Keep in mind that

CreepyPahuska wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

P.S. Nobody wants to do fully charged heavy attacks. Nobody. They aren't fun. Nobody.

Thanks for talking in the name of everybody, but I must protest. I'm a sorc tank, and my stamina management comes entirely from fully charged heavy attacks. And I love it.

Cheers

Sorry!

Just did some tests of tanking with my DK on PTS.

For one test I basically I walked up Nomeg Hyril in Bangkorai and smacked him in the face and held down block. I went for 316 seconds holding block the entire time and eventually the boss died of my reposte and Pierce Armor. On live I would need to weave in heavy attacks to do the same so for basic single boss tanking I think we are better than live. If I stepped out of the "puddles" and side stepped the "cones" I could keep my stamina up even easier. I also typically pop a few Igneous Shields to add the 5% stamina from helping hands.

Speaking of heavy attacks did anyone forget to look at the new "Rapid Mending" passive. Increase Healing by 8% for 5 pieces (vs 7% with 7 pieces of heavy armor on live) and the new buff of +50% more stamina restored with heavy attacks. I know some tanks don't like having to weave heavy attacks, but as a heavy attack weaver I am happy about that change.

I will say that during trash pulls and fights with lots of adds you can get your stamina chewed up really fast, but I don't block most of their attacks anyway. With the buff to Harness Magicka I may just stack it with Igneous and forget about blocking most things altogether.

In general so far I've found that Heavy Armor and tanking is getting a buff. As much as I would rather have Bracing than the new Wrath passive (I guess they had to leave heavy armor with one useless passive) if they left Bracing as it was then it would be OP with all the other changes to passives and the change to the Sturdy trait. You could probably get block cost close to zero and the new Constitution Passive which gives 930 Magic and Stamina every 4 seconds with 5 pieces of heavy (WTB Black Rose Jewelry ) would take care of the rest.

On a side note, I am *not* going to acquire any new gear. Tempering Alloy is way too expensive and the block cost reduction doesn't seem worth it for Sturdy. Putting the 3 "Shield Play" enchants on your jewelry seems like a better option to me and should give plenty of cost reduction along with 75 points in "Block Expertise" for 20% block cost reduction. Lets also not forget that "Fortress" also lowers block cost another 30%.

Anyway that is my 2 cents to the discussion.

From what I've seen so far on the PTS, the changes, while not ideal, are not bad. Tanks keep playing chicken little everytime there is a major change. I would much rather keep bracing but games change and evolve. You can either change with them or find a game that makes you happy.

WTB AOE TAUNT PLZ!!!!

birch44 wrote: »

From what I've seen so far on the PTS, the changes, while not ideal, are not bad. Tanks keep playing chicken little everytime there is a major change. I would much rather keep bracing but games change and evolve. You can either change with them or find a game that makes you happy.

WTB AOE TAUNT PLZ!!!!

We have made the game better via feedback before and will continue to.

"- The combination of the Fortress and Bracing passive effects are something that I appreciate. I think that development really carefully considered block cost mitigation during its initial creation. It is frustrating that diminished returns severely affects this stat, but these two passives, and especially so in tandem, are what really make sword and board or heavy armor valuable"

@Wrobel @ZOS_Finn , I wrote those words during last February as part of the tanking feedback thread where @ZOS_Finn asked for tanking feedback. Im not just making up outrage over this nerf without reason and if my feedback had been more carefully considered, then players may be happy about ESO and their role rather than disgruntled.

SirSilverMask wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Just did some tests of tanking with my DK on PTS.

For one test I basically I walked up Nomeg Hyril in Bangkorai and smacked him in the face and held down block. I went for 316 seconds holding block the entire time and eventually the boss died of my reposte and Pierce Armor. On live I would need to weave in heavy attacks to do the same so for basic single boss tanking I think we are better than live. If I stepped out of the "puddles" and side stepped the "cones" I could keep my stamina up even easier. I also typically pop a few Igneous Shields to add the 5% stamina from helping hands.

Speaking of heavy attacks did anyone forget to look at the new "Rapid Mending" passive. Increase Healing by 8% for 5 pieces (vs 7% with 7 pieces of heavy armor on live) and the new buff of +50% more stamina restored with heavy attacks. I know some tanks don't like having to weave heavy attacks, but as a heavy attack weaver I am happy about that change.

I will say that during trash pulls and fights with lots of adds you can get your stamina chewed up really fast, but I don't block most of their attacks anyway. With the buff to Harness Magicka I may just stack it with Igneous and forget about blocking most things altogether.

In general so far I've found that Heavy Armor and tanking is getting a buff. As much as I would rather have Bracing than the new Wrath passive (I guess they had to leave heavy armor with one useless passive) if they left Bracing as it was then it would be OP with all the other changes to passives and the change to the Sturdy trait. You could probably get block cost close to zero and the new Constitution Passive which gives 930 Magic and Stamina every 4 seconds with 5 pieces of heavy (WTB Black Rose Jewelry ) would take care of the rest.

On a side note, I am *not* going to acquire any new gear. Tempering Alloy is way too expensive and the block cost reduction doesn't seem worth it for Sturdy. Putting the 3 "Shield Play" enchants on your jewelry seems like a better option to me and should give plenty of cost reduction along with 75 points in "Block Expertise" for 20% block cost reduction. Lets also not forget that "Fortress" also lowers block cost another 30%.

Anyway that is my 2 cents to the discussion.

The thread has already pointed out that tanking against a single enemy has been buffed. However, the main focus of the problem with the change, which everyone seems to agree on is the fact that blocking in trials where you need to aggro the mobs and block the damage has been handicapped. That is beside the point that tanks aren't really necessary anywhere else in the game so the new 4 man content needs to be developed which actually requires coordination and a real tank. ZOS is going down a slope of nerfing content and tanks, rather then looking to provide new and challenging content especially for 4 man teams.

I agree about the 4 man dungeons. There are only a few fights left that require a tank.

In most trials fights the tank generally taunts and blocks one main Boss and potentially a priority "flag bearing" add. The SO trial with all the troll pulls could probably get rough if you held down block the whole time, but that is a problem in live too. If you just hold down block then the 20% that bracing gives you won't keep you from running out of stamina. You still have to do other things to keep stamina in the bar.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Just did some tests of tanking with my DK on PTS.

For one test I basically I walked up Nomeg Hyril in Bangkorai and smacked him in the face and held down block. I went for 316 seconds holding block the entire time and eventually the boss died of my reposte and Pierce Armor. On live I would need to weave in heavy attacks to do the same so for basic single boss tanking I think we are better than live. If I stepped out of the "puddles" and side stepped the "cones" I could keep my stamina up even easier. I also typically pop a few Igneous Shields to add the 5% stamina from helping hands.

Speaking of heavy attacks did anyone forget to look at the new "Rapid Mending" passive. Increase Healing by 8% for 5 pieces (vs 7% with 7 pieces of heavy armor on live) and the new buff of +50% more stamina restored with heavy attacks. I know some tanks don't like having to weave heavy attacks, but as a heavy attack weaver I am happy about that change.

I will say that during trash pulls and fights with lots of adds you can get your stamina chewed up really fast, but I don't block most of their attacks anyway. With the buff to Harness Magicka I may just stack it with Igneous and forget about blocking most things altogether.

In general so far I've found that Heavy Armor and tanking is getting a buff. As much as I would rather have Bracing than the new Wrath passive (I guess they had to leave heavy armor with one useless passive) if they left Bracing as it was then it would be OP with all the other changes to passives and the change to the Sturdy trait. You could probably get block cost close to zero and the new Constitution Passive which gives 930 Magic and Stamina every 4 seconds with 5 pieces of heavy (WTB Black Rose Jewelry ) would take care of the rest.

On a side note, I am *not* going to acquire any new gear. Tempering Alloy is way too expensive and the block cost reduction doesn't seem worth it for Sturdy. Putting the 3 "Shield Play" enchants on your jewelry seems like a better option to me and should give plenty of cost reduction along with 75 points in "Block Expertise" for 20% block cost reduction. Lets also not forget that "Fortress" also lowers block cost another 30%.

Anyway that is my 2 cents to the discussion.

Thank you for testing againt Nomeg Hyril. I wonder if we can still tank the dreaded roving pyre of reapers march.

The idea was to get a feel for resource management, and he worked as well as anything with a mix of AoE puddles and heavy attacks to see if I could maintain my stamina. Plus he was close to a wayshrine. Sorry he wasn't impressive enough...

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I know that so many of you have different ideas about tanking, but let me still ask the following question. Do tanks really need to get nerfed more?

I see that I have been summoned to this thread 37 times...

Enjoy the wall of text below.

Took me about an hour to read through all 12 pages. Here are my thoughts when I read all the numerous changes to tanking/HA, with the perspective from both PvE and PvP:

• It is clear that none of the new sets would be useful for tanking. I thought for a second about using the Harbinger set for PvP tanking (definitely not PvE), but 3% return damage on no duration attacks (considering half the attacks in game are considered "duration" attacks...) is completely negligible.
• The overall cost increase due to the removal of veteran ranks is another unfortunate outcome that I felt was preventable, but I do not consider this to be a nerf to any particular playstyle, as it is universal.
• Slightly unrelated, but poisons will make tanking in PvP absolutely miserable as they combine effects such as immobilization and sustain reduction, which will most substantially affect the "take a beating" PvP tank playstyle more than the slippery folk.
• I saw Defending weapon trait and still was meh about it. Physical and Spell Resistances feel valuable to me up to a certain point, and a flat value is a nice buff (more so to non-heavy armor wearers...).
• I saw the new Decisive trait and got excited for my DK Tava's ultimate generation tank, but then saw that there is an RNG component to receive only 1 extra ultimate whenever I obtain ultimate. I need to do the math on it, but other traits like sharpened have been shown to have more direct benefits.
• Nirnhoned and Reinforced seem very similar, I don't quite get why they're pushing them to be basically mirrors over time?
• I saw Sturdy and initially thought it would be OP. Then I saw that Bracing was removed and realized that this change was basically taking away a passive benefit and putting it somewhere where I would have to make sacrifices (lose Impenetrable for PvP, Divines for PvE) to obtain block cost reduction.
• I like the change to Constitution, as I think it puts resource management of heavy armor DPS builds for PvP to be on par with the other armor types. I would personally prefer a lower number alongside a reduced cooldown per hit taken.
• The removal of Bracing , as this topic is mainly focused on, I see as a bad move personally. The argument seems to have been made that one should simply switch to sturdy, and then the Sturdy+Constitution ends up being good enough. I would counter that the change to Wrath removes the core component of even using heavy armor for its passives. In the end, an armor type is primarily chosen for its passives, and this was by far the most valuable one.
• I think Juggernaut buff is fair, considering it makes it similar to other armor type passives.
• I don't care too much for the Rapid Mending buff. It is a slight increase to healing received which I often find negligible, and I honestly hate having to use heavy attacks anyway (seems to be a popular opinion amongst tanks).

Overall, I think some things were received well and others were not. At the moment, it sounds like running a light/medium armor tank with sturdy will be better than a heavy armor sturdy tank, which I find offensive.

Here are some suggested change ideas, that I'm sure will be thrown under the bus and curb stomped. Please understand that the values may not be balanced!

• Many seem to enjoy the new passive Wrath, as it adds a new component to heavy armor in PvP. I also enjoy it, but the problem is that it replaces the most enjoyed passive in the tree, Bracing. Thus, I would suggest that Wrath replaces something less loved, like the health recovery component of Constitution, or even Resolve, Rapid Mending, etc. I would take a hit to those other passives to retain Bracing (even if it got nerfed to 10% or something).
• I clearly understand that having Bracing, Champion Points, Enchants, and the new Sturdy would be too strong in most cases. I think Sturdy would be better suited to give something like flat damage resistance (who wouldn't love 1% damage resist?), resistance to CC (maybe a chance to give immovability would be neat!), or damage return (I don't know!!). After all, sturdy is defined as "strongly and solidly built."
• Many are happy with the Constitution buff, citing the increased resource gain. I think this is awesome as well. I would potentially suggest that the base resource return gets lowered and each additional (non-DoT) hit within 4 seconds reduces the cooldown. EG: You get hit once, and you receive 750 resources and start the 4s CD. If you get hit again, the CD drops by .5 seconds. It would need balancing but could be nice to tank larger groups of enemies!
• Introduce/buff more sets that benefit tanking. I know that tanking is not for everyone, but people used to (and still do) love using sets that provide unique bonuses fit for a tank role. Examples include Tava's Favor, Fasalla's, the old Twin Sisters pre-nerf, Footman, Bloodspawn, Hist Bark, etc. I would love a version of Glorious Defender (true to my namesake!) for PvP if I could have a 20% chance to dodge the next attack (a la shuffle...), an updated Akatosh Blessed Armor (un-nerfed...), Bastion of the Heartland for PvP, etc.

Just my 25c! Rip me apart

As I am currently stuck behind a "Content Write Failed" error that prevents me from even downloading the PTS, I cannot provide numbers or builds, but simply provide insight regarding tanking in general and how I perceive the changes to be heading for this current PTS patch. I will say that my days of tanking endgame trials has diminished, as I mostly just tank pledges on subpar builds for the challenge in PvE, and play my tanky mDK for the past few patches where it was considered absolutely inviable and all others fled to their magicka sorcerers.

I just don't understand why they have to change everything so drastically with each patch. People will overcome and adapt. Spend a 1,000,000 gold on mats to make new gear with Sturdy Trait mixed in. Maybe throw another reduced block cost enchant on (if they weren't using 3 already). And end up in the same ballpark as before the patch.

And the whole reason is so that Heavy Armor users can get 200 extra damage if they get hit 10 times within 6 second duration of eachother... hardly a gamechanger.

If I am a HA user and I want 200 damage, I'll throw a Damage Glyph on my jewelry and switch to sharpened trait.... This situation dependent damage will still not make up for the lost Crit %, Weapon Damage, Spell penetration, and resource management (perhaps the Constitution change will make this somewhat more even but you still lack the reduced cost) that light and medium armor offer in PVP.

If the idea was to balance HA for PVP they should have revised Sharpened/Nirnhoned traits from a % to a flat value. Granted they did do this, but it is buffed beyond what it was. At the 33,150 armor cap Sharpened ignores 4641 armor. Now its like 5.1k. I guess at least it affects all armor weights equally. Or they could make Impenetrable Trait scale more efficiently with Heavy Armor.

Either way the change just seems more pointless/annoying than anything else

hrothbern wrote: »

For Tanks that are worried that they run into Stamina issues

In the bigger picture of the DB DLC Poisons were added, and the following Poison is particulary useful for Magicka and Stamina regain.

It procs from Light Attacks. But I do not have a precise proc chance. I also tested whether it procs from Pierce Armor, and it does, but very, very irreliable (so a low chance).
You can see in the CLS log that the tooltip values of the Poison do indeed also appear in CLS.
So... if you are low in either Stamina or Magicka you can for both get around 3k with a LA, and the 4k Heal is not bad too.
No real need for a risky Heavy Attack

In the screenshot shown, there is no Stamina restore, but that does function as well. So normally in combat you get all three.
You can BTW do different Poisons on the two Weapon bars.



For people that are not yet well informed about Poisons.
Every time you make "a" Poison, you get 16 flasks.

I would like to test the difference between this and pure absorb stamina enchant. This also gives Magicka and health which is great

laced wrote: »

All this talkabout trials is great, but until you get attacked by a swarm of people in pvp you dont understand how awful this change really is. Not only will I lose my stamina much quicker due to bracing being scrapped and cost of blocking being increased, but I will no longer have my impen traits on my armor due to having to replace them with sturdy, meaning i will take more damage due to crits, and run out of stamina faster.

Although PvE and PvP are both very important to me PvP will always be my primary love and is my first concern over this change. I expect the same thing to occur for me.
________________
If people don't know what a tanking role is in PvP I will explain it. PvP tanking is not walking around holding block while casting the occasional skill, that is leaching. You don't draw aggro by permablocking. PvP tanking means being the first person to jump into an enemy raid to draw their fire, debuff (maim)them, CC, threaten and harass their weak and their healers so that the rest of the raid can safely enter without being nuked at the front. You have to build your threat manually. At least in my case I also provide a forward heal point for the rest of the raid through blessing of restoration and igneous mending. I don't permablock but I do block for short periods of time to catch up to the damage I am taking and keep from dying to radiant destruction which is painted on me 100% of the time.

PvP tanking does play an important role if used with the rest of your faction in mind. Without it you have these pew pew stand offs where no one wants to push because as soon as they become noticeable in the herd they are targeted and killed. So they sit on either side killing the random person and rezing at a tent. The only way it ends is either a surprise ball flank or a PvP tank goes in and draws the fire long enough for their faction to realize and make the push.

Part of succeeding in that role is being able to block for short periods of time to heal back up and still have enough stamina to break free from the CC that will occur every 5 seconds. PvP raids don't hit like raid mobs, they animation cancel and they use rotations. You will take far more hits per second than a PvE raid. Without that heavy armor block reduction your stamina will get nuked at once the moment you block leaving you without enough stamina to break CC. If you can't break CC you can't heal and you die. Of course you could add the block reduction, but not without losing mitigation or crit defense. To successfully PvP tank you need to live for at least 15 seconds in the middle of a raid on your own. That is about how long it takes for a guild to notice the opening and charge, or the scattered pugs to realize they can push.

I can last for 15-20 seconds on average in the middle of an enemy raid without permablocking now, but without that bracing passive I don't expect to last longer than 10 seconds to any competent raid because periodic blocking is essential to staying on top of the damage you are taking. It is a delicate balance between doing enough damage to be identified as a threat and living long enough to get your faction in safely. I feel that balance is seriously hindered by decoupling blocking from heavy armor. I can survive this with the blocking reduction trait, but it shouldn't be this way. I should have the option to pick my traits to suit my tanking build, not pick my traits to become a tank.

So the change was made to get rid of bracing and replace it with wrath to help balance heavy armor and make it more viable so people can play how they want.
Do you think that with the new changes anyone currently using light or medium armor is actually going to switch to Heavy Armor?
Additionally, do these changes encourage anyone to start learning how to tank the hardest content in the game? Or tank in general?