Why is the content so easy?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Remember too challenge is subjective. What is challenging for you might not be for other people and vice versa. I think if you are looking for a hardcore raiding/PVE game with stuff only a very small percentage even bother trying much less completing this isnt your game.

I like how everyone says things are so easy now but not for me apparently. I go try my first trial and died so much all my gear broke lol. So ya its challenging to me heh.

Lysette

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

x5ofspadez wrote: »

I know alot of it is the power creep, however it feels like things are getting ever easier. The only "challenging" 4 player content in the game is getting nerfed, (as of PTS 2.4.0) and honestly it feels like if anything they should be getting buffed.

I cant be the only one who thinks this way.

You might not be the only one, but ZOS is not going that route. In an interview they stated, that they watch the data closely of how many people are doing the content, how many get through it and how many abandon it. And based on this data they decide about the difficulty of the content, because they want more people to be able to complete it and not just power players. So don't expect that there will be changes, which make it harder, it is most likely not happening.

Your correct, bith that Zos says they watch he data closely and that we shouldn't expect changes to keep challenge in the game.

Zos has had poor top management of this game from the start. Poorly designed systems and the obvious acknowledgement that the the vet ranks was a poor design.

With that, and much more, they faile miserably thinking through changes they make to the game hence the major changes to the CP system (mostly because Zos's vision was flawed again). I doubt Zos will begin to find a good direction as long as Firor is still at the helm.

Actually I think that Mr. Firor is the first in the lead, who really got what ESO should have been in the first place. And the success of it proves him right. IMO the game is extremely healthy currently population-wise and the general direction of the DLC is about real TES content, thief guild, dark brotherhood, more regions of Tamriel - this is what ESO is about, TES content, that traditional MMO stuff is not what this game is about - and Mr. Firor said this clearly, but obviously not clear enough for those, who do not want to believe it. His oppinon about traditional MMOs is, that most of it is outdated and obsolete - and I think he nailed this as well, the traditional way to play MMOs is in decline - and MMO refers now to the technology and not a genre - he is right with this as well IMO. And I think as well, that the investors are quite happy with him in the lead.

Joy_Division

Lysette wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

kampori wrote: »

Why is it easy and getting easier? Because it's an MMO, and this is how MMOs are now. They want the most amount of people to be able to play (and pay) their game. If content is too challenging (like most people thought of this game at launch) people will leave.
Why risk not having the highest number of players by having challenging content when they could (if they wanted and I wish they would) add in 'nightmare' versions of dungeons and raids. Level up via easy content, progress at max level with nightmare content. Let's just hope ZoS decides to go this route down the road. If everything is too easy, you get the same effect as things being too hard (but on a much smaller scale. the ratio of casuals : elites massively favours the casuals in every MMO)

Ya know,this is a very good idea.I have played games that have a slider for difficulty,or that even have buttons to hit for easy,normal,and hard. The Witcher has that,for an e xample.

Yes, but that is a SINGLE PLAYER game... name other major MMOs that have a difficulty slider? I would say it is impossible because you'd be adjusting content for every single player, ZOS has trouble in Cyrodiil because of the number of calculations that need to be made. Imagine going to a PvE dark anchor and now suddenly the game needs to adjust monsters difficulty for each and every player fighting at the anchor, same with group bosses, etc. It just wouldn't work. Battle-leveling is as close as we'll see to individual adjustments.

I just said that it was a good idea.I didnt say the Witcher was an MMO.
And no need to post in CAPS,..I CAN SEE.
I think it would be cool if the idea would work.I didnt even say it would.

Why shouldn't it be possible - it could be like in other TES games - "very easy" player does double damage, enemies half damage - "very hard" player does half damage, enemý double damage - and "extreme mode" comes with debuffs to speed and an insane decay of armor and weapons.

As I said, the amount of calculations it would have to make would probably be insane, and as we've seen in Cyrodiil, the game cannot handle the amount of calculations it already has to do and that area is battle-leveled. If it were so easy, other MMOs would be doing it, but none are... so clearly it isn't as easy as people like to make it sound.

Nah, that is not an effort at all - those are multipliers, which are anyway applied when scaling is happening. It is not a drain on performance at all. The reason why they don't do it, is as well pretty obvious - look how MMO players think - they want to be the best and have best gear - no one would willingly make himself up to 4 times weaker than the next guy in PvP. They could easily be weaker as well now already - just do not use VR gear, but normal stuff and not buff themselves with all kind of fancy food and champion points - then it would be challenging - but they do not want challeging - they just say they would - but in reality this is just their way to say "I am a 1337, whereas you suck at it" - that is what they mean, when they say "it is too easy".

That's simply not true. I'll just quote myself from another topic here:

I remember when 1.5 update came out and dungeons suddenly seemed harder and more difficult than before. Back than I was wearing dropped green/blue gear (not even complete set items) and playing in first person. AND we didn't have Champion Points! Not sure, but if I'm not mistaken soft caps were still in the game too.

It changed a lot for me. I had to rethink my skills, learn to play in third person, craft my own gear and have better situational awareness. It made me a better player and I liked that!

That's what gaming is about to me. You try, learn, try again and beat content that you considered too hard before simply because you didn't know everything yet.

And that's what we are asking for. Content that has a learning curve, to keep it interesting.

Try it without armor, then it will be challenging - or not?- What about without high level food, but just normal food?- What about with an average weapon instead of high level gear. There are so many ways to do it with more options than that all have pretty much the same endgame gear - if you want challenging, you can do that yourself - so I doubt, you seriously wánt that.

Edit: or apply just half of your skill points and half of your stats points and half of your champion points, and try it then - I really doubt those claiming to want it challenging would even dare to have a real challenge. If they would, they could already - just like I said it above.

That's a backwards perspective. Just saying you should gimp yourself to make it challenging is not the right way to go in my opinion. That's like saying to ZOS: Thanks for all the hard work you did with creating those end game gear sets, but we don't use them.

You did use them, but now you complain about difficulty - but did you try a hybrid build and apply less points than you have?- I guess, no, because all what you want is just be one of those with endgame gear - like anyone else - this is not heroic at all, a hero is a an average guy with courage, not the top player with the best gear and max amount of skill points. If you want a challenge and be a hero, be an average guy with courage instead of OP weaponry and armor.

You keep talking to me like you know me. What I'm talking about is this:

Start of the game as a noob
Practice and learn to overcome somewhat difficult content
Earn better gear to complete next harder content
Practice and learn to overcome harder content
Earn better gear to complete super hard content
Practice and learn to overcome super hard content

This is what I like and what gaming is for me. Right now, we're at a stand still because there's no new super hard content except for vMoL.

All of this wouldn't be a problem if they gave us two new dungeons like vWGT and vICP were in the beginning. But they didn't.

At some point you just have to get over the idea that the content isnt working for you.The top end will always be limited because ZOS wont just keep making things harder and harder to suit some people,while leaving out the majority of people who arent able to do it.
They want to keep their players from leaving because it is too hard for them.Most people arent into all that stuff about the best gear,best stats,and higher and higher challenges.Some are,but not the majority.

Which is why we don't even ask for the overall content to be made harder.
We'd just like to have at last ONE challenging small group instance in the game

Well, there are games, which found a solution for this urge for a real challenge - to opt into perma-death - if you ever get killed, that was it - you loose your character - really challenging. Is that what you want?- A real scary challenge?

Edit: could be as well a milder version of it - like not being able to play this character for a week. Then death would have consequences, and it would be a challenge and change the way in which you play. End of rinse and repeat combat with immediate respawn.

That doesn't make the content challenging. It makes the punishment for failure punitive. The difference is very real. If I could not play my character for a week because a poison plant burst under the shield bubble on the Argonian Boss fight in vet Maelstrom, I would uninstall the game and play something else.

If I am actually trying content that is challenging, then I need immediate respawn because the content is hard and thus requires that I practice it and become familiar with it. I don't know if you ever tried SO back when it first came out, when the best raid groups would wipe in under 60 seconds against the Mantikora. If SO was "scary" in that matter you suggest, we'd still probably be waiting for someone to beat it.

If you think that the content is challenging, this was not addressed to you. I addressed that suggestion to those, who think the content, which is meant to be challenging, is "too easy" for them. I bet they are not up for a challenge like this at all, simply because they cannot beat it reliably - and in this case they contradicted themselves - it is not "too easy" or at least not for them.

That's the problem, I don't think the content is challenging any more. Making it "scary" with punitive death penalty does not increase the difficulty or make it more of a challenge. It's still the same fight, except now if I get killed by RNG or because some PuG made a mistake, I am being penalized for it by not being able to log in for a week going by your suggestion. The first time we did WGT, yeah we kept wiping to the Planar boss. Eventually we figured it out (because we didn't have to wait 1 week to try again) and now the boss is not a problem. That's kind of how things should work. Content is challenging. Players die when first confronted with it. Content remains the same. Eventually players adapt with better tactics and builds to overcome said challenge. There's no contradiction here. Just because the content is hard at first to the uninitiated doesn't mean it remains hard as players get stronger and more experienced.

I don;t understand what the problem is with having dungeons with different levels of difficulty to match the diversity of player population in the ESO community.

I think it is because different phases for different difficulties would separate players from each other - and they attempt to do the exact opposite and scale all so, that it can be done by players of different abilities. ZOS goal is integration, not separation. The whole DLC concept is like that and maybe they will find this appropriate for the base game zones as well. I am not so sure, that it is a good idea for the first time experience of the game - but it would certainly allow friends of different levels to play together.

Edit: and to the term "challenging" - I think we both use it in quite different ways - you see challenging as in harder to beat and find out how to beat it - while I see a challenge in not dying at all - and so the content has to allow for that. Dying hundreds of times until I figure out how to do a hard boss, is not attractive to me, because it feels just wrong for a role player. I want bosses, where I have a good chance to get them down without to have to die at all. That is why I do not like first person shooters, for example, those are designed for your playstyle, but they are not made for mine. ESO is more made for role players and those hate to die at all.

K, not sure how productive further conversation is going to be here. The content "has to allow" for what you find attractive but not me since ESO wasn't made for my play-style. Apparently integration means tailoring the game experiences to your personal preferences because ESO was more made for you rather than me. Every dungeon has to conform to your idea of challenge and none for mine.

Edit: and ... ehem ... I do enjoy to play "in character", or role-play. Please don;t speak for me.

khele23eb17_ESO

Its much harder to make challenging content that is balanced for all classes and playstyles and difficult enough to require a lot of effort to master and get rewards from than to make faceroll content which only requires mindlessly repeating it hundreds of times to win the RNG lottery .

Lysette

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

kampori wrote: »

Why is it easy and getting easier? Because it's an MMO, and this is how MMOs are now. They want the most amount of people to be able to play (and pay) their game. If content is too challenging (like most people thought of this game at launch) people will leave.
Why risk not having the highest number of players by having challenging content when they could (if they wanted and I wish they would) add in 'nightmare' versions of dungeons and raids. Level up via easy content, progress at max level with nightmare content. Let's just hope ZoS decides to go this route down the road. If everything is too easy, you get the same effect as things being too hard (but on a much smaller scale. the ratio of casuals : elites massively favours the casuals in every MMO)

Ya know,this is a very good idea.I have played games that have a slider for difficulty,or that even have buttons to hit for easy,normal,and hard. The Witcher has that,for an e xample.

Yes, but that is a SINGLE PLAYER game... name other major MMOs that have a difficulty slider? I would say it is impossible because you'd be adjusting content for every single player, ZOS has trouble in Cyrodiil because of the number of calculations that need to be made. Imagine going to a PvE dark anchor and now suddenly the game needs to adjust monsters difficulty for each and every player fighting at the anchor, same with group bosses, etc. It just wouldn't work. Battle-leveling is as close as we'll see to individual adjustments.

I just said that it was a good idea.I didnt say the Witcher was an MMO.
And no need to post in CAPS,..I CAN SEE.
I think it would be cool if the idea would work.I didnt even say it would.

Why shouldn't it be possible - it could be like in other TES games - "very easy" player does double damage, enemies half damage - "very hard" player does half damage, enemý double damage - and "extreme mode" comes with debuffs to speed and an insane decay of armor and weapons.

As I said, the amount of calculations it would have to make would probably be insane, and as we've seen in Cyrodiil, the game cannot handle the amount of calculations it already has to do and that area is battle-leveled. If it were so easy, other MMOs would be doing it, but none are... so clearly it isn't as easy as people like to make it sound.

Nah, that is not an effort at all - those are multipliers, which are anyway applied when scaling is happening. It is not a drain on performance at all. The reason why they don't do it, is as well pretty obvious - look how MMO players think - they want to be the best and have best gear - no one would willingly make himself up to 4 times weaker than the next guy in PvP. They could easily be weaker as well now already - just do not use VR gear, but normal stuff and not buff themselves with all kind of fancy food and champion points - then it would be challenging - but they do not want challeging - they just say they would - but in reality this is just their way to say "I am a 1337, whereas you suck at it" - that is what they mean, when they say "it is too easy".

That's simply not true. I'll just quote myself from another topic here:

I remember when 1.5 update came out and dungeons suddenly seemed harder and more difficult than before. Back than I was wearing dropped green/blue gear (not even complete set items) and playing in first person. AND we didn't have Champion Points! Not sure, but if I'm not mistaken soft caps were still in the game too.

It changed a lot for me. I had to rethink my skills, learn to play in third person, craft my own gear and have better situational awareness. It made me a better player and I liked that!

That's what gaming is about to me. You try, learn, try again and beat content that you considered too hard before simply because you didn't know everything yet.

And that's what we are asking for. Content that has a learning curve, to keep it interesting.

Try it without armor, then it will be challenging - or not?- What about without high level food, but just normal food?- What about with an average weapon instead of high level gear. There are so many ways to do it with more options than that all have pretty much the same endgame gear - if you want challenging, you can do that yourself - so I doubt, you seriously wánt that.

Edit: or apply just half of your skill points and half of your stats points and half of your champion points, and try it then - I really doubt those claiming to want it challenging would even dare to have a real challenge. If they would, they could already - just like I said it above.

That's a backwards perspective. Just saying you should gimp yourself to make it challenging is not the right way to go in my opinion. That's like saying to ZOS: Thanks for all the hard work you did with creating those end game gear sets, but we don't use them.

You did use them, but now you complain about difficulty - but did you try a hybrid build and apply less points than you have?- I guess, no, because all what you want is just be one of those with endgame gear - like anyone else - this is not heroic at all, a hero is a an average guy with courage, not the top player with the best gear and max amount of skill points. If you want a challenge and be a hero, be an average guy with courage instead of OP weaponry and armor.

You keep talking to me like you know me. What I'm talking about is this:

Start of the game as a noob
Practice and learn to overcome somewhat difficult content
Earn better gear to complete next harder content
Practice and learn to overcome harder content
Earn better gear to complete super hard content
Practice and learn to overcome super hard content

This is what I like and what gaming is for me. Right now, we're at a stand still because there's no new super hard content except for vMoL.

All of this wouldn't be a problem if they gave us two new dungeons like vWGT and vICP were in the beginning. But they didn't.

At some point you just have to get over the idea that the content isnt working for you.The top end will always be limited because ZOS wont just keep making things harder and harder to suit some people,while leaving out the majority of people who arent able to do it.
They want to keep their players from leaving because it is too hard for them.Most people arent into all that stuff about the best gear,best stats,and higher and higher challenges.Some are,but not the majority.

Which is why we don't even ask for the overall content to be made harder.
We'd just like to have at last ONE challenging small group instance in the game

Well, there are games, which found a solution for this urge for a real challenge - to opt into perma-death - if you ever get killed, that was it - you loose your character - really challenging. Is that what you want?- A real scary challenge?

Edit: could be as well a milder version of it - like not being able to play this character for a week. Then death would have consequences, and it would be a challenge and change the way in which you play. End of rinse and repeat combat with immediate respawn.

That doesn't make the content challenging. It makes the punishment for failure punitive. The difference is very real. If I could not play my character for a week because a poison plant burst under the shield bubble on the Argonian Boss fight in vet Maelstrom, I would uninstall the game and play something else.

If I am actually trying content that is challenging, then I need immediate respawn because the content is hard and thus requires that I practice it and become familiar with it. I don't know if you ever tried SO back when it first came out, when the best raid groups would wipe in under 60 seconds against the Mantikora. If SO was "scary" in that matter you suggest, we'd still probably be waiting for someone to beat it.

If you think that the content is challenging, this was not addressed to you. I addressed that suggestion to those, who think the content, which is meant to be challenging, is "too easy" for them. I bet they are not up for a challenge like this at all, simply because they cannot beat it reliably - and in this case they contradicted themselves - it is not "too easy" or at least not for them.

That's the problem, I don't think the content is challenging any more. Making it "scary" with punitive death penalty does not increase the difficulty or make it more of a challenge. It's still the same fight, except now if I get killed by RNG or because some PuG made a mistake, I am being penalized for it by not being able to log in for a week going by your suggestion. The first time we did WGT, yeah we kept wiping to the Planar boss. Eventually we figured it out (because we didn't have to wait 1 week to try again) and now the boss is not a problem. That's kind of how things should work. Content is challenging. Players die when first confronted with it. Content remains the same. Eventually players adapt with better tactics and builds to overcome said challenge. There's no contradiction here. Just because the content is hard at first to the uninitiated doesn't mean it remains hard as players get stronger and more experienced.

I don;t understand what the problem is with having dungeons with different levels of difficulty to match the diversity of player population in the ESO community.

I think it is because different phases for different difficulties would separate players from each other - and they attempt to do the exact opposite and scale all so, that it can be done by players of different abilities. ZOS goal is integration, not separation. The whole DLC concept is like that and maybe they will find this appropriate for the base game zones as well. I am not so sure, that it is a good idea for the first time experience of the game - but it would certainly allow friends of different levels to play together.

Edit: and to the term "challenging" - I think we both use it in quite different ways - you see challenging as in harder to beat and find out how to beat it - while I see a challenge in not dying at all - and so the content has to allow for that. Dying hundreds of times until I figure out how to do a hard boss, is not attractive to me, because it feels just wrong for a role player. I want bosses, where I have a good chance to get them down without to have to die at all. That is why I do not like first person shooters, for example, those are designed for your playstyle, but they are not made for mine. ESO is more made for role players and those hate to die at all.

K, not sure how productive further conversation is going to be here. The content "has to allow" for what you find attractive but not me since ESO wasn't made for my play-style. Apparently integration means tailoring the game experiences to your personal preferences because ESO was more made for you rather than me. Every dungeon has to conform to your idea of challenge and none for mine.

Edit: and ... ehem ... I do enjoy to play "in character", or role-play. Please don;t speak for me.

We have different opinions about what is challenging and as well about what is fun to play - so we better agree to disagree.

Lysette

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Its much harder to make challenging content that is balanced for all classes and playstyles and difficult enough to require a lot of effort to master and get rewards from than to make faceroll content which only requires mindlessly repeating it hundreds of times to win the RNG lottery .

It is simply impossible to expect it to be balanced "for all playstyles" - mine is hybrid builds and I want to have a good chance to get content done "on the first try" without to die. You call it "faceroll", but that is what I expect in my playstyle. Combat is for me just an ingredient, not the main thing in the game. Exploration, crafting, enjoying the beautiful scenery, choosing which quests my character supports and which she has to refuse, and just living in the world of Tamriel - this is what it is about for me. I do not repeat things mindlessly hundreds of times, this would not be fun and I am playing the game to have fun.

I give a damn about becoming a heroine - she is an average person with a tendency to go out adventuring once in a while. But no rush with it, no stressful gameplay, basically nothing of what makes the game fun for you is in my playstyle. We cannot have both our ways, but mine is more in tune with the direction the game is taking. So I am quite happy with it.

Fallen_Ray

The problem isn't the content difficulty. It's the players. We're always on a quest to be the strongest. From a pool of millions of items someone makes a combination that overpowers anything and the rest decide to copy it, labeling it as the best build for magicka (in example).

In time players will overpower the content and will say that the game is too easy when in fact most made their builds in a way that said build can deal insane amounts of damage with just a few attacks. All for the sake of competitiveness.


Meanwhile the players who tend to wanna try their own creations and combinations will find hard challenging content and will feel rewarded upon completion because they aren't seeking to have the best dps. In fact it's those words "the best" are what ruins a game and player originality.

Just make a thread and see what sets the players are running. Sorcerers will say "Vicious Death, law of julianos, molag kena, torugs pact, willpower" regardless of the number of items in each set those are the only names you will see.

So to me the game isn't an issue, the player base is. Apologies if the excessive text hurts your eyes I do write alot.

Magdalina

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

If the black slopes had noone using them but were costing the company to maintain wouldnt it be prudent to look at changing the difficulty of the run? So more people can enjoy it? Make more money.

What makes you think no one's using them? o.O I'm using them. Several dozens people in my friendlist are using them. Several hundred people in my guilds are using them. Plenty more people I don't know are probably using them as well.

Those slopes might be less populated than other ones, true, but what's wrong with that?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Magdalina wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

If the black slopes had noone using them but were costing the company to maintain wouldnt it be prudent to look at changing the difficulty of the run? So more people can enjoy it? Make more money.

What makes you think no one's using them? o.O I'm using them. Several dozens people in my friendlist are using them. Several hundred people in my guilds are using them. Plenty more people I don't know are probably using them as well.

Those slopes might be less populated than other ones, true, but what's wrong with that?

ZOS said the reason for the change was that hardly anyone was running the dungeons they adjusted. So they wanted to make it a little bit easier so more people could finish it.

Magdalina

Fallen_Ray wrote: »

The problem isn't the content difficulty. It's the players. We're always on a quest to be the strongest. From a pool of millions of items someone makes a combination that overpowers anything and the rest decide to copy it, labeling it as the best build for magicka (in example).

In time players will overpower the content and will say that the game is too easy when in fact most made their builds in was that said build can deal insane amounts of damage with just a few attacks. All for the sake of competitiveness.


Meanwhile the players who tend to wanna try their own creations and combinations will find hard challenging content and will feel rewarded upon completion because they aren't seeking to have the best dps. In fact it's those words "the best" are what ruins a game and player originality.

Just make a thread and see what sets the players are running. Sorcerers will say "Vicious Death, law of julianos, molag kena, torugs pact, willpower" regardless of the number of items in each set those are the only names you will see.

So to me the game isn't an issue, the player base is. Apologies if the excessive text hurts your eyes I do write alot.

Tbh at this point it's not even about gear. It's simply about mechanics knowledge. People don't fail in those dungeons because they aren't running those OP builds using BiS gear and perfect skills rotations, they fail because they're running ATROCIOUS builds that make no sense(like using aoe spells for single target damage or using magicka spells for main dps on stamina build for example) and do <8k dps and/or they refuse to learn the mechanics. No gear in this game is going to save you if you just decide to stand in the red and ignore any instructions/advice given, and this is apparently where most players struggle.

And no worries, I usually write way more

Edited because I can't type evidently lol.

Lysette

Fallen_Ray wrote: »

The problem isn't the content difficulty. It's the players. We're always on a quest to be the strongest. From a pool of millions of items someone makes a combination that overpowers anything and the rest decide to copy it, labeling it as the best build for magicka (in example).

In time players will overpower the content and will say that the game is too easy when in fact most made their builds in was that said build can deal insane amounts of damage with just a few attacks. All for the sake of competitiveness.


Meanwhile the players who tend to wanna try their own creations and combinations will find hard challenging content and will feel rewarded upon completion because they aren't seeking to have the best dps. In fact it's those words "the best" are what ruins a game and player originality.

Just make a thread and see what sets the players are running. Sorcerers will say "Vicious Death, law of julianos, molag kena, torugs pact, willpower" regardless of the number of items in each set those are the only names you will see.

So to me the game isn't an issue, the player base is. Apologies if the excessive text hurts your eyes I do write alot.

You nailed it - exactly.

WalkingLegacy

I haven't done a dungeon since my first and only one at level 18ish in Auridon.

Three manned it with my level 15ish BFF and his wife's level 12. It was scaled for my level.

Dromede

Magdalina wrote: »

Fallen_Ray wrote: »

The problem isn't the content difficulty. It's the players. We're always on a quest to be the strongest. From a pool of millions of items someone makes a combination that overpowers anything and the rest decide to copy it, labeling it as the best build for magicka (in example).

In time players will overpower the content and will say that the game is too easy when in fact most made their builds in was that said build can deal insane amounts of damage with just a few attacks. All for the sake of competitiveness.


Meanwhile the players who tend to wanna try their own creations and combinations will find hard challenging content and will feel rewarded upon completion because they aren't seeking to have the best dps. In fact it's those words "the best" are what ruins a game and player originality.

Just make a thread and see what sets the players are running. Sorcerers will say "Vicious Death, law of julianos, molag kena, torugs pact, willpower" regardless of the number of items in each set those are the only names you will see.

So to me the game isn't an issue, the player base is. Apologies if the excessive text hurts your eyes I do write alot.

Tbh at this point it's not even about gear. It's simply about mechanics knowledge. People don't fail in those dungeons because they aren't running those OP builds using BiS gear and perfect skills rotations, they fail because they're running ATRCOIOUS builds that make no sense(like using aoe spells for single target damage or using magicka spells for main dps on stamina build for example) and do <8k dps and/or they refuse to learn the mechanics. No gear in this game is going to save you if you just decide to stand in the red and ignore any instructions/advice given, and this is apparently where most players struggle.

And no worries, I usually write way more

I completely agree with that. No gear will make you OP of you don't know the skills and your rotation is flawed. Also, I feel like it's silly to blame players for using the sets/skills/weapons that are given to you by the game. It's a part of the challenge to find the best combination that leads to the best results.

Also, it's not like the builds that work well are a secret -they are posted in the open for anyone to find, to copy or modify according to their playstyle.

I'd like to stress again that it's silly to blame players that they like to play competitively within the rules and using commonly obtainable items.

I've met oh-so-many players who struggle in Vwgt and Vicp and still use drop quality pots instead of tri-pot version that would fit their playstyle so much better. They have their reasons, I get that, but they should accept that decisions like that lead to consequences of not being viable for endgame content. That's just the way it is.

Magdalina

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

If the black slopes had noone using them but were costing the company to maintain wouldnt it be prudent to look at changing the difficulty of the run? So more people can enjoy it? Make more money.

What makes you think no one's using them? o.O I'm using them. Several dozens people in my friendlist are using them. Several hundred people in my guilds are using them. Plenty more people I don't know are probably using them as well.

Those slopes might be less populated than other ones, true, but what's wrong with that?

ZOS said the reason for the change was that hardly anyone was running the dungeons they adjusted. So they wanted to make it a little bit easier so more people could finish it.

I'm highly sceptical of ZOS figures and even more sceptical of their "solution".
Do they know people farm WGT first boss for trophies because they're lazy? Or did they take all those hundreds of "unfinished" runs into account as well? Also, what was that about "abandoned quests"? I abandon pledges all the time because I'm too lazy to run them all. Does that contribute to the nerf?o.O
Also if taking all of that into account they still find completion rates too low, what is it that makes them think the issue lies with dungeons' difficulty?
In my experience in 90% of cases the issue lies with groups' total lack of knowledge of how to play. And I don't mean it in a belittling way at all but you just look at some people and it's clear they've never actually thought about their build beyond "this skill looks cool so I'll just use it" and don't realize not blocking some attacks will make you die sometimes, as will not interrupting some others. Why? Because all the content is already too easy. It doesn't incentivize them to wonder about their build if spamming impulse for everything, including single target encounters, never blocking or interruptiong and standing in red half the time, is enough to get them through Wayrest Sewers with ease. It's amazing just how many players are just...flatout ignoring all the game cues even after being told about them time and again. No blocking, no dodging, no interrupting, no stepping out of red, it's like those things don't even exist.

This issue isn't going to go away if they nerf the last few challenging dungeons. It'll get worse because those people will likely still wipe and come cry for more nerfs, and so on until the content is nerfed enough to where all the mobs commit suicide 10 seconds after the fight starts.

oibam

add for all dungeons a nightmare competitive mode (like 250% hp buff for all mobs):

all time leaderboard for each dungeon
special rewards: none

martinhpb16_ESO

Volkodav wrote: »

At some point you just have to get over the idea that the content isnt working for you.The top end will always be limited because ZOS wont just keep making things harder and harder to suit some people,while leaving out the majority of people who arent able to do it.
They want to keep their players from leaving because it is too hard for them.Most people arent into all that stuff about the best gear,best stats,and higher and higher challenges.Some are,but not the majority.

The issue is that the content is getting incrementally easier with every DLC, new content is easier than previous content, previous content gets nerfed.

This game used to have a good balance of difficulty, easy and challenging content.

I agree with you about the "top end" but the problem is that the difficulty level is getting to the lower tiers of the pyramid and is nowhere near the top end. Your top-end theory stands to a point but there comes a point where you cant just keep making things easier and still apply that theory.

Also we have all these incentives for progression, CP, sets, skill development - all the staples of an MMO but less and less game to enact them.

Tanks and healer roles are becoming defunct. New players have no reason to apply and learn game combat mechanics beyond dd.

I disagree with you about the top end are the only ones interested in gear and stats. Also no-one is clamoring for higher and higher challenges. People are complaining about the opposite - content nerfing and new content where the difficulty bar is getting lower and lower.

Open world content never used to be this easy, but it is getting easier and easier.

martinhpb16_ESO

Magdalina wrote: »

To be honest I'm not even such a hardcore player. I mean it's my first MMO. But I guess in the ongoing casual-hardcore division I fit in the hardcore club. The biggest fun I've had in this game was figuring stuff out with my friends. Dying repeatedly, dozens, hundreds of times, experimenting with different skills/strategies in order to overcome the challenge...then figuring the basics out and just working on perfecting it and getting better as a team. Had that in 1.5, I'm not sure if you were playing then but those dungeons felt about right. None of them were impossible but NO ONE would call Spindle or BC easy. You could wipe even with a good team if you weren't paying attention. And that felt...right. Was actually challenging and fun.

I've also had that while 2 manning some of those dungeons for the first time, but now not even that is challenging:/

^^ This.

It makes the game relevant.

martinhpb16_ESO

Lysette wrote: »

Just coming back from a quick nap - you guys just do not want to believe it, because it is not what you want to hear. But this is what Mr. Firor said lately in an interview.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/03/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview-making-games-of-this-type-is-really-really-hard-5730186/?hootPostID=34f57f59cdb3f4770edfc2f3a7b9940e

quote 1:

To answer your question about comparing ESO to other MMOs: ESO is not really a traditional MMO, so we don’t use that term much around the office – and it is this distinction that separates it from other games. If you want to play it solo, like you did with other Elder Scrolls games, you can do that. If you want to play it super-grindy with dungeons, Trials, and group bosses as the core of you experience, you can join up with others and do that too.

quote 2:

Again, we’re not really a traditional MMO, we are much more of a hybrid, kind of like an ‘online RPG’. The term MMO is freighted with a lot of pre-conceived notions, most of which are outdated and obsolete.

quote 3:

Our bigger challenge has been to educate players that we are not a traditional 2004-style MMO and much more an expansive online Elder Scrolls RPG.


So you can believe it now or not, but ignorance does not change the facts - I am heading back to bed now.

Well if that is the case where is the non-MMO content that even beings to equal the difficulty level of a typical RPG? If RPG's released with this level of difficulty they would fail.

Also I would really like to know what content there is in this game that is RPG and not MMO? Personally I havent seen anything that I haven't seen in an MMO.

Companies use blurb for marketing. ES games have traditionally been RPG games, so there is a whole untapped market of players who are ES players and not MMO players. Of course they will say that, but it doesnt make it true.

martinhpb16_ESO

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

If the black slopes had noone using them but were costing the company to maintain wouldnt it be prudent to look at changing the difficulty of the run? So more people can enjoy it? Make more money.

The only thing is that your analogy doesn't exist. The fact is that people do ski red and black, they do game challenging, difficult, easy, immersive etc content.

And when you have a resort with no blacks and no reds you don't get many skiers. I ski as well as game.

And who ever heard of a resort deciding to turn all their black and red slopes into blue ones?

Resorts with only blue and greens tend to be the lower altitude, cheaper ones. Is that what we want? No heights to aspire too, nothing to dip the tips of our skis and boards onto that gives us a thrill, that tests our imagination, that makes us aspire to improve our technique and go into that shop and upgrade our gear.

There is always the need for speed, not all of us are happy with cruising a blue - all of the time.

Lets not be under any illusions we are talking about the removal of red slopes too in terms of open world content and 4 player dungeons in ESO. We shoudl not be in a situation where people are doing 4 man dungeons solo, which is happening right now.

x5ofspadez

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

You could try to, you know, reset all your Champion points and not spend a single one. Just leave them open without allocating a single one.

I actually did that. I started a new account on PC. after playing on xbox since launch there. I bought the game for PC when it released. played a bit, but never really got invested til xbox launched. I wanted to make a character that was innately decent, but try to fulfill a different role than usual.

So I rolled a Breton Nightblade, specifically for healing. And honestly having run the dungeons dozens of times, minimum, running a healing NB through all of these Vet Dungeons has been a walk in the park. The only one that was even slightly difficult to do was vCoA because of the Ash Titan and how spread out the DPS needed to be. But even then it was two wipes and then burned. I was Vet 4 at the time with 80ish CP. running it on V16 not scaled.

I love the DPS/HPS counters too. turned out during Skoria at Vet 4, I could put out about 12k DPS and 14k HPS. which isnt fantastic but well above average for my level. So I guess Im wondering is it because I know the content so well, all the tricks, and mechanics, or is that the content has gotten so easy its faceroll?

Grunim

Lysette wrote: »

ESO is more made for role players and those hate to die at all.

How can you possibly speak for roleplayers with such a statement?

There are so many styles of roleplay and I remember many RP enforced MUDs where you were required to include weaknesses for your character which could frequently lead to extra deaths. There was another MUD I loved where if you displeased your deity they could curse you and make some of your skills and spells no longer function and players and mobs could have a field day with you when that happened!

Personally, I don't care if I die in PvE or PvP in this game as long as it isn't excessive. Unlike some other games I played, death doesn't have long lasting repercussions, I don't lose all my gear, there are no real death penalties for the vast majority of content. As long as I'm having fun that's what matters to me. I tend to avoid grouping with players who gets upset with a death so I avoid leaderboard PvE content.

Death has long been a part of MMORPGs and their MUD predecessors.

martinhpb16_ESO

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Remember too challenge is subjective. What is challenging for you might not be for other people and vice versa. I think if you are looking for a hardcore raiding/PVE game with stuff only a very small percentage even bother trying much less completing this isnt your game.

I like how everyone says things are so easy now but not for me apparently. I go try my first trial and died so much all my gear broke lol. So ya its challenging to me heh.

We all do. would you prefer if you went into your first trial and just did it first time, no effort, no coordination, no theory, no teamwork, no rotation, no thought?

x5ofspadez

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Well, if they toughen it up, others will ask why that same content is so hard...
One cannot please all.

I understand this. i really do. I just wish that when they do nerf some content they would add new content to the game that makes up for the difficulty. I have made a couple MoL runs so far, but in general its hard to find a group of 12 on xbox that really wants to take the time to do the vet mode. Which is the more disappointing part.

In this thread I wasn't intending to bash anyone for not being able to complete content that is currently in the game because of elitism or anything of that matter. I just find it perplexing that they would nerf content without adding new content to make up for it.

play naked? done it.
play with no cp? done it.
played in v12 gear/no CP? done it.

It really doesnt make a difference.

I wont be leaving the game or anything like that. I will just be more concerned with PvP, than PvE for the foreseeable future. Which is rather unlike me.

cyclonus11

Lysette wrote: »

ESO is more made for role players and those hate to die at all.

I enjoy roleplay, but sometimes I look down a cliff at my destination and I'm like "I don't wanna wander around looking for a way down" so I SUICIDAL SWAN DIVE to my destination.

maboleth

Fallen_Ray wrote: »

Sorcerers will say "Vicious Death, law of julianos, molag kena, torugs pact, willpower" regardless of the number of items in each set those are the only names you will see.

Well, I won't. :P Seducer & Twilight's embrace all the way! (:

Grunim

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

ESO is more made for role players and those hate to die at all.

I enjoy roleplay, but sometimes I look down a cliff at my destination and I'm like "I don't wanna wander around looking for a way down" so I SUICIDAL SWAN DIVE to my destination.

I jump off cliffs too, but usually because I'm roll-playing to reach that destination most efficiently or because I'm in Cyro and my group needs me to blood port. But I could also role-play that I'm delusional and believe I can spout wings and fly.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

If the black slopes had noone using them but were costing the company to maintain wouldnt it be prudent to look at changing the difficulty of the run? So more people can enjoy it? Make more money.

The only thing is that your analogy doesn't exist. The fact is that people do ski red and black, they do game challenging, difficult, easy, immersive etc content.

And when you have a resort with no blacks and no reds you don't get many skiers. I ski as well as game.

And who ever heard of a resort deciding to turn all their black and red slopes into blue ones?

Resorts with only blue and greens tend to be the lower altitude, cheaper ones. Is that what we want? No heights to aspire too, nothing to dip the tips of our skis and boards onto that gives us a thrill, that tests our imagination, that makes us aspire to improve our technique and go into that shop and upgrade our gear.

There is always the need for speed, not all of us are happy with cruising a blue - all of the time.

Lets not be under any illusions we are talking about the removal of red slopes too in terms of open world content and 4 player dungeons in ESO. We shoudl not be in a situation where people are doing 4 man dungeons solo, which is happening right now.

My analogy does hit because its straight from ZOS mouth. They are adjusting slightly the difficulty due to the fact not very many people bother with it. They spend money on this stuff so people will use it. How do I justify making another hard instance when the one I already made gets little use? Its hard to get approval in a budget for something like that. So they lowered the difficulty to make it more accessible. I believe they knew this would not please everyone but it will please more than it displeases it seems.

Lysette

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Just coming back from a quick nap - you guys just do not want to believe it, because it is not what you want to hear. But this is what Mr. Firor said lately in an interview.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/03/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview-making-games-of-this-type-is-really-really-hard-5730186/?hootPostID=34f57f59cdb3f4770edfc2f3a7b9940e

quote 1:

To answer your question about comparing ESO to other MMOs: ESO is not really a traditional MMO, so we don’t use that term much around the office – and it is this distinction that separates it from other games. If you want to play it solo, like you did with other Elder Scrolls games, you can do that. If you want to play it super-grindy with dungeons, Trials, and group bosses as the core of you experience, you can join up with others and do that too.

quote 2:

Again, we’re not really a traditional MMO, we are much more of a hybrid, kind of like an ‘online RPG’. The term MMO is freighted with a lot of pre-conceived notions, most of which are outdated and obsolete.

quote 3:

Our bigger challenge has been to educate players that we are not a traditional 2004-style MMO and much more an expansive online Elder Scrolls RPG.


So you can believe it now or not, but ignorance does not change the facts - I am heading back to bed now.

Well if that is the case where is the non-MMO content that even beings to equal the difficulty level of a typical RPG? If RPG's released with this level of difficulty they would fail.

Also I would really like to know what content there is in this game that is RPG and not MMO? Personally I havent seen anything that I haven't seen in an MMO.

Companies use blurb for marketing. ES games have traditionally been RPG games, so there is a whole untapped market of players who are ES players and not MMO players. Of course they will say that, but it doesnt make it true.

Just read the article, which I posted, in full and you will see how Mr. Firor sees these things. You will find, that he thinks, that MMO in a traditional sense is mostly outdated and obsolete, and he is right with it, the old way to play MMOs is on decline. He further says, that MMO now refers to a technology and no longer to a genre - and he is right with that too, because there are a lot of MMOs out there meanwhile, which do not have traditional MMO content - second life for example.

But anyway, you can read it yourself.

nimander99

BECAUSE OP, YOU ARE AMAZING!!!

martinhpb16_ESO

Lysette wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Just coming back from a quick nap - you guys just do not want to believe it, because it is not what you want to hear. But this is what Mr. Firor said lately in an interview.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/03/03/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview-making-games-of-this-type-is-really-really-hard-5730186/?hootPostID=34f57f59cdb3f4770edfc2f3a7b9940e

quote 1:

To answer your question about comparing ESO to other MMOs: ESO is not really a traditional MMO, so we don’t use that term much around the office – and it is this distinction that separates it from other games. If you want to play it solo, like you did with other Elder Scrolls games, you can do that. If you want to play it super-grindy with dungeons, Trials, and group bosses as the core of you experience, you can join up with others and do that too.

quote 2:

Again, we’re not really a traditional MMO, we are much more of a hybrid, kind of like an ‘online RPG’. The term MMO is freighted with a lot of pre-conceived notions, most of which are outdated and obsolete.

quote 3:

Our bigger challenge has been to educate players that we are not a traditional 2004-style MMO and much more an expansive online Elder Scrolls RPG.


So you can believe it now or not, but ignorance does not change the facts - I am heading back to bed now.

Well if that is the case where is the non-MMO content that even beings to equal the difficulty level of a typical RPG? If RPG's released with this level of difficulty they would fail.

Also I would really like to know what content there is in this game that is RPG and not MMO? Personally I havent seen anything that I haven't seen in an MMO.

Companies use blurb for marketing. ES games have traditionally been RPG games, so there is a whole untapped market of players who are ES players and not MMO players. Of course they will say that, but it doesnt make it true.

Just read the article, which I posted, in full and you will see how Mr. Firor sees these things. You will find, that he thinks, that MMO in a traditional sense is mostly outdated and obsolete, and he is right with it, the old way to play MMOs is on decline. He further says, that MMO now refers to a technology and no longer to a genre - and he is right with that too, because there are a lot of MMOs out there meanwhile, which do not have traditional MMO content - second life for example.

But anyway, you can read it yourself.

hi there. Well i read it and tbh he doesnt say much. He does say:

"The term MMO is freighted with a lot of pre-conceived notions, most of which are outdated and obsolete."

But he doesn't go to explain what he means by this or give any examples as to why ESO is hybrid or different. And again I can see nothing in ESO that is different from other MMOs. And what preconceived notions are obsolete?

Lets not forget that MMo is short for MMORPG and sorry to disagree again but Second Life is rarely considered as an MMO.

What he goes on to say is that there are so many types of massive online games now that fall into all sorts of category that the term MMO is applied to games of a certain type, WOW, Rift, ESO etc. Well no news there.