, more healing received, more health, more mitigation, more damage, more healing done.............................. more everything.
And people are still claiming tanks are getting nerfed?
If you think being a tank meant only taping down your right mouse button, you've got bigger problems than block cost being increased.
HA needed SWEEPING buffs, not just a buff or 2, sweeping. The removal of bracing is A, singular, nerf, and it is a big one. HA did not even need a SINGULAR nerf. In order to be up to paar with the other armor types HA needed NOTHNG BUT buffs.
Oh, so you want to make heavy armor overpowered? Because it's already insanely strong for many builds & much, much better than light armor (you basicly trade 7.4% penetration for 8% mitigation, more healing received etc).
As for the heavy armor builds that weren't strong before - have you considered that the Wrath & Constitution changes are making a lot of them finally competitive?0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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In no way are tanks getting nerfed.
And people are still claiming tanks are getting nerfed?
If you think being a tank meant only taping down your right mouse button, you've got bigger problems than block cost being increased.
Yes , it is nerfed in PvE . Because after dungeons got nerfed , only place where tanking matters is trials and in trials you have to block 99% of the time . Only time you drop block is for putting a light attack for Ultimate Regeneration which is less than 0.5 seconds . Nerfing something that matters in something means it is getting nerfed .
I will tell you what block cost increase for a trial tank like me means . Best way to tell is this : imagine your beloved Puncturing Sweeps getting its cost increased by 40-50% . I don't know how I can explain in any other way .
Only the cost wasn't increased 40-50%...you basically pulled that number directly from your ass.
First of all , thanks for your respectful comment . Clearly proves that I made them up . Anyways , I will just put the videos of me tanking in live server and in PTS .
This is the video from live server where you can clearly see ''Drained 479'' every time I successfully block .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93pBXLaiRds
And this is the one from PTS . There is no addon so I just watch the Stamina bar . Most clear time you can see it going down is while I am taking damage from Necromancers in the Watcher boss .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9maBXA5pq0E
I mentioned what I am using in each video in one of the posts above . Only difference is Bracing and increase in the block cost . I am not using any Sturdy in the second video .
Also , I highly recommend learning to discuss things like a normal person .
Sorry, but there's virtually no difference seen in the two videos.
Also, I can see why you're upset about this change - all you do in these videos is hold block (even when nothing is attacking you)
You do know that there's no stamina regeneration while blocking? Also, despite how scary they are, a single trash mob in Spindleclutch wont one shot you if you stop blocking for a second (nor does Blood Spawn hit you for more than 20-30% of your health if you decide not to block one of his attacks, but these are advanced tactics
) Edited by DDuke on May 1, 2016 11:11AM1 -
AlcastClass RepresentativeHow much more stamina do you get back from blocking now due to the changes?
I mean, block cost reduction got nerfed yes. But you get more resources back from blocking. Doesnt that kind of balance it out?https://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
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Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
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In no way are tanks getting nerfed.
And people are still claiming tanks are getting nerfed?
If you think being a tank meant only taping down your right mouse button, you've got bigger problems than block cost being increased.
Yes , it is nerfed in PvE . Because after dungeons got nerfed , only place where tanking matters is trials and in trials you have to block 99% of the time . Only time you drop block is for putting a light attack for Ultimate Regeneration which is less than 0.5 seconds . Nerfing something that matters in something means it is getting nerfed .
I will tell you what block cost increase for a trial tank like me means . Best way to tell is this : imagine your beloved Puncturing Sweeps getting its cost increased by 40-50% . I don't know how I can explain in any other way .
Only the cost wasn't increased 40-50%...you basically pulled that number directly from your ass.
First of all , thanks for your respectful comment . Clearly proves that I made them up . Anyways , I will just put the videos of me tanking in live server and in PTS .
This is the video from live server where you can clearly see ''Drained 479'' every time I successfully block .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93pBXLaiRds
And this is the one from PTS . There is no addon so I just watch the Stamina bar . Most clear time you can see it going down is while I am taking damage from Necromancers in the Watcher boss .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9maBXA5pq0E
I mentioned what I am using in each video in one of the posts above . Only difference is Bracing and increase in the block cost . I am not using any Sturdy in the second video .
Also , I highly recommend learning to discuss things like a normal person .
Sorry, but there's virtually no difference seen in the two videos.
Also, I can see why you're upset about this change - all you do in these videos is hold block (even when nothing is attacking you)
You do know that there's no stamina regeneration while blocking? Also, despite how scary they are, a single trash mob in Spindleclutch wont one shot you if you stop blocking for a second (nor does Blood Spawn hit you for more than 20-30% of your health if you decide not to block one of his attacks, but these are advanced tactics )
1- My build doesn't have any self healing . That is why I am trying to get the least damage I can get and let the Healer do DPS . That is why I am blocking most of the time . I don't have an option like using sweeps to heal myself . Only healing I have is a joke ( Coagulating Blood )
2- I am trying to tell the difference it will make in the trials . I am trying to point the difference in block cost . I still can't understand how you don't see the difference . Addon clearly shows that block costs 479 stamina and other video shows clearly each block costs around 700 . If Constitution gives 9xx every 4 seconds instead of 2xx ; it will make 7xx more stamina every 4 seconds . which results in less than 200 stamina every second . The difference in block cost is more than 200 , which shows that it is not even after the change .
3- This is probably fourth time I am trying to tell you it is about trials where PvE tanking matters . Also it will affect new players who are trying to tank veteran dungeons where lots of adds going to attack them and Constitution won't do any good in AOE fights . Not everyone can heal themselves with insane amounts with sweeps in AOE fights .4 -
WolfingHour✭✭✭✭
In no way are tanks getting nerfed.
And people are still claiming tanks are getting nerfed?
If you think being a tank meant only taping down your right mouse button, you've got bigger problems than block cost being increased.
Yes , it is nerfed in PvE . Because after dungeons got nerfed , only place where tanking matters is trials and in trials you have to block 99% of the time . Only time you drop block is for putting a light attack for Ultimate Regeneration which is less than 0.5 seconds . Nerfing something that matters in something means it is getting nerfed .
I will tell you what block cost increase for a trial tank like me means . Best way to tell is this : imagine your beloved Puncturing Sweeps getting its cost increased by 40-50% . I don't know how I can explain in any other way .
Only the cost wasn't increased 40-50%...you basically pulled that number directly from your ass.
First of all , thanks for your respectful comment . Clearly proves that I made them up . Anyways , I will just put the videos of me tanking in live server and in PTS .
This is the video from live server where you can clearly see ''Drained 479'' every time I successfully block .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93pBXLaiRds
And this is the one from PTS . There is no addon so I just watch the Stamina bar . Most clear time you can see it going down is while I am taking damage from Necromancers in the Watcher boss .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9maBXA5pq0E
I mentioned what I am using in each video in one of the posts above . Only difference is Bracing and increase in the block cost . I am not using any Sturdy in the second video .
Also , I highly recommend learning to discuss things like a normal person .
Sorry, but there's virtually no difference seen in the two videos.
Also, I can see why you're upset about this change - all you do in these videos is hold block (even when nothing is attacking you)
You do know that there's no stamina regeneration while blocking? Also, despite how scary they are, a single trash mob in Spindleclutch wont one shot you if you stop blocking for a second (nor does Blood Spawn hit you for more than 20-30% of your health if you decide not to block one of his attacks, but these are advanced tactics )
This is getting very tiresome.
Could you please refrain from sidetracking the discussion?
Never in this thread or any other thread, such as previous no sta regen discussions, did anyone say that they were unhappy because they can't stand there and press a button anymore.
Nor does anyone think that mobs in spindle can one shot you. Trials on the other hand are another kettle of fish. Think about that.
Now, I know that trials can't be the baseline, so let's consider vet dungeons.
All vet pledges, as they are now, are a cake walk. Tanks are not needed in most fights and that won't change with the next patch. Healers can just drop a couple of hot, taunt and spam shields, because DPS is so out of control that everything melts before it becomes an issue.
And what is the change we see with tanks? Make them inefficient in one of their core functions - being able to absorb damage in a sustained way. On top of that, nerf 3 dungeons for good measure.
Doesn't make sense.Edited by WolfingHour on May 1, 2016 12:14PM4