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Why is the content so easy?
-
Eshelmen✭✭✭✭✭It's an MMO. All quests/conent up until level cap are basically a tutorial. End game stuff is where the challenge part takes off, or is atleast supposed too.
Tutorials are usually the easier part of the game.
Then you did not understand what ESO is about - what you call "tutorial" is the main content.
MMOs are all the same. I don't think you understand that.
Same style of quests. Same type of leveling and progression involved. You can sugar coat it how you want. But it's still an MMO. And in MMOs generally, all content until end game is basically a tutorial. The only difference here is the content in ESO is pretty much available at any point. Doesn't mean the difficulty stays the same.
You really don't understand the motivation behind ESO - sorry, but ESO is not the typical MMO, it is an expansive online Elder Scrolls RPG - ask Mr. Firor, he said it very clearly. You can ignore that of course, but it will not change to where ESO is heading.
I will ignore it indeed.
It's pretty obvious why they would stray away from the term MMO and call it an Online Rpg instead.
Propaganda.
How could Zeni distinguish themselves if they called themselves an MMO?
They can't, at least not any more.
They know in terms of customers and profit, their direct competitor (WoW and possibly others) are clearly winning the MMO war.
This is probably how it went down in the marketing department.
"So, let's call it an Online RPG. More people love RPGs than MMOS, right?
"So, let's pull the noobies in who hate MMOs, yet love RPGS, even though it's literally a reskin of every other fantasy mmo!" "Great Idea!"
"Ahahahaha and let's use the Elder Scrolls title too!"
"C.R.E.A.M son!"
"Dollar dollar bills yalllll"
This is an MMO. Whether you like it or not.
"NOOOOOOOO"
I understand your love for the game. I get that. As I love it too. But please don't feed me Zeni jargon as an excuse to hide behind what this game is. lol
I've been playing MMOs for 20+ years and this one is literally no different, in terms of experience as a low level player and a capped player. The Main Story is always the guideline(tutorial)for progressing to end game. This game is no different.
Any who- ontopic @ OP
Content is easy because it serves the many, over the few. More noobies in this game than there are experts.Edited by Eshelmen on May 2, 2016 2:07AMPC and PS4 EP only player1 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's an MMO. All quests/conent up until level cap are basically a tutorial. End game stuff is where the challenge part takes off, or is atleast supposed too.
Tutorials are usually the easier part of the game.
Then you did not understand what ESO is about - what you call "tutorial" is the main content.
MMOs are all the same. I don't think you understand that.
Same style of quests. Same type of leveling and progression involved. You can sugar coat it how you want. But it's still an MMO. And in MMOs generally, all content until end game is basically a tutorial. The only difference here is the content in ESO is pretty much available at any point. Doesn't mean the difficulty stays the same.
You really don't understand the motivation behind ESO - sorry, but ESO is not the typical MMO, it is an expansive online Elder Scrolls RPG - ask Mr. Firor, he said it very clearly. You can ignore that of course, but it will not change to where ESO is heading.
I will ignore it indeed.
It's pretty obvious why they would stray away from the term MMO and call it an Online Rpg instead.
Propaganda.
How could Zeni distinguish themselves if they called themselves an MMO?
They can't.
They know in terms of customers and profit, their direct competitor (WoW) is clearly winning the MMO war.
This is probably how it went down in the marketing department.
"So, let's call it an Online RPG. More people love RPGs than MMOS, right?
"So, let's pull the noobies in who hate MMOs, yet love RPGS, even though it's literally a reskin of every other fantasy mmo!" "Great Idea!"
"Ahahahaha and let's use the Elder Scrolls title too!"
"C.R.E.A.M son!"
"Dollar dollar bills yalllll"
This is an MMO. Whether you like it or not.
"NOOOOOOOO"
I understand your love for the game. I get that. But please don't force feed jargen down my throat. I'm stating my opinion, respect that.
I've been playing MMOs for 20+ years and this one is literally no different in terms of experience as a low level player and a capped player. The Main Story is always the guideline for progressing to end game. This game is no different.
Any who-
Content is easy because it serves the many, over the few. More noobies in this game than there are experts.
Actually,you need to respect Lysette's opinon as well.She has hers,as you have yours.And that is ALL it is,your opinion.Not fact. You keep saying that whether she likes it or not it IS an MMO. Just because you say it is doesnt mean it is. You should have said that in your "opinion" this game is an MMO.
And Mr Firor says his game isnt a traditional MMO,so it isnt.
Tell him that you say it is and he is wrong.See if he listens to you.1 -
AOECAPS✭✭✭✭http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2938127#Comment_2938127
See people crying about the only somewhat challenging content left bring to hard1 -
Eshelmen✭✭✭✭✭It's an MMO. All quests/conent up until level cap are basically a tutorial. End game stuff is where the challenge part takes off, or is atleast supposed too.
Tutorials are usually the easier part of the game.
Then you did not understand what ESO is about - what you call "tutorial" is the main content.
MMOs are all the same. I don't think you understand that.
Same style of quests. Same type of leveling and progression involved. You can sugar coat it how you want. But it's still an MMO. And in MMOs generally, all content until end game is basically a tutorial. The only difference here is the content in ESO is pretty much available at any point. Doesn't mean the difficulty stays the same.
You really don't understand the motivation behind ESO - sorry, but ESO is not the typical MMO, it is an expansive online Elder Scrolls RPG - ask Mr. Firor, he said it very clearly. You can ignore that of course, but it will not change to where ESO is heading.
I will ignore it indeed.
It's pretty obvious why they would stray away from the term MMO and call it an Online Rpg instead.
Propaganda.
How could Zeni distinguish themselves if they called themselves an MMO?
They can't.
They know in terms of customers and profit, their direct competitor (WoW) is clearly winning the MMO war.
This is probably how it went down in the marketing department.
"So, let's call it an Online RPG. More people love RPGs than MMOS, right?
"So, let's pull the noobies in who hate MMOs, yet love RPGS, even though it's literally a reskin of every other fantasy mmo!" "Great Idea!"
"Ahahahaha and let's use the Elder Scrolls title too!"
"C.R.E.A.M son!"
"Dollar dollar bills yalllll"
This is an MMO. Whether you like it or not.
"NOOOOOOOO"
I understand your love for the game. I get that. But please don't force feed jargen down my throat. I'm stating my opinion, respect that.
I've been playing MMOs for 20+ years and this one is literally no different in terms of experience as a low level player and a capped player. The Main Story is always the guideline for progressing to end game. This game is no different.
Any who-
Content is easy because it serves the many, over the few. More noobies in this game than there are experts.
Actually,you need to respect Lysette's opinon as well.She has hers,as you have yours.And that is ALL it is,your opinion.Not fact. You keep saying that whether she likes it or not it IS an MMO. Just because you say it is doesnt mean it is. You should have said that in your "opinion" this game is an MMO.
And Mr Firor says his game isnt a traditional MMO,so it isnt.
Tell him that you say it is and he is wrong.See if he listens to you.
Her opinion is much welcomed but has zero facts to back it up.
Pulling the "But the developer said this" card doesn't work. We need facts to show what seperates ESO from an MMO.
By him just saying it's not one, shows zero merit.
There have been no facts shown to me that this isn't an MMO.
Anywho, rock on man. Do your thing.
Edited by Eshelmen on May 2, 2016 2:33AMPC and PS4 EP only player0 -
AOECAPS✭✭✭✭It's an MMO. All quests/conent up until level cap are basically a tutorial. End game stuff is where the challenge part takes off, or is atleast supposed too.
Tutorials are usually the easier part of the game.
Then you did not understand what ESO is about - what you call "tutorial" is the main content.
MMOs are all the same. I don't think you understand that.
Same style of quests. Same type of leveling and progression involved. You can sugar coat it how you want. But it's still an MMO. And in MMOs generally, all content until end game is basically a tutorial. The only difference here is the content in ESO is pretty much available at any point. Doesn't mean the difficulty stays the same.
You really don't understand the motivation behind ESO - sorry, but ESO is not the typical MMO, it is an expansive online Elder Scrolls RPG - ask Mr. Firor, he said it very clearly. You can ignore that of course, but it will not change to where ESO is heading.
I will ignore it indeed.
It's pretty obvious why they would stray away from the term MMO and call it an Online Rpg instead.
Propaganda.
How could Zeni distinguish themselves if they called themselves an MMO?
They can't.
They know in terms of customers and profit, their direct competitor (WoW) is clearly winning the MMO war.
This is probably how it went down in the marketing department.
"So, let's call it an Online RPG. More people love RPGs than MMOS, right?
"So, let's pull the noobies in who hate MMOs, yet love RPGS, even though it's literally a reskin of every other fantasy mmo!" "Great Idea!"
"Ahahahaha and let's use the Elder Scrolls title too!"
"C.R.E.A.M son!"
"Dollar dollar bills yalllll"
This is an MMO. Whether you like it or not.
"NOOOOOOOO"
I understand your love for the game. I get that. But please don't force feed jargen down my throat. I'm stating my opinion, respect that.
I've been playing MMOs for 20+ years and this one is literally no different in terms of experience as a low level player and a capped player. The Main Story is always the guideline for progressing to end game. This game is no different.
Any who-
Content is easy because it serves the many, over the few. More noobies in this game than there are experts.
Actually,you need to respect Lysette's opinon as well.She has hers,as you have yours.And that is ALL it is,your opinion.Not fact. You keep saying that whether she likes it or not it IS an MMO. Just because you say it is doesnt mean it is. You should have said that in your "opinion" this game is an MMO.
And Mr Firor says his game isnt a traditional MMO,so it isnt.
Tell him that you say it is and he is wrong.See if he listens to you.
It is an MMO. Love the defense of lysette though
I bet you had to pull out your chivalrous armor to defend her amirite2 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's an MMO. All quests/conent up until level cap are basically a tutorial. End game stuff is where the challenge part takes off, or is atleast supposed too.
Tutorials are usually the easier part of the game.
Then you did not understand what ESO is about - what you call "tutorial" is the main content.
MMOs are all the same. I don't think you understand that.
Same style of quests. Same type of leveling and progression involved. You can sugar coat it how you want. But it's still an MMO. And in MMOs generally, all content until end game is basically a tutorial. The only difference here is the content in ESO is pretty much available at any point. Doesn't mean the difficulty stays the same.
You really don't understand the motivation behind ESO - sorry, but ESO is not the typical MMO, it is an expansive online Elder Scrolls RPG - ask Mr. Firor, he said it very clearly. You can ignore that of course, but it will not change to where ESO is heading.
I will ignore it indeed.
It's pretty obvious why they would stray away from the term MMO and call it an Online Rpg instead.
Propaganda.
How could Zeni distinguish themselves if they called themselves an MMO?
They can't.
They know in terms of customers and profit, their direct competitor (WoW) is clearly winning the MMO war.
This is probably how it went down in the marketing department.
"So, let's call it an Online RPG. More people love RPGs than MMOS, right?
"So, let's pull the noobies in who hate MMOs, yet love RPGS, even though it's literally a reskin of every other fantasy mmo!" "Great Idea!"
"Ahahahaha and let's use the Elder Scrolls title too!"
"C.R.E.A.M son!"
"Dollar dollar bills yalllll"
This is an MMO. Whether you like it or not.
"NOOOOOOOO"
I understand your love for the game. I get that. But please don't force feed jargen down my throat. I'm stating my opinion, respect that.
I've been playing MMOs for 20+ years and this one is literally no different in terms of experience as a low level player and a capped player. The Main Story is always the guideline for progressing to end game. This game is no different.
Any who-
Content is easy because it serves the many, over the few. More noobies in this game than there are experts.
Actually,you need to respect Lysette's opinon as well.She has hers,as you have yours.And that is ALL it is,your opinion.Not fact. You keep saying that whether she likes it or not it IS an MMO. Just because you say it is doesnt mean it is. You should have said that in your "opinion" this game is an MMO.
And Mr Firor says his game isnt a traditional MMO,so it isnt.
Tell him that you say it is and he is wrong.See if he listens to you.
You're defending her opinion yet belittling mine? This forum is 99.9% opinion anyways.
Biased much or what? Double standards? Hmm
Anywho, rock on man. Do your thing.
I'm not belittling you.I am just telling you that her opinion is just as valid as yours is.You each have your own.Get it? The issue for both of you is whether this is an MMO or not,and Mr Firor said it isnt. He s hould know. It's not,..in the traditional sense. I dont think any less of you for your opinion,but you need to understand that it is really only an opinion,as is Lysette's.
If Mr Firor hadnt said what he did about the game,there wouldnt be an issue about it.
I am not belittling you,really.
1 -
Eshelmen✭✭✭✭✭Okay so let's use her "The DEVS said this" card then, with respect to her opinion.
So uh, where's the facts now to prove Mr.Firor is correct? You know, to prove that this isn't an MMO?
Calling a specific vehicle a car or a truck, tells you what kind of vehicle it is, but it's still a vehicle.
Edited by Eshelmen on May 2, 2016 2:34AMPC and PS4 EP only player0 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Okay so let's use her "The DEVS said this" card then, with respect to her opinion.
So uh, where's the facts now to prove Mr.Firor is correct? You know, to prove that this isn't an MMO?
Calling a specific vehicle a car or a truck, tells you what kind of vehicle it is, but it's still a vehicle.
A car is a vehicle,yes it is.A game is a game as well.However, while a car is a vehicle,it isnt a truck.They are different types of "vehicles",same as ESO is a different "game" than WoW. While both are games,they arent the same.Nor is a truck the same as a car,though both are "vehicles".2 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just coming back from a quick nap - you guys just do not want to believe it, because it is not what you want to hear. But this is what Mr. Firor said lately in an interview.
http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/03/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview-making-games-of-this-type-is-really-really-hard-5730186/?hootPostID=34f57f59cdb3f4770edfc2f3a7b9940e
quote 1:
To answer your question about comparing ESO to other MMOs: ESO is not really a traditional MMO, so we don’t use that term much around the office – and it is this distinction that separates it from other games. If you want to play it solo, like you did with other Elder Scrolls games, you can do that. If you want to play it super-grindy with dungeons, Trials, and group bosses as the core of you experience, you can join up with others and do that too.
quote 2:
Again, we’re not really a traditional MMO, we are much more of a hybrid, kind of like an ‘online RPG’. The term MMO is freighted with a lot of pre-conceived notions, most of which are outdated and obsolete.
quote 3:
Our bigger challenge has been to educate players that we are not a traditional 2004-style MMO and much more an expansive online Elder Scrolls RPG.
So you can believe it now or not, but ignorance does not change the facts - I am heading back to bed now.
4 -
AOECAPS✭✭✭✭It's an MMO. All quests/conent up until level cap are basically a tutorial. End game stuff is where the challenge part takes off, or is atleast supposed too.
Tutorials are usually the easier part of the game.
Then you did not understand what ESO is about - what you call "tutorial" is the main content.
MMOs are all the same. I don't think you understand that.
Same style of quests. Same type of leveling and progression involved. You can sugar coat it how you want. But it's still an MMO. And in MMOs generally, all content until end game is basically a tutorial. The only difference here is the content in ESO is pretty much available at any point. Doesn't mean the difficulty stays the same.
You really don't understand the motivation behind ESO - sorry, but ESO is not the typical MMO, it is an expansive online Elder Scrolls RPG - ask Mr. Firor, he said it very clearly. You can ignore that of course, but it will not change to where ESO is heading.
I will ignore it indeed.
It's pretty obvious why they would stray away from the term MMO and call it an Online Rpg instead.
Propaganda.
How could Zeni distinguish themselves if they called themselves an MMO?
They can't.
They know in terms of customers and profit, their direct competitor (WoW) is clearly winning the MMO war.
This is probably how it went down in the marketing department.
"So, let's call it an Online RPG. More people love RPGs than MMOS, right?
"So, let's pull the noobies in who hate MMOs, yet love RPGS, even though it's literally a reskin of every other fantasy mmo!" "Great Idea!"
"Ahahahaha and let's use the Elder Scrolls title too!"
"C.R.E.A.M son!"
"Dollar dollar bills yalllll"
This is an MMO. Whether you like it or not.
"NOOOOOOOO"
I understand your love for the game. I get that. But please don't force feed jargen down my throat. I'm stating my opinion, respect that.
I've been playing MMOs for 20+ years and this one is literally no different in terms of experience as a low level player and a capped player. The Main Story is always the guideline for progressing to end game. This game is no different.
Any who-
Content is easy because it serves the many, over the few. More noobies in this game than there are experts.
Actually,you need to respect Lysette's opinon as well.She has hers,as you have yours.And that is ALL it is,your opinion.Not fact. You keep saying that whether she likes it or not it IS an MMO. Just because you say it is doesnt mean it is. You should have said that in your "opinion" this game is an MMO.
And Mr Firor says his game isnt a traditional MMO,so it isnt.
Tell him that you say it is and he is wrong.See if he listens to you.
You're defending her opinion yet belittling mine? This forum is 99.9% opinion anyways.
Biased much or what? Double standards? Hmm
Anywho, rock on man. Do your thing.
I'm not belittling you.I am just telling you that her opinion is just as valid as yours is.You each have your own.Get it? The issue for both of you is whether this is an MMO or not,and Mr Firor said it isnt. He s hould know. It's not,..in the traditional sense. I dont think any less of you for your opinion,but you need to understand that it is really only an opinion,as is Lysette's.
If Mr Firor hadnt said what he did about the game,there wouldnt be an issue about it.
I am not belittling you,really.
You do realize that they are branding themselves as an online RPGs instead of an MMO because 1) wow is #1 2)works better with console kiddies which equates to $$$$$
At the end of the day it's an MMO
It's about manipulating the dialogue to work for you just like being pro choice it sounds better than saying anti life and pro life saying that instead of anti abortion both of the latter have negative conotstions tied to them and effect people's way of thinking 1 way or the other you should read a book called Words that Work you will then see it's all about what you say2 -
Volkodav✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's an MMO. All quests/conent up until level cap are basically a tutorial. End game stuff is where the challenge part takes off, or is atleast supposed too.
Tutorials are usually the easier part of the game.
Then you did not understand what ESO is about - what you call "tutorial" is the main content.
MMOs are all the same. I don't think you understand that.
Same style of quests. Same type of leveling and progression involved. You can sugar coat it how you want. But it's still an MMO. And in MMOs generally, all content until end game is basically a tutorial. The only difference here is the content in ESO is pretty much available at any point. Doesn't mean the difficulty stays the same.
You really don't understand the motivation behind ESO - sorry, but ESO is not the typical MMO, it is an expansive online Elder Scrolls RPG - ask Mr. Firor, he said it very clearly. You can ignore that of course, but it will not change to where ESO is heading.
I will ignore it indeed.
It's pretty obvious why they would stray away from the term MMO and call it an Online Rpg instead.
Propaganda.
How could Zeni distinguish themselves if they called themselves an MMO?
They can't.
They know in terms of customers and profit, their direct competitor (WoW) is clearly winning the MMO war.
This is probably how it went down in the marketing department.
"So, let's call it an Online RPG. More people love RPGs than MMOS, right?
"So, let's pull the noobies in who hate MMOs, yet love RPGS, even though it's literally a reskin of every other fantasy mmo!" "Great Idea!"
"Ahahahaha and let's use the Elder Scrolls title too!"
"C.R.E.A.M son!"
"Dollar dollar bills yalllll"
This is an MMO. Whether you like it or not.
"NOOOOOOOO"
I understand your love for the game. I get that. But please don't force feed jargen down my throat. I'm stating my opinion, respect that.
I've been playing MMOs for 20+ years and this one is literally no different in terms of experience as a low level player and a capped player. The Main Story is always the guideline for progressing to end game. This game is no different.
Any who-
Content is easy because it serves the many, over the few. More noobies in this game than there are experts.
Actually,you need to respect Lysette's opinon as well.She has hers,as you have yours.And that is ALL it is,your opinion.Not fact. You keep saying that whether she likes it or not it IS an MMO. Just because you say it is doesnt mean it is. You should have said that in your "opinion" this game is an MMO.
And Mr Firor says his game isnt a traditional MMO,so it isnt.
Tell him that you say it is and he is wrong.See if he listens to you.
You're defending her opinion yet belittling mine? This forum is 99.9% opinion anyways.
Biased much or what? Double standards? Hmm
Anywho, rock on man. Do your thing.
I'm not belittling you.I am just telling you that her opinion is just as valid as yours is.You each have your own.Get it? The issue for both of you is whether this is an MMO or not,and Mr Firor said it isnt. He s hould know. It's not,..in the traditional sense. I dont think any less of you for your opinion,but you need to understand that it is really only an opinion,as is Lysette's.
If Mr Firor hadnt said what he did about the game,there wouldnt be an issue about it.
I am not belittling you,really.
You do realize that they are branding themselves as an online RPGs instead of an MMO because 1) wow is #1 2)works better with console kiddies which equates to $$$$$
At the end of the day it's an MMO
It's about manipulating the dialogue to work for you just like being pro choice it sounds better than saying anti life and pro life saying that instead of anti abortion both of the latter have negative conotstions tied to them and effect people's way of thinking 1 way or the other you should read a book called Words that Work you will then see it's all about what you say
I didnt say that it isnt an MMO,Mr Firor did.Read Lysette's comment just above here.She quotes him.
Of course it's about the words.While there are some MMOs that arent RPGs either. I know this is an MMO,but it isnt a "traditional" one,as has been said.
All that we're doing here is arguing semantics.
Simple word play.Nothing more.
What one says is truth differs from what the other one says is truth.It's all relative in the end.1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The Uninvited wrote: »The Uninvited wrote: »The Uninvited wrote: »Why is it easy and getting easier? Because it's an MMO, and this is how MMOs are now. They want the most amount of people to be able to play (and pay) their game. If content is too challenging (like most people thought of this game at launch) people will leave.
Why risk not having the highest number of players by having challenging content when they could (if they wanted and I wish they would) add in 'nightmare' versions of dungeons and raids. Level up via easy content, progress at max level with nightmare content. Let's just hope ZoS decides to go this route down the road. If everything is too easy, you get the same effect as things being too hard (but on a much smaller scale. the ratio of casuals : elites massively favours the casuals in every MMO)
Ya know,this is a very good idea.I have played games that have a slider for difficulty,or that even have buttons to hit for easy,normal,and hard. The Witcher has that,for an e xample.
Yes, but that is a SINGLE PLAYER game... name other major MMOs that have a difficulty slider? I would say it is impossible because you'd be adjusting content for every single player, ZOS has trouble in Cyrodiil because of the number of calculations that need to be made. Imagine going to a PvE dark anchor and now suddenly the game needs to adjust monsters difficulty for each and every player fighting at the anchor, same with group bosses, etc. It just wouldn't work. Battle-leveling is as close as we'll see to individual adjustments.
I just said that it was a good idea.I didnt say the Witcher was an MMO.
And no need to post in CAPS,..I CAN SEE.
I think it would be cool if the idea would work.I didnt even say it would.
Why shouldn't it be possible - it could be like in other TES games - "very easy" player does double damage, enemies half damage - "very hard" player does half damage, enemý double damage - and "extreme mode" comes with debuffs to speed and an insane decay of armor and weapons.
As I said, the amount of calculations it would have to make would probably be insane, and as we've seen in Cyrodiil, the game cannot handle the amount of calculations it already has to do and that area is battle-leveled. If it were so easy, other MMOs would be doing it, but none are... so clearly it isn't as easy as people like to make it sound.
Nah, that is not an effort at all - those are multipliers, which are anyway applied when scaling is happening. It is not a drain on performance at all. The reason why they don't do it, is as well pretty obvious - look how MMO players think - they want to be the best and have best gear - no one would willingly make himself up to 4 times weaker than the next guy in PvP. They could easily be weaker as well now already - just do not use VR gear, but normal stuff and not buff themselves with all kind of fancy food and champion points - then it would be challenging - but they do not want challeging - they just say they would - but in reality this is just their way to say "I am a 1337, whereas you suck at it" - that is what they mean, when they say "it is too easy".
That's simply not true. I'll just quote myself from another topic here:
I remember when 1.5 update came out and dungeons suddenly seemed harder and more difficult than before. Back than I was wearing dropped green/blue gear (not even complete set items) and playing in first person. AND we didn't have Champion Points! Not sure, but if I'm not mistaken soft caps were still in the game too.
It changed a lot for me. I had to rethink my skills, learn to play in third person, craft my own gear and have better situational awareness. It made me a better player and I liked that!
That's what gaming is about to me. You try, learn, try again and beat content that you considered too hard before simply because you didn't know everything yet.
And that's what we are asking for. Content that has a learning curve, to keep it interesting.
Try it without armor, then it will be challenging - or not?- What about without high level food, but just normal food?- What about with an average weapon instead of high level gear. There are so many ways to do it with more options than that all have pretty much the same endgame gear - if you want challenging, you can do that yourself - so I doubt, you seriously wánt that.
Edit: or apply just half of your skill points and half of your stats points and half of your champion points, and try it then - I really doubt those claiming to want it challenging would even dare to have a real challenge. If they would, they could already - just like I said it above.
That's a backwards perspective. Just saying you should gimp yourself to make it challenging is not the right way to go in my opinion. That's like saying to ZOS: Thanks for all the hard work you did with creating those end game gear sets, but we don't use them.
You did use them, but now you complain about difficulty - but did you try a hybrid build and apply less points than you have?- I guess, no, because all what you want is just be one of those with endgame gear - like anyone else - this is not heroic at all, a hero is a an average guy with courage, not the top player with the best gear and max amount of skill points. If you want a challenge and be a hero, be an average guy with courage instead of OP weaponry and armor.
You keep talking to me like you know me. What I'm talking about is this:
Start of the game as a noob
Practice and learn to overcome somewhat difficult content
Earn better gear to complete next harder content
Practice and learn to overcome harder content
Earn better gear to complete super hard content
Practice and learn to overcome super hard content
This is what I like and what gaming is for me. Right now, we're at a stand still because there's no new super hard content except for vMoL.
All of this wouldn't be a problem if they gave us two new dungeons like vWGT and vICP were in the beginning. But they didn't.
At some point you just have to get over the idea that the content isnt working for you.The top end will always be limited because ZOS wont just keep making things harder and harder to suit some people,while leaving out the majority of people who arent able to do it.
They want to keep their players from leaving because it is too hard for them.Most people arent into all that stuff about the best gear,best stats,and higher and higher challenges.Some are,but not the majority.
Which is why we don't even ask for the overall content to be made harder.
We'd just like to have at last ONE challenging small group instance in the game
Well, there are games, which found a solution for this urge for a real challenge - to opt into perma-death - if you ever get killed, that was it - you loose your character - really challenging. Is that what you want?- A real scary challenge?
Edit: could be as well a milder version of it - like not being able to play this character for a week. Then death would have consequences, and it would be a challenge and change the way in which you play. End of rinse and repeat combat with immediate respawn.
That doesn't make the content challenging. It makes the punishment for failure punitive. The difference is very real. If I could not play my character for a week because a poison plant burst under the shield bubble on the Argonian Boss fight in vet Maelstrom, I would uninstall the game and play something else.
If I am actually trying content that is challenging, then I need immediate respawn because the content is hard and thus requires that I practice it and become familiar with it. I don't know if you ever tried SO back when it first came out, when the best raid groups would wipe in under 60 seconds against the Mantikora. If SO was "scary" in that matter you suggest, we'd still probably be waiting for someone to beat it.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭x5ofspadez wrote: »I know alot of it is the power creep, however it feels like things are getting ever easier. The only "challenging" 4 player content in the game is getting nerfed, (as of PTS 2.4.0) and honestly it feels like if anything they should be getting buffed.
I cant be the only one who thinks this way.
I agree, but rather give new or inexperience something to strive to beat, and feel a sense of accomplishment about. They're going to dumb it down.
Long story short: the content is easy in order to appease bad players.0 -
AOECAPS✭✭✭✭It's an MMO. All quests/conent up until level cap are basically a tutorial. End game stuff is where the challenge part takes off, or is atleast supposed too.
Tutorials are usually the easier part of the game.
Then you did not understand what ESO is about - what you call "tutorial" is the main content.
MMOs are all the same. I don't think you understand that.
Same style of quests. Same type of leveling and progression involved. You can sugar coat it how you want. But it's still an MMO. And in MMOs generally, all content until end game is basically a tutorial. The only difference here is the content in ESO is pretty much available at any point. Doesn't mean the difficulty stays the same.
You really don't understand the motivation behind ESO - sorry, but ESO is not the typical MMO, it is an expansive online Elder Scrolls RPG - ask Mr. Firor, he said it very clearly. You can ignore that of course, but it will not change to where ESO is heading.
I will ignore it indeed.
It's pretty obvious why they would stray away from the term MMO and call it an Online Rpg instead.
Propaganda.
How could Zeni distinguish themselves if they called themselves an MMO?
They can't.
They know in terms of customers and profit, their direct competitor (WoW) is clearly winning the MMO war.
This is probably how it went down in the marketing department.
"So, let's call it an Online RPG. More people love RPGs than MMOS, right?
"So, let's pull the noobies in who hate MMOs, yet love RPGS, even though it's literally a reskin of every other fantasy mmo!" "Great Idea!"
"Ahahahaha and let's use the Elder Scrolls title too!"
"C.R.E.A.M son!"
"Dollar dollar bills yalllll"
This is an MMO. Whether you like it or not.
"NOOOOOOOO"
I understand your love for the game. I get that. But please don't force feed jargen down my throat. I'm stating my opinion, respect that.
I've been playing MMOs for 20+ years and this one is literally no different in terms of experience as a low level player and a capped player. The Main Story is always the guideline for progressing to end game. This game is no different.
Any who-
Content is easy because it serves the many, over the few. More noobies in this game than there are experts.
Actually,you need to respect Lysette's opinon as well.She has hers,as you have yours.And that is ALL it is,your opinion.Not fact. You keep saying that whether she likes it or not it IS an MMO. Just because you say it is doesnt mean it is. You should have said that in your "opinion" this game is an MMO.
And Mr Firor says his game isnt a traditional MMO,so it isnt.
Tell him that you say it is and he is wrong.See if he listens to you.
You're defending her opinion yet belittling mine? This forum is 99.9% opinion anyways.
Biased much or what? Double standards? Hmm
Anywho, rock on man. Do your thing.
I'm not belittling you.I am just telling you that her opinion is just as valid as yours is.You each have your own.Get it? The issue for both of you is whether this is an MMO or not,and Mr Firor said it isnt. He s hould know. It's not,..in the traditional sense. I dont think any less of you for your opinion,but you need to understand that it is really only an opinion,as is Lysette's.
If Mr Firor hadnt said what he did about the game,there wouldnt be an issue about it.
I am not belittling you,really.
You do realize that they are branding themselves as an online RPGs instead of an MMO because 1) wow is #1 2)works better with console kiddies which equates to $$$$$
At the end of the day it's an MMO
It's about manipulating the dialogue to work for you just like being pro choice it sounds better than saying anti life and pro life saying that instead of anti abortion both of the latter have negative conotstions tied to them and effect people's way of thinking 1 way or the other you should read a book called Words that Work you will then see it's all about what you say
I didnt say that it isnt an MMO,Mr Firor did.Read Lysette's comment just above here.She quotes him.
Of course it's about the words.While there are some MMOs that arent RPGs either. I know this is an MMO,but it isnt a "traditional" one,as has been said.
All that we're doing here is arguing semantics.
Simple word play.Nothing more.
What one says is truth differs from what the other one says is truth.It's all relative in the end.
He said it's not really an MMO in the traditional sense it's still an MMO he chose his words wisely man but talking to you is like talking to a wall. Go white knight somewhere else an Online rpg is destiny,the division Diablo.0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭All MMO means is a lot of people all play it together. This is a MMORPG. People always forget the RPG part. The main part of the game and the main focus is PVE. Story driven PVE. Thats what he is trying to say. This isnt WoW. We dont have an auction house. The game works drastically different. All you typical stuff other MMORPGs have ESO does not.
What he should have said is its not just a WoW clone. Its a deep game with a great story. Everything about it is different from how WoW works.4 -
Sausage✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thats how MMORPG works. Players become stronger and content become easier. I never understood it myself really as it causes all kind of problems but I suppose devs like problems.1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »The Uninvited wrote: »The Uninvited wrote: »The Uninvited wrote: »Why is it easy and getting easier? Because it's an MMO, and this is how MMOs are now. They want the most amount of people to be able to play (and pay) their game. If content is too challenging (like most people thought of this game at launch) people will leave.
Why risk not having the highest number of players by having challenging content when they could (if they wanted and I wish they would) add in 'nightmare' versions of dungeons and raids. Level up via easy content, progress at max level with nightmare content. Let's just hope ZoS decides to go this route down the road. If everything is too easy, you get the same effect as things being too hard (but on a much smaller scale. the ratio of casuals : elites massively favours the casuals in every MMO)
Ya know,this is a very good idea.I have played games that have a slider for difficulty,or that even have buttons to hit for easy,normal,and hard. The Witcher has that,for an e xample.
Yes, but that is a SINGLE PLAYER game... name other major MMOs that have a difficulty slider? I would say it is impossible because you'd be adjusting content for every single player, ZOS has trouble in Cyrodiil because of the number of calculations that need to be made. Imagine going to a PvE dark anchor and now suddenly the game needs to adjust monsters difficulty for each and every player fighting at the anchor, same with group bosses, etc. It just wouldn't work. Battle-leveling is as close as we'll see to individual adjustments.
I just said that it was a good idea.I didnt say the Witcher was an MMO.
And no need to post in CAPS,..I CAN SEE.
I think it would be cool if the idea would work.I didnt even say it would.
Why shouldn't it be possible - it could be like in other TES games - "very easy" player does double damage, enemies half damage - "very hard" player does half damage, enemý double damage - and "extreme mode" comes with debuffs to speed and an insane decay of armor and weapons.
As I said, the amount of calculations it would have to make would probably be insane, and as we've seen in Cyrodiil, the game cannot handle the amount of calculations it already has to do and that area is battle-leveled. If it were so easy, other MMOs would be doing it, but none are... so clearly it isn't as easy as people like to make it sound.
Nah, that is not an effort at all - those are multipliers, which are anyway applied when scaling is happening. It is not a drain on performance at all. The reason why they don't do it, is as well pretty obvious - look how MMO players think - they want to be the best and have best gear - no one would willingly make himself up to 4 times weaker than the next guy in PvP. They could easily be weaker as well now already - just do not use VR gear, but normal stuff and not buff themselves with all kind of fancy food and champion points - then it would be challenging - but they do not want challeging - they just say they would - but in reality this is just their way to say "I am a 1337, whereas you suck at it" - that is what they mean, when they say "it is too easy".
That's simply not true. I'll just quote myself from another topic here:
I remember when 1.5 update came out and dungeons suddenly seemed harder and more difficult than before. Back than I was wearing dropped green/blue gear (not even complete set items) and playing in first person. AND we didn't have Champion Points! Not sure, but if I'm not mistaken soft caps were still in the game too.
It changed a lot for me. I had to rethink my skills, learn to play in third person, craft my own gear and have better situational awareness. It made me a better player and I liked that!
That's what gaming is about to me. You try, learn, try again and beat content that you considered too hard before simply because you didn't know everything yet.
And that's what we are asking for. Content that has a learning curve, to keep it interesting.
Try it without armor, then it will be challenging - or not?- What about without high level food, but just normal food?- What about with an average weapon instead of high level gear. There are so many ways to do it with more options than that all have pretty much the same endgame gear - if you want challenging, you can do that yourself - so I doubt, you seriously wánt that.
Edit: or apply just half of your skill points and half of your stats points and half of your champion points, and try it then - I really doubt those claiming to want it challenging would even dare to have a real challenge. If they would, they could already - just like I said it above.
That's a backwards perspective. Just saying you should gimp yourself to make it challenging is not the right way to go in my opinion. That's like saying to ZOS: Thanks for all the hard work you did with creating those end game gear sets, but we don't use them.
You did use them, but now you complain about difficulty - but did you try a hybrid build and apply less points than you have?- I guess, no, because all what you want is just be one of those with endgame gear - like anyone else - this is not heroic at all, a hero is a an average guy with courage, not the top player with the best gear and max amount of skill points. If you want a challenge and be a hero, be an average guy with courage instead of OP weaponry and armor.
You keep talking to me like you know me. What I'm talking about is this:
Start of the game as a noob
Practice and learn to overcome somewhat difficult content
Earn better gear to complete next harder content
Practice and learn to overcome harder content
Earn better gear to complete super hard content
Practice and learn to overcome super hard content
This is what I like and what gaming is for me. Right now, we're at a stand still because there's no new super hard content except for vMoL.
All of this wouldn't be a problem if they gave us two new dungeons like vWGT and vICP were in the beginning. But they didn't.
At some point you just have to get over the idea that the content isnt working for you.The top end will always be limited because ZOS wont just keep making things harder and harder to suit some people,while leaving out the majority of people who arent able to do it.
They want to keep their players from leaving because it is too hard for them.Most people arent into all that stuff about the best gear,best stats,and higher and higher challenges.Some are,but not the majority.
Which is why we don't even ask for the overall content to be made harder.
We'd just like to have at last ONE challenging small group instance in the game
Well, there are games, which found a solution for this urge for a real challenge - to opt into perma-death - if you ever get killed, that was it - you loose your character - really challenging. Is that what you want?- A real scary challenge?
Edit: could be as well a milder version of it - like not being able to play this character for a week. Then death would have consequences, and it would be a challenge and change the way in which you play. End of rinse and repeat combat with immediate respawn.
That doesn't make the content challenging. It makes the punishment for failure punitive. The difference is very real. If I could not play my character for a week because a poison plant burst under the shield bubble on the Argonian Boss fight in vet Maelstrom, I would uninstall the game and play something else.
If I am actually trying content that is challenging, then I need immediate respawn because the content is hard and thus requires that I practice it and become familiar with it. I don't know if you ever tried SO back when it first came out, when the best raid groups would wipe in under 60 seconds against the Mantikora. If SO was "scary" in that matter you suggest, we'd still probably be waiting for someone to beat it.
If you think that the content is challenging, this was not addressed to you. I addressed that suggestion to those, who think the content, which is meant to be challenging, is "too easy" for them. I bet they are not up for a challenge like this at all, simply because they cannot beat it reliably - and in this case they contradicted themselves - it is not "too easy" or at least not for them.Edited by Lysette on May 2, 2016 6:44AM0 -
The Uninvited✭✭✭✭✭
✭The Uninvited wrote: »Why is it easy and getting easier? Because it's an MMO, and this is how MMOs are now. They want the most amount of people to be able to play (and pay) their game. If content is too challenging (like most people thought of this game at launch) people will leave.
Why risk not having the highest number of players by having challenging content when they could (if they wanted and I wish they would) add in 'nightmare' versions of dungeons and raids. Level up via easy content, progress at max level with nightmare content. Let's just hope ZoS decides to go this route down the road. If everything is too easy, you get the same effect as things being too hard (but on a much smaller scale. the ratio of casuals : elites massively favours the casuals in every MMO)
Ya know,this is a very good idea.I have played games that have a slider for difficulty,or that even have buttons to hit for easy,normal,and hard. The Witcher has that,for an e xample.
Yes, but that is a SINGLE PLAYER game... name other major MMOs that have a difficulty slider? I would say it is impossible because you'd be adjusting content for every single player, ZOS has trouble in Cyrodiil because of the number of calculations that need to be made. Imagine going to a PvE dark anchor and now suddenly the game needs to adjust monsters difficulty for each and every player fighting at the anchor, same with group bosses, etc. It just wouldn't work. Battle-leveling is as close as we'll see to individual adjustments.
I just said that it was a good idea.I didnt say the Witcher was an MMO.
And no need to post in CAPS,..I CAN SEE.
I think it would be cool if the idea would work.I didnt even say it would.
Why shouldn't it be possible - it could be like in other TES games - "very easy" player does double damage, enemies half damage - "very hard" player does half damage, enemý double damage - and "extreme mode" comes with debuffs to speed and an insane decay of armor and weapons.
As I said, the amount of calculations it would have to make would probably be insane, and as we've seen in Cyrodiil, the game cannot handle the amount of calculations it already has to do and that area is battle-leveled. If it were so easy, other MMOs would be doing it, but none are... so clearly it isn't as easy as people like to make it sound.
Nah, that is not an effort at all - those are multipliers, which are anyway applied when scaling is happening. It is not a drain on performance at all. The reason why they don't do it, is as well pretty obvious - look how MMO players think - they want to be the best and have best gear - no one would willingly make himself up to 4 times weaker than the next guy in PvP. They could easily be weaker as well now already - just do not use VR gear, but normal stuff and not buff themselves with all kind of fancy food and champion points - then it would be challenging - but they do not want challeging - they just say they would - but in reality this is just their way to say "I am a 1337, whereas you suck at it" - that is what they mean, when they say "it is too easy".
That's simply not true. I'll just quote myself from another topic here:
I remember when 1.5 update came out and dungeons suddenly seemed harder and more difficult than before. Back than I was wearing dropped green/blue gear (not even complete set items) and playing in first person. AND we didn't have Champion Points! Not sure, but if I'm not mistaken soft caps were still in the game too.
It changed a lot for me. I had to rethink my skills, learn to play in third person, craft my own gear and have better situational awareness. It made me a better player and I liked that!
That's what gaming is about to me. You try, learn, try again and beat content that you considered too hard before simply because you didn't know everything yet.
And that's what we are asking for. Content that has a learning curve, to keep it interesting.
Try it without armor, then it will be challenging - or not?- What about without high level food, but just normal food?- What about with an average weapon instead of high level gear. There are so many ways to do it with more options than that all have pretty much the same endgame gear - if you want challenging, you can do that yourself - so I doubt, you seriously wánt that.
Edit: or apply just half of your skill points and half of your stats points and half of your champion points, and try it then - I really doubt those claiming to want it challenging would even dare to have a real challenge. If they would, they could already - just like I said it above.
I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but it's not the first time I see those type of comments and I find them seriously...okay how to make it sound nice lol...I know everyone's entitled to their opinion but I think this point of view is very wrong and very harmful(for the general longevity of the game; or you could say any community in general).
You're basically saying progress is useless. Try to become better? Why? You can just complain and have what you want given to you. If you want a challenge, why don't you gimp yourself and create the challenge instead, right? It's like saying progress is bad, it's useless, and if you still want to have challenge you should just learn to regress. Don't try to make yourself better/strong, it's useless. Make yourself weaker. Don't use the advantages you've earned.
Instead of encouraging people to strive for something better, to make progress, it's discouraging them from doing so. How can this be seen as a positive thing?!
I don't want to enjoy the game by gimping the character(s) I spent so much time on. However I do already try to create myself challenging by 2 manning and soloing content designed for 4 people and 4-7 manning content designed for 12. And let me tell you, current SO is ridiculously easy for 6-7 people, and 2 manning most vet dungeons ends up in both speedrun and no death these days. Working on naked vWGT right now.
It's like if, Idk, let's say there's a mountain skiing resort and you know there're different kinds of slopes there, from easiest to hardest? They mark the hardest as black on maps and they're not for newbies in skiing/snowboarding. It's like people are asking for the black slope to be removed because they can't ski there without falling repeatedly, and just tell expert ski-ers who can to tie their legs together or try skiing without skis/just one ski if they want a challenge. That's...I can't even begin to grasp this logic o_O
My sentiments exactly.Pandora's Promise (rip) | LND | Pactriotic | IKnowWhatUDidLastWinter's | The Uninvited |
Ride the paranoia | All life is pain | Only the grave is real0 -
The Uninvited✭✭✭✭✭
✭The Uninvited wrote: »The Uninvited wrote: »The Uninvited wrote: »Why is it easy and getting easier? Because it's an MMO, and this is how MMOs are now. They want the most amount of people to be able to play (and pay) their game. If content is too challenging (like most people thought of this game at launch) people will leave.
Why risk not having the highest number of players by having challenging content when they could (if they wanted and I wish they would) add in 'nightmare' versions of dungeons and raids. Level up via easy content, progress at max level with nightmare content. Let's just hope ZoS decides to go this route down the road. If everything is too easy, you get the same effect as things being too hard (but on a much smaller scale. the ratio of casuals : elites massively favours the casuals in every MMO)
Ya know,this is a very good idea.I have played games that have a slider for difficulty,or that even have buttons to hit for easy,normal,and hard. The Witcher has that,for an e xample.
Yes, but that is a SINGLE PLAYER game... name other major MMOs that have a difficulty slider? I would say it is impossible because you'd be adjusting content for every single player, ZOS has trouble in Cyrodiil because of the number of calculations that need to be made. Imagine going to a PvE dark anchor and now suddenly the game needs to adjust monsters difficulty for each and every player fighting at the anchor, same with group bosses, etc. It just wouldn't work. Battle-leveling is as close as we'll see to individual adjustments.
I just said that it was a good idea.I didnt say the Witcher was an MMO.
And no need to post in CAPS,..I CAN SEE.
I think it would be cool if the idea would work.I didnt even say it would.
Why shouldn't it be possible - it could be like in other TES games - "very easy" player does double damage, enemies half damage - "very hard" player does half damage, enemý double damage - and "extreme mode" comes with debuffs to speed and an insane decay of armor and weapons.
As I said, the amount of calculations it would have to make would probably be insane, and as we've seen in Cyrodiil, the game cannot handle the amount of calculations it already has to do and that area is battle-leveled. If it were so easy, other MMOs would be doing it, but none are... so clearly it isn't as easy as people like to make it sound.
Nah, that is not an effort at all - those are multipliers, which are anyway applied when scaling is happening. It is not a drain on performance at all. The reason why they don't do it, is as well pretty obvious - look how MMO players think - they want to be the best and have best gear - no one would willingly make himself up to 4 times weaker than the next guy in PvP. They could easily be weaker as well now already - just do not use VR gear, but normal stuff and not buff themselves with all kind of fancy food and champion points - then it would be challenging - but they do not want challeging - they just say they would - but in reality this is just their way to say "I am a 1337, whereas you suck at it" - that is what they mean, when they say "it is too easy".
That's simply not true. I'll just quote myself from another topic here:
I remember when 1.5 update came out and dungeons suddenly seemed harder and more difficult than before. Back than I was wearing dropped green/blue gear (not even complete set items) and playing in first person. AND we didn't have Champion Points! Not sure, but if I'm not mistaken soft caps were still in the game too.
It changed a lot for me. I had to rethink my skills, learn to play in third person, craft my own gear and have better situational awareness. It made me a better player and I liked that!
That's what gaming is about to me. You try, learn, try again and beat content that you considered too hard before simply because you didn't know everything yet.
And that's what we are asking for. Content that has a learning curve, to keep it interesting.
Try it without armor, then it will be challenging - or not?- What about without high level food, but just normal food?- What about with an average weapon instead of high level gear. There are so many ways to do it with more options than that all have pretty much the same endgame gear - if you want challenging, you can do that yourself - so I doubt, you seriously wánt that.
Edit: or apply just half of your skill points and half of your stats points and half of your champion points, and try it then - I really doubt those claiming to want it challenging would even dare to have a real challenge. If they would, they could already - just like I said it above.
That's a backwards perspective. Just saying you should gimp yourself to make it challenging is not the right way to go in my opinion. That's like saying to ZOS: Thanks for all the hard work you did with creating those end game gear sets, but we don't use them.
You did use them, but now you complain about difficulty - but did you try a hybrid build and apply less points than you have?- I guess, no, because all what you want is just be one of those with endgame gear - like anyone else - this is not heroic at all, a hero is a an average guy with courage, not the top player with the best gear and max amount of skill points. If you want a challenge and be a hero, be an average guy with courage instead of OP weaponry and armor.
You keep talking to me like you know me. What I'm talking about is this:
Start of the game as a noob
Practice and learn to overcome somewhat difficult content
Earn better gear to complete next harder content
Practice and learn to overcome harder content
Earn better gear to complete super hard content
Practice and learn to overcome super hard content
This is what I like and what gaming is for me. Right now, we're at a stand still because there's no new super hard content except for vMoL.
All of this wouldn't be a problem if they gave us two new dungeons like vWGT and vICP were in the beginning. But they didn't.
At some point you just have to get over the idea that the content isnt working for you.The top end will always be limited because ZOS wont just keep making things harder and harder to suit some people,while leaving out the majority of people who arent able to do it.
They want to keep their players from leaving because it is too hard for them.Most people arent into all that stuff about the best gear,best stats,and higher and higher challenges.Some are,but not the majority.
I can understand that, but at the same time players are leaving because they think the game is too easy. It works both ways and I guess it's hard to find balance in that for developers.Pandora's Promise (rip) | LND | Pactriotic | IKnowWhatUDidLastWinter's | The Uninvited |
Ride the paranoia | All life is pain | Only the grave is real0 -
Flynch✭✭✭✭You could have 3 tiers of difficulty available inside the same server-phase. Indicated next to the difficulty would be the average population of the server using it (not numerically, but as a statement)
So for instance, the towns are phased as normal (so everyone can be seen) then outside of that phased region (in the open world) you can open a challenge menu and see:
easy (low)
medium(high)
hard(medium)
So the player can choose which difficulty they would like, while being aware that one tier may be more populated than another etc0 -
The Uninvited✭✭✭✭✭
✭You could have 3 tiers of difficulty available inside the same server-phase. Indicated next to the difficulty would be the average population of the server using it (not numerically, but as a statement)
So for instance, the towns are phased as normal (so everyone can be seen) then outside of that phased region (in the open world) you can open a challenge menu and see:
easy (low)
medium(high)
hard(medium)
So the player can choose which difficulty they would like, while being aware that one tier may be more populated than another etc
Something like that would indeed be great and has been suggested in similar words before. But I think open world questing is fine, it's the dungeons or trials that keep the end game players playing.
I don't always agree with @Nifty2g but I think his "nightmare mode" idea would be great for the game: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/216675/concept-eso-pve-nightmare-heroic-mode
It wouldn't change anything for the regular players and would keep both parties happy.Pandora's Promise (rip) | LND | Pactriotic | IKnowWhatUDidLastWinter's | The Uninvited |
Ride the paranoia | All life is pain | Only the grave is real1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »The Uninvited wrote: »The Uninvited wrote: »The Uninvited wrote: »Why is it easy and getting easier? Because it's an MMO, and this is how MMOs are now. They want the most amount of people to be able to play (and pay) their game. If content is too challenging (like most people thought of this game at launch) people will leave.
Why risk not having the highest number of players by having challenging content when they could (if they wanted and I wish they would) add in 'nightmare' versions of dungeons and raids. Level up via easy content, progress at max level with nightmare content. Let's just hope ZoS decides to go this route down the road. If everything is too easy, you get the same effect as things being too hard (but on a much smaller scale. the ratio of casuals : elites massively favours the casuals in every MMO)
Ya know,this is a very good idea.I have played games that have a slider for difficulty,or that even have buttons to hit for easy,normal,and hard. The Witcher has that,for an e xample.
Yes, but that is a SINGLE PLAYER game... name other major MMOs that have a difficulty slider? I would say it is impossible because you'd be adjusting content for every single player, ZOS has trouble in Cyrodiil because of the number of calculations that need to be made. Imagine going to a PvE dark anchor and now suddenly the game needs to adjust monsters difficulty for each and every player fighting at the anchor, same with group bosses, etc. It just wouldn't work. Battle-leveling is as close as we'll see to individual adjustments.
I just said that it was a good idea.I didnt say the Witcher was an MMO.
And no need to post in CAPS,..I CAN SEE.
I think it would be cool if the idea would work.I didnt even say it would.
Why shouldn't it be possible - it could be like in other TES games - "very easy" player does double damage, enemies half damage - "very hard" player does half damage, enemý double damage - and "extreme mode" comes with debuffs to speed and an insane decay of armor and weapons.
As I said, the amount of calculations it would have to make would probably be insane, and as we've seen in Cyrodiil, the game cannot handle the amount of calculations it already has to do and that area is battle-leveled. If it were so easy, other MMOs would be doing it, but none are... so clearly it isn't as easy as people like to make it sound.
Nah, that is not an effort at all - those are multipliers, which are anyway applied when scaling is happening. It is not a drain on performance at all. The reason why they don't do it, is as well pretty obvious - look how MMO players think - they want to be the best and have best gear - no one would willingly make himself up to 4 times weaker than the next guy in PvP. They could easily be weaker as well now already - just do not use VR gear, but normal stuff and not buff themselves with all kind of fancy food and champion points - then it would be challenging - but they do not want challeging - they just say they would - but in reality this is just their way to say "I am a 1337, whereas you suck at it" - that is what they mean, when they say "it is too easy".
That's simply not true. I'll just quote myself from another topic here:
I remember when 1.5 update came out and dungeons suddenly seemed harder and more difficult than before. Back than I was wearing dropped green/blue gear (not even complete set items) and playing in first person. AND we didn't have Champion Points! Not sure, but if I'm not mistaken soft caps were still in the game too.
It changed a lot for me. I had to rethink my skills, learn to play in third person, craft my own gear and have better situational awareness. It made me a better player and I liked that!
That's what gaming is about to me. You try, learn, try again and beat content that you considered too hard before simply because you didn't know everything yet.
And that's what we are asking for. Content that has a learning curve, to keep it interesting.
Try it without armor, then it will be challenging - or not?- What about without high level food, but just normal food?- What about with an average weapon instead of high level gear. There are so many ways to do it with more options than that all have pretty much the same endgame gear - if you want challenging, you can do that yourself - so I doubt, you seriously wánt that.
Edit: or apply just half of your skill points and half of your stats points and half of your champion points, and try it then - I really doubt those claiming to want it challenging would even dare to have a real challenge. If they would, they could already - just like I said it above.
That's a backwards perspective. Just saying you should gimp yourself to make it challenging is not the right way to go in my opinion. That's like saying to ZOS: Thanks for all the hard work you did with creating those end game gear sets, but we don't use them.
You did use them, but now you complain about difficulty - but did you try a hybrid build and apply less points than you have?- I guess, no, because all what you want is just be one of those with endgame gear - like anyone else - this is not heroic at all, a hero is a an average guy with courage, not the top player with the best gear and max amount of skill points. If you want a challenge and be a hero, be an average guy with courage instead of OP weaponry and armor.
You keep talking to me like you know me. What I'm talking about is this:
Start of the game as a noob
Practice and learn to overcome somewhat difficult content
Earn better gear to complete next harder content
Practice and learn to overcome harder content
Earn better gear to complete super hard content
Practice and learn to overcome super hard content
This is what I like and what gaming is for me. Right now, we're at a stand still because there's no new super hard content except for vMoL.
All of this wouldn't be a problem if they gave us two new dungeons like vWGT and vICP were in the beginning. But they didn't.
At some point you just have to get over the idea that the content isnt working for you.The top end will always be limited because ZOS wont just keep making things harder and harder to suit some people,while leaving out the majority of people who arent able to do it.
They want to keep their players from leaving because it is too hard for them.Most people arent into all that stuff about the best gear,best stats,and higher and higher challenges.Some are,but not the majority.
Which is why we don't even ask for the overall content to be made harder.
We'd just like to have at last ONE challenging small group instance in the game
Well, there are games, which found a solution for this urge for a real challenge - to opt into perma-death - if you ever get killed, that was it - you loose your character - really challenging. Is that what you want?- A real scary challenge?
Edit: could be as well a milder version of it - like not being able to play this character for a week. Then death would have consequences, and it would be a challenge and change the way in which you play. End of rinse and repeat combat with immediate respawn.
That doesn't make the content challenging. It makes the punishment for failure punitive. The difference is very real. If I could not play my character for a week because a poison plant burst under the shield bubble on the Argonian Boss fight in vet Maelstrom, I would uninstall the game and play something else.
If I am actually trying content that is challenging, then I need immediate respawn because the content is hard and thus requires that I practice it and become familiar with it. I don't know if you ever tried SO back when it first came out, when the best raid groups would wipe in under 60 seconds against the Mantikora. If SO was "scary" in that matter you suggest, we'd still probably be waiting for someone to beat it.
If you think that the content is challenging, this was not addressed to you. I addressed that suggestion to those, who think the content, which is meant to be challenging, is "too easy" for them. I bet they are not up for a challenge like this at all, simply because they cannot beat it reliably - and in this case they contradicted themselves - it is not "too easy" or at least not for them.
That's the problem, I don't think the content is challenging any more. Making it "scary" with punitive death penalty does not increase the difficulty or make it more of a challenge. It's still the same fight, except now if I get killed by RNG or because some PuG made a mistake, I am being penalized for it by not being able to log in for a week going by your suggestion. The first time we did WGT, yeah we kept wiping to the Planar boss. Eventually we figured it out (because we didn't have to wait 1 week to try again) and now the boss is not a problem. That's kind of how things should work. Content is challenging. Players die when first confronted with it. Content remains the same. Eventually players adapt with better tactics and builds to overcome said challenge. There's no contradiction here. Just because the content is hard at first to the uninitiated doesn't mean it remains hard as players get stronger and more experienced.
I don;t understand what the problem is with having dungeons with different levels of difficulty to match the diversity of player population in the ESO community.Edited by Joy_Division on May 2, 2016 2:16PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.3 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Personally I would prefer to be challenged by enemy guilds, their organization and their best players. Not by leaderboards and scores...
PvE should challenge a gamers progression abilities, the strength of his gear and Lv, his social and teamwork skills. It should challenge his to explore it and reward him/her with good times and memories. Not titles and repetition.
Tell me really? Can you recollect good times with this separeted PvP from PvE?
Anything that can be completed in a day is easy. A journey can't be completed in a day. But it's more rewarding.
But this is a roleplaying game with online connection. I'll get the most fun out of what it is and move on with my journey as a fantasy warrior.0 -
Junkogen✭✭✭✭✭Play without champion points. There are ways to make the game harder without them having to do it for you. You know a difficulty slider would only do about the same thing as playing without champion points or with broken armor. Start a guild that does content without armor or something. There are champion point free PvP areas. Try PvE without it.1 -
Tomg999✭✭✭✭[/quote]
I don;t understand what the problem is with having dungeons with different levels of difficulty to match the diversity of player population in the ESO community. [/quote]
This is why I have always been against the new scaling that is spreading throughout the game.
On levels 1-50, it is easy to travel around and adjust the amount of challenge I can handle or feel like. There is always a location above or below my "current" level to play in.0 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Play without champion points. There are ways to make the game harder without them having to do it for you. You know a difficulty slider would only do about the same thing as playing without champion points or with broken armor. Start a guild that does content without armor or something. There are champion point free PvP areas. Try PvE without it.
I'm going to quote what I said above because it sums up my opinion on this suggestion.It's like if, Idk, let's say there's a mountain skiing resort and you know there're different kinds of slopes there, from easiest to hardest? They mark the hardest as black on maps and they're not for newbies in skiing/snowboarding. It's like people are asking for the black slope to be removed because they can't ski there without falling repeatedly, and just tell expert ski-ers who can to tie their legs together or try skiing without skis/just one ski if they want a challenge. That's...I can't even begin to grasp this logic o_O2 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If the black slopes had noone using them but were costing the company to maintain wouldnt it be prudent to look at changing the difficulty of the run? So more people can enjoy it? Make more money.2 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »The Uninvited wrote: »The Uninvited wrote: »The Uninvited wrote: »Why is it easy and getting easier? Because it's an MMO, and this is how MMOs are now. They want the most amount of people to be able to play (and pay) their game. If content is too challenging (like most people thought of this game at launch) people will leave.
Why risk not having the highest number of players by having challenging content when they could (if they wanted and I wish they would) add in 'nightmare' versions of dungeons and raids. Level up via easy content, progress at max level with nightmare content. Let's just hope ZoS decides to go this route down the road. If everything is too easy, you get the same effect as things being too hard (but on a much smaller scale. the ratio of casuals : elites massively favours the casuals in every MMO)
Ya know,this is a very good idea.I have played games that have a slider for difficulty,or that even have buttons to hit for easy,normal,and hard. The Witcher has that,for an e xample.
Yes, but that is a SINGLE PLAYER game... name other major MMOs that have a difficulty slider? I would say it is impossible because you'd be adjusting content for every single player, ZOS has trouble in Cyrodiil because of the number of calculations that need to be made. Imagine going to a PvE dark anchor and now suddenly the game needs to adjust monsters difficulty for each and every player fighting at the anchor, same with group bosses, etc. It just wouldn't work. Battle-leveling is as close as we'll see to individual adjustments.
I just said that it was a good idea.I didnt say the Witcher was an MMO.
And no need to post in CAPS,..I CAN SEE.
I think it would be cool if the idea would work.I didnt even say it would.
Why shouldn't it be possible - it could be like in other TES games - "very easy" player does double damage, enemies half damage - "very hard" player does half damage, enemý double damage - and "extreme mode" comes with debuffs to speed and an insane decay of armor and weapons.
As I said, the amount of calculations it would have to make would probably be insane, and as we've seen in Cyrodiil, the game cannot handle the amount of calculations it already has to do and that area is battle-leveled. If it were so easy, other MMOs would be doing it, but none are... so clearly it isn't as easy as people like to make it sound.
Nah, that is not an effort at all - those are multipliers, which are anyway applied when scaling is happening. It is not a drain on performance at all. The reason why they don't do it, is as well pretty obvious - look how MMO players think - they want to be the best and have best gear - no one would willingly make himself up to 4 times weaker than the next guy in PvP. They could easily be weaker as well now already - just do not use VR gear, but normal stuff and not buff themselves with all kind of fancy food and champion points - then it would be challenging - but they do not want challeging - they just say they would - but in reality this is just their way to say "I am a 1337, whereas you suck at it" - that is what they mean, when they say "it is too easy".
That's simply not true. I'll just quote myself from another topic here:
I remember when 1.5 update came out and dungeons suddenly seemed harder and more difficult than before. Back than I was wearing dropped green/blue gear (not even complete set items) and playing in first person. AND we didn't have Champion Points! Not sure, but if I'm not mistaken soft caps were still in the game too.
It changed a lot for me. I had to rethink my skills, learn to play in third person, craft my own gear and have better situational awareness. It made me a better player and I liked that!
That's what gaming is about to me. You try, learn, try again and beat content that you considered too hard before simply because you didn't know everything yet.
And that's what we are asking for. Content that has a learning curve, to keep it interesting.
Try it without armor, then it will be challenging - or not?- What about without high level food, but just normal food?- What about with an average weapon instead of high level gear. There are so many ways to do it with more options than that all have pretty much the same endgame gear - if you want challenging, you can do that yourself - so I doubt, you seriously wánt that.
Edit: or apply just half of your skill points and half of your stats points and half of your champion points, and try it then - I really doubt those claiming to want it challenging would even dare to have a real challenge. If they would, they could already - just like I said it above.
That's a backwards perspective. Just saying you should gimp yourself to make it challenging is not the right way to go in my opinion. That's like saying to ZOS: Thanks for all the hard work you did with creating those end game gear sets, but we don't use them.
You did use them, but now you complain about difficulty - but did you try a hybrid build and apply less points than you have?- I guess, no, because all what you want is just be one of those with endgame gear - like anyone else - this is not heroic at all, a hero is a an average guy with courage, not the top player with the best gear and max amount of skill points. If you want a challenge and be a hero, be an average guy with courage instead of OP weaponry and armor.
You keep talking to me like you know me. What I'm talking about is this:
Start of the game as a noob
Practice and learn to overcome somewhat difficult content
Earn better gear to complete next harder content
Practice and learn to overcome harder content
Earn better gear to complete super hard content
Practice and learn to overcome super hard content
This is what I like and what gaming is for me. Right now, we're at a stand still because there's no new super hard content except for vMoL.
All of this wouldn't be a problem if they gave us two new dungeons like vWGT and vICP were in the beginning. But they didn't.
At some point you just have to get over the idea that the content isnt working for you.The top end will always be limited because ZOS wont just keep making things harder and harder to suit some people,while leaving out the majority of people who arent able to do it.
They want to keep their players from leaving because it is too hard for them.Most people arent into all that stuff about the best gear,best stats,and higher and higher challenges.Some are,but not the majority.
Which is why we don't even ask for the overall content to be made harder.
We'd just like to have at last ONE challenging small group instance in the game
Well, there are games, which found a solution for this urge for a real challenge - to opt into perma-death - if you ever get killed, that was it - you loose your character - really challenging. Is that what you want?- A real scary challenge?
Edit: could be as well a milder version of it - like not being able to play this character for a week. Then death would have consequences, and it would be a challenge and change the way in which you play. End of rinse and repeat combat with immediate respawn.
That doesn't make the content challenging. It makes the punishment for failure punitive. The difference is very real. If I could not play my character for a week because a poison plant burst under the shield bubble on the Argonian Boss fight in vet Maelstrom, I would uninstall the game and play something else.
If I am actually trying content that is challenging, then I need immediate respawn because the content is hard and thus requires that I practice it and become familiar with it. I don't know if you ever tried SO back when it first came out, when the best raid groups would wipe in under 60 seconds against the Mantikora. If SO was "scary" in that matter you suggest, we'd still probably be waiting for someone to beat it.
If you think that the content is challenging, this was not addressed to you. I addressed that suggestion to those, who think the content, which is meant to be challenging, is "too easy" for them. I bet they are not up for a challenge like this at all, simply because they cannot beat it reliably - and in this case they contradicted themselves - it is not "too easy" or at least not for them.
That's the problem, I don't think the content is challenging any more. Making it "scary" with punitive death penalty does not increase the difficulty or make it more of a challenge. It's still the same fight, except now if I get killed by RNG or because some PuG made a mistake, I am being penalized for it by not being able to log in for a week going by your suggestion. The first time we did WGT, yeah we kept wiping to the Planar boss. Eventually we figured it out (because we didn't have to wait 1 week to try again) and now the boss is not a problem. That's kind of how things should work. Content is challenging. Players die when first confronted with it. Content remains the same. Eventually players adapt with better tactics and builds to overcome said challenge. There's no contradiction here. Just because the content is hard at first to the uninitiated doesn't mean it remains hard as players get stronger and more experienced.
I don;t understand what the problem is with having dungeons with different levels of difficulty to match the diversity of player population in the ESO community.
I think it is because different phases for different difficulties would separate players from each other - and they attempt to do the exact opposite and scale all so, that it can be done by players of different abilities. ZOS goal is integration, not separation. The whole DLC concept is like that and maybe they will find this appropriate for the base game zones as well. I am not so sure, that it is a good idea for the first time experience of the game - but it would certainly allow friends of different levels to play together.
Edit: and to the term "challenging" - I think we both use it in quite different ways - you see challenging as in harder to beat and find out how to beat it - while I see a challenge in not dying at all - and so the content has to allow for that. Dying hundreds of times until I figure out how to do a hard boss, is not attractive to me, because it feels just wrong for a role player. I want bosses, where I have a good chance to get them down without to have to die at all. That is why I do not like first person shooters, for example, those are designed for your playstyle, but they are not made for mine. ESO is more made for role players and those hate to die at all.Edited by Lysette on May 2, 2016 3:10PM1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭x5ofspadez wrote: »I know alot of it is the power creep, however it feels like things are getting ever easier. The only "challenging" 4 player content in the game is getting nerfed, (as of PTS 2.4.0) and honestly it feels like if anything they should be getting buffed.
I cant be the only one who thinks this way.
You might not be the only one, but ZOS is not going that route. In an interview they stated, that they watch the data closely of how many people are doing the content, how many get through it and how many abandon it. And based on this data they decide about the difficulty of the content, because they want more people to be able to complete it and not just power players. So don't expect that there will be changes, which make it harder, it is most likely not happening.
Your correct, bith that Zos says they watch he data closely and that we shouldn't expect changes to keep challenge in the game.
Zos has had poor top management of this game from the start. Poorly designed systems and the obvious acknowledgement that the the vet ranks was a poor design.
With that, and much more, they faile miserably thinking through changes they make to the game hence the major changes to the CP system (mostly because Zos's vision was flawed again). I doubt Zos will begin to find a good direction as long as Firor is still at the helm.0
