Why is the content so easy?

Dubhliam

MuddledMuppet wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

MuddledMuppet wrote: »

I see the biggest problem is that bis gear is only achieved through the hardest content. I appreciate that people want rewards ( although a point could be made that completion of hard content could be reward enough of itself) but the rewards should be polymorphs, new armour styles, mounts, things that scream out 'Look at me I'm awesome!'

Too many good sets are only available from wgt/ICP etc, to say nothing of maelstrom weapons.

Right now, Mr average fights Mr awesome, not only will he get beat, he'll get utterly destroyed, does Mr awesomne really need the skill differential widened?

So Mr average asks for advice, gets told to join the biggest zerg he can, then gets vilified for being a zergling.

I'm all in favour of better players having content I'll never complete, and all in favour of them getting rewarded for it, having to choose between getting annihilated without a chance or running with a zerg is less appealing.

There is no room for PvP in this discussion about difficulty.
PvP "difficulty" is not something ZOS can affect. It is a sum of your skill and investment in the game compared to the same sum of other players.
Those players worked hard to learn and beat the hard content so that they can gain a slight advantage over other players.
Why would you want to belittle their efforts? Does their time have lower value than your own?

That being said, if we talk purely about PvE, what do you need BiS gear for if you can't/don't want to complete hard content?
You want to have a full set of Scathing Mage so you can have an easier time in Wayrest Sewers?

Logic.

I actually went out out of my way to say their efforts should be recognised and rewarded, I gave examples of how rewards don't have to be related to gaining an advantage. If you won an Olympic sport would you rather get a gold medal or a headstart the next race?

Logic? Logically correct arguments never require a condescending or aggressive tone.

I really don't understand your view.
You want to have BiS gear yet you don't want to complete hard content to get it?

What DO you want?

I'm sorry, I just can't help myself being condescending to instant gratification gamers.

I don't mind if people don't want to play hard content. It is your right to play how you want.
But the moment you start DEMANDING BEST IN SLOT GEAR is when my gears start grinding.

Rev Rielle

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Well, then it appears it's good that they'll be "battle leveling" all the areas once again, so people can stop complaining about how 'easy' content is... even though I still see new players dying even in the Wailing Prison and all questing zones. Not everyone is a good player and ZOS can easily check game data to see how often players are dying and in which content, so it seems to me THEY know more about how 'easy' content is for the majority of players versus players just speculating based upon their own personal skill level. It's like, "well this content is so easy for me, therefore it must be so easy for everyone else" mentality that really irks me... people love to think everyone is or should be exactly like them when the reality is people are all different with all different sets of skill levels, intellect, physical impairments, etc. A game has to be created with ALL people in mind, not just YOU and YOUR abilities.

games don't have to be created for all, or anyone. games are what they are. Not calling you out, as I don't know your intent, but the aspect of it MUST BE FOR EVERYONE is part of the entitlement people have been ragimg about. Eso shouldn't be for anyone except eso players. Half the troubles people have seem to be from a fixable lack of knowledge, not genuinely difficult content.

Apparently you forget that games are made to MAKE MONEY, and games make money by appealing to ALL PEOPLE... to encourage the most population. Not appealing to all people means the game has limited appeal which means limited income which equates to limited shelf life.

They can also make the game more appealing to everyone by teaching them how to play the game instead of them just nerfing everything because people can't play the game..... There's tons of things they can do to help teach them to block, roll dodge etc, but they chose the easy way out.

I have to agree with this.

I think perceived 'difficultly' and 'too difficult' content comes from players not willing to learn those most basic of skills: Block, interrupt, dodge, roll, etc. Most of the time it seems to me players at too busy firing away their skill rotations to actually interact and react to the enemy they're fighting, and as a result a battle can sometimes become infinitely more difficult and leads them down a road that ends with them complaining here on the forums with a chorus of others that content is too hard, which results in others thinking content is too hard before even trying it, and eventually development listening and reducing the difficulty.

It really is a shame.

MuddledMuppet

Dubhliam wrote: »

MuddledMuppet wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

MuddledMuppet wrote: »

I see the biggest problem is that bis gear is only achieved through the hardest content. I appreciate that people want rewards ( although a point could be made that completion of hard content could be reward enough of itself) but the rewards should be polymorphs, new armour styles, mounts, things that scream out 'Look at me I'm awesome!'

Too many good sets are only available from wgt/ICP etc, to say nothing of maelstrom weapons.

Right now, Mr average fights Mr awesome, not only will he get beat, he'll get utterly destroyed, does Mr awesomne really need the skill differential widened?

So Mr average asks for advice, gets told to join the biggest zerg he can, then gets vilified for being a zergling.

I'm all in favour of better players having content I'll never complete, and all in favour of them getting rewarded for it, having to choose between getting annihilated without a chance or running with a zerg is less appealing.

There is no room for PvP in this discussion about difficulty.
PvP "difficulty" is not something ZOS can affect. It is a sum of your skill and investment in the game compared to the same sum of other players.
Those players worked hard to learn and beat the hard content so that they can gain a slight advantage over other players.
Why would you want to belittle their efforts? Does their time have lower value than your own?

That being said, if we talk purely about PvE, what do you need BiS gear for if you can't/don't want to complete hard content?
You want to have a full set of Scathing Mage so you can have an easier time in Wayrest Sewers?

Logic.

I actually went out out of my way to say their efforts should be recognised and rewarded, I gave examples of how rewards don't have to be related to gaining an advantage. If you won an Olympic sport would you rather get a gold medal or a headstart the next race?

Logic? Logically correct arguments never require a condescending or aggressive tone.

I really don't understand your view.
You want to have BiS gear yet you don't want to complete hard content to get it?

What DO you want?

I'm sorry, I just can't help myself being condescending to instant gratification gamers.

I don't mind if people don't want to play hard content. It is your right to play how you want.
But the moment you start DEMANDING BEST IN SLOT GEAR is when my gears start grinding.

It is a waste of time discussing anything when facing such childish statements. I have demanded nothing, care to quote where I have? I have given my reasoning which anyone is free to disagree with, if they wish to have a civil debate and express an opposite opinion I'm fine with that.

Discussing anything with people who use hyperbole, gross exaggerations and outright putting words in my mouth is an exercise in futility, condesend all you want but I'm done with you.

Good day.

Dubhliam

@MuddledMuppet

MuddledMuppet wrote: »

I see the biggest problem is that bis gear is only achieved through the hardest content. ...
... Mr average fights Mr awesome, ...

You may have not demanded anything directly, but have stated that best in slot gear is not available to average players.

I easily interpret this into instant gratification request.
Also, I understand that you want best gear to be available to an average player that cannot beat vICP or vWGT, and that the only incentive for people that run hard content are vanity items.

If you would like to clarify what else you meant with that sentence, go right ahead.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

kylewwefan wrote: »

There is no need to become so toxic after you have mastered one bit of content many struggle with. Try helping the community rather than belittling them.

Me and my friends have taught people before, but these days it seems many new people are either too dumb or just refuse to learn how to play the game, and it's just not worth our time to try to teach people that just don't get it or don't want to learn. I could do it these days if I got paid in real money to do it, but otherwise no.

visionality

Having maxed out my CPs gives me the feeling that @x5ofspadez is right. PVE content in general is too easy for advanced players, especially if you also have highly leveled gear. BUT ---

--- leveling a new char atm makes me go into normal dungeons with randoms rather often, and som eof them are REALLY REALLY bad. They don't know how to block, how to dodge, what the red circle below their feet means, and if I add 0 CP on top of such low skill, their frustration level must be terrible. So they need content they can manage and Zenimax is well advised to provide it. And ofc it's exactly those players who want to go where the good gear drops because they hear that the Kena set will give them all the damage they lack or Malubeth will heal them through any damage (not true, but still ...).

I would propose 3 things to make everybody happy:

1) Make the superior stuff earnable instead of linked to an achievement that many can't achieve until they HAVE the superior stuff. Why not make all the masks, shoulders and special armors with all the traits buyable at the undaunted with some sort of currency that you earn by doing the dailies? Whether you go finish vWGT five times to earn your divine Kena or you make the normal Wayrest sewers 100 times is your decision, but in the end you can get what you're longing for even if you'll never be an expert player.

You can still have the scores for vMA, the weekly trials and you might even add a daily vet dungeon which motivates the hard-core gamers, combined with high-end rewards, but normal players wouldn't feel frustrated by realizing that they have no chance on a Maelstrom weapon or a cp160 armor set.

2) Make clear indications of the necessary skills for the content. Why not tagging the dungeons with a difficulty from 1-10, additionally tagged with the number of CPs recommended for the veteran dungeons? It would save ppl from frustration, but also giving them goals to aim at.

3) Give ppl a "skill-o-meter". If you're listing yourself as DD in the group finder, why not adding a little number for your eyes only? Like a scale from 1-10 which corresponds with the listings for dungeon difficulty? If I saw vCOA was listed as difficulty 9 and my dd-skills were evaluated as 6, I might just wait till I improve instead of frustrating me and my group with a permanent failure at Valkyn Skoria.

Sorry for babbling! Just my opinion because I never feel good when I have to tell a group of newbies that they will NOT finish the dungeon with their current amount of damage and skill.

Eugenstash

x5ofspadez wrote: »

I know alot of it is the power creep, however it feels like things are getting ever easier. The only "challenging" 4 player content in the game is getting nerfed, (as of PTS 2.4.0) and honestly it feels like if anything they should be getting buffed.

I cant be the only one who thinks this way.

One word I just made up: Carebearitization

Ep1kMalware

ADarklore wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Well, then it appears it's good that they'll be "battle leveling" all the areas once again, so people can stop complaining about how 'easy' content is... even though I still see new players dying even in the Wailing Prison and all questing zones. Not everyone is a good player and ZOS can easily check game data to see how often players are dying and in which content, so it seems to me THEY know more about how 'easy' content is for the majority of players versus players just speculating based upon their own personal skill level. It's like, "well this content is so easy for me, therefore it must be so easy for everyone else" mentality that really irks me... people love to think everyone is or should be exactly like them when the reality is people are all different with all different sets of skill levels, intellect, physical impairments, etc. A game has to be created with ALL people in mind, not just YOU and YOUR abilities.

games don't have to be created for all, or anyone. games are what they are. Not calling you out, as I don't know your intent, but the aspect of it MUST BE FOR EVERYONE is part of the entitlement people have been ragimg about. Eso shouldn't be for anyone except eso players. Half the troubles people have seem to be from a fixable lack of knowledge, not genuinely difficult content.

Apparently you forget that games are made to MAKE MONEY, and games make money by appealing to ALL PEOPLE... to encourage the most population. Not appealing to all people means the game has limited appeal which means limited income which equates to limited shelf life.

really? I think mmos have been the only genre recently that has tried to appeal tl anybody. Most game titles try to stick to their genre. Sure they love new customers. But dark souls 3 didn't try to branch out to legend of zelda and mario fans, now did they?

No, they know who plays their game, and that's what who they designe the bulk of their content for.

Ep1kMalware

MuddledMuppet wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

MuddledMuppet wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

MuddledMuppet wrote: »

I see the biggest problem is that bis gear is only achieved through the hardest content. I appreciate that people want rewards ( although a point could be made that completion of hard content could be reward enough of itself) but the rewards should be polymorphs, new armour styles, mounts, things that scream out 'Look at me I'm awesome!'

Too many good sets are only available from wgt/ICP etc, to say nothing of maelstrom weapons.

Right now, Mr average fights Mr awesome, not only will he get beat, he'll get utterly destroyed, does Mr awesomne really need the skill differential widened?

So Mr average asks for advice, gets told to join the biggest zerg he can, then gets vilified for being a zergling.

I'm all in favour of better players having content I'll never complete, and all in favour of them getting rewarded for it, having to choose between getting annihilated without a chance or running with a zerg is less appealing.

You can get all those vWGT/ICP-sets in normal mode or by downscaling the dungeons to CP10 and farming the trophys. The only thing which is really hard to get are maelstrome weapons. All other gear is extremely easy (there is RNG, but content is easy) to get.

Well... ish. Dropped sets will be cp150

Not sure what you mean by downscaling to cp10 and farming trophies, mind explaining?

The difference between CP150 and CP160 gear is really small, it only matters for min/maxing. If you don't care about it, CP150 is more than fine.

Get someone with 10CP and give him lead, then port into vWGT/vICP and all the mobs will be CP10. You can now farm the trophys from bosses easily and will get CP160 equip from trophy-vaults.

Ah, thought that's what you meant. I don't know anyone of cp10, or under 160, and obviously once one character is 160 they all are. Do-able under vet system, less so now I think.

As to the smaller difference, it's the less skilled players who NEED to main/Max, not the ones whose skills alloiw them to cut a few corners.

uhmmmm so you're saying ..

actually I see what you're saying. you want to min/max without min/maxing. While min-,axers should stop min-maxing. average plers dont want ro put in the very little effor required to do so or they'd have the gear you're talking about.

why do we have pve/pvp then? what's the point in all those gear rewards if you want it for free to min/max against mobs with a 10k health bar.

Kalifas

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Well, then it appears it's good that they'll be "battle leveling" all the areas once again, so people can stop complaining about how 'easy' content is... even though I still see new players dying even in the Wailing Prison and all questing zones. Not everyone is a good player and ZOS can easily check game data to see how often players are dying and in which content, so it seems to me THEY know more about how 'easy' content is for the majority of players versus players just speculating based upon their own personal skill level. It's like, "well this content is so easy for me, therefore it must be so easy for everyone else" mentality that really irks me... people love to think everyone is or should be exactly like them when the reality is people are all different with all different sets of skill levels, intellect, physical impairments, etc. A game has to be created with ALL people in mind, not just YOU and YOUR abilities.

games don't have to be created for all, or anyone. games are what they are. Not calling you out, as I don't know your intent, but the aspect of it MUST BE FOR EVERYONE is part of the entitlement people have been ragimg about. Eso shouldn't be for anyone except eso players. Half the troubles people have seem to be from a fixable lack of knowledge, not genuinely difficult content.

Apparently you forget that games are made to MAKE MONEY, and games make money by appealing to ALL PEOPLE... to encourage the most population. Not appealing to all people means the game has limited appeal which means limited income which equates to limited shelf life.

They can also make the game more appealing to everyone by teaching them how to play the game instead of them just nerfing everything because people can't play the game..... There's tons of things they can do to help teach them to block, roll dodge etc, but they chose the easy way out.

Games don't have to be created for all, a truth that many people don't acknowledge. If you takeaway wow, that approach hasn't worked for one company since then. If anything ESO is where it is now because it isn't like most other mmos out there. The Souls series went from being a unheard of IP to one of the premiere IPS in the rpg space regardless of it's ridiculous hard difficulty they said casuals wouldn't like. ESO should be about Elder Scrolls and not a different skin on a game millions from outside the franchise have played before. That is the whole point of brand new IP.

Some of the longest running american and japanese mmos are EQ and Final Fantasy XI. They are not as hardcore as in vanilla through halfway through their lifespan but they have stood the test of time. While the homogenized or dumbed down games may bring in bigger numbers in the outset. The staying power falters because when you try to accommodate all you neglect your fan faithful. If someone wanted to play WoW, it's still there. If someone wants to play ESO here it is. Do you play mmos and want an experience just like some other game?

Dubhliam

visionality wrote: »

Having maxed out my CPs gives me the feeling that @x5ofspadez is right. PVE content in general is too easy for advanced players, especially if you also have highly leveled gear. BUT ---

--- leveling a new char atm makes me go into normal dungeons with randoms rather often, and som eof them are REALLY REALLY bad. They don't know how to block, how to dodge, what the red circle below their feet means, and if I add 0 CP on top of such low skill, their frustration level must be terrible. So they need content they can manage and Zenimax is well advised to provide it. And ofc it's exactly those players who want to go where the good gear drops because they hear that the Kena set will give them all the damage they lack or Malubeth will heal them through any damage (not true, but still ...).

I would propose 3 things to make everybody happy:

1) Make the superior stuff earnable instead of linked to an achievement that many can't achieve until they HAVE the superior stuff. Why not make all the masks, shoulders and special armors with all the traits buyable at the undaunted with some sort of currency that you earn by doing the dailies? Whether you go finish vWGT five times to earn your divine Kena or you make the normal Wayrest sewers 100 times is your decision, but in the end you can get what you're longing for even if you'll never be an expert player.

You can still have the scores for vMA, the weekly trials and you might even add a daily vet dungeon which motivates the hard-core gamers, combined with high-end rewards, but normal players wouldn't feel frustrated by realizing that they have no chance on a Maelstrom weapon or a cp160 armor set.

2) Make clear indications of the necessary skills for the content. Why not tagging the dungeons with a difficulty from 1-10, additionally tagged with the number of CPs recommended for the veteran dungeons? It would save ppl from frustration, but also giving them goals to aim at.

3) Give ppl a "skill-o-meter". If you're listing yourself as DD in the group finder, why not adding a little number for your eyes only? Like a scale from 1-10 which corresponds with the listings for dungeon difficulty? If I saw vCOA was listed as difficulty 9 and my dd-skills were evaluated as 6, I might just wait till I improve instead of frustrating me and my group with a permanent failure at Valkyn Skoria.

Sorry for babbling! Just my opinion because I never feel good when I have to tell a group of newbies that they will NOT finish the dungeon with their current amount of damage and skill.

Earnable how?
Do you want normal IC dungeons to drop cp160 gear?
What would be the incentive to run veteran versions then?
@MuddledMuppet suggested vanity items, but here's my problem with that:
- ZOS would give away the vanity items for free instead of selling items they spent resources on making. I am very happy with the way ZOS manages Crown store items, and would like to keep it that way - vanity and convenience items.
- Vanity rewards would kill the longevity of veteran dungeons. You need RNG to prolong content they spent a lot of time and effort on making. Vanity rewards can't have any RNG implemented to them - they are once-and-done; you go get them, get out and don't come back.

Now let's get back to reality.
These are some of the sets that are labeled as "Best in slot":
- Scathing Mage - Damage set gained from vICP
- Spell Power Cure - Healer set gained from vWGT
- certain Undaunted Monster Sets
- Maelstrom weapons

Apart from Maelstrom weapons, any of those sets can be obtained without having to do hard content. There's the Cyrodill golden vendor for Monster sets, and normal IC dungeons drop cp150 versions of gear.
Let's not forget: these BiS IC sets are only best for PvE content, I have yet to see a streamer post a PvP build including either Spell Power Cure or Scathing Mage. So no, they won't help you beat Mr. Awesome in Cyrodill.
Yet for PvE content there are a TON of vMA builds posted by @Deltia , @Alcast , @FENGRUSH , @Nifty2g , and many others that all include craftable sets.
Those include Julianos, Twice Born Star, Hunding's Rage and Night Mother.

Meaning if someone cannot complete hard content in craftable gear, then there is no "BiS" gear that will help him.

You noticed a very important problem in ESO, and that is the lack of knowledge new players have. They do not understand how the basic mechanics of the game work and how important they are in group content.
And I don't blame the players - I blame ZOS for enabling them.
After all, we as humans are lazy creatures - we will only try as much as we need, and if ZOS says we don't have to try hard - we won't.

The game difficulty is not a problem per se - the lack of player progression is. Players are supposed to grow and learn during the lifetime of their characters, and the game should prepare them for the endgame content.

Progressively harder open world monsters (from really easy to hard) are just one of the things ZOS should change to prepare their players for the veteran content.
It should also be accompanied by tutorials that cannot be turned off in game settings. Seriously, if somebody constantly dies in red, the game should pop up a tutorial to teach him fire = bad.
Also, some kind of a Mentor System where veteran players help out newer players should be implemented. Aion had something similar.

ZOS, please start doing things to lessen the gap between new players and veteran players. You have great basic game mechanics - make people learn and use them.

Garldeen

I'm not a good player at all, and this isn't a 'look at me, i'm great argument (people who group with me will back up my inability to press the right button or walk in the right direction) but even I'm finding the game so easy as to be boring (outside of the GF dungeons which are beating me each time - that is fine, I want to learn them and get better). I got a character up to v3 and then deleted to start again. The new character is L30 and there is no challenge in any of the zones other than the '4th' starting zone which is l40. The DLC battle levelling means there is no challenge there either.

I'm not using any of the CP I collected from my V character, I have standard L20ish armour and L25 bow and, unless I make a mistake, it is nigh on impossible to die in fights. I completed a HB delve yesterday just pressing one button. The boredom due to lack of challenge is the thing which is driving me away from the game faster than the bugs or the increasing role the crown store is starting to play. I want areas in which I will die several times until I learn how to do it properly, baddies which will give me a beating.

World bosses is a major issue for me, also. I want these to be super hard, and most can be difficult when solo, especially the DLC ones. However, by the time the boss spawns, there are so many people waiting to kill them that there is no challenge to be had. The world bosses, in my opinion, should be group instances for 4 - queue in the group finder. This would add new group content, ok but short, and make them a real challenge.

Playing ESO gives me a bit of a shock when I try and take on higher level monsters in the Witcher

Edit: Still cannot spell

Tib

kylewwefan wrote: »

If you need a challenge that bad, go run around open world naked. Normal dungeons should be FUN for everyone.

Proposals like this are straight out hilarious You're basically saying I should create my own difficult content, because the ones who get paid for it couldn't handle it.

For me the challenge is not dropping all the gear and fighting, it's being armored to the teeth and still barely making it.